![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 88. Go back in thread:
Posted by violette on June 16, 2010, at 11:25:02
In reply to how I (finally) got off meds..., posted by Christ_empowered on June 16, 2010, at 9:35:25
Congratulations-sounds like a success story. I agree with some aspects of your reasoning, though your situation is unique to you. People can use substances to block emotional pain and emotional dysregulation, sometimes erroneously diagnosed as bipolar...put on meds for the rest of their lives instead of dealing with the psychological issues.
You didn't mention if your program was similar--but the 12 step program of AA/NA, based on spirituality (as opposed to specifically christianity) is a success, I'm amazed how it has helped people cope and progress without medications. I know of 2 people, previously on meds, who completely recovered from using the 12 step program and no longer use psychotropics.
It's not for everyone though; what worked for you is great, but we are all unique...and because a specific treatment worked for you doesn't mean people with totally different circumstances than yourself, people with totally different traits and genetic structures, backgrounds and history, can arrive at the_exact_same_outcome as you.
I'd guess you already realize this though. Thanks for sharing your story.
Posted by chujoe on June 16, 2010, at 11:40:10
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » Huxley, posted by violette on June 16, 2010, at 11:06:57
>>But maybe you should do some homework!<<
It is my understanding that we do not tell each other what to do in this forum; instead, we use "I statements." So please stop condescending to me and many other members and assuming we have not done our homework. Nor do I need to be told that I am "entitled to [my] opinions." That, literally, should go without saying.
Posted by SLS on June 16, 2010, at 11:55:43
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 4:37:45
> What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE.
> If it was a biological illness then there would be biological evidence.You may want to do some more reading.
- Scott
Posted by violette on June 16, 2010, at 12:03:43
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by chujoe on June 16, 2010, at 11:40:10
Oh, sorry, Chujoe-my post was for Huxley. I thought people were telling him that his opinion was not welcome--but I misinterpreted others' intentions...I was just trying to encourage him to learn more about the neurobiological origins of mental illness and thought that was a good article that might persuade him.
Sorry if I offended anyone :(
Posted by violette on June 16, 2010, at 12:11:07
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by chujoe on June 16, 2010, at 11:40:10
>>But maybe you should do some homework!<<
It is my understanding that we do not tell each other what to do in this forum; instead, we use "I statements." So please stop condescending to me and many other members and assuming we have not done our homework. Nor do I need to be told that I am "entitled to [my] opinions." That, literally, should go without saying.
___________________________Huxley, as pointed out by another member, I shouldn't have said "maybe you should do some homework". Sorry! I should have said here's an article that might change your mind or something like that.
It's just I've observed many people say on this part of the forum-"don't say this, don't say that...don't post here if you are anti-med, dont' scare people with research that shows meds are harmful"....it seemed the post was headed that way and I was telling Huxley I welcomed his opinion even if I didn't agree with it, thinking the post was going to turn into an argument rather than a useful debate.
Posted by 49er on June 16, 2010, at 17:22:17
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
Hi Huxley,
I am completely free of psych meds after 15 years on them. I took my last pill almost a week ago and feel so much better.
I still struggle with insomnia but it was so bad on psych meds, that practically anything is an improvement.
I started tapering a 4 med cocktail in 2006. I pretty much tapered 10% of current dose every 3 to 6 weeks with the exception of Wellbutrin XL which I cold turkeyed with the help of spirulina.
I have the Whitaker book and agree completely with everything you say.
I will be honest, even though I was tapering slowly, I wondered if my brain was permanently damaged. I had horrible cognitive brain fog. But once I stopped taking psych meds, I realized it wasn't as it improved greatly. Not 100% but so much better.
I know people get tired of my saying this but slow tapering is the key in my opinion.
If people want to babble me, feel free to do so.
Please don't give up hope.
49er
Posted by Mrtook on June 16, 2010, at 17:48:13
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 4:37:45
>
> How can you treat a chemical imbalance that you have not detected using drugs that you do not understand what they do?
>
> To me this seems the opposite of balance. When you are putting these drugs in your system, this is when you are creating
> an imbalance which leads to you being chronically ill.
