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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 72. Go back in thread:
Posted by Andy Behrman on May 29, 2009, at 17:33:04
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » Andy Behrman, posted by ricker on May 29, 2009, at 16:37:39
I'm glad that this video has sparked debate - - it's healthy and it's necessary!
We have all suffered from side effects of drugs that have been prescribed for us by our doctors who we trust.
However, Abilify, in my opinion, has caused me more damage and put my life at risk, more so than any other of the 38 drugs that I have taken. And my own doctor, Dr. Mark Frye, not at the Mayo Clinic, was aware of the trouble it was causing me. However, he was the medical consultant to Bristol Myers Squibb for Abilify.
Not to mention, Bristol-Myers Squibb, has clearly acted unethically since Abilify has been on the market (Note: They marketed this drug for kids before it was approved by the FDA for kids) and they have been extremely clever in "slanting" studies on the side effects of Abilify (namely akathasia).
Which is why, I think that a video like this, is important to put out there and why it's out there and causing so much discussion, not just on the internet but in print and soon the issue of Abilify and side effects will make even larger headlines than it made being on the cover of the Wall Street Journal two weeks ago.
This is a wake up call to companies like Bristol Myers Squibb.
Again, the video link is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VzMZX4nBz8
I urge you to pass this around to people whom you care about!
Posted by greywolf on May 29, 2009, at 17:40:47
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by garnet71 on May 29, 2009, at 17:10:59
> I don't feel like watching the video, but for the discussion, I'd say doctors are more likely to kill us than the drugs. Psychotropic treatments need to be managed effectively, and that's not happening as much as it should be, and sometimes hardly at all. Our policies and health care system contribute to deaths as well. I think it's a lot more complex than saying drugs cause death. They do sometimes, but so does food (i.e.: peanuts can kill someone with a peanut allergy) and lots of other things....Handguns kill too, but a human being has to be operating it.
>
> Doctors need to be more intensive with patients, imo. I've been prescribed many meds, and never was warned of anything with the exception of addiction with benzos. Oh-there was one-one doctor who I tried once and never returned to said simply "call me if you get a rash", but that's the most I've heard about adverse effets from a doctor regarding psychotropics. He didn't tell me you could become severely ill from and even die from the reaction that causes that rash-I looked it up on the internet, but refused to take the drug with that kind of management.
>
> 2 centsI'm not sure that you can generalize from that experience. At every single monthly visit, my psychiatrist discusses the extent of my compliance (he wants to know off the top of my head what and when I'm taking meds to see if it is consistent with his directions), quizzes me regarding side effects, reminds me of the Parnate dietary restrictions and interactions, even asks what the pharmacy is charging me for my prescriptions. No refill prescriptions allowed--he goes through each med and what I need at every visit.
Every two months or so, we go over my blood work and I answer about 50 lifestyle questions related to my VNS. He then discusses the progress of my CBT. Then, my GP and my CBT therapist get summary reports concerning how I'm doing.
He's about as thorough as they come. I have to imagine that there are a lot of other psychiatrists out there who take things equally seriously.
Greywolf
Posted by SLS on May 29, 2009, at 17:57:02
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by greywolf on May 29, 2009, at 17:40:47
> He's about as thorough as they come. I have to imagine that there are a lot of other psychiatrists out there who take things equally seriously.
Yeah. Mine is pretty good, too.I think you struck a healthy chord here. There are good ones as there are bad ones. This is true of doctors, nurses, and car salesmen.
It gets old.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 29, 2009, at 18:07:05
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Andy Behrman on May 29, 2009, at 17:33:04
> Again, the video link is:
>>
> I urge you to pass this around to people whom you care about!
I would not send this to anyone, especially to people whom I care about!I believe it to be dysinformation.
I am sorry that you had a bad experience with Abilify.
You haven't mentioned just what that bad experience was. So... What was it?
- Scott
Posted by bulldog2 on May 29, 2009, at 18:24:30
In reply to Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Andy Behrman on May 29, 2009, at 4:24:52
> Just watch this 60 second video:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VzMZX4nBz8I find it amazing that people are shocked that pschotropic drugs have side effects. Do you know how many people die from tylenol overdoses that destroy the liver or thousands who die from advil and bleeding ulcers? Yet most of us continue to take these drugs. So what is unique about psych drugs that we attack them because they have se. Our physicians are trained in allopathic medicine and primary use meds to treat disease. Most of them are potentially dangerous and have certain sides.
