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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 64 to 88 of 118. Go back in thread:
Posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:31:34
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept - To SLS, posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:21:13
I think a lot of people exercise even though they hate doing it and as a result it makes them angry. That is one reason that I don't force myself to do it.
(Or perhaps angry people channel their energy into exercise as a means of sublimation.)
Posted by Ron Hill on December 2, 2009, at 1:13:21
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 6:29:01
Scott,
The following article purports to describe a condition where exercise is highly detrimental to the patient's wellbeing.
<Begin Quote from Article>
Free radicals are unstable molecules that move freely through the body and bond with other molecules in healthy cells, damaging chromosomes, enzymes, cell membranes and mitochondria through oxidization (the same process that makes iron rust).
The most damaging free radicals are produced within the cell's mitochondria. Believe it or not, exercise can actually speed up this process by as much as 200%. These added free radicals likely can't be quelled by our inherent antioxidant defenses, especially with today's sub-par diets. Instead they damage our cell systems resulting in decreased energy levels, accelerated aging and decreased mental performance.
<End Quote from Article>
http://www.howlifeworks.com/health_beauty/energy_boost_1245976566/?cid=7060bz
Overlook the product endorsement.
Who says I don't strive to provide balance?
:-)
-- Ron
dx: Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling and mild OCPD
600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
500 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
1.9 mg/day Deplin (taken with methyl B-12 and P-5-P)
Dark therapy via LowBlueLight glasses
Exercise: Brisk walk with dog on foothills trails, Ride, Lift, Swim, and Sauna-------------------------------------------
> Hi Ron.
> > I agree that the patient may be unable to exercise due to severe depression-induced anergy, amotivation, and anhedonia. However, let's not dismiss the fact that exercise improves brain functioning.> This feels like someone is trying to force a sugar pill down my throat. Give me something that works for ME.
> What is so hard about acknowledging the fact that exercise will not benefit a sizable percentage of people who suffer from depression? Let's not extol the virtues of exercise on physical fitness. That is irrelevant to this discussion.
> Regarding BDNF, if it were simply a matter of increasing its production, the only drug that would ever be needed to treat MDD and BD is lithium. Unfortunately, things are more complicated than that. Whatever benefits you think exercise has on brain function are either missing the target or not robust enough. Personally, I think it misses the target in a large number of people.> It is harmful when one person insists that another person is not experiencing what they "should" be, despite that person having met the criteria set by the first person.
> In 1982, some of the most progressive research psychiatrists in the world insisted that my ultra-rapid cycling was due to a variability in my processing of unidentified pscychological pathologies. I was incredulous that my treatment team was so blind, especially with Ronald R. Fieve's office door being located just down the hall. I had already tried psychotherapy for 6 years using 4 therapists. Then, imipramine showed me what consciousness is without depression. Fortunately, I didn't internalize my doctors' assertions that I was in need of more psychotherapy and that drug therapy was not indicated. If they only had opened their eyes and minds, they would have seen the striking regularity of my ultra-rapid cycling, and realized that they were looking at a biogenic affective illness. Fieve would have diagnosed me properly right away, but then I would have had to suffer through trials of rubidium. I knew.> For people whose depressions are areactive to exercise, we know. We just know.
> - Scott
Posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 2:07:41
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept - To SLS, posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:21:13
>It gives them a holier-than-thou attitude toward people that don't.
Aren't you taking this a bit too far. I have never heard of anyone with such a chip on their shoulder concerning exercise. Preaching something that millions of people are benefiting from in many different ways is not such a bad thing.
No one is saying they are better than you because they exercise and you don't. If you have had this experience with people that exercise this is unfortunate. Most people I know that exercise just do it and feel good about it and do not judge others or even care that others don't.
Posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 2:16:47
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:27:12
> > I have to admit I have been pushing exercise here. I have also come off as I am trying to win an argument. The same can be said for someone else(not you Scott). What matters to me most is that people would at least try to exercise if they can and hopefully feel good because of it.