>
> "For instance, Prozac and other SSRI antidepressants block
> the reuptake of serotonin . In order to cope with this hindrance of normal function, the
> brain tones down its whole serotonergic system . Neurons both release less serotonin and
> down-regulate (or decrease) their number of serotonin receptors . The density of serotonin
> receptors in the brain may decrease by 50% or more . As part of this adaptation
> process, Hyman noted, there are also changes in intracellular signaling pathways and
> gene expression . After a few weeks, Hyman concluded, the patient's brain is functioning
> in a manner that is "qualitatively as well as quantitatively different from the normal
> state"
The simplistic mono-amine (chemical imbalance) theory of depression has not really been credible for a while. The source for this theory was that TCA's worked and this was their major biological effect. Ergo, it must be what is causing the anti-depressant effect! In reality no one knows why they work, but they have been proven to have a net positive effect at least for some short term. In fact some of the brain changes you indicate are currently hypothesized as the real mechanics of the anti-depressant qualities.Regardless, the real power of AD's is the hope that they bring (Why we have to pay lots of money and endure side effects to get the placebo bonus is a frustration. I would love for some top secret gov. agency to release Plabix a new AD with some miraculous and made up method of action that barely costs anything at all).
The bottom line is that if you have decided that they (meds) are part of the problem for you then you have most likely decided your response to them. I would encourage you to not shout your POV to the world, however, as you might ruin the significant AD magic that is placebo based for others.
If you had evidence that was more compelling in regards to long term harm I would be all for it, however, I just don't find Whitaker to be all that truthful and unbiased. When he very blatantly misrepresents study conclusions
I found this post http://chekhovsgun.blogspot.com/2010/05/anatomy-of-epidemic-or-story-told-over.html very interesting.
Again, I am not saying you aren't right, and long term research is certainly warranted, but I still think the benefits out weigh the research.
Posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 19:21:50
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Mrtook on June 16, 2010, at 17:48:13
Hi All,
Apologies I am new to this forum and I understand that I have been a little insensitive, as mr took put it 'shoutinging my POV'.
It was a little aggressive so I will tone it down and refer to myself and my experience as someone put it we are all unique.
That being said, the title of the thread is pretty obvious and I also advised in the first post for those happy on their medications and
not wanting to hear any negativity not to read on.I refrained from posting in the acceptance of meds thread out of respect that it was a place where people did not want to hear about this.
If this is a pro medication forum and I am way out of line and in the wrong place then the moderator can give me
a tap on a shoulder and I will head for the nearest exit.For me personally, the days of blindly accepting what psychiatry tells me is good for me is over. For even taking this view, I am met by hostile opposition
from doctors and people on internet forums. If I question the wisdom of modern psychiatry I am an anti med nut all of a sudden.Why can't I question this 'science' that is built on shakey foundations at best. Why can't we even ponder that what we know is wrong?
I think a mature and respectable conversation is needed to lift the lid on psychiatry and see what comes out.
I as a patient have been deceived. By my doctor and by several large pharmaseutical companies. And I have been left feeling that they do not have my best interests at heart.Big pharma companies are drugging 3 year olds with Zyprexa. They are combining anti-psychotics with anti-depressants in the same pill to get more of the population into the AP game.
The ever expanding classification of Bipolar. I mean really.. what the hell is bipolar with features otherwise undescribed..?
They knew that some APs caused diabetes among other serious health problems and chose to withold that from the public and still push the drug onto them.
I could go on for ever about disturbing practices that these companies engage in. However, my point is that they do not have your interests at heart. They are driven
by profit.And they are the driving force in the world of psychiatry. They educate doctors with sales reps, conferences, case studies and whatever other means they have.
They go out of there way to destroy the reputations of professionals who question the practices of psychiatry.So I find it alarming that my dr's views on psychiatry come from the big pharma companies.
Since I have cut down on my medications, gradually, I am getting a little clarity back into my mind. I am far less agitated. The stories of people who have come
of meds and are doing better than ever fills me with hope.Christ empowered thanks for sharing your story.
Violette no offence taken at all, we all feel passionatly about this issue, it is very central to our lives.
