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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phillipa on March 11, 2009, at 23:35:17
Never even heard of this as a side effect but read if want ignore if desired. Phillipa
Lyme Disease and Violence: No Link
from WebMD a health information Web site for patients
Daniel J. DeNoon
Information from Industry
Assess clinically focused product information on Medscape.
Click Here for Product Infosites Information from Industry.
March 10, 2009 Lyme disease can't make a person violent or psychotic, infectious disease specialists tell WebMD.According to media reports, the family and lawyer of a man accused of the murder of an Illinois pastor blame the man's deteriorating mental health on longstanding Lyme disease.
The experts who spoke with WebMD have not reviewed the man's medical records and are familiar with the case only through media reports. But speaking in general terms, the experts reject the idea that violent behavior can be blamed on Lyme disease.
"I don't know of any convincing evidence that Lyme disease can cause violence or psychosis," Gary Wormser, MD, tells WebMD. Wormser is director of the Lyme Disease Center and chief of infectious diseases at New York Medical College in Valhalla, N.Y.
"We can be clear Lyme disease does not lead to psychotic and violent behaviors," William Schaffner, MD, tells WebMD. Schaffner is president-elect of the National Foundation for Infectious Diseases and chair of preventive medicine and infectious diseases at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tenn.
In an August 2008 article -- written before the alleged attack by Terry J. Sedlacek -- the St. Louis Post-Dispatch chronicled the man's decade-long mental health problems. The article suggested his symptoms were due to Lyme disease.
But such "chronic" Lyme disease is "not a sound diagnosis" for anyone, Schaffner says. Untreated Lyme disease certainly can go on for a very long time. And Lyme disease damage doesn't necessarily go away with treatment. But Schaffner says there is little evidence that prolonged antibiotic therapy -- or other radical, unproven treatments -- benefits patients.
"The history I've gleaned from the news reports suggests this man was being treated for supposed chronic Lyme disease, a diagnosis that needs to be looked at with great skepticism," Schaffner says. "If this was a misfocused attention on Lyme disease, his real underlying problem was not given attention and therapy. Because Lyme disease, in whatever manifestation, does not lead to violent and psychotic behavior."
Wormser has actually looked for Lyme disease in Missouri, near the Illinois border where the man was supposed to have contracted the disease.
"In that part of Illinois, that this person lived in, it would be almost unheard of to have true Lyme disease," he says. "But so many people get misdiagnosed because of doctors sending samples to labs that give unreliable results. I would not be surprised if this individual were misdiagnosed."
But even if the man did have Lyme disease, the evidence suggests it could not have been responsible for his recent behavior.
Wormser actually tested psychiatric inpatients in his area, which is in the heart of the U.S. region most affected by Lyme disease. Patients suffering psychiatric illnesses were no more likely to have present or past Lyme disease than other area residents.
That's not to say that Lyme disease can't affect the brain. It can.
"Like most manifestations of this disease, neurological symptoms are hard to recognize and manage," Schaffner says. "You can have an encephalitis picture that almost always occurs with damage to one of the nerves to the face. This causes paralysis of part of the face. These are part of the later manifestations of Lyme disease."
"There is no question that Lyme disease has neurological manifestations," Wormser says. "But frank psychosis to the point of killing someone would be really far fetched. It is really clear they are dealing with a situation that probably wasn't Lyme disease to begin with."
SOURCES:
Gary Wormser, MD, director, Lyme Disease Center; chief of infectious diseases, New York Medical College, Valhalla, N.Y.
William Schaffner, MD, president-elect, National Foundation for Infectious Diseases; chair of preventive medicine and infectious diseases, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tenn.
Jonsson, G. "Lyme Disease Can Be Difficult," St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Aug. 8, 2008.
Wormser, G.P. Mt. Sinai Journal of Medicine, November 1997; vol 64: pp 409-412.
Philipp, M.T. Clinical and Vaccine Immunology, October 2006; vol 13: pp 1170-
Posted by bleauberry on March 12, 2009, at 5:23:50
In reply to Another Lymes Article Interesting slant., posted by Phillipa on March 11, 2009, at 23:35:17
This article is so sad. Not because of anything it has to say about violence or psychosis from Lyme, but just the multitude of generalized unproven falsehood statements made in the article directed at Lyme overall. Mankind arrogance and ignorance on display.
The authors involved fall in the camp that I call the "I have spoken"s. They have self proclaimed themselves Gods with opinions that could not possibly be wrong.
As a sidenote, my LLMD is going real careful with me based on his experience with psych patients. Example. A lady with a history of psychosis began treatment with antibiotics. He did not know she had a psych history. She had not shared that with him. On normal doses of antibiotics, she went into a full blown psychotic/depressive attack that landed her in the psych ward. He immediately withdrew antibiotics, to restart later at much more conservative cautious dosing.