Posted by garnet71 on May 29, 2009, at 19:20:35
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by greywolf on May 29, 2009, at 17:40:47
Obviously, and I thought it was inferred from my statement, only the doctors that are not intensive, or less intensive, need to be more thorough.
Sounds like you are lucky to have a good one.
Posted by greywolf on May 29, 2009, at 19:28:37
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » greywolf, posted by garnet71 on May 29, 2009, at 19:20:35
> Obviously, and I thought it was inferred from my statement, only the doctors that are not intensive, or less intensive, need to be more thorough.
>
> Sounds like you are lucky to have a good one.You're certainly right on that.
Greywolf
Posted by garnet71 on May 29, 2009, at 19:38:32
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by SLS on May 29, 2009, at 17:57:02
Well it's not "old" news, or "old" complaints, or whatever you meant--in my case--considering I only found out recently other PDocs were so different from the ones I've had. I had never used the internet to investigate my psychiatric treatment until recently, so it's pretty new to me.
It may be tiresome for you to hear, but I had only recently discovered the ways in which life has been adversely--and unnecessarily--affected for years as a result of substandard medical care. I am positive that my life would not be currently hanging by a thread had I had decent medical care over the past few years.
It's a lot different than having a bad car salesman...While not personal, it degrades my situation to compare my mental health and well being, and all the suffering I've experienced as a result of poor care, to bad service from a car salesman. You can't compare someone's medical care with purchasing a car.
"There are good ones as there are bad ones. This is true of doctors, nurses, and car salesmen.
It gets old."
Posted by yxibow on May 29, 2009, at 20:06:45
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » Andy Behrman, posted by SLS on May 29, 2009, at 5:12:17
> > Just watch this 60 second video:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VzMZX4nBz8
>
>
> One should be just as cautious when evaluating the accuracy or varacity of anti-drug portrayals as he is with pro-drug portrayals.I agree
> I have been taking Abilify for a number of years. The only side effect I can report is weight gain. I did experience what appeared to be mild akathisia during the first week of treatment, though.
It caused far more akathisia than I figured giving its supposed push/pull action at D2. I couldn't continue to take it, but these are standard side effects for basically -all- antipsychotics.
> Are these drugs killing us? Life is a fatal condition. I don't think most of the antidepressants will accelerate that process.Exactly -- life by definition is fatal. Its hard to think that, and maybe its maudlin, but I hope I get through my therapy, recognize that, and enjoy what is a really unexplainable condition, namely all of us.
> At this point, it appears that none of the standard antidepressant drugs used for 20-40 years have produced an observable increase in the rate of fatality. At the very least, such a thing has not been obvious.In fact they might have produced a -decrease- in fatality from suicide despite side effects.
-- Jay
Posted by emme on May 29, 2009, at 21:25:33
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Relapse on May 29, 2009, at 10:10:13
> I will take my chances on the drugs and there various sides. I just hate the side effects I get with untreated severe anxiety/depression, lie face down in a pool of sweat then die.
> DaveWell said. :)
Let's see...my situation is:
No meds (or the wrong meds) = unspeakable psychic agony, anxiety, inability to make decisions, inability to concentrate, apathy, oh and did I mention unspeakable psychic agony?
With meds (Lamictal + Abilify) = freedom from aforementioned psychic agony, ability to perform at a good job, exercise, take recreational classes, enjoy friends.
No-brainer. I'm extremely grateful. It took years.
emme
Posted by Neal on May 29, 2009, at 22:19:48
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » Andy Behrman, posted by SLS on May 29, 2009, at 5:52:44
i didn't read all the replies but; where are the million-dollar payouts we should be reading about in the newspapers?
in this litigious society, if there was one iota of evidence of someone's dying from ADs, it would be broadcast from coast-to-coast in 2 seconds, followed by thousands of lawsuits filed the next day.
Posted by jane d on May 29, 2009, at 23:27:30
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Andy Behrman on May 29, 2009, at 17:33:04
How about summarizing the video for those of us who can't (or won't) watch utube instead of just posting the link over again?? I can't tell whether it's about ADs in general, APs or just Abilify from the comments posted. Or what claims it made.
Posted by jane d on May 29, 2009, at 23:39:59
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Neal on May 29, 2009, at 22:19:48
> i didn't read all the replies but; where are the million-dollar payouts we should be reading about in the newspapers?