SLS the link that you posted did not work for me. I did a google with your search terms and
read an article noting "Further studies will show whether the changes in the brain were the result of depression or anti-depressant medication"I think studies have proven that psychiatric medications do significantly alter the structure of the brain.
49er thanks, it's people like you who have done this and are doing well that really give me hope. I would love to hear more about your story and will babble you.
cheers,
Huxley.
Posted by mrtook on June 16, 2010, at 21:21:23
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 19:21:50
You are right I should have refrained from posting in this thread. I apologize.
Posted by Dan_MI on June 16, 2010, at 21:47:59
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
I don't know how frank I'm allowed to be here, but don't forget Scientology's founder, L. Ron Hubbard, was obsessed with discrediting psychiatry, and there is now a well-funded army of his followers trying to get people off meds and come in for auditing.
> I have not posted in the acceptance of meds gives me happiness thread because I would have nothing positive to say.
>
> If people are happy taking meds and feel that they are essential then I think it is wise to ignore all the bad studies and statistics that are coming out about there long term use.
>
> If you are one of these people then don't read on because this will not help you.
>
> This thread is for people who are not happy, they are not doing well on drugs and feel that they would be better off without them yet cannot get off them because of they have put your brain into a vulnerable biochemical state.
>
>
> Did you know that Depression was originally one of the psychiatric conditions with the best prognosis for eventual recovery, with or without treatment?
>
> Here is a quote from anatomy of an epidemic.
>
> "The SSRI path to a disabling mental illness can be easily seen. A depressed patient treated with an anti-depressant suffers a manic or psychotic episode, at which time his or her diagnosis is changed to bipolar disorder. At that point, the person is prescribed an anti-psychotic to go along with the anti-depressant, and, once on a drug cocktail, the person is well along on the road to permanent disability"
>
> Does anyone else believe this or have I been spooked by an 'aids denier'?
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by Conundrum on June 16, 2010, at 21:48:30
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
>
> "The SSRI path to a disabling mental illness can be easily seen. A depressed patient treated with an anti-depressant suffers a manic or psychotic episode, at which time his or her diagnosis is changed to bipolar disorder. At that point, the person is prescribed an anti-psychotic to go along with the anti-depressant, and, once on a drug cocktail, the person is well along on the road to permanent disability"
This sounds like what happened to me. Since I had a rebound of odd spirituality after discontinuing SSRIs for a couple years my pdoc now thinks I have mood stablity (BP) issues. The fact is those strange feelings were only felt one time in my life, after discontinuing prozac. I only felt persistantly happy one time in my life, while on prozac. Why is my biology getting blamed for something anyone with half a brain can see is the action of a drug and the rebound after drug discontinuation?If I got high on MDMA or heroin, no one would say "You're bipolar" they would say I was high. Why is it that antidepressant drugs can't make some people feel better all the time? Thats their job. Sometimes they work a little better in some ppl. I think the antipsychotic thing might have gotten a little out of control. I would only take an AP if I though it would help MY SYMPTOMS. I would only take a dose for MY SYMPTOMS, which would be below the doses needed for psychosis or BP disorder.
Now this all sounds very antimed. And I like you huxley believe if I had never taken ADs i would have recovered on my own, but it wasn't really up to me. I don't mean to keep mentioning the past, this is just for people who don't know my story. Many would probably say "well then why are you here?"
Because I have to fight fire with fire. After 7 years of persistant problems after prozac discontinuation I need to take a psych drug or drugs to counteract what prozac has done in my brain. I'm not even sure this will work, but I feel I don't have many other options. I haven't found most plant products helpful. The same goes for many synthetic supplements I've tried. I now have to find a drug that can help me to reverse the changes made previously made in my brain and god knows if thats possible. Thats like that guy from Quantum Leap to get back to his own time and world. I have some ideas of things that might help but I don't know if I'll ever get back to 100% the way i was before OR while on prozac. yes while on teh drug I was fine, more than fine. Something happened stopping it. My brain adapted to fit the drug and now seems to be lost or not interested in helping my anhedonia and symptoms, since I guess they're not critical to my survival or at least my brain doesn't seem to think so.
End Rant.
Posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 22:50:38
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Dan_MI on June 16, 2010, at 21:47:59
> I don't know how frank I'm allowed to be here, but don't forget Scientology's founder, L. Ron Hubbard, was obsessed with discrediting psychiatry, and there is now a well-funded army of his followers trying to get people off meds and come in for auditing.
>Hi Dan, so you are saying if I question my treatment then I am a scientologist?
Thanks for re-enforcing my point.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 17, 2010, at 2:38:05
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 19:21:50
> This thread is for people who are not happy, they are not doing well on drugs and feel that they would be better off without them yet cannot get off them because of they have put your brain into a vulnerable biochemical state.
> I refrained from posting in the acceptance of meds thread out of respect that it was a place where people did not want to hear about this.
>
> If this is a pro medication forum and I am way out of line and in the wrong place then the moderator can give me a tap on a shoulder and I will head for the nearest exit.
>
> HuxleyThis is a pro discussion forum. Thanks for allowing that thread to focus on one aspect of this issue. I'd like to ask others to allow this thread to focus on another aspect.
--
> much of what I hear from the anti-med movement sounds more like childish demands for certainty where no certainty exists.
>
> chujoe> empty ideas
>
> Elanor RooseveltPlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're bad people, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dan_MI on June 17, 2010, at 10:16:42
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 22:50:38
No, I'm saying be careful of some of the people who try to get you off meds or you'll end up like Lisa McPherson:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_McPherson
> > I don't know how frank I'm allowed to be here, but don't forget Scientology's founder, L. Ron Hubbard, was obsessed with discrediting psychiatry, and there is now a well-funded army of his followers trying to get people off meds and come in for auditing.
> >
>
> Hi Dan, so you are saying if I question my treatment then I am a scientologist?
> Thanks for re-enforcing my point.
>
Posted by bulldog2 on June 17, 2010, at 12:46:11
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 4:37:45
>
> What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE.
> If it was a biological illness then there would be biological evidence.
>
> If you were to argue that there is a biologial illness that we just are not advanced enough in our science to
> detect it well what makes you think we are advanced enough to treat it?
>
> How can you treat a chemical imbalance that you have not detected using drugs that you do not understand what they do?
>
> To me this seems the opposite of balance. When you are putting these drugs in your system, this is when you are creating
> an imbalance which leads to you being chronically ill.
>
> "For instance, Prozac and other SSRI antidepressants block
> the reuptake of serotonin . In order to cope with this hindrance of normal function, the
> brain tones down its whole serotonergic system . Neurons both release less serotonin and
> down-regulate (or decrease) their number of serotonin receptors . The density of serotonin
> receptors in the brain may decrease by 50% or more . As part of this adaptation
> process, Hyman noted, there are also changes in intracellular signaling pathways and
> gene expression . After a few weeks, Hyman concluded, the patient's brain is functioning
> in a manner that is "qualitatively as well as quantitatively different from the normal
> state"
>
> "The brain responds to neuroleptics-which block 70% to 90% of all D, dopamine
> receptors in the brain-as though they are a pathological insult . To compensate,
> dopaminergic brain cells increase the density of their D, receptors by 30% or more"
>
> Does that sound like a healthy balance? Is there any suprise that once you stop taking a neuroleptic or an AD that when this gross
> imbalance of receptors sends you a little nuts?
>
>
> Christ empowered if you dont mind me asking, how did you get off your meds? From what it sounds like you were on a or some APs?
>
> I have tossed the pill bottles in the bin. Then gone scrambling back to the bin a couple of days later. I am having an extremly hard time with zyprexa. Only been on it for a couple of years. Would you mid sharing your story of how you got off them?
>
>
>
>
>
>My thread was started on the premis that for some people meds are the only method that have worked. I have not stated that meds are the only path for all people. Again a thread based on those for whom meds have been the path that has led to remission.
Now something that has worked for ChristEmpowered or other people that is non med does not mean that meds are the incorrect path for those above. It simply means there is more than one way to solve a problem.