> >
>
> I have a feeling you are referring to me, since I have gone out on a limb supporting the devil's advocate position. I'm afraid to say that you came across as a bit belligerent in your support of exercise, but I intuit that you are generally a decent person nonetheless.Thank you, yes I believe I am a decent person that sometimes feels so passionate about something I can get a bit carried away.
I was talking about you. I felt like you were coming off as a bit belligerent as well. I don't think there are any indecent people on this site. I understand your frustration and skepticism. I also believed you to be a descent person despite feeling like you were taking things too personally(I may have done this as well)and not having an open mind in this discussion.
Peace,
Morgan
Posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 2:22:53
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 2, 2009, at 1:13:21
Oxidative stress from exercise can be kept to a minimum by not over doing it. It can also be counteracted through proper diet.
Sorry I just had to say something. Exercise, if done properly, will never be bad for anyone at any age. Unless, of course, someone has some health condition that does not allow them to exercise.
Posted by SLS on December 2, 2009, at 5:26:59
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 2, 2009, at 1:13:21
It occurred to me that perhaps increased glutathione activity might offset the oxidative stress produced by exercise. Do you know anything about that? I just don't like the idea that a healthy body would leave such stressor events unchecked or offset by some other processes.
Just thinking.
- Scott
Posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 7:18:16
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 2:16:47
> I was talking about you. I felt like you were coming off as a bit belligerent as well. I don't think there are any indecent people on this site. I understand your frustration and skepticism. I also believed you to be a descent person despite feeling like you were taking things too personally(I may have done this as well)and not having an open mind in this discussion.
>
> Peace,
>
> Morgan
>
>I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I don't believe I wrote anything that wasn't based in cold, hard logic. It wasn't emotional. My beef is with the scientific evidence, not you.
Posted by Phillipa on December 2, 2009, at 22:10:20
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 7:18:16
Personally I like the Nike slogan "Just Do It". Works for me maybe not others. We are all so different. Phillipa
Posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 22:37:04
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 7:18:16
Didn't think you had a beef with me. Just felt like there was some emotion behind your statements that sounded personal. No dead horse beaten here.
Besides, what's wrong with expressing emotion or things being somewhat personal. Do we have to remain emotionless when reacting to others on this site?
Posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 22:38:35
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » mtdewcmu, posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 22:37:04
> Didn't think you had a beef with me. Just felt like there was some emotion behind your statements that sounded personal. No dead horse beaten here.
>
> Besides, what's wrong with expressing emotion or things being somewhat personal. Do we have to remain emotionless when reacting to others on this site?That is, as long as we are not mean to each other.
Posted by Ron Hill on December 3, 2009, at 0:03:17
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » Ron Hill, posted by SLS on December 2, 2009, at 5:26:59
Scott,
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/119181432/HTMLSTART
-- Ron
---------------------------------------
> It occurred to me that perhaps increased glutathione activity might offset the oxidative stress produced by exercise. Do you know anything about that? I just don't like the idea that a healthy body would leave such stressor events unchecked or offset by some other processes.
> Just thinking.
> - Scott
Posted by morganator on December 3, 2009, at 0:21:26
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 3, 2009, at 0:03:17
Drinking a good undenatured whey protein is one of or the best way to keep glutathione levels high. I use Jarrow's brand because it is affordable and is of the same quality of some other much more expensive undenatured whey proteins on the market(immunocal is one example).
It would be wise to drink something like this post-workout.
Posted by Ron Hill on December 3, 2009, at 0:57:28
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » Ron Hill, posted by morganator on December 3, 2009, at 0:21:26
Mr. Morgan,
Thanks. I'll look it up. I have stayed away from whey protein because I take 90 mg/day of Nardil and some of the amino acids might cause a hypertensive crisis.
Are any of the amino acids in whey protein contraindicated with phenelzine?
-- Ron
-------------------------------------
> Drinking a good undenatured whey protein is one of or the best way to keep glutathione levels high. I use Jarrow's brand because it is affordable and is of the same quality of some other much more expensive undenatured whey proteins on the market(immunocal is one example).
