![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 95. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on April 17, 2011, at 15:55:41
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 17, 2011, at 14:08:50
>but instead of trying to convince you,im just >going continue thinking about how im going to >kill myself. and if i cant get myself better by >the end oof this summer.. im not going to be >here on this earth anymore.
What the f*ck are you expecting us to say to you here?? Yes, mirapex caused irreversable damage to your brain, from which you will never recover, therefore your only option is to kill yourself.
I'm not trying to defend psychiatry, I think they push a lot of crap, I just don't believe that mirapex has damaged your brain. It may have precipitated a turn into worse depression. Your current state sounds very much like **psychotic depression**. Ever consider the possiblity that mirapex was not the right medication for you? Dopaminergics are not the magic pleasure chemicals. Parnate is a strong dopaminergic but it made my depression much worse!! Yes, I took a major turn for the worse on parnate!! Are you listeneing to what I am saying?? To the point I just wanted to sit and stare at the wall for days on end. It induced a very dark mood. How could a dopaminergic do that?? Its cause it wasn't the right medication for me. It took a long time to recover from the chemical shift that parnate induced.
Dude, I'm not saying that mirapex didn't make you worse, I'm saying that it didn't damage your brain, theres a difference.
>ive gotten BS from my doctors just like ive >gotten from you. they just say "medicine doesnt >do that" or "you're making it up in your head" >or "i cant help you" thats all ive heard and it >makesme pretty hopeless.thanks but no thanks >linkadge.
Do whatever you want to do, I really don't care.
You can sit around blaming psychiatrists, and running your thoughts in loops, bla bla, my brain is damaged, bla bla psychiatrists don't understand. What do you expect us to say, other than what has been said? When you're so hard pressed on believing one single possiblity you're not going to get anywhere.Have you taken St. John' Wort?
If you're not open to hearing anything but what you want to hear, then you've answered your question before you came.
Linkadge
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 17, 2011, at 16:16:55
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 17, 2011, at 14:20:18
>just wanted to comeon this site and maybe find >an anser instead of being told immaking it up in >my head again.
Who said you're making it up???
I believe that what you're experiencing is very real and very painful. But sometimes people come to the wrong conclusions about what exactly is the source of their suffering.
When my uncle was severely depressed, he thought he had committed the unforgivable sin. He felt so sh*tty that this was the only possible explaination his mind could come up with. Did I ever believe he was making it up? No I fully knew that he felt like hell, but I also believed he was misattributing the wrong thing for his suffering.
I know for a fact that medications *can* make certain states worse, but there is no evidence that antidepressants irriversably damamge the brain. This has only been shown with high dose stimulants.
Look the only evidence you are presenting us with here is the fact that you took mirapex and you started feeling worse, and you have been feeling worse since.
Well yes, mirapex could make depression worse, this side effect has been occasonally noted in people with parkinsons. Its not ususal, but not impossible.
Somtimes a drug can put somebody into a bad funk that is hard to get out of. Sometimes drugs can simply push the affective state further into the negative trajectory in which it was headed.
However, unless you have seen your own brain tissue under a microscope, there is no way to conclude that your brain is irriversably damaged.
Depression causes suicide. If you can't see that you're still depressed, than nobody can help you.
Depression causes low BDNF, low BDNF causes low trk-b activation. The reduced trk-b activation reduces P11 expression in the neucleus accumbens. This reduces the surface expression of 5-ht1b receptors in the neucleus accumbens. The reduced 5-ht1b receptors causes a dramatic reduction in the release of dopamine in the NAC. This causes anhedonia.
You need to boost your BDNF levels.
Anhedonia is the ***CORE*** smptom of depression. Plain and simple. Anhedonia lasting more than 2 weeks is sufficiant to diagnose major depressive disorder.
Don't know what you want to hear.
Relavant Studies:Mirapex protects against neurotoxicity to dopamienrgic neurons in the brain
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15473989
Mirapex protects against loss of tyrosine hydroxylase from lactacystin toxicity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18555604
Mirapex induces trophic effects on mesencephalic dopamine neurons.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16307585
Another study shows mirapex's neuroprotective effect similar to potent antioxidants:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10087005
Mirapex protects against l-dopa induced neurotoxicity:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9203083
Another study suggesting the trophic action of mirapex on dopaminergic neurons:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9593863
Go get more effective treatment for your depression.
