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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by myco on February 28, 2009, at 21:32:50
I use a small dose of Seroquel (25mg) for sleep on Nardil. I've noticed that over the week i've been taking Seroquel (only about a week now), my
moods the next day get worse...I get mood swings, more anxiety and generally just a more depressive state. This was well under control with Nardil alone using melatonin and various herbals for sleep (although my sleep was crap).Seroquel and other new antipsychotics are antagonists of dopamine and seratonin receptors, correct? So is it possible, since Nardil helps to increase dopamine and seratonin (among others), that Seroquel is "diminishing" (if that makes sense) Nardils effects on dopamine and seratonin?
If so...what would be a good augment to combat this if possible? I want to stay with this sleep med ideally. I was thinking to use tyrosine and perhaps tryptophan in combo (at low dose) to reverse some of this. Is my logic correct here guys? Please I need ideas...this is starting to suck.
Anyone?
thanks,
myco
Posted by Phillipa on February 28, 2009, at 23:48:04
In reply to Seroquel's DA/SA lowering + Nardil = Depression?, posted by myco on February 28, 2009, at 21:32:50
Hi myco. Sounds like it's a good ideas as you like the other meds. Why did you switch to seroquel? I took it once and it knocked me out under hospital conditions. I hope or did you try med checker to see if compatible. It's googable second one down. med checker. Love Phillipa
Posted by myco on March 1, 2009, at 10:46:43
In reply to Seroquel's DA/SA lowering + Nardil = Depression?, posted by myco on February 28, 2009, at 21:32:50
Posted by bleauberry on March 1, 2009, at 16:32:54
In reply to Seroquel's DA/SA lowering + Nardil = Depression?, posted by myco on February 28, 2009, at 21:32:50
I would explore a different sleep med. It makes zero sense to me to take something that makes me feel worse...on purpose...and expensive...and then go out and have to toy with something to make me feel better while continuing taking the thing I know is making me feel worse. I don't get that.
Though I do admit, been there done that.There is other stuff. Lunesta, klonopin, restoril, 7.5mg remeron, trazodone (I hate this one, but hey, some people like it), and how about nortriptyline or maybe cautiously amitriptyline.
If you want an antipsychotic induced sleep, Zyprexa is in my opinion a better choice overall for just about any psychiatric condition. It doesn't have the knockout punch of Seroquel, but it is definitely a sleep inducer and in my opinion is a much better psych med all around.
And the stuff about tyrosine and tryptophan. Well, it aint quite so easy. All that stuff assumes that your genes and your enzymes are going to convert those things into the things you want and through the correct pathways. That's an iffy assumption in anyone with ongoing psychiatric symptoms.
I wouldn't mix either of those with an MAOI anyway.
Seroquel isn't lowering DA or SA, it is actually increasing them as well as NE. Brain concentrations of all three increase on Seroquel or Zyprexa or Risperdal. But at the same time the receptors are being partially blocked from feeling the extra boost.
Personally I would either...increase the dose of Seroquel to see if it feels different in terms of mood, maybe takes on a different character, or ditch it completely and resume the hunt. There is no perfect med that lasts forever, so sometimes you gotta learn to live with the best you got at the time.
Posted by myco on March 1, 2009, at 18:21:33
In reply to Re: Seroquel's DA/SA lowering + Nardil = Depression?, posted by bleauberry on March 1, 2009, at 16:32:54
Hi bleauberry,
Youre great to have on our side bleauberry...I love the very logical, calm down lets take this step by step, approach you have with giving clear advice. Ever think about teaching of some form?
I guess I misunderstood how 'antagonism' works? If seroquel antagonizes dopamine and seratonin receptors this means it "blocks" or prevents dopamine and seratonin transmission thus increasing the amount of dopamine and seratonin that 'hang out' in the synaptic gap? And it's sleep effect is due to antagonism of histamine receptors. I think this make sense?
Is that it? sorry for my ignorance man lol im a chef not a biochemist.
I will adjust the dose up and see what happens in terms of mood...but I have a feeling this isn't a "happy drug"...tends to lend to apathy in the least from what I hear.
My main issue, tryin to resolve this, is lack of a proper sleep med. Benzo phobe dr...temazepam only few times a week and my trial of trazodone ended in unpleasant sides with nardil. I dont know where else to turn in terms of sleep meds...kinda why im on seroquel for sleep now. I hope sometime maoi insomnia will become manageable solely with my herbal friends.
thx again
myco> I would explore a different sleep med. It makes zero sense to me to take something that makes me feel worse...on purpose...and expensive...and then go out and have to toy with something to make me feel better while continuing taking the thing I know is making me feel worse. I don't get that.
> Though I do admit, been there done that.
>
> There is other stuff. Lunesta, klonopin, restoril, 7.5mg remeron, trazodone (I hate this one, but hey, some people like it), and how about nortriptyline or maybe cautiously amitriptyline.
>
> If you want an antipsychotic induced sleep, Zyprexa is in my opinion a better choice overall for just about any psychiatric condition. It doesn't have the knockout punch of Seroquel, but it is definitely a sleep inducer and in my opinion is a much better psych med all around.
>
> And the stuff about tyrosine and tryptophan. Well, it aint quite so easy. All that stuff assumes that your genes and your enzymes are going to convert those things into the things you want and through the correct pathways. That's an iffy assumption in anyone with ongoing psychiatric symptoms.