>
> It would be wise to drink something like this post-workout.
Posted by morganator on December 3, 2009, at 2:27:01
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » morganator, posted by Ron Hill on December 3, 2009, at 0:57:28
I Did a quick search. I think the only amino acids you have to worry about in whey are tryptophan and maybe tyrosine. I'm not sure if there is enough in a good serving of whey to produce a reaction.
Here are the ingredients in the Jarrow's Whey.
http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-100-Natural-Whey-Protein#IngredientFacts
It is the cystein in whey protein that raises glutathione levels. You can also take n acetyl cysteine-this may even be more effective. I prefer a more natural approach using undenatured whey.
Morgan
Posted by SLS on December 3, 2009, at 4:56:32
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 3, 2009, at 0:03:17
> Scott,
>
> http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/119181432/HTMLSTART
>
> -- Ron
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
> > It occurred to me that perhaps increased glutathione activity might offset the oxidative stress produced by exercise. Do you know anything about that? I just don't like the idea that a healthy body would leave such stressor events unchecked or offset by some other processes.
>
> > Just thinking.
>
> > - Scott
>
>
Google.I scare myself sometimes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioxidant#Physical_exercise
The problem with ingesting glutathione is that it does not readily cross the blood-brain barrier.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 3, 2009, at 5:26:06
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » Ron Hill, posted by SLS on December 3, 2009, at 4:56:32
> The problem with ingesting glutathione is that it does not readily cross the blood-brain barrier.
I guess that is not terribly relevant to exercise. Does anyone know if serum glutathione is brought into the mitochondria of skeletal muscles?
- Scott
Posted by Ron Hill on December 3, 2009, at 8:59:28
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » Ron Hill, posted by SLS on December 3, 2009, at 4:56:32
> I scare myself sometimes.
Yeah, yeah; I know you're good. Now get over it!
(-;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioxidant#Physical_exercise
Scott, do you think this is part of the reason that exercise adversely affects you?-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on December 3, 2009, at 9:01:21
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » Ron Hill, posted by morganator on December 3, 2009, at 2:27:01
Thanks again, Morgan.
Posted by SLS on December 3, 2009, at 10:19:42
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 3, 2009, at 8:59:28
> > I scare myself sometimes.
> Yeah, yeah; I know you're good. Now get over it!LOL
> Scott, do you think this is part of the reason that exercise adversely affects you?
No. One of my doctors told me that intense exercise depletes the brain of amines. I don't know how I feel about that. The guy was brilliant for his time, though. I have to admit that his words are always in the back of my mind when I begin to respond to a treatment. I just don't want to do anything to jeopardize an antidepressant response.
For now, I really don't think that weight-lifting makes me feel worse. It just doesn't make me feel any better. It is nice to accomplish something positive. It is still a push to get started, though.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on December 3, 2009, at 19:14:27
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » Ron Hill, posted by SLS on December 3, 2009, at 10:19:42
Do you feel that the message is always with you and is one you need to get out of your mine then maybe treatments work better. I know I have some messages can't delete and they harm me emensly. Like one from a therapist who said you must leave your home daily or you won't be able to. Haven't stayed home a day in two years. I need to exorcise this message. Phillipa
Posted by morganator on December 5, 2009, at 2:50:25
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Phillipa on December 3, 2009, at 19:14:27
http://www.psycheducation.org/hormones/Insulin/exercise.htm
Just more support for exercise and exercise combined with medication. I know I know, just when we thought this thread had finally fizzled out. Sorry just came across this.
Posted by SLS on December 5, 2009, at 7:49:04
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by morganator on December 5, 2009, at 2:50:25
Would it be so incomprehensible if, in real life, some people with depression were not to improve with the application of exercise? It has been my observation that, as unfortunate as it may be, this is a fact of life. What is the point of attempting to globalize a theory if there are obviously so many people who describe exceptions to it? As foreign an experience as it may be for me, I can still accept that some people with depression benefit from exercise. What is the emotional investment in wanting to have people believe that exercise is a panacea? It is not.