I think there is a lot of evidence that there is a biological basis for depression and other mental illness. It is the science of genetics. Like any part of the human anatomy the brain can be diseased and can be encoded via genetics and passed along. I saw it in my own family. People who have raised dogs for instance have pups born with behavioral problems. Forget the term chemical imbalance that is just something that someone coined. People pass along size, eye color, diabetes and all kinds of biological problems. Well the brain is an organ and how can one deny that it is not subject to disease.
By the way there are tcas, maois and other ads. Just because ssris are flawed doesn't mean all ads are flawed. Also all ads do not lead to mania and a than a diagnosis are bi polar.
What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE
Why do I have to recognize this? Because sometone said it?
Posted by violette on June 17, 2010, at 14:10:53
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Huxley, posted by 49er on June 16, 2010, at 17:22:17
That's great news, 49!
I didn't realize how important tapering can be, and it seems that antecdotal experiences are the proof (or is there research too?)
I quit medications from time to time, ranging from a few months to a year+, but then go back to them. When i start taking them again, i usually quit abruptly due to adverse side effects....wonder if i gave myself 'brain damage' from doing so. So-do you think tapering is key to being med-free? I have done without them most of my life and do not wish to take them due to side effects and long-term/unknown adverse effects.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
Posted by 49er on June 17, 2010, at 14:55:39
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » 49er, posted by violette on June 17, 2010, at 14:10:53
> That's great news, 49!
>
> I didn't realize how important tapering can be, and it seems that antecdotal experiences are the proof (or is there research too?)
>
> I quit medications from time to time, ranging from a few months to a year+, but then go back to them. When i start taking them again, i usually quit abruptly due to adverse side effects....wonder if i gave myself 'brain damage' from doing so. So-do you think tapering is key to being med-free? I have done without them most of my life and do not wish to take them due to side effects and long-term/unknown adverse effects.
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience!Hi Violet,
Thanks!
I don't think you give yourself brain damage but it certainly makes things alot tougher, not question.
I definitely think that tapering slowly is the key as your brain needs time to adjust to having less of the med.
The paxil progress boards, http://www.paxilprogress.org is a great source of support. That is where I learned to taper very slowly.
Unfortunately, there is little research on this. Alot of doctors still go by the drug company schedule which is way to fast in my opinion.
Feel free to babble mail me if you want to talk further.
49er
Posted by violette on June 17, 2010, at 16:41:43
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » violette, posted by 49er on June 17, 2010, at 14:55:39
Hey 49er (hopefully at least 49 more years of wellness!).
Thanks for the link and babblemail offer-I will likely take you up on it when I get the motivation to delve into those questions further.
:)
Posted by violette on June 17, 2010, at 18:59:55
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 19:21:50
Huxley,
That was a pretty cool post you wrote.
"Violette no offence taken at all, we all feel passionatly about this issue, it is very central to our lives."
Also-thanks for that comment-my intentions were quite the opposite of how the words could have been perceived. Sometimes I'm careful with wording, other times not. But I truly do welcome your opinion. Besides, I'd be bored to death if everyone thought 'the same'! (and wouldn't even be interested in reading the posts on this forum if that were the case)
I am interested in your opinions/ideas/ conclusions and do want you to encourage you to continue expressing them.
"They knew that some APs caused diabetes among other serious health problems and chose to withold that from the public and still push the drug onto them."
Hopefully Stephen Colbert will read this, and add a new idea to his Wheel to Solve the BP Crisis--stuff the hole with the world's supply of anti-psychotics. The oil will 'gain weight', then solidfy and stop flowing!
Only a joke, of course people can't live w/o them...
Posted by Huxley on June 17, 2010, at 22:25:19
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » Huxley, posted by violette on June 17, 2010, at 18:59:55
> Huxley,
>
> That was a pretty cool post you wrote.
>
> "Violette no offence taken at all, we all feel passionatly about this issue, it is very central to our lives."
>
> Also-thanks for that comment-my intentions were quite the opposite of how the words could have been perceived. Sometimes I'm careful with wording, other times not. But I truly do welcome your opinion. Besides, I'd be bored to death if everyone thought 'the same'! (and wouldn't even be interested in reading the posts on this forum if that were the case)
>
> I am interested in your opinions/ideas/ conclusions and do want you to encourage you to continue expressing them.