Linkadge
Posted by floatingbridge on April 17, 2011, at 16:41:51
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by linkadge on April 17, 2011, at 16:16:55
Link,
Some good reading. Thanks. Never thanked you for the link to that bipolar/depression blog site awhile back. Very useful reading for me.
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on April 17, 2011, at 16:59:15
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 17, 2011, at 14:20:18
Hey poser, I don't really think anyone has said it's in your head. Most of us have been on the merry-go-round more than once.
What would you like to ask? And what do you need to know? You are very welcome here.
Your distress is real. I don't think anyone will debate that. If you want reassurance
or acknowledgment, you've got mine. From reading along this thread, Linkage has posted some good reading for you and some good observations. For whatever the initial reasons, sounds like you are depressed. I get p*ssed and desperate when meds leave me flat or even worse off then when I started. But there are still choices to be made. That you've set the summer to end it is a choice. You chose to post here, and hopefully that is a positive choice.Hang around, read some threads, post
some questions and comments. You have support if you are willing to accept ot. As commented above, you seem to have been on a series of meds, and to my mind, some pretty quickly in succession. That can leave one rattled, scraped raw, numb, or?What are you currently taking?
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 17, 2011, at 17:18:05
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by linkadge on April 17, 2011, at 15:55:41
Friends,
If you are considering posting in this thread, I am requesting that you read the following article.
Lou
To see this article;
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in:
[Psychotropic drugs, cause brain damage?]
You will see the article titled,{Brain damage caused by neuroleptic psychotrpic drugs-MFI Portal}
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 17, 2011, at 17:50:47
In reply to Lou's response-brahyndhamedge, posted by Lou Pilder on April 17, 2011, at 17:18:05
> Friends,
> If you are considering posting in this thread, I am requesting that you read the following article.
> Lou
> To see this article;
> A. Pull up Google
> B. Type in:
> [Psychotropic drugs, cause brain damage?]
> You will see the article titled,{Brain damage caused by neuroleptic psychotrpic drugs-MFI Portal}
Friends,
Another aspect of this dicussion could be as to what a drug can cause the brain to do. In the following video, that is stated in relation to the drug in question. But does that mean for only that drug? Is there anything to prove that the brain does not do the same thing with other drugs?
Lou
To see this video,
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in;
[youtube, the world's most dangerous drug]
You will see two people and the video is produced by Natioanal Geographic
the time is 3 min posted on June 25, 2008
Posted by Phillipa on April 17, 2011, at 19:45:31
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 17, 2011, at 14:20:18
Poser and so glad you are here. It's so hard to feel so miserable and feel like you are being accused of the cause. You aren't some meds are just not a good fit. I sure hope brain damage isn't a result of meds as a bunch of people who have found their right med or combo Might disagree on this. Hang in okay? Feel free to babblemail me also. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on April 17, 2011, at 22:40:26
In reply to the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 16, 2011, at 11:16:30
> so i think i've finally realized the only way out of the situation i'm is to off myself. i've been suffering from stimulant induced anhedonia for a year and a half.(and SSRI induced anhedonia for 3 years before that, i have both now) im completely numb to any feelings of pleasure. im wasting my life just laying in my bed all day everyday. i have zero drive.. and it hurts. i've been to two different psychiatrists and both told me they cant help me. so i guess i'm stuck like this, which is just unnacceptable. i need some help somebody...
Your story is not so unusual amongst the people who arrive here at Psycho-Babble. It would be difficult to isolate the factors that have made you feel worse. Sometimes, it is a change in the natural course of the illness that is not recognized as such. Sometimes there are lasting undesirable effects for having taken medications that persist after discontinuing them. Either way, I don't think your future treatments should be chosen contingent upon trying to reverse the perceived negative reactions of previously tried drugs. You might do better to pursue treating your depression as it is now, and not worry about how in differs your depression historically.
As you interact here at Psycho-Babble, you will learn new treatment techniques that others have tried. The longer you are here, the more alternative treatments you will come to know and research. There are people who have failed to respond to decades of treatment, only to come upon an untried medication combination that produces a robust therapeutic response.
Be prepared to endure today as you continue to work for a better tomorrow. I cannot make you any guarantees, though. However, you do have a better chance of finding your rewards in life if you remain alive long enough to explore new treatments with old drugs as new drugs become available. I am currently taking 5 different drugs and am seeing a stable treatment response for the first time in 25 years. Fortunately, I hung around long enough.