>
> I wouldn't mix either of those with an MAOI anyway.
>
> Seroquel isn't lowering DA or SA, it is actually increasing them as well as NE. Brain concentrations of all three increase on Seroquel or Zyprexa or Risperdal. But at the same time the receptors are being partially blocked from feeling the extra boost.
>
> Personally I would either...increase the dose of Seroquel to see if it feels different in terms of mood, maybe takes on a different character, or ditch it completely and resume the hunt. There is no perfect med that lasts forever, so sometimes you gotta learn to live with the best you got at the time.
Posted by bleauberry on March 2, 2009, at 19:56:13
In reply to Re: Seroquel's DA/SA lowering + Nardil = Depression? » bleauberry, posted by myco on March 1, 2009, at 18:21:33
> My main issue, tryin to resolve this, is lack of a proper sleep med. Benzo phobe dr...temazepam only few times a week and my trial of trazodone ended in unpleasant sides with nardil. I dont know where else to turn in terms of sleep meds...kinda why im on seroquel for sleep now. I hope sometime maoi insomnia will become manageable solely with my herbal friends.Yeah, I hear ya on everything. Tough stuff. The arm chair quarterback thing of figuring out what does what is interesting, but inevitably not very helpful, because there is just so much more going on than we know about. The only real test for any of us is trial and error. I've seen people on this board find magic in things that made no sense at all. I mean, lithium for anti-anxiety when 8mg Klonopin didn't work. A stimulant to calm down. Becoming activated and well on something as knockout as seroquel. Ya know, this stuff happens and we can't explain it.
Herbs. I think the best ones I tried for sleep were passionflower, skullcap, and valerian combination. Each on its own had its own flavor as a sleep aid, but the 3 together was a more rounded sleep. Other popular ones like hops or chamomile just made me so darn depressed the next day.
Low dose nortriptyline or amitriptyline might be worth considering. Trazodone is used by many people, though I hated it. My favorite sleep med was Zyprexa. Not as knockout as seroquel, but somehow more rounded. Of the meds intended for sleep, Lunesta was my favorite. The others, like ambien and such, were lousy.
Not sure if it is safe with maoi or not, I think it would be, but low dose naltrexone (1.5mg) gave me awesome sleep. It didn't knock me out, but once I fell asleep, it was a good deep sleep.
Posted by desolationrower on March 3, 2009, at 20:58:08
In reply to Seroquel's DA/SA lowering + Nardil = Depression?, posted by myco on February 28, 2009, at 21:32:50
you might want to try gabapentin instead. i'd give the quetiapine more time though, what exactly is is causing? at those doses its not doing much at DA or 5ht receptors
-d/r
Posted by myco on March 3, 2009, at 21:48:50
In reply to Re: Seroquel's DA/SA lowering + Nardil = Depression?, posted by desolationrower on March 3, 2009, at 20:58:08
hey d/r
The seroquel has a tendency to depress my moods the next day after sleep...I get more moody, even somewhat more anxiety...just not as "cheery" as I am without it...I dont really know why or even if it truely is the seroquel...certainly coincided nicely though with starting seroquel. But ya I will give it more time since ive not even been on it 2 weeks yet. and at 25mg it's not as effective as I need for sleep...I will need to raise the dose but have one of those gp's who says dont mess with the dose at all until you come back and see me and talk about it...so shortly I will.
Ive always been interested in gabapentin and especially lyrica but lyrica is not yet indicated for gad or sleep in Canada even though it has been in the USA and by the european commission...gp is iffy about "off label meds". But that might be enough to argue it properly. of course he's cut off the seroquel if I did change lol better hope it works lol
myco
> you might want to try gabapentin instead. i'd give the quetiapine more time though, what exactly is is causing? at those doses its not doing much at DA or 5ht receptors
>
> -d/r
Posted by desolationrower on March 4, 2009, at 12:07:01
In reply to Re: Seroquel's DA/SA lowering + Nardil = Depression? » desolationrower, posted by myco on March 3, 2009, at 21:48:50
you are going to increase the quetiapine even though its making you worse?
-d/r
Posted by myco on March 4, 2009, at 13:42:20
In reply to Re: Seroquel's DA/SA lowering + Nardil = Depression?, posted by desolationrower on March 4, 2009, at 12:07:01
Investigational purposes...dont some meds have different effects at higher doses (I dont mean a huge rise here but 50mg instead of 25). Or do you think I should just bail on it and try another? I can be patient while on meds but i'm always searching and learning about others for next.
> you are going to increase the quetiapine even though its making you worse?
>
> -d/r
Posted by desolationrower on March 4, 2009, at 17:35:45
In reply to Re: Seroquel's DA/SA lowering + Nardil = Depression? » desolationrower, posted by myco on March 4, 2009, at 13:42:20
> Investigational purposes...dont some meds have different effects at higher doses (I dont mean a huge rise here but 50mg instead of 25). Or do you think I should just bail on it and try another? I can be patient while on meds but i'm always searching and learning about others for next.
>
> > you are going to increase the quetiapine even though its making you worse?
> >
> > -d/r
>
>yes especially something like quietiapine, it hits so many receptors it can change a lot, but i thought you were mainly using it as a sleep aid? usually people use a low dose for that.
-d/r
This is the end of the thread.
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