>
> "They knew that some APs caused diabetes among other serious health problems and chose to withold that from the public and still push the drug onto them."
>
> Hopefully Stephen Colbert will read this, and add a new idea to his Wheel to Solve the BP Crisis--stuff the hole with the world's supply of anti-psychotics. The oil will 'gain weight', then solidfy and stop flowing!
>
> Only a joke, of course people can't live w/o them...Hey Violette
Thanks, Dont worry about the wording, pretty easy to misunderstand someones meaning on an internet forum.
lol at putting zyprexa in the hole to stop the oil. I think you might be on to something there :)
I am not 100% anti psychiatry, I appreciate the effort that they are making to solve problems which ruin lives. I just feel they are a little bit trigger happy putting people
on psychiatric medications not fully knowing what they are doing when they are obviously very seriously effecting peoples lives. And also the fact that they are lying to people
when putting them on these medications.When serious adverse affects are reported they rubbish us and deny it is even happening. They took a good ten years to finally admit that there was a SSRI withdrawal syndrome.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident" ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Its a nice quote but obviously something needs to be the truth to get to the third stage.
I am from a family of 5 children. We are very close and I discuss my mental health with them.My 2 brothers suffered from similar anxiety and depression to me in there youth. I went down the path of getting medicated for it because I wanted a better quality of life. They both went on an AD for
a short period of time but discontinued them, im not sure why.My brothers grew out of their awkward teens, and grew into very successful confident content adults. They are still prone to anxiety and small bouts of depression which seems to be a biological factor but it could
be a an environmental thing as we grew up with the same experiences.I went down the path of being medicated. While they improved out of sight, I went steadily downwards on a bell like curve. I had a relationship breakup 2 years ago. My mind simply seemed unable to deal with it and I was put
on several more drugs.And now if you met myself and my brothers you would see the difference in where we are at in our lives.
I can tell you that there is a very marked difference in- Cognative ability
- emotional stability
- empathy
- Social skills
- Physical health
- appearance ( I look 5 years older than my older brother who is 4 years older than me)
So maybe I lucked out and I got the faulty wiring from my parents or maybe it is a direct example of the effect that psychiatric medication has on someones life.Where would I have been if I never took that pill?
Sadly, with us having only one brain, It's impossible to know the answer to that.
This is why I can relate to Robert Whitikers theories, because me and my brothers are a living case study for him.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 18, 2010, at 0:36:27
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bulldog2 on June 17, 2010, at 12:46:11
> I think there is a lot of evidence that there is a biological basis for depression and other mental illness.
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding the basis for depression to another thread. Please feel free to continue this discussion there. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20100615/msgs/951378.html
That'll be considered a new thread, so if you'd like to be notified by email of follow-ups to it, you'll need to request that there. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by bobman on June 19, 2010, at 19:36:08
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by SLS on June 16, 2010, at 11:55:43
> > What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE.
> > If it was a biological illness then there would be biological evidence.
>
> You may want to do some more reading.
>
> http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=depression+brain+changes&aq=8&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=depression+brain&gs_rfai=Csmb8IQAZTLO0MIK_tge8lqCwCgAAAKoEBU_Q1PH7&fp=610e7dd948e54cca
>
>
> - Scott
What you posted is nonsense. It has been exhaustively shown that there is no causative relation between neurotransmitter levels and mental illness, depression included. The studies I'm referencing are mostly competing studies on AD's, antipsychotics, and anticonvulsants. The information on this subject isn't vague; neurotransmitter variations aren't the cause of mental illness. Drugs of completely opposite mechanisms can cause the same relief of depression. For instance, serotonin re-uptake inhibitors and serotonin antagonists both relieve depression. Glutamate release inhibitors (decrease frequency of NMDAR evoked voltage gated currents), like lamictal, and glycine agonists (increase frequency of NMDAR voltage gated signalling) both show benefits for conditions like OCD.
Posted by bobman on June 19, 2010, at 20:35:12
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » SLS, posted by bobman on June 19, 2010, at 19:36:08
By the way, I'm also rejecting meds. It has been very very difficult to come off my lamictal + cymbalta combo. Lamictal I used for nearly 2 years, at dosages between 25mg and 275mg (averaged about 175mg for the first year, and about 75mg for the last 6-8 months, don't remember exactly).