If one person can suggest a treatment strategy that you have not yet tried, you have a logical reason to remain alive to pursue it. There is true hope. That's the way I have come to look at things. This perspective helped keep me alive for over 30 years.
What are some of the treatments your doctor has in mind for you?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 17, 2011, at 22:47:59
In reply to Lou's response-pumnantlozvplehzur, posted by Lou Pilder on April 17, 2011, at 17:50:47
> > Friends,
> > If you are considering posting in this thread, I am requesting that you read the following article.
> > Lou
> > To see this article;
> > A. Pull up Google
> > B. Type in:
> > [Psychotropic drugs, cause brain damage?]
> > You will see the article titled,{Brain damage caused by neuroleptic psychotrpic drugs-MFI Portal}
> Friends,
> Another aspect of this dicussion could be as to what a drug can cause the brain to do. In the following video, that is stated in relation to the drug in question. But does that mean for only that drug? Is there anything to prove that the brain does not do the same thing with other drugs?
> Lou
> To see this video,
> A. Pull up Google
> B. Type in;
> [youtube, the world's most dangerous drug]
> You will see two people and the video is produced by Natioanal Geographic
> the time is 3 min posted on June 25, 2008
For mental illnesses, the world's most dangerous drug is often no drug at all.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on April 17, 2011, at 22:50:59
In reply to Re: To treat or not to treat... » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on April 17, 2011, at 22:47:59
>
>
> For mental illnesses, the world's most dangerous drug is often no drug at all.
>
>
> - Scott
Simple and sane observation. Your coinage? I like it.
Posted by SLS on April 17, 2011, at 22:53:29
In reply to Re: To treat or not to treat..., posted by floatingbridge on April 17, 2011, at 22:50:59
>
> >
> >
> > For mental illnesses, the world's most dangerous drug is often no drug at all.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
> Simple and sane observation. Your coinage? I like it.
Thanks.:-)
- Scott
Posted by poser938 on April 18, 2011, at 0:14:18
In reply to Re: the only way out » poser938, posted by SLS on April 17, 2011, at 22:40:26
i stopped going to one because he said there was nothinng else he could do.. and my new one prescribed me celexa(ssr) which is the 1st thing thats usually tried im sure you know. its the only ssri i havent taken and the other ones numbed me to different extents. ive tried wellbutrin and it has a different numbing effect on me than SSRI's.
Well i'll tell you a bit of my psych history.
in 2005 when i 1st saw a psych he prescribed me cymbalta and adderall. after about a month my tolerance grew to adderall completely to 20mgs XR so i tried taking 2 of them and i still could not feel it one bit. usually people can up their dose and get and effect but i got nothing. i also ended up with anhedonia/extreme anxiety from that combo.. i suffered for a year and then gave and tried effexor and it made me sooooo NUMB! so i tried adderall again and still got no effect from it at all even tho it had been a year.
a few days later i asked my doc for cyproheptadine to help with effexor side effects. so i took it, slowly increasing the dose week for about a month..and then all the sudden my anhedonia had gone away. i could feel adderall again, and i was much less numb... but still pretty numb.2 years went by and then i finally went to a medical doc to see if anything could take away all the numbness and thats when i was given mirapex. after a month and a half i ended up with anhedonia from it. thats when i realized adderall had caused my anhedonia in the past. so i tried cyproheptadine again, it helped quite a bit again, but i ended having to take too high a dose of it this time and had to stop taking it, unfortuanately.. and ive slowly gotten worse since i stopped taking it in december 2010. im going to get some more of the cyproheptadine tuesday to see if my tolerance has gone down to it yet. i storngly believe cyproheptadine affects dopamine receptors by upregulating them/ sensitiziing them in some way. and that increases the release of dopamine. i dont get how, im just positive it does.
sorry if some of this sounds unclear, i can seriously not think straight .
Posted by SLS on April 18, 2011, at 5:52:41
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 18, 2011, at 0:14:18
You are right about cyproheptadine. It is considered an anti-serotonergic that blocks 5-HT2a and 5-HT2b receptors. This in turn increases dopaminergic activity in various regions of the brain, including the prefrontal cortex - an area important for cognition and mood. Interestingly, 5-HT2a receptor binding is increased in suicide victims. This upregulation might indicate a decrease in serotoninergic activity in the PFC. This is in contrast to the mood-lifting properties of antipsychotics that block 5-HT2a receptors.