>
> in this litigious society, if there was one iota of evidence of someone's dying from ADs, it would be broadcast from coast-to-coast in 2 seconds, followed by thousands of lawsuits filed the next day.Not true! But if you'd like this to be true bug your legislator to outlaw "gag agreements" in court settlements as being against the public interest. Right now you just can't tell whether or not there are big payoffs being made to keep complaints quiet in all sorts of industries. It's become standard to pay off plaintiffs providing they agree never to disclose the amount of settlement or even that they had a complaint in the first place. Good for the plaintiff, good for the offending company, but definately bad for all the rest of us. And an abuse of the court systems we all pay for.
Posted by SLS on May 30, 2009, at 5:48:28
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by bulldog2 on May 29, 2009, at 18:24:30
> I find it amazing that people are shocked that pschotropic drugs have side effects. Do you know how many people die from tylenol overdoses that destroy the liver or thousands who die from advil and bleeding ulcers? Yet most of us continue to take these drugs. So what is unique about psych drugs that we attack them because they have se. Our physicians are trained in allopathic medicine and primary use meds to treat disease. Most of them are potentially dangerous and have certain sides.
Psychotropic drugs are as stigmatized as the illnesses they treat. Many people are passionate in their belief that biological mental illnesses do not exist, and that psychotropics are cop-outs or bandaids that don't really work, only cause side effects, and make drug companies money. To these people, depression is something only the weak cannot work past. It is a matter of psychological abnormality, therefore, drugs are not necessary and nothing but a hoax. To many of these people, the use of these drugs is a conspiracy.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 30, 2009, at 5:57:00
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » SLS, posted by garnet71 on May 29, 2009, at 19:38:32
> Well it's not "old" news, or "old" complaints
No. It really is old, very old. It is so old that I am often resigned to just let the people who promulgate this dysinformation disappear of their own accord.
> or whatever you meant
That's what I meant. It is really old. Just look at the Psycho-Babble archives if you would like to debate how old it is.
> --in my case--considering I only found out recently other PDocs were so different from the ones I've had.
Now you have found out how old it is. That, indeed, is important information to have.
> I had never used the internet to investigate my psychiatric treatment until recently, so it's pretty new to me.
What are you talking about? I guess we crossed themes. The theme of this thread had been about the video and what it represented. That's what I was talking about, anyway.
> It may be tiresome for you to hear
And if it is, you will, of course, allow me to be tired.
This is not about you.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 30, 2009, at 6:16:02
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » Neal, posted by jane d on May 29, 2009, at 23:39:59
> > i didn't read all the replies but; where are the million-dollar payouts we should be reading about in the newspapers?
> >
> > in this litigious society, if there was one iota of evidence of someone's dying from ADs, it would be broadcast from coast-to-coast in 2 seconds, followed by thousands of lawsuits filed the next day.
>
> Not true! But if you'd like this to be true bug your legislator to outlaw "gag agreements" in court settlements as being against the public interest. Right now you just can't tell whether or not there are big payoffs being made to keep complaints quiet in all sorts of industries. It's become standard to pay off plaintiffs providing they agree never to disclose the amount of settlement or even that they had a complaint in the first place. Good for the plaintiff, good for the offending company, but definately bad for all the rest of us. And an abuse of the court systems we all pay for.You are right about the way our litigation system can work.
Slightly off topic:
It is unfortunate that the medical and pharmaceutical investigative systems, as they have been, are riddled with conflicts of interest. However, a conflict of interest does not de facto indicate conspiracy or a breach of morals. It does not indicate that people are lying and covering things up. It does not indicate that the results of investigations of the objects of study are invalid. It is only recently that it is being questioned that there might be a breach of ethics. It is very disappointing to learn about these financial arrangements that are conflicts of interest and give the impression of wrong-doing.
I would add that most of the medical people made visible by the media to establish a case for investigative inpropriety are, in fact, our most important contributors. These are the people whom are most likely to get us well.
- Scott
Posted by garnet71 on May 30, 2009, at 12:07:04
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » garnet71, posted by SLS on May 30, 2009, at 5:57:00
Well comparing those of us who have suffered from poor health care from doctors with a bad car salesman really does diminish our experiences, it's not much different from someone telling you that your experience you choose to discuss is "old and tiresome" for whatever opinion, ignorance, or lack of empathy that person might have of your situation, and to just suck it up instead, discouraging you from talking about whatever is important to you. Treatment-resistant depression has also been around and discussed for a long time-is it a good idea for someone to come along and say that issue is old and tiresome to hear about?
