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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 32. Go back in thread:
Posted by Justherself54 on November 8, 2008, at 16:21:07
In reply to I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:31:40
I don't know why you'd think you'd mess up the study. I think all viewpoints would probably be beneficial.
Posted by Sigismund on November 8, 2008, at 16:40:35
In reply to I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:31:40
Many people here would have appreciated your informed and skeptical posts.
Certainly I have.
Posted by Ricker on November 8, 2008, at 18:06:56
In reply to I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:31:40
> My sad but true view of psychiatric medications is just going to mess up the results.Your sad but "personal" view should have absolutely no bearing on the outcome. Your views have yet to sway me so I'm thinking it's safe to "hang around"!
Posted by bulldog2 on November 8, 2008, at 18:24:57
In reply to I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:31:40
> I think it would be best if I left this board for the duration of Dr. Bob's clinical study.
>
> My sad but true view of psychiatric medications is just going to mess up the results.
>
> I did fine on medications untill I found out how toxic they are. I feel that if people come here and read what I have to say they too will become bummed out.
>
> So, I think it will be best if I leave so that people like SLS can get everybody beliving in magic pills and all of that stuff.
>
> I don't think Dr. Bob would protest this decision.
>
> Feel free to delete this post if you feel it is not productive.
>
> Take care,
>
> Linkadge
>
>To me quality of life is more important than longetivity. I'd rather have a shorter happier life than a long miserable one.
Posted by bulldog2 on November 8, 2008, at 18:31:49
In reply to I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:31:40
> I think it would be best if I left this board for the duration of Dr. Bob's clinical study.
>
> My sad but true view of psychiatric medications is just going to mess up the results.
>
> I did fine on medications untill I found out how toxic they are. I feel that if people come here and read what I have to say they too will become bummed out.
>
> So, I think it will be best if I leave so that people like SLS can get everybody beliving in magic pills and all of that stuff.
>
> I don't think Dr. Bob would protest this decision.
>
> Feel free to delete this post if you feel it is not productive.
>
> Take care,
>
> Linkadge
>
>You don't have to leave because I already know what you know. I just don't care. Drugs are toxic. Not just psych meds but all meds. Arthritis meds are very toxic. But I guess some people chose to alleviate the pain and have some quality of life rather than a long painful life.Please don't tell me about working things out with cbt. Hasn't worked for me and never will.We all have to make our own decisions and decide what serves us best.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 19:12:04
In reply to I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:31:40
Don't understand why you would leave during a study (don't know what its about exactly) that I assume wants to see all viewpoints on the board. Besides, some of the best "material" for lack of a better word probably comes out when people are disagreeing and are tempted into telling all that they "think" they know. I think you should stay, or are you some kind of plant and it would be unethical? JK.
~jade
Posted by SLS on November 8, 2008, at 20:11:21
In reply to I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:31:40
> So, I think it will be best if I leave so that people like SLS can get everybody beliving in magic pills and all of that stuff.
Why do you always have to make things personal when it comes to SLS? Why use my name at all? What do you do? Get everybody believing in ineffective and dangerous pills and all of that stuff?
It is your privilege here to attempt to convince people of whatever you want to. Enjoy it.
You can make your point without making reference to me. It is not that hard. Try it. I have certainly managed to do without making things personal with you. I know you haven't gone so far as to call me a melancholic misanthropic narcissist or some such thing. For this I guess I should remain grateful.
- Scott
Posted by Questionmark on November 8, 2008, at 20:12:11
In reply to I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:31:40
No way Linkadge. You have so much freaking knowledge and information, and you're critical thinking abilities are incredibly admirable. If anyone should stay and contribute it is people such as yourself. You absolutely should not feel that you should leave (you could if you want, of course, but not out of any feelings of obligation or guilt).
Besides, the industry and philosophy of pharmaceutical magic needs skeptics and critics like you. It needs other perspectives and opinions. In fact, almost every paradigm does.
I mean, of course you can (and should) try to temper any exaggeration & generalization & over-reliance on assumptions, as should we all (not saying you do those things by any means just adding that), but you should definitely not feel the need to leave.
The people have spoken, Linkadge. We want you to stay and we think you should stay.
> I think it would be best if I left this board for the duration of Dr. Bob's clinical study.
>
> My sad but true view of psychiatric medications is just going to mess up the results.
>
> I did fine on medications untill I found out how toxic they are. I feel that if people come here and read what I have to say they too will become bummed out.
>
> So, I think it will be best if I leave so that people like SLS can get everybody beliving in magic pills and all of that stuff.
>
> I don't think Dr. Bob would protest this decision.
>
> Feel free to delete this post if you feel it is not productive.
