Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 847169

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Re: The stakes are too high. SLS

Posted by mknight on August 20, 2008, at 19:02:25

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. Cecilia, posted by SLS on August 20, 2008, at 5:08:11

> I really don't care how people get well, as long as the treatment is inherently safe.

> - Scott

You answered my question a few weeks ago about Nardil being hepatotoxic, but after reading your above sentence, I just have to ask.

What about MAOIs and TCAs being hepatotoxic, causing hepatic failure, increasing intraocular pressure, etc?

What about atypical antipsychotics causing tardive dyskinesia, diabetes, etc.

Do you think that the above side effects occur in only a small percentage of the population and the benefit of the proper treatment outweighs the risks?

My reason for asking is that for 14 years I have felt stoned and spacey as if I had smoked marijuana or taken mescaline. I have taken Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa, Prozac, Wellbutrin, Mirtazapine, Methylphenidate, and Dexedrine. The SSRIs make me more stoned. Paxil was like taking LSD. Wellbutrin helps for a few weeks but 6 months later does nothing. Methylphenidate and Dexedrine put me to sleep and cause fatigue.

I have read that hallucinogenic drugs act as an agonist at 5HT2a. So I thought that a 5HT2a antagonist like Mirtazapine would help but it did nothing. My other option is atypical antipsychotics but I am concerned about long term side effects.

I may possibly fit the diagnosis for atypical depression for which MAOIs are supposed to work, but once again I do not want to fix my brain only to destroy my liver.

The only time in 14 years that I have not been stoned is after 2 separate stays in the hospital for an intestinal infection and a burst appendix. I felt completely normal for 5 months after each stay. I was given a sodium, chloride, potassium IV and IV Flagyl and Cipro antibiotics. None of my doctors have any answer for this.

I do not feel depressed just stoned, unmotivated, tired.

 

Re: The stakes are too high. Bob

Posted by SLS on August 21, 2008, at 1:32:16

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. SLS, posted by Bob on August 20, 2008, at 18:00:56

>
> > I think I project a great deal of my recent success using drug therapy onto the majority. It is wishful thinking, I know, but sometimes wishful thinking leads to success.
> >
> > Don't stop.
> >
> > You have only one chance at life. Don't waste too many ticks of the clock thinking that you are smarter than man's current compendium of knowledge.
> >
> > By the way, drugs work.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> >
>
>
> Scott:
>
> If you don't mind me asking, what would you characterize your base core illness as, i.e. what is your official diagnosis? Are you a more or less pure unipolar depressive, or are there complicating factors for you?

Yes. I am an unusual bipolar who stays severely depressed for decades, but who can be made psychotically manic by certain antidepressant drugs. I believe there will be a new diagnosis for this condition added to the DSM V. Furthermore, I spent a few years as an ultra rapid cycler with a period of 11 days marked by 8 days of severe depression followed by 3 days of normalcy. I think most rapid cyclers are true bipolars, whether the reach mania or not.


- Scott

 

Re: The stakes are too high.

Posted by SLS on August 21, 2008, at 1:50:58

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. SLS, posted by mknight on August 20, 2008, at 19:02:25

> I may possibly fit the diagnosis for atypical depression for which MAOIs are supposed to work, but once again I do not want to fix my brain only to destroy my liver.

The risk is rather small and can be monitored for by blood tests assaying liver enzymes. It is worth mentioning, though. I know that Terrence Ketter, MD, now at Stanford, will choose Marplan before Nardil to avoid hepatic stress. I have never known anyone to suffer this reaction. But, then again, I don't know 100,000 people taking Nardil.

> The only time in 14 years that I have not been stoned is after 2 separate stays in the hospital for an intestinal infection and a burst appendix. I felt completely normal for 5 months after each stay. I was given a sodium, chloride, potassium IV and IV Flagyl and Cipro antibiotics. None of my doctors have any answer for this.

I might be able to. It is either an anti-inflammatory property of one of the antibiotics or Lyme disease. How long have you been suffering for?

> I do not feel depressed just stoned, unmotivated, tired.

You know, I discussed "brain fog" with my doctor just last month. Unfortunately, I can't remember the details at the moment, but he had identified several mechanisms by which it could occur. I think he had referred to excessive glutamate.

Your rationale to try Remeron is quite astute. I'm glad you followed up on it just to be sure. Did Remeron make things worse in any way?


- Scott

 

Re: The stakes are too high. mknight

Posted by seldomseen on August 21, 2008, at 6:39:15

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. SLS, posted by mknight on August 20, 2008, at 19:02:25

You are not the first to speculate that there might be a connection between depression/malaise and intestinal problems/treatments.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18580840?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

There has been a lot of discussion regarding inflammation and mental illness.

Do you take fish oils?