Linkadge is very capable. He is an amazing resource for information. I'm sure he will correct my errors and expand upon what I have said.
Have you ever tried Remeron?
I'm glad you are now in a more positive and constructive state of mind. This is a heroic effort in view of the frustration and pain you must endure. Keep it up and continue to think creatively.
Suicide is a way out for which there is no way back in.
There is actually a neurobiology for suicidality. Anger and anxiety make it worse. In other words, there is the possibility that you are currently wired biologically to *feel* suicidal. When this is combined with having to manage a depressing situation, things get dangerous. You might need to start looking at this feeling of suicidality to be artificially produced by a dysfunction brain. Self-talk that recognizes these false fellings might help. It has helped me, especially when I have had bad reactions to medications. I avoid making decisions while in this state.
- Scott
> i stopped going to one because he said there was nothinng else he could do.. and my new one prescribed me celexa(ssr) which is the 1st thing thats usually tried im sure you know. its the only ssri i havent taken and the other ones numbed me to different extents. ive tried wellbutrin and it has a different numbing effect on me than SSRI's.
> Well i'll tell you a bit of my psych history.
> in 2005 when i 1st saw a psych he prescribed me cymbalta and adderall. after about a month my tolerance grew to adderall completely to 20mgs XR so i tried taking 2 of them and i still could not feel it one bit. usually people can up their dose and get and effect but i got nothing. i also ended up with anhedonia/extreme anxiety from that combo.. i suffered for a year and then gave and tried effexor and it made me sooooo NUMB! so i tried adderall again and still got no effect from it at all even tho it had been a year.
> a few days later i asked my doc for cyproheptadine to help with effexor side effects. so i took it, slowly increasing the dose week for about a month..and then all the sudden my anhedonia had gone away. i could feel adderall again, and i was much less numb... but still pretty numb.
>
> 2 years went by and then i finally went to a medical doc to see if anything could take away all the numbness and thats when i was given mirapex. after a month and a half i ended up with anhedonia from it. thats when i realized adderall had caused my anhedonia in the past. so i tried cyproheptadine again, it helped quite a bit again, but i ended having to take too high a dose of it this time and had to stop taking it, unfortuanately.. and ive slowly gotten worse since i stopped taking it in december 2010. im going to get some more of the cyproheptadine tuesday to see if my tolerance has gone down to it yet. i storngly believe cyproheptadine affects dopamine receptors by upregulating them/ sensitiziing them in some way. and that increases the release of dopamine. i dont get how, im just positive it does.
>
> sorry if some of this sounds unclear, i can seriously not think straight .
Posted by huxley on April 18, 2011, at 6:07:41
In reply to the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 16, 2011, at 11:16:30
poser,
You have come to the wrong place man.
Check out paxilprogress.com
You will find people who have quit SSRIs and suffer for up to 5 years before recovering. They all mention anhedonia and they all recover eventually.
I strongly suggest you go there and check it out before you listen to anyone here. Contrary to popular belief they don't know what they are talking about.
You know what I have found, even the real pschiatirists dont know what they are doing. They are guessing, I have had several admit that.
So why on earth would you listen to a bunch of anonymous people online talking about dopamine receptors.
No one understands how the brain works or how these drugs effect them. All we can do is go of ancedotal evidence and sometimes our own is our best.
Good luck with whatever you do.
Posted by SLS on April 18, 2011, at 6:30:55
In reply to Re: the only way out » poser938, posted by huxley on April 18, 2011, at 6:07:41
> poser,
>
> You have come to the wrong place man.Perhaps.
> Check out paxilprogress.com
>
> You will find people who have quit SSRIs and suffer for up to 5 years before recovering. They all mention anhedonia and they all recover eventually.Under what circumstances?
> I strongly suggest you go there and check it out before you listen to anyone here. Contrary to popular belief they don't know what they are talking about.
When you have a chance, please tell me where I went wrong. It would be helpful to everyone here if you could. Also, you might want to critique my question regarding Remeron.