>
> Take care,
>
> Linkadge
Posted by bleauberry on November 8, 2008, at 20:55:47
In reply to I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:31:40
Na Link, you are as important here as anyone. Each person is unique not only in their symptoms, their disease, their treatment, and their responses to treatment, but also unique in their role of sharing information and support. This site is all about sharing information and support for each other. You have always been good at that. Nobody ever said anyone's support or information had to fit some preconceived mold, and I don't think anyone would appreciate such an antiseptic environment. Differing opinions serve good purposes, not just here, but in every walk of life. They build man's knowledge.
If someone's opinion differs from someone else's, that's just the nature of the field, and well, of the whole world.
My only humble critique would be to mention things in general terms next time rather than naming names. For example, "someone who" believes in magic pills, rather than specifying any particular person.
Post-fluoxetine weeks can be a little unsettling emotionally, sometimes in subtle ways that aren't immediately recognized. Since you recently stopped fluoxetine cold turkey, I can understand some slightly exaggerated emotions. I know you believe what you feel, and it is real, but it is probably at this moment not the large mountain it appears to be. Withdrawals have a hint of tweeking perception a little bit.
Posted by Ricker on November 8, 2008, at 21:16:46
In reply to I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:31:40
If you want to leave, then leave? Always one person in chat groups with the big "I'm leaving" post..... seems like an attention getter thing or something?
If you're that put off with psychiatric medicinal treatment, google natural treat method chat groups? I bet you'll get lots of hits, and it just might help with your recovery process??See ya!
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 21:19:33
In reply to Re: I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by bleauberry on November 8, 2008, at 20:55:47
Hey Link,
But not everyone comes here hoping that someone on an internet group will give them the magic formula for happily ever after. When I came to babble, I was merely looking for a little info on cymbalta. I have certainly learned plenty about cymbalta, and all of the other exciting drug combos since then. I remember you being an important part of the dialog on this board, and I would be disappointed to see you leave. This board has a nice way of being able to tolerate some dialectics. I don't see why you can't continue to participate. You certainly have a lot to offer. I hope you're not feeling down on yourself? Don't know you well enough, but I hope you're feeling okay.-Ll
Posted by Phillipa on November 8, 2008, at 23:07:50
In reply to Re: I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 21:19:33
Link don't leave always need to hear both sides or how can one make an informed consent? And you are very knowledgeable. You also are not withdrawing in my opinion I feel you feel you're being considerate but not true. The best discussions are two sides to all things meds included. Just my personal opinion. Love Phillipa
Posted by West on November 9, 2008, at 13:17:56
In reply to Re: I better leave before I mess up the study » linkadge, posted by SLS on November 8, 2008, at 20:11:21
I second SLS's concerns about how benign your influence is in a board designed to provide support and encouragement for those seeking it.
If i were a depressive starting on antidepressants for the 1st time (with an understandable degree of hesitation) i could probably do without being told all antidepressants are toxic.
However your critical approach to meds and generally sound powers of discrimination regarding the oft-overlooked secondary effects of psychotropic medicines* on perception and feeling (perhaps the two most important contributors to identity) must go some way to making you a valuable member of the board.
I WOULD find battling down a one-way street with everyone going in the opposite direction a little tiring after a while, and so similarly can understand you're feel a bit disheartened right now.
Aren't we all are though? Why not stick around.
*(on which we must continue to believe in and improve, in that order)
Posted by bulldog2 on November 9, 2008, at 15:11:37
In reply to I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:31:40
I don't know why people are pleading with him to stay. He believes these meds are toxic so what else is there to state. Saying all these meds are toxic is his opinion and please do not take this for fact. Depression is also toxic. At times I get the feeling that people become bitter when others go into remission and they have failed to do so.
Posted by SLS on November 9, 2008, at 16:33:44
In reply to Re: I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by bulldog2 on November 9, 2008, at 15:11:37
> ...when others go into remission and they have failed to do so.
It brings tears to my eyes to think of the people who have not YET been treated adequately when I have been. Survivor's guilt. Sometimes, I feel as if I have left people behind. I can't help but to want to share my success story with people in the hope that it will give them Hope. It is one of the main reasons that I have not disappeared from this forum. Another reason is to keep current on the new drugs that people are experimenting with.
I never lost hope, even when I was suicidal. It was logical to have hope. I had not yet run out of things to try. If I could conceive of a drug or drug combination not yet tried, there always lied the uncertainty that something might work. In other words, I was never absolutely certain that nothing would ever work. Such a conclusion would be illogical.
Have hope. It is logical.