Seldom

 

Re: The stakes are too high. SLS

Posted by Bob on August 21, 2008, at 14:16:50

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. Bob, posted by SLS on August 21, 2008, at 1:32:16

> >
> > > I think I project a great deal of my recent success using drug therapy onto the majority. It is wishful thinking, I know, but sometimes wishful thinking leads to success.
> > >
> > > Don't stop.
> > >
> > > You have only one chance at life. Don't waste too many ticks of the clock thinking that you are smarter than man's current compendium of knowledge.
> > >
> > > By the way, drugs work.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> > >
> >
> >
> > Scott:
> >
> > If you don't mind me asking, what would you characterize your base core illness as, i.e. what is your official diagnosis? Are you a more or less pure unipolar depressive, or are there complicating factors for you?
>
> Yes. I am an unusual bipolar who stays severely depressed for decades, but who can be made psychotically manic by certain antidepressant drugs. I believe there will be a new diagnosis for this condition added to the DSM V. Furthermore, I spent a few years as an ultra rapid cycler with a period of 11 days marked by 8 days of severe depression followed by 3 days of normalcy. I think most rapid cyclers are true bipolars, whether the reach mania or not.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>


I think if I searched long and hard enough I could find a doctor to classify me as BP not otherwise specified, but I'm not sure how it would change my treatment. I've never been full manic at all, and have only experienced what I would call true hypomania from meds, so whatever I have it's strange. Problem with any type of a bipolar diagnosis is that then docs start talking mood stabilizers, and for me that mean depression, lethargy, fatigue, confusion and even suicidality from some.

 

Re: The stakes are too high. SLS

Posted by Cecilia on August 22, 2008, at 0:25:23

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. Cecilia, posted by SLS on August 20, 2008, at 8:03:35

> Don't get mad at me for trying.
>
> Something I read recently demonstrated that, for certain drugs, more is better when it comes to a starting dosage to avoiding side effects. Prozac and Geodon are examples. Prozac at 20mg is probably less problematic than at 5mg. At lower dosages, it can be anxiogenic, at higher dosages it becomes anxiolytic and antidepressive. The same thing has been shown to be true of Geodon. It is less problematic at 40mg than it is at 20mg. I wonder if Abilify follows a similar pattern. I also wonder if at lower dosages, Effexor is more dopaminergic relative to serotonin and norepinephrine and more likely to produce a nausea that lingers.
>
> With Abilify, I started at 20mg. I had very little problem with agitation, restlessness, or anxiety. The doctor who managed me was pretty smart.
>
> Anyway, I am still on your side, even if my current positive outlook becomes annoying.
>
> Any chance of mixing Wellbutrin with Lamictal?
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
>
I'm not mad at you, just frustrated and hopeless. Maybe it's theoretically possible that for some meds higher doses have fewer side effects than lower ones. but it certainly doesn't seem very likely. I know with Prozac it certainly didn't work that way for me , when this "magic" pill first hit the market it only came in 20 mg capsules, even though the manufacturers's own research demonstrated that 5 mg worked for almost as many people as 20, with fewer side effects. I found the insomnia and anxiety horrible at 20, had an idiot doctor who when I said, "this doesn't work" had me double to 40, of course I couldn't tolerate that at all and dropped it. 16 years later I decided to give Prozac another try, asked my doctor for the now available liquid version, started at 1mg/day and worked up over months. Was able to tolerate it that way, but it never did anything for my depression.

Is there supposed to be a synergistic effect between Wellbutrin and Lamictal? Both had unpleasant side effects and no beneficial effects. Definitely had adequate trials of each, again working up over many months.

Cecilia


 

Re: The stakes are too high. Cecilia

Posted by SLS on August 22, 2008, at 8:50:08

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. SLS, posted by Cecilia on August 22, 2008, at 0:25:23

> > Any chance of mixing Wellbutrin with Lamictal?

> Is there supposed to be a synergistic effect between Wellbutrin and Lamictal?

My doctor and his colleagues seem to think so.


- Scott

 

Re: The stakes are too high. seldomseen

Posted by mknight on August 22, 2008, at 15:36:36

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. mknight, posted by seldomseen on August 21, 2008, at 6:39:15

> You are not the first to speculate that there might be a connection between depression/malaise and intestinal problems/treatments.
> There has been a lot of discussion regarding inflammation and mental illness.
>
> Do you take fish oils?
>
> Seldom

I have a lot of sensitivities to foods. Fruit, fruit juice, sugar, bread, potatoes, and rice all send me through the roof as far as a stoned, fat head, headache type of feeling. The only foods I can eat without either an immediate or next day reaction are meat and vegetables. Even then, one day out of seven, ground beef and steamed cabbage will give me a splitting headache and I will be spaced out all day.