While in the hospital, she got a sinus infection. An unknowing doctor on duty gave her an antibiotic, the same antibiotic. She again flipped out right in the psych ward.
Hey, you start killing things that are embedded in the nervous system, of course there could be psychiatric ramifications of all kinds, good or bad, unpredictable. Not to mention the Herxheimer reaction. Not to mention how out of balance the hormones and immune system are, and how the antibiotic will tilt that in one direction or another, with the re-adjustment and adaptation phase following. Lyme is extremely complicated.
For anyone to not acknowledge that is putting their own stupidity on display.
Posted by Phillipa on March 12, 2009, at 12:36:28
In reply to Re: Another Lymes Article Interesting slant., posted by bleauberry on March 12, 2009, at 5:23:50
Wow I wonder why the put a pic line in me and gave me Rocephin IV and then the biaxin xl three months at a time then off and wait then antibiotics again. Why did I feel better on the antibiotics with anxiety history? I don't get it? Love Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on March 12, 2009, at 15:33:24
In reply to Re: Another Lymes Article Interesting slant. » bleauberry, posted by Phillipa on March 12, 2009, at 12:36:28
> Wow I wonder why the put a pic line in me and gave me Rocephin IV and then the biaxin xl three months at a time then off and wait then antibiotics again. Why did I feel better on the antibiotics with anxiety history? I don't get it? Love Phillipa
I have no idea what the rationale was. Sounds good, just not long enough. There are better meds and combos, though everyone responds differently depending on which pathogens they have.
Why feel better on ABs? Good question. I talked with my LLMD on the phone last night. Told him I felt tons better almost right away. Asked him how that could happen because it was not long enough or high enough of a dose to do much pathogen killing. He explained to me in scientific detail way over my head how it is his belief that many of the symptoms of Lyme and other infections is not just from the pathogen toxins themselves, but rather from the immune system's reaction to the pathogens. The anxiety, depression, pain, whatever, is our own immune system freaking out.
Well, these different ABs have different effects on some of the immune markers we have. I don't remember the name, but he Tetracycline increases one of those markers and that is probably what I felt. He said later in treatment if a patient has not yet had a breakthrough where they feel wonderful, then he pulls out another trick, which is a second AB (forgot which one) that lowers that same immune marker. He starts it at a very low dose, patient Herxes a little bit, increases the dose a little more, a little more Herx, and then all of a sudden the patient feels great. LLMD called it his miracle trick. And he explained it is more based on manipulating the immune system than it is killing pathogens, though of course mass destruction of pathogens is happening the whole time.
Anyway, somewhere in that complicated web could explain why you felt better. The meds somehow controlled your immune or hormones that were freaking out, manifesting as a feeling of anxiety.
??? Complicated stuff, and surely Greek to members of CDC.All I know is the very next day after my first dose of Tetracycline I had the most wonderful sleep without the early morning waking, without the adrenaline rush thing, and the whole day was peaceful and calm with zero anxiety.
Two days later I was joking, socializing, brain fog seemed gone, pains much diminished. It was almost a miracle. But then, just as was predicted by the LLMD, the Herx reaction set it. So now feeling that.
But, it was amazing. And it is a glimpse of the future. And it is a glimpse of the unexplored science of how pathogen infections can be and are involved in psychiatry. Probably a lot more than we are aware of, in my opinion.
Posted by Phillipa on March 12, 2009, at 19:31:54
In reply to Re: Another Lymes Article Interesting slant., posted by bleauberry on March 12, 2009, at 15:33:24
BB ANA went down from 1:2800 and something. Which is marker of autoimmune diseases was yours tested. Last time mine was l:40 which used to be normal now they have lowered that also. Phillipa ps so something worked.
Posted by fayeroe on March 13, 2009, at 11:00:11
In reply to Re: Another Lymes Article Interesting slant., posted by bleauberry on March 12, 2009, at 5:23:50
When I read quotes from professionals, (particularly doctors) who have not seen the records of someone, I am immediately turned off. The very idea that you could be so arrogant that you would comment on a story that you really don't know anything about stinks.
Remember the case of the young woman in Florida? Tons of doctors stepped up to give their opinions and they had never seen her charts and medical records.
I ain't buying it.......
Posted by bleauberry on March 13, 2009, at 15:48:13
In reply to Re: Another Lymes Article Interesting slant. » bleauberry, posted by fayeroe on March 13, 2009, at 11:00:11
??? Confused. Exactly what were you referring to?
> When I read quotes from professionals, (particularly doctors) who have not seen the records of someone, I am immediately turned off. The very idea that you could be so arrogant that you would comment on a story that you really don't know anything about stinks.
>
> Remember the case of the young woman in Florida? Tons of doctors stepped up to give their opinions and they had never seen her charts and medical records.
>
> I ain't buying it.......
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