- Scott
Posted by Deputy Racer on November 9, 2008, at 16:59:30
In reply to Re: I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by bulldog2 on November 9, 2008, at 15:11:37
> I don't know why people are pleading with him to stay. ... At times I get the feeling that people become bitter when others go into remission and they have failed to do so.
>If you want to leave, then leave? Always one person in chat groups with the big "I'm leaving" post..... seems like an attention getter thing or something?
Please don't post anything which could lead others to feel accused or put down. A good suggestion for defining civility here is to apply the Golden Rule -- consider how you would feel if what you've written were directed at you. Sometimes the use of "I statements" can help, as well, although even those may e problematic at times. There are good examples of I statements in the civility section of the FAQ if you have difficulty understanding the nuances. (As I have difficulty understanding those nuances at times, so I do empathize with that.)
If you have any questions regarding the posting policies on this site, please read the FAQ, located at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil Follow ups to this action should be directed to the Administration board and should themselves be civil.
Dr Bob has ultimate authority over all administrative issues on this site, and may choose at any time to revise or reverse any action taken by a deputy.
Deputy Racer
Posted by Maxime on November 9, 2008, at 17:00:10
In reply to Re: I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by SLS on November 9, 2008, at 16:33:44
In other words, I was never absolutely certain that nothing would ever work. Such a conclusion would be illogical.
>
> Have hope. It is logical.
>
>
> - ScottThat is actually a beautiful statement about hope. I will have to remember it. Never thought about hope being logical ... but when you put it that way, it clearly is.
Cymbalta and Parnate (not together) have saved my life - no doubt there.
Posted by Deputy Racer on November 9, 2008, at 17:09:12
In reply to Re: I better leave before I mess up the study » SLS, posted by Maxime on November 9, 2008, at 17:00:10
This is a general reminder on this thread that the civility guidelines here require that all posts be civil in tone, and in nature. I understand that many are still reacting to Dr Bob's announcement of the new research, and I understand that many here have strong opinions regarding other posters. Nonetheless, agreements must be couched in civil terms, and personal attacks are never tolerated.
If you believe that a post here is uncivil in any way, please use the Notification system by clicking on the button on the bottom of every post.
So, let's see if we can keep it civil here, OK?
Thanks.
Deputy Racer
Posted by Ricker on November 9, 2008, at 17:38:01
In reply to Please be civil »Ricker » bulldog2, posted by Deputy Racer on November 9, 2008, at 16:59:30
Sorry for my post. Not feeling well. Not an excuse so please accept my apology Link.
Rick
Posted by JadeKelly on November 9, 2008, at 18:27:50
In reply to I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:31:40
> I think it would be best if I left this board for the duration of Dr. Bob's clinical study.
I second the motion.
>
> My sad but true view of psychiatric medications is just going to mess up the results.I agree, I formally retract my earlier request that you stay. Too Toxic for me.
Whats sad is that you can't seem to get your point across with out offending people.
>
I did fine on medications untill I found out how toxic they are. I feel that if people come here and read what I have to say they too will become bummed out.Maybe get yourself a good A/D for that.
Its your bitterness and need to be "right" that bum people out.
>
> So, I think it will be best if I leave so that people like SLS can get everybody beliving in magic pills and all of that stuff.Why DOES everything have to be so personal with you? I question your reasons for being here after reading many of your posts.
>
> I don't think Dr. Bob would protest this decision.I hope not.
>> Feel free to delete this post if you feel it is not productive.
>
> Take care,
>
> LinkadgeAnd before anyone starts jumping all over my case, see some of Linkages recent posts.
~Jade
>
>
Posted by Deputy Dinah on November 9, 2008, at 18:33:00
In reply to Re: I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by JadeKelly on November 9, 2008, at 18:27:50
> I agree, I formally retract my earlier request that you stay. Too Toxic for me.
Hi Jade. I realize you're new to Babble, and you might wish to familiarize yourself with the civility FAQ.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
If you have a problem with someone's post, please use the notify administrators function at the bottom of each posting page. Please be careful not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Deputy Dinah on November 9, 2008, at 18:33:43
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by Ricker on November 9, 2008, at 17:38:01
Posted by Geegee on November 9, 2008, at 21:18:44
In reply to Re: I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by SLS on November 9, 2008, at 16:33:44
Posted by Questionmark on November 9, 2008, at 22:17:31
In reply to Re: I better leave before I mess up the study » SLS, posted by Maxime on November 9, 2008, at 17:00:10
I am going to have to disagree with some of those in this thread, including even some of those who want him to stay (though not with wanting him to stay of course). There is some talk about-- as West mentioned-- this board being a place to "provide support and encouragement for those seeking it." While that is certainly true, i think more importantly, it is-- or at least should be-- a place to become more knowledgeable and informed and therefore decisive about our psychopharmaceutical choices and overall mental health-- even if and when some of this knowledge may be discouraging at times, at least temporarily. For knowledge gives one a greater likelihood of improving mental health and well-being *long term*, whereas feeling positive and encouraged about something, without adequate knowledge and perspective-- particularly about something that may possibly not be the most ideal option-- is more likely to leave one worse off in the long run potentially. Now where these lines exactly are when it comes to specific examples is debatable, but I think having a greater amount of informed perspective is almost always better, even if some of it is sometimes discouraging when it comes to certain tools or concepts-- as long as the perspectives are backed up by information and knowledge (including experiential knowledge) and do not excessively exaggerate or generalize.