Before taking any psychotropic drugs, I tried anything on the market that you could name. Fish oil is about the only item I have not tried. I did try flax oil for omega-3, but that depends on your body being able to convert it, so it may not have proved anything.

 

Re: The stakes are too high. SLS

Posted by mknight on August 22, 2008, at 15:59:10

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high., posted by SLS on August 21, 2008, at 1:50:58

> > None of my doctors have any answer for this.
>
> I might be able to. It is either an anti-inflammatory property of one of the antibiotics or Lyme disease. How long have you been suffering for?

All of my problems started in Oct 1994. I have seen 20 different doctors including neurologists, osteopaths, chiropractor, MDs, psyphiatrists, psychologists, and naturopath. To my knowledge, I have not been bitten by a tick.

> Your rationale to try Remeron is quite astute. I'm glad you followed up on it just to be sure. Did Remeron make things worse in any way?

I could notice the antihistamine effects but nothing else. One reason I thought about atypical antipsychotics is because of the ability to antagonize 5HT2a and also block D2 which some sources say hallucinogenics enhance. But I am seriously concerned about long term damage from taking them.

 

Re: The stakes are too high. mknight

Posted by Phillipa on August 22, 2008, at 19:46:02

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. SLS, posted by mknight on August 22, 2008, at 15:59:10

Hi Twin as I also was diagnosed with long dated chronic lymes disease by an infection control expert and a rheumatologist as ANA was 2800 and something to 1. Same timing as thyroid issue. From that day on couldn't tolerate meds. No tick bite either but the deer tick is as tiny as a piece of pepper so they can quite easily be missed. No flus or rheumatic symtoms. Just the postive titers and bands that are used in the diagnosis. Used to be a poster lunesta and he directed me to a lymes forum don't know if still exists as unfortunately the moderator died of chronic lymes a few years ago. Maybe google lunesta and see if there is a thread to me? Phillipa

 

Re: The stakes are too high.

Posted by bulldog2 on August 23, 2008, at 9:03:08

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. mknight, posted by Phillipa on August 22, 2008, at 19:46:02

> Hi Twin as I also was diagnosed with long dated chronic lymes disease by an infection control expert and a rheumatologist as ANA was 2800 and something to 1. Same timing as thyroid issue. From that day on couldn't tolerate meds. No tick bite either but the deer tick is as tiny as a piece of pepper so they can quite easily be missed. No flus or rheumatic symtoms. Just the postive titers and bands that are used in the diagnosis. Used to be a poster lunesta and he directed me to a lymes forum don't know if still exists as unfortunately the moderator died of chronic lymes a few years ago. Maybe google lunesta and see if there is a thread to me? Phillipa

It seems you don't read or remember what people write to you. Once you get bitten by a tick carrying lyme's disease you will have positive titers forever. I have written that to you many times.I was bitten by a tick years ago and treated with antibiotics and still have elevated titers.
Having elevated titers does not mean you have chronic lyme's disease!!!!!If you had chronic lyme's you would know it as the pain is unbearable and all the joints ache. You would also be treated with intravenous antibiotics.You were a nurse you should know this. When you get vaccines you get titres for that disease! Doesn't mean you have that disease.
What I found odd is that I explained this to you numerous times and you still state you have chronic lyme's disease.

No flus or rheumatic symtoms. These are your words. In chronic lyme's disease you would have these symptoms. After the initial bite there may not be symtoms but later on there would have to be symtoms to call it chronic lyme's. Also they would be treating you with intravenous antibiotics (treatment for chronic lyme's).

 

Re: The stakes are too high. bulldog2

Posted by Phillipa on August 23, 2008, at 18:52:26

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high., posted by bulldog2 on August 23, 2008, at 9:03:08

Think what you like that is your perogative. And have a great day. Phillipa

 

Re: The stakes are too high. - just herself

Posted by elanor roosevelt on August 23, 2008, at 21:32:35

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. - SLS, posted by Justherself54 on August 20, 2008, at 11:32:39

I am sorry you are having a hard time with the parnate. while i was taking it i lost weight and had no joint pain.
i hope it works for you

 

Re: The stakes are too high SLS

Posted by elanor roosevelt on August 23, 2008, at 21:40:30

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high., posted by B2chica on August 20, 2008, at 13:01:21

so much of the med-bashing comes from disappointment.
and the disappointment seems to grow when a number of years go by without something new to help us.

what i find more upsetting than the med-bashing is the number of replies give to the lurkers.

i hate to see people put so much energy into replying to antagonists who use the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" approach

perhaps that energy could be better spent on supporting each other

 

Re: The stakes are too high.