Just like you suffered over the years from your situation, so have people with poor heatlh care. I don't see why talking about your situation has more merit than others talking about "bad doctors". It greatly affects people's lives just the same.
The difference may be that suffering for years with substandard medical care is preventable, at least in part, and is totally unnecessary--and should be discussed so that others can learn how to identify and overcome the issue, not be told it's old and tiresome to hear about. After having 3 doctors who used the same scope of treatment, it was easy to mistakenly believe my treatment was standard psychiatric protocol.
I've read many posts here about poor pharmaceutical management, and have never heard anyone identify until recently that they have not been prescribed effective medications because of the scope of a doctor's malpractice insurance. I live in a state with major malpractice insurance issues, have had 3 PDocs who treated accordingly; if you don't live in my state, or never had military health insurance, you may not be able to relate.
Maybe because you have good doctors you are just ignorant to what people go through who don't have health insurance and/or limited resources?
I was responding to what you said in your post, not the video.
"There are good ones as there are bad ones. This is true of doctors, nurses, and car salesmen.It gets old."
Posted by ricker on May 30, 2009, at 14:12:50
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by garnet71 on May 30, 2009, at 12:07:04
> After having 3 doctors who used the same scope of treatment, it was easy to mistakenly believe my treatment was standard psychiatric protocol.
I consider myself fortunate in that Canadian health care is quite fair to all it's citizens, "rich and poor".
I've had "good" pdoc's and I've had what "I" consider as "bad".
It does not mean that the "good" Dr., writing the script for paxil, seroquel or lamictal, will make me better, just because he's intelligent and compassionate?
The drugs work the same regardless of who's prescribing. Sometimes I think the placebo effect kicks in when one believes the source of their treatment will work, cause the doc is "really good".
Sadly, from my 22 years of experience, it doesn't work that way. :-(
Rick
Posted by bulldog2 on May 30, 2009, at 14:39:43
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » garnet71, posted by ricker on May 30, 2009, at 14:12:50
> > After having 3 doctors who used the same scope of treatment, it was easy to mistakenly believe my treatment was standard psychiatric protocol.
>
> I consider myself fortunate in that Canadian health care is quite fair to all it's citizens, "rich and poor".
>
> I've had "good" pdoc's and I've had what "I" consider as "bad".
>
> It does not mean that the "good" Dr., writing the script for paxil, seroquel or lamictal, will make me better, just because he's intelligent and compassionate?
>
> The drugs work the same regardless of who's prescribing. Sometimes I think the placebo effect kicks in when one believes the source of their treatment will work, cause the doc is "really good".
>
> Sadly, from my 22 years of experience, it doesn't work that way. :-(
>
> Rick
>
>
>
I have come to the conclusions most docs are idiots. I have two dogs and take them to veteranians and most of them are also idiots.Apparently most are smart in the sense they could read books and pass their tests and become docs and vets. But what most of the lack is the ability to do analytical thinking and figure out solutions. As a former computer programmer I was trained how to look for solutions to problems. I took my dog to a veterinarian years ago and he used to ask my my opinion!! I see the same problem in human medicine. and it's not just p-docs. I recently had am mri done on a painful hip and they discovered a torn muscle that will have to be surgically repaired. I've been complaining of this problem for over two years!! It took all this time and I finally told a doc I wanted an mri and they found the problem. What a bunch of idiots that I saw. I had to tell them what to do...
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2009, at 17:01:53
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » Neal, posted by jane d on May 29, 2009, at 23:39:59
> Not true! But if you'd like this to be true bug your legislator to outlaw "gag agreements" in court settlements as being against the public interest. Right now you just can't tell whether or not there are big payoffs being made to keep complaints quiet in all sorts of industries. It's become standard to pay off plaintiffs providing they agree never to disclose the amount of settlement or even that they had a complaint in the first place. Good for the plaintiff, good for the offending company, but definately bad for all the rest of us. And an abuse of the court systems we all pay for.
I've got a better idea. Stop allowing jury trials, and limit awards, for civil actions. Like that woman who won gazillions from MacDonalds because she spilled her coffee in her own lap. That was a travesty of justice.
Gag orders can only happen when the parties settle before a trial. And one of the biggest problems with most civil trials is the fact they are decided by juries, and subsequently, their non-sensical awards.
There is no way the FDA would hide mortality information. The mere fact that there are settlements on allegations of serious harm is not evidence that serious harm is attributable to the defendant(s). At that point, it's not about evidence, it's about managing costs.