Also, a few of you have complained about Linkadge's claim, more or less, that pharmaceutical antidepressants are toxic. My response to that is, Well, what if they ARE?? He could be right. Now, that's just one perspective and, as someone else pointed out, depression is extremely toxic. But i for one am glad to be given that perspective, in case it IS true, and I can make a more informed decision-- even though, yes, it is certainly scary and disheartening to think about that possibly the case.
I just wanted to put that out there.Oh, let me give one example to illustrate my point. Suppose you have Person X, middle-aged, who has no history of depression. And say her mother or both parents have just passed away, and she is incredibly sad and heartsick and in grief. Say it's been a few weeks, and someone recommends that she get on an antidepressant to help her feel better. Now, all we who have suffered from depression for long enough know there is a distinct difference between sadness and depression, even extreme sadness, though that is more blurry. So let's assume her grief is not so-called "clinical" depression (though that is not in any way trying minimize the pain of her grief or deny that it is certainly possible for someone to become clinically depressed from their parents dying). And, therefore, it is likely the *pain* from her grief and her overall sadness will gradually dissipate, allowing her to "get on with her life" as they say, despite that there will always of course be some amount of sadness and that she will always miss them a great deal, etc. Basically: so she is not depressed. Could she not be worse off overall in the long run to start taking an antidepressant? I would say absolutely. And could it not be said then that it would be beneficial for someone like her to read some of Linkadge's criticisms and cautionary advice on psychiatric medications? I would say absolutely. I would also say that even many people with mild to moderate depression might be better off never starting any psychopharmacological intervention. The side effects (including those subtle psychological & behavioral), personality changes, withdrawal, long-term neurophysiological and receptor changes-- these are all serious, significant, and highly underestimated risks and trade-offs that accompany the use of a psychiatric drug. Are they worth the benefits of the drug in many cases? I would say definitely. That's why I am on one. But we should be as aware and informed as possible of the trade-offs, risks, etc., in order to make the best decision possible regarding whether or not to take medications, what their doses should be, etc.
Okay, well, i've spent enough time on this post so I think i'll shut up now. Sorry for my rambling. I feel those are some important points though, so hopefully it is worthwhile.
Posted by Questionmark on November 9, 2008, at 22:42:28
In reply to Re: I better leave before I mess up the study, posted by SLS on November 9, 2008, at 16:33:44
I question whether i should post this or not, but, i'm feeling compelled... or, wanting to, or, something/ whatever. Anyway...
This was a good post and encouraging, and I don't mean to take away from that. But I think that when some people are deeply depressed enough, as with myself, their thinking is that it doesn't matter if they are not "certain that nothing would ever work." It can seem unlikely enough that it makes it feel not-worthwhile to hope, and it at the very least *feels* like hope is illogical. Also, even if something Could work it can feel like it doesn't even matter anyway as nothing will give you back all the lost years and months and days. ... That part might not be logical, as it might be more logical to try to make the best of your present and the rest of your life regardless of the past, but, sometimes what you feel cannot override what you might know to be logical.
I am not really feeling these things right now, but I certainly have many times.I'm sorry. I'm not sure why I wrote this. And it's getting less relevant to the subject of the thread, so i'm sorry for that too. But i felt i needed to (?). Or maybe i just wanted to.
> > ...when others go into remission and they have failed to do so.
>
> It brings tears to my eyes to think of the people who have not YET been treated adequately when I have been. Survivor's guilt. Sometimes, I feel as if I have left people behind. I can't help but to want to share my success story with people in the hope that it will give them Hope. It is one of the main reasons that I have not disappeared from this forum. Another reason is to keep current on the new drugs that people are experimenting with.
>
> I never lost hope, even when I was suicidal. It was logical to have hope. I had not yet run out of things to try. If I could conceive of a drug or drug combination not yet tried, there always lied the uncertainty that something might work. In other words, I was never absolutely certain that nothing would ever work. Such a conclusion would be illogical.
>
> Have hope. It is logical.
>
>
> - Scott
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