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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by psychobot5000 on March 23, 2011, at 15:52:16
Anyone know any way to increase or advance REM sleep?
Thanks,
p-bot
Posted by linkadge on March 23, 2011, at 16:18:59
In reply to Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by psychobot5000 on March 23, 2011, at 15:52:16
amitriptyline, surmontil, bupropion?
Linkadge
Posted by psychobot5000 on March 23, 2011, at 16:40:28
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by linkadge on March 23, 2011, at 16:18:59
> amitriptyline, surmontil, bupropion?
>
> LinkadgeI thought amitryptiline and surmontil reduced REM sleep--aren't they both potent anticholinergics?
Would any of these meds -advance- REM sleep, i.e. make it come earlier?
Thanks,
psychbot
Posted by MatthewDavid on March 23, 2011, at 19:31:18
In reply to Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by psychobot5000 on March 23, 2011, at 15:52:16
For me trazadone did the trick, best of all no side effects and didn't feel tired during the day. Seroquel is often prescribed but side effects include massive weight gain, and turn you into a zombie.
Posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2011, at 19:38:07
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by MatthewDavid on March 23, 2011, at 19:31:18
Why not try melatonin or valerian root? Phillipa
Posted by psychobot5000 on March 23, 2011, at 19:45:18
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2011, at 19:38:07
> Why not try melatonin or valerian root? Phillipa
Thanks, but valerian, I wake up sweating, with bad dreams. Melatonin makes me depressed.
Matt, I've taken Seroquel and Trazodone as hypnotics...do they increase REM sleep, do you know?
Psychbot
Posted by linkadge on March 23, 2011, at 20:00:05
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by psychobot5000 on March 23, 2011, at 19:45:18
Surmontil has been shown clinically to increase the time spent in REM sleep (look it up on wikipedia). With amitriptyline and bupropion I remember reading a study which said that improvement on either drug was associated with a increase in REM sleep.
A cholinergic (choline, b12, cholinsterase inhibiton) agent could also theoretically increase the entry into REM sleep. This might have antimanic / antipsychotic effects, but not necessarily good for depression per se.
Linkadge
Posted by MatthewDavid on March 23, 2011, at 20:02:59
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by psychobot5000 on March 23, 2011, at 19:45:18
I'm certainly not an expert but what I remember in school is that when you are in a deep REM sleep you can have vivid dreams. Well without sleep aids i never sleep to the point I have dreams, but with trazadone I have very vivid dreams. What are your goals? to find the best sleep aid/get the best quality sleep?
Posted by sigismund on March 23, 2011, at 23:50:44
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by MatthewDavid on March 23, 2011, at 19:31:18
What about mirtazepine?
And also cyproheptadine?
Or do they just make you sleep more deeply?
Not that I am recommending them.
The next day was too much for me.
Posted by rculater on March 24, 2011, at 10:20:17
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by sigismund on March 23, 2011, at 23:50:44
I'm in same boat, looking to get REM as i seem to wake before I enter it.
Tried melatonin last night, went back to sleep OK after my normal 3am awakening but I feel crap today.
Tylenol PM work OK for me but effect waers off over time.
Got Amitriptiline in closet - scared to take it.
Posted by desolationrower on March 25, 2011, at 5:10:44
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by rculater on March 24, 2011, at 10:20:17
erm most things mentioned here decrease REM (and increase sws), which is usually what you want to do.
You want a cholinergic, like one of the alzheimers drugs or huperzine or nicotine. i think there are some various herbs that increasing 'dreaming' w/o a known mechanism. i could dig around in my notes if you actually want to increase rem.
-d/r
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on March 25, 2011, at 8:00:17
In reply to Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by psychobot5000 on March 23, 2011, at 15:52:16
I have been without Ambien for 3 days now. Used Hyland's Insomnia formula. It's a homeopathic remedy. Took 3, waited 15 min and took another 2...and about 10 min later I felt warm and fuzzy, calm, and ready for bed. I could have done an over-ride if I wanted to, but I didn't want to. The thing I don't like about Ambien is that once you take it, you really do have to be ready to sleep, and you can't really take it if you are only going to get 4 hours of sleep before you have to wake up (because you didn't take it earlier in the night when you should have...that is something I struggle with). The Hyland's Insomnia has been giving me a nice restful sleep, and I feel like going to sleep is my idea, not something I am forced to do. If I have to wake up a few hrs later, it isn't difficult, I'm not groggy or have a fog brain. I also have been augmenting with Ignatia Amara 6C and Arsenicum Album 6C which helps with nervousness, anxiety, and a mind that won't be quiet. Seems to be helping.
Worth a go, they're inexpensive and can be safely taken with meds.
Posted by psychobot5000 on March 25, 2011, at 23:13:42
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by desolationrower on March 25, 2011, at 5:10:44
> erm most things mentioned here decrease REM (and increase sws), which is usually what you want to do.
>
> You want a cholinergic, like one of the alzheimers drugs or huperzine or nicotine. i think there are some various herbs that increasing 'dreaming' w/o a known mechanism. i could dig around in my notes if you actually want to increase rem.