I'm 24, and I've been clean from any pharmaceutical since February 14 2009. In response to a preceding post, I make a distinction between pharmaceutical psychotropics, and pscyhotropic substance from the earth. Yes, foods affect the psyche, but they aren't backed by thousands of years of safety testing. Herbs that our predecessors evolved alongside and used for sustenance I trust to restore me. Novel synthetic substances are flat out devastating on our bodies, as evidenced by the huge list of side effects attached to every psychotropic medication. It's not about trying to exist without ingesting anything, it's about using real solutions to live fully.
I now eat/make tea with gotu kola whole herb (4-9g/day), eat alleppe turmeric (~4-6g/day), lots of spinach, fish, broccoli. Other than that I study very hard, do my best to work out, although that has been difficult as I had complicated bilateral shoulder surgeries 9 months ago. I've reforged my relationship with my mother, and I go to school at a top 30 university full time. I worked before the injuries, but haven't since the surgeries. 2 months after I turned 18 I graduated from the #1 boarding school in the world. I had a bright future. Since I started psychotropic medications I have struggled; and I've lost a few years of my life.
To the OP, I also used AA to help my recovery, going to meetings for several months. I went through step 4 of the handbook(where you make amends with those you hurt), leaving the program shortly after because I didn't have a substance-addictive personality, and was beginning to feel out of place. Currently I'm looking at some mental-recovery, AA-like programs, though I haven't really done much about that recently. I spend most of my free time either reading or meditating (I meditated at a Vasrayana meditation center for 4 months before the surgeries, and learned a bit about it there), and figuring out what I'm going to do from here on. I read my high school's monthly alum journal, and see my friends in Harvard graduate programs, serving overseas, working as some of the highest-level 23-24 year old execs at Forbes 100 companies, and joining Oxford as Rhodes scholars. I'm just now regaining my mind enough to think about going into a more serious university major (I'm in business currently, want to go into chemistry and neuromedicine or genetics).
I know not everyone will agree with that view, but I've been through the western medical system, and the solutions it provides are clearly market-opportunity driven. Otherwise I couldn't imagine a justification for administering a medication to correct a neurotransmitter imbalance which is never tested for. Psychiartrists do not in practice use the scientific method in their treatment protocols. Psychiatry is clearly an observational medicine, with no falsifiable hypothesis, not unlike religion-based medicine. It is however, more dangerous, because in melding jargon backed by industry influenced studies, it carries a sway over people that today religion cannot. In fact, the blind faith people have in science is reminiscent of religious zealots, for both follow the word of an authority backed by assurances of truth. Very few mental patients have the capacity to understand the medical studies their treatment is based on. I've spent enough time reading studies on m.i treatments (armed with only 1 year of biomed eng. admittedly) to understand that they are, at best, shots in the dark with buckshot.
Sorry for the long post, it's just been hard to be "mentally-interesting" while having to deal with all sorts of cognitive issues that emerged after ~ 6 months of lamictal, still present (though receding) today. If you've read this entire post, thank you, if not, please take a few minutes if you can.
Posted by SLS on June 19, 2010, at 20:35:42
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » SLS, posted by bobman on June 19, 2010, at 19:36:08
> > > What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE.
> > > If it was a biological illness then there would be biological evidence.
> >
> > You may want to do some more reading.
> >
> > http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=depression+brain+changes&aq=8&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=depression+brain&gs_rfai=Csmb8IQAZTLO0MIK_tge8lqCwCgAAAKoEBU_Q1PH7&fp=610e7dd948e54cca
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
> What you posted is nonsense.I simply posted a Google search.
> The information on this subject isn't vague; neurotransmitter variations aren't the cause of mental illness.
Then, what is?
- Scott
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 0:52:38
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » bobman, posted by SLS on June 19, 2010, at 20:35:42
There is no good bio-mechanical answer if that's what you're looking for. Neurology is considered the frontier of medicine for a good reason. It's at the six-shooter/malaria blankets/paul bunion stage.
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