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on April 18, 2011, at 11:05:37
In reply to Re: the only way out » poser938, posted by huxley on April 18, 2011, at 6:07:41
> poser,
>
> You have come to the wrong place man.You're entitled to your opinion. This place is one of many possible sights. That it is a 'wrong' choice sounds like black/white thinking. That usually has the least positive results by closing down
possibilities.>
> Check out paxilprogress.comI was just there the other day. I have
been tapering off various medications. Personally speaking, I didn't find the
information there any more compelling or scientifically sound than here. Or any less anonymous.It's not like anyone (that I'm aware of) is
proselytizing to just go out and start medication. I'm not 'pro'-medication, rather I advocate freedom of choice based on my subjective and anecdotal knowledge of protracted states of mental illness.>
> You will find people who have quit SSRIs and suffer for up to 5 years before recovering. They all mention anhedonia
and they all recover eventually.Good. However, they have lived long enough to do so. And being med-
free does sound nice. Again, there is evidence, depending on what study is brought out, that an untreated brain in a severe state of illness has lost some regenerative ability and needs help of some sort.>
> I strongly suggest you go there and check it out before you listen to anyone here.Good suggestion. How about 'while also
talking with various folks here.'? This site isn't quite the solid voting block that your statement suggests.>Contrary to popular belief they don't know what they are talking about.
>There's a popular belief somewhere?
> You know what I have found, even the real pschiatirists dont know what they
are doing. They are guessing, I have had
several admit that.Many people have taxed a doctor's knowledge. But I wouldn't take that as a sign to forgo all medication again.
> So why on earth would you listen to a bunch of anonymous people online talking about dopamine receptors.
Or about Paxil withdrawal for that matter. Strange times call for strange
measures. We find ourselves online
largely due to self-advocacy.> No one understands how the brain works or how these drugs effect them. All we can do is go of ancedotal evidence and sometimes our own is our best.
> Good luck with whatever you do.
>Yes, good luck to us all, you poser, and you Huxley, too.
fb
Posted by morgan miller on April 18, 2011, at 12:01:08
In reply to Re: the only way out » poser938, posted by huxley on April 18, 2011, at 6:07:41
> poser,
>
> You have come to the wrong place man.
>
> Check out paxilprogress.com
>
> You will find people who have quit SSRIs and suffer for up to 5 years before recovering. They all mention anhedonia and they all recover eventually.
>
> I strongly suggest you go there and check it out before you listen to anyone here. Contrary to popular belief they don't know what they are talking about.
>
> You know what I have found, even the real pschiatirists dont know what they are doing. They are guessing, I have had several admit that.
>
> So why on earth would you listen to a bunch of anonymous people online talking about dopamine receptors.
>
> No one understands how the brain works or how these drugs effect them. All we can do is go of ancedotal evidence and sometimes our own is our best.
>
> Good luck with whatever you do.
>
>Huxley, why do you keep coming back here if you have nothing to gain from any of the people here?
Look man, some people may have had bad experiences with SSRIs that sent them into a state worse than what they were before, I don't doubt that this is possible. Still, I believe there are far more people out there that have never had these issues with SSRIs and do well on them for the rest of their lives. You are going off of one internet site that attracts what is likely a smaller part of the population of people that have tried SSRIs than what it appears. Also, if one does not think their brain is quite the same after being on medication for a while, but they were doing fine on medication without ill side effects, than why not just stay on the darn medication and just live life? Big deal, you wake up in the morning, take your antidepressant, feel good, and get on with life, it's really that simple. Now for those that had a bad experience on an antidepressant or other medicaition, I suggest doing lots of research in an attempt to find medications that are less invasive and more likely to be effective. Medication should be combined with supplements, diet, exercise, meditative stretching/yoga, meditation, and therapy. Why would you want to suffer for five years of your life hoping that your brain function will return to normal(it may not because mental illness itself may prevent it from) when you could find ways to feel good again with the right medication. I sure as heck would not feel as good as I do right now if I had not given Lexapro a full 3 months and added a moderate dose of Depakote to it. I also take supplements that are helping, one of them being Piracetam(really a drug), and I just started exercising 3 times a wk(will be 4 or 5 soon).
You do realize there is some pretty good scientific evidence for chronic depression, anxiety, and bipolar states to cause alterations in chemistry and damage in parts of the brain, do you not? Medications may actually be useful in healing parts of the brain as some may be neuroprotective and also assist in repairing parts of the brain damaged by mental illness, and, possibly even parts of the brain damaged by previous medication use. It really is all dependent on the kinds of medications used. I think it would be silly to deny at least a trial of something like a low dose of lithium for those that experience depression and mixed states as lithium may protect the brain and help restore it at the same time. Lithium is not a synthesized in the lab medication, it comes straight from the earth. Lithium just needs to be bonded with something to help deliver it more like it would be delivered if we got it from nature-water or vegetables. There has been a study that showed cities with higher levels of lithium in the water had lower crime rates and lower suicide rates.