>
> -d/r
>
>D/R--
If it's not too much trouble, I'd be very curious to know about the herbs or whatnot. Anything that could do that.Thanks,
Psychbot
Posted by 23sgrrl on March 29, 2011, at 0:50:35
In reply to Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by psychobot5000 on March 23, 2011, at 15:52:16
> Anyone know any way to increase or advance REM sleep?
>
> Thanks,
> p-bot
Xyrem?
Posted by sigismund on March 29, 2011, at 12:10:56
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by 23sgrrl on March 29, 2011, at 0:50:35
Useful for so many things.
Sleep, sex, social phobia, what else?
No wonder you can't get it.
Posted by desolationrower on March 30, 2011, at 12:42:11
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep? » 23sgrrl, posted by sigismund on March 29, 2011, at 12:10:56
Silene capensis.
I do not know of any scientific studies on it, btw. most likely achei or nicotine analogue.hm, xyrem is a good mention. i remembered that it increases sws but i looked that up just to be sure, and it also increases REM, at least at certain doses (see "A pilot study on the effects of sodium oxybate on sleep architecture and daytime alertness in narcolepsy "http://www.journalsleep.org/Articles/270708.pdf for details.)
-d/r
Posted by psychobot5000 on April 2, 2011, at 15:22:09
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by BetweenDreams81 on March 25, 2011, at 8:00:17
> I have been without Ambien for 3 days now. Used Hyland's Insomnia formula. It's a homeopathic remedy. Took 3, waited 15 min and took another 2...and about 10 min later I felt warm and fuzzy, calm, and ready for bed. I could have done an over-ride if I wanted to, but I didn't want to. The thing I don't like about Ambien is that once you take it, you really do have to be ready to sleep, and you can't really take it if you are only going to get 4 hours of sleep before you have to wake up (because you didn't take it earlier in the night when you should have...that is something I struggle with). The Hyland's Insomnia has been giving me a nice restful sleep, and I feel like going to sleep is my idea, not something I am forced to do. If I have to wake up a few hrs later, it isn't difficult, I'm not groggy or have a fog brain. I also have been augmenting with Ignatia Amara 6C and Arsenicum Album 6C which helps with nervousness, anxiety, and a mind that won't be quiet. Seems to be helping.
>
> Worth a go, they're inexpensive and can be safely taken with meds.This is good. There are a lot of interesting suggestions on this thread for sleep aids--I've tried a hundred of them, but I may as well try another dozen or so. All it hurts is the pocketbook. ...It's hard to know whether to trust the homeopathic ones, however--if they're properly diluted, there might not be a single molecule of the active ingredients in a given formula.
In any case, I'm trying to improve sleep without disrupting structure. So let's try another tack: what pharmaceutical sleep aids DO NOT suppress REM? Any ideas? Do benzodiazepines suppress it? I know Halcion is supposed to, but what about the rest?
Also: does anyone know why opiates seem to affect REM? In my experience, buprenorphine/suboxone seems to actually increase dreaming (which I assume translates to increased REM), and I'm wondering why that would be. (I suppose it could have something to do with its partial agonism, rather than full agonism, of mu opiate receptors, or the fact that it's apparently a powerful antagonist of kappa opiate receptors, in contrast to other meds...but I'm really just guessing).
So, yeah, I'd be very curious to hear any insight anyone has on these.
Psychbot.
Posted by desolationrower on April 3, 2011, at 0:38:32
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by psychobot5000 on April 2, 2011, at 15:22:09
>
> In any case, I'm trying to improve sleep without disrupting structure. So let's try another tack: what pharmaceutical sleep aids DO NOT suppress REM? Any ideas? Do benzodiazepines suppress it? I know Halcion is supposed to, but what about the rest?
>yeah, benzos don't. but the thing is, the general model is: sleep starts out normal/structured. Then you get depressed, and REM increases, REM and light sleep and wakingi interfere with deep sleep and the order gets more random. But, if you take an antidepressant, your sleep structure improves: REM supression, and thus more deep sleep.
So unless you have a sleep study showing that you are sleeping with LOOOTTTS of deep sleep and no REM, i'm kind of skeptical that you would like the results of more REM.
> Also: does anyone know why opiates seem to affect REM? In my experience, buprenorphine/suboxone seems to actually increase dreaming (which I assume translates to increased REM), and I'm wondering why that would be. (I suppose it could have something to do with its partial agonism, rather than full agonism, of mu opiate receptors, or the fact that it's apparently a powerful antagonist of kappa opiate receptors, in contrast to other meds...but I'm really just guessing).erm, i would guess some sort of structural reason periaductual grey or something is relevant, but i don't actually remember anything about it. I skip most htings on opiods, since they are mostly unavailble tools. sorry.
oh and "subjective dreaming" = woke up during REM, for the most part.
-d/r
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on April 11, 2011, at 22:42:31
In reply to Re: Drugs that increase REM sleep?, posted by psychobot5000 on April 2, 2011, at 15:22:09
There is only one hypnotic that doesnt supress REM sleep, that is the old tricyclic antidepressant Surmontil (trimipramine)
Unfortunatly it is long acting, so can sometimes cause hangover the following day, depending on the dose you take.
It isnt habit forming, so your doctor shouldnt be too concerned about letting you try it.
This is the end of the thread.
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