- Scott
Posted by morganator on December 5, 2009, at 17:41:27
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by SLS on December 5, 2009, at 7:49:04
I understand your frustration.
So far half of the people that have responded on this thread have expressed how important exercise was now or at one point in the past for maintaining their mental health. That is a sample of half of the people on psycho-babble where most have suffered or are still sufferingfrom severe depression or anxiety. Remember also that this is not just a website focused on depression sufferers but anxiety sufferers as well. So imagine how many people out there that have mild to moderate depression and are not on psycho-babble, are possibly benefitting from some form of exercise.
>As foreign an experience as it may be for me, I can still accept that some people with depression benefit from exercise.
You say "some" people out there may benefit. How do you know it is "some"? I don't mean this as an insult-I am surprised that you, obviously having a quite a high I.Q. and analytical ability, do not see, with all of the scientific and anecdotal evidence, how many forms of exercise may be an integral part of helping millions of people with their depression and anxiety.
Also, I never said that exercise was a panacea. I have already emphasized that it may not help at all if other treatments, specifically medication, are not working. If you go back you will find that a few people who posted on this thread expressed that exercise was only helpful when a medication or other treatment was making a significant impact. Dr. Phelps and I am sure most doctors sees exercise as just one of many approaches.
And again I will emphasize the effects of exercise on neurogenesis. Chronic depression and anxiety does cause neurons to die off in the hippocamus, a part of our brain that is essential for learning, spatial memory, and long-term memory(I know you already know this). There is also evidence of exercise having a positive impact on serotonin and dopamine. And we all know about the effect exercise has on positive endorphins. Even if it is not having a major impact on our depression or anxiety, at least for that 30 mins to an hour of exercise we are doing something good for our brain. If we do end up still feeling depressed, hopefully we at least feel good during and shortly after exercising.
So, if you can exercise, why not? And if you do, you may not truly benefit from it if you don't try meditative stretching.
I intended on my last post being possibly my last in this thread. And if I did post again I would have probably not written such a long one. I guess you got me going. Sorry if I am annoying anyone with this. I just think it is a bit ridiculous to come off as being so opposed to the idea that exercise could benefit millions who suffer from anxiety and depression. And if exercise can help those that are finding 70 percent relief from their medications, why not make sure that people know it is a possible option???
I understand exercise has never helped you and may never help you. I also understand that it is important for the people that have not benefitted from exercise to not feel that they are the only ones.
With doctors, psychiatrists, and therapists all emphasizing the potential benefits of exercise and the scientific and anecdotal evidence, it is hard to deny the fact that exercise may benefit a large portion of the population of depression and anxiety sufferers.
You did start this thread with the study about the combination of medication and exercise didn't you?
You come on hear and talk about medication combinations that you believe in and have worked for you in the past. I believe in the combination of medication and exercise for those that can get themselves to do it. Zyprexa is always coming on here and pushing the benefits of Zyprexa because it has worked so well for him, despite that fact that many have had bad reactions to it and gain tons of weight on it(I do think that many have a need for Zyprexa and will benefit from it). I can't think of any possible harmful effects that proper moderate exercise and meditative stretching will have on someone. So, what is the harm in giving people reasons to try it and do it???
I know this is the medication page on psycho-babble so I will never mention exercise again. Besides, I have repeated myself a few times and could not say any more about the subject.
Peace,
Morgan
Posted by RocketMan on December 5, 2009, at 17:48:55
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by morganator on December 5, 2009, at 17:41:27
Physical exercise may be one form of therapy. Lets not forget the importance of exercising the mind, which may be as simple as participating on chat sites, such as we are currently now doing. Reading a book, working on puzzles etc, all great forms of mental stimulation. But, as for anything, the individual must be accepting.
Rick
Posted by SLS on December 5, 2009, at 19:15:11
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by morganator on December 5, 2009, at 17:41:27
> You did start this thread with the study about the combination of medication and exercise didn't you?
What does that tell you?
I may be bipolar, but my thinking is not.
- Scott
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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