As I recall, you were on Zyprexa, which I consider to be a very invasive medicaiton. I've been off Zyprexa for a year now and I am so so glad I'm not taking it anymore.
>No one understands how the brain works or how these drugs effect them.
Well, you are wrong about this for sure. We may not know everything that medications do, but we have a good idea, and this is a result of legitimate research studies, what some of the main mechanisms of actions of medications are.
I believe it is a bit ridiculous to just ignore at least what we do know of science and simply always go off of anecdote.Huxley, you obviously had a bad experience with some pretty heavy duty medications. Do you think it's possible that with the right medications you would eventually feel and function just fine and go on living a fairly happy life? All I'm saying is, don't knock it till you've tried it(and I'm not talking about awful drugs like Zyprexa).
How are you doing these days?
Morgan
Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2011, at 16:11:48
In reply to Re: the only way out » huxley, posted by SLS on April 18, 2011, at 6:30:55
Yes, some people do experience the protracted withdrawl symptoms. It took me about a year off celexa before I felt back to 100% normal. However, I still needed medication at the time to get back to normal.
I think withdrawl symptoms exist, but at the same time, normal people don't take antidepressants.
Its like going to get your first pair of glasses and putting them on. If you stop wearing them after a few months you will notice your eyes are worse, becuase they havn't had to work as hard to focus. Thats not a reason to bash glasses. If you really want to get back to your preglasses state, it will take a long time of sqiniting.
The bottom line is have a problem or you don't. Sometimes taking medications convince people that there was never a problem to begin with. That can be dangerous because they can't understand why they don't feel well off the drugs. If you need glasses, you're never going to see 100% without them (or contacts / laser surgury.. yadia).
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2011, at 16:15:10
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by morgan miller on April 18, 2011, at 12:01:08
I would hazzard to guess that those who experience the most severe and prolonged withdrawl symptoms probaby had the most pronounced depressive syptoms to begin with.
I know a friend who took 40mg of paxil for relatively mild anxiety. He stopped in a week (had withdrawl, but said it "wasn't too bad") so it really depends.
Linkadge
Posted by floatingbridge on April 18, 2011, at 17:18:31
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by linkadge on April 18, 2011, at 16:15:10
> I would hazzard to guess that those who experience the most severe and prolonged withdrawl symptoms probaby had the most pronounced depressive syptoms to begin with.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
Since reading about fibromyalgia, there
seems to be a consensus that as a population, these patients are very med-sensitive across the board. (There is no consensus regarding what fibromyalgia actually is, however.) Then there are those who present with depression years before fibromyalgia. Sigh.Which doesn't disprove your guess. Some people theorize that depression (somatic) was afoot before fibromyalgia. I do know some folks w/ it who had some nice, undepressed lives before it.
Then, I think it's too easy an equation to say the more severe the illness, the more
protracted the withdrawal.(I would, unfortunately, be a fine example if your first guess was correct :-/ .)
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on April 18, 2011, at 17:33:46
In reply to Re: the only way out » poser938, posted by SLS on April 18, 2011, at 5:52:41
> You are right about cyproheptadine. It is considered an anti-serotonergic that blocks 5-HT2a and 5-HT2b receptors. This in turn increases dopaminergic activity in various regions of the brain, including the prefrontal cortex - an area important for cognition and mood. Interestingly, 5-HT2a receptor binding is increased in suicide victims. This upregulation might indicate a decrease of serotoninergic activity in the PFC. This is in contrast to the mood-lifting properties of antipsychotics that block 5-HT2a receptors.
>Scott, I'm having difficulty parsing this information out and applying to my own situation, one in which AP's (limited experience) make me feel worse.
So a 5-HT2a receptor binding agent is the same way of saying anti-serotegenic agents in the above paragraph? Obviously I'm not following. (It's me.)
And remeron? I haven't tried it. A friend considers it a cornerstone in her sustained recovery.
Thanks
> Linkadge is very capable.
Yes! :D
fb
He is an amazing resource for information. I'm sure he will correct my errors and expand upon what I have said.
>
> Have you ever tried Remeron?
>
> I'm glad you are now in a more positive and constructive state of mind. This is a heroic effort in view of the frustration and pain you must endure. Keep it up and continue to think creatively.
>
> Suicide is a way out for which there is no way back in.