Lar
Posted by Andy Behrman on May 30, 2009, at 17:05:47
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » jane d, posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2009, at 17:01:53
But the drug companies hide not only side effects but mortality statistics during clinical trials - - not to mention slanting their studies to lessen what side effects "look like."
Bristol Myers Squibb, and how they handled their wonder drug, Abilify, is a perfect example.
And that's why it's making news!
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2009, at 19:23:47
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Andy Behrman on May 30, 2009, at 17:05:47
> But the drug companies hide not only side effects but mortality statistics during clinical trials - - not to mention slanting their studies to lessen what side effects "look like."
That is not only an extraordinary accusation, I can provide circumstances where it is absolutely false. In fact, I know of situations where drug critics are the ones that have slanted what side effects look like, to create the perception of harms where none were shown to exist.
> Bristol Myers Squibb, and how they handled their wonder drug, Abilify, is a perfect example.
It is not a perfect example of anything. You, sir, are biased by the fallacy of inductive generalization. Even if your experience is accurately portrayed in your video, it is not reasonable to generalize from such a specific situation to the broader population of others treated with this specific drug. It's the inverse corollary of the truism that you cannot apply statistics to an individual. You cannot generalize from a specific case, because it cannot be ascertained how frequent that unique response might be. That same logical knife cuts both ways.
> And that's why it's making news!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VzMZX4nBz8It is not news. It is propaganda.
Take it elsewhere, dude.
Lar
Posted by Andy Behrman on May 30, 2009, at 19:31:16
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » Andy Behrman, posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2009, at 19:23:47
It has been discussed in a national forum like the Wall Street Journal. It has been discussed on more than thirty websites. It has been mentioned in newspapers across the country. This makes me believe that it is news.
The news - - and it's actually old news - - is that Bristol Myers Squibb knowingly marketed Abilify for young children before it was approved by the FDA. For that, they paid the United States government $515 million. The fact is that Sonia Choi, the spokeswoman for BMS, denies knowing that akathasia is a side effect of Abilify.
And honestly, the video is important because it brings the subject of pharmaceutical companies and side effects into the mainstream - - not just on this website but on the front page of the Wall Street Journal.
And this issue will blow up in the coming weeks and months.
Again, it's time for big pharma to see this as a wake up call.
Is there something so wrong with bringing this issue out into the open in a forum like youtube?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VzMZX4nBz8
I wouldn't have produced this video if I hadn't thought it was an important issue.
And there are plenty of other videos on the interent on the same subject.
Posted by bleauberry on May 30, 2009, at 19:59:20
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Andy Behrman on May 30, 2009, at 17:05:47
> But the drug companies hide not only side effects but mortality statistics during clinical trials - - not to mention slanting their studies to lessen what side effects "look like."
>
> Bristol Myers Squibb, and how they handled their wonder drug, Abilify, is a perfect example.
>Yeah, and suicides happened in Cymbalta clinical trials. Unless someone is actively looking for them, they are well hidden. I suspect a fair share of negative things have happened in most drug trials. Hey, Paxil had just as many failed trials as positive ones. Only the positive ones were submitted to the FDA. And even those weren't very convincing without some twisting of words and numbers. Like all meds actually.
Hey, some people do awesome on meds and their lives are magically turned around. And we don't hear much about those, so it goes both ways.
With all meds, and herbs, and supplements, and vitamins, and minerals, there is a risk/benefit decision to make. The wrong substance at the wrong dose at the wrong time for the wrong person can do great harm.
While aspirin is good at lowering the risk of heart attacks when taken low dose daily, aspirin has killed people.
Tylenol kills people, probably a lot more than Abilify ever will. Just to put it in perspective.
It's all about risk versus benefit. There is always the risk that any med...prescription or OTC...can aggravate an existing problem or an unseen unsuspected problem, create a new problem, or cause some mysterious thing to happen that no one can explain. That's just the way it is.
Back to the title of the thread, "Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?", I would say to a very tiny percentage, yes. We're talking real small numbers. More likely however, I believe it is the illnesses we have that are causing our depression and anxiety, illnesses that are not recognized, hunted for, tested for, or suspected, that are killing us.
Posted by Andy Behrman on May 30, 2009, at 20:01:53
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by bleauberry on May 30, 2009, at 19:59:20
I agree that depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and other mental illnesses kill.
But it's NOT accpetable that one person dies from a drug like Abilify - - and BMS has to be accountable.
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