>
> There is actually a neurobiology for suicidality. Anger and anxiety make it worse. In other words, there is the possibility that you are currently wired biologically to *feel* suicidal. When this is combined with having to manage a depressing situation, things get dangerous. You might need to start looking at this feeling of suicidality to be artificially produced by a dysfunction brain. Self-talk that recognizes these false fellings might help. It has helped me, especially when I have had bad reactions to medications. I avoid making decisions while in this state.
>
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
>
>
>
> > i stopped going to one because he said there was nothinng else he could do.. and my new one prescribed me celexa(ssr) which is the 1st thing thats usually tried im sure you know. its the only ssri i havent taken and the other ones numbed me to different extents. ive tried wellbutrin and it has a different numbing effect on me than SSRI's.
> > Well i'll tell you a bit of my psych history.
> > in 2005 when i 1st saw a psych he prescribed me cymbalta and adderall. after about a month my tolerance grew to adderall completely to 20mgs XR so i tried taking 2 of them and i still could not feel it one bit. usually people can up their dose and get and effect but i got nothing. i also ended up with anhedonia/extreme anxiety from that combo.. i suffered for a year and then gave and tried effexor and it made me sooooo NUMB! so i tried adderall again and still got no effect from it at all even tho it had been a year.
> > a few days later i asked my doc for cyproheptadine to help with effexor side effects. so i took it, slowly increasing the dose week for about a month..and then all the sudden my anhedonia had gone away. i could feel adderall again, and i was much less numb... but still pretty numb.
> >
> > 2 years went by and then i finally went to a medical doc to see if anything could take away all the numbness and thats when i was given mirapex. after a month and a half i ended up with anhedonia from it. thats when i realized adderall had caused my anhedonia in the past. so i tried cyproheptadine again, it helped quite a bit again, but i ended having to take too high a dose of it this time and had to stop taking it, unfortuanately.. and ive slowly gotten worse since i stopped taking it in december 2010. im going to get some more of the cyproheptadine tuesday to see if my tolerance has gone down to it yet. i storngly believe cyproheptadine affects dopamine receptors by upregulating them/ sensitiziing them in some way. and that increases the release of dopamine. i dont get how, im just positive it does.
> >
> > sorry if some of this sounds unclear, i can seriously not think straight .
>
>
Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2011, at 18:32:58
In reply to Re: the only way out » linkadge, posted by floatingbridge on April 18, 2011, at 17:18:31
I'm not saying its true for everbody, but it just stands to reason that if your brain is more f'd up before meds, it will probably be f'd up (to some degree) after stopping.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2011, at 18:38:14
In reply to question, Re: the only way out » SLS, posted by floatingbridge on April 18, 2011, at 17:33:46
Cortisol (stress?) increases the expression of excitory 5-ht2a receptors and decreases the expression of inhibitory 1a receptors. As a result, there is excessive glutamatergic activity in the cerebral / prefrontal corticies.
5-ht2a blocking AD's will reduce some of the enhanced activity at 5-ht2a receptors. But, it might take some time till the receptors actually decrease in expression.
SSRI's take some time to decrease 5-ht2a expression and in the mean time might make anxiety worse by activating these receptors. Combining with a 5-ht2a blocking agent, might have theraputic utlilty by decreasing the effect of the oversensitive receptors untill they decrease in affinity.
Basically, one theory is that its the ballance of 5-ht1a / 2a that is off in heightened anxiety / suicidality especially.
Linkadge
Posted by huxley on April 18, 2011, at 18:42:35
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by morgan miller on April 18, 2011, at 12:01:08
Wow so many questions. Couldnt be bother answering them all.
I will answer one, Why do I come back here?
Beacause I hope to stop people getting put on drugs such as Risperdal, Zyprexa and Seroquel from casual advise from internet psychiatrists.
Maybe poser938 is one of these people who is suffering heavily from SSRI withdrawal. Something worth looking into.
I am well MM thanks for asking.
Still stuck on Zyprexa but I am getting of it slowly.
Im doing pretty well MM thanks for asking.
Posted by sigismund on April 18, 2011, at 18:49:56
In reply to Re: the only way out » floatingbridge, posted by linkadge on April 18, 2011, at 18:32:58
It makes sense to me that the more you need a drug, the harder it will be to stop, and maybe the more you should avoid it.
Not always, but sometimes.
For example anxious people might be better off avoiding benzos.
They might be better off trying TCM. I would have been.
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