Posted by bulldog2 on August 24, 2008, at 10:44:02

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. bulldog2, posted by Phillipa on August 23, 2008, at 18:52:26

> Think what you like that is your perogative. And have a great day. Phillipa

it's not what I think it's the facts. Positive titres are not chronic lyme's disease. You have no symptoms. Have you ever been treated with antibiotics? If you had chronic lyme's there would have been antibiotic treatment.

You ask the same questions about meds over and over and post the same comments about your thyroid and lyme's disease over and over.Where is this all going? If you have chronic lyme's than you should get treatment for it. It seems as if you play the victim and come here for sympathy. As long as you are a victim you cannot get better. Riding your bike once a day will not lead to a cure.You need a plan whatever that might be. For two years you have stated that you cannot take two meds until your thyroid is balanced. When will that be? This is really very sad. You are not really taking in what people say. You never really listen so to speak but just endlessly post and make posts that often have nothing to do with the original poster but some unrelated comment.
So what is it that you want here? You don't believe meds work and often state how people you know are doing much better off of meds.
So what is it you seek? What is your plan? You will ride your bike into remission or into oblivion? You state that you were a nurse and have no knowledge of meds. That is very confusing.
Wake up and smell the coffee for the clock keeps moving. You are wasting valuable time.

 

Re: The stakes are too high. bulldog2

Posted by Phillipa on August 24, 2008, at 19:00:47

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high., posted by bulldog2 on August 24, 2008, at 10:44:02

I think a month in the hospital with a pic line and Rocephin constitutes being treated and then two years of biaxin long lasting in three months intervals is being treated. What does that have to do with posting I've very curious to know what's new. Many lurkers do the same but don't write. Have a great evening. Phillipa

 

Re: The stakes are too high. bulldog2

Posted by Phillipa on August 25, 2008, at 12:31:36

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high., posted by bulldog2 on August 23, 2008, at 9:03:08

Right now the CDC does not believe in long term antibiotic treatment for lymes as it's expensive and can also be dangerous. Last year a lymes doc here had to go to court for treating Iv lymes for long term theraphy. There must be a link to the CDC article as was in the lymes newsletter. And please do not disclose what was discussed in private. That is breach of confidentiality. Via E-mail or babblemail that is my opinion. Maybe that's why I do have arthritis and you? Food for thought is all. Have a great day again. Phillipa

 

Re: The stakes are too high.

Posted by bulldog2 on August 27, 2008, at 14:55:07

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. bulldog2, posted by Phillipa on August 25, 2008, at 12:31:36

> Right now the CDC does not believe in long term antibiotic treatment for lymes as it's expensive and can also be dangerous. Last year a lymes doc here had to go to court for treating Iv lymes for long term theraphy. There must be a link to the CDC article as was in the lymes newsletter. And please do not disclose what was discussed in private. That is breach of confidentiality. Via E-mail or babblemail that is my opinion. Maybe that's why I do have arthritis and you? Food for thought is all. Have a great day again. Phillipa

If it's active than the treatment is still antibiotic. Probably all psychosomatic as you appear to have hysterical neurotic tendencies that force you to post on everyone's thread.

 

Phillipa Phillipa

Posted by Dade on August 27, 2008, at 19:51:29

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high. bulldog2, posted by Phillipa on August 24, 2008, at 19:00:47

> I think a month in the hospital with a pic line and Rocephin constitutes being treated and then two years of biaxin long lasting in three months intervals is being treated. What does that have to do with posting I've very curious to know what's new. Many lurkers do the same but don't write. Have a great evening. Phillipa


Hi, so is your Lyme still making you sick? yr thyroid? are they in treated? i would put all efforts into getting thoes PHYSICAL diseases done with before taking psychotropics, which only suppress symptoms in thoes whos brain-disfunction causing ailments are currently medically untreatable or diagnosable.

 

Re: Phillipa Dade

Posted by Phillipa on August 27, 2008, at 22:56:03

In reply to Phillipa Phillipa, posted by Dade on August 27, 2008, at 19:51:29

Dade Hi no they refuse to give any more antibiotics for lymes. When it's tested the health dept calls and asks if I'm being treated. It's really hard to sort out what's causing what as when the lymes was discovered it was the same time as the autoimmune hasimotos thyroiditis was diagnosed. I see an endo for that but it's been unstable for two years now and it had been stable for ll years. They say that lymes isn't just the disease itself but tics also transmit lots of other bacterium also. If I had money I'd pay to see the lymes literate doc here in Davidson NC as he has cured so many when there symptoms didn't go away. And if you've read about lymes the spirochettes hide in body organs and wait till defenses are down and then come out and attack another organ. It's such a complicated disease most docs don't know that Western Blot is the only accurate test for it and then they don't know how to read the bands. There are many bands and only a lyme's expert knows how to interpret them. By mouth doxycycline is supposed to be the best antibiotic especially if caught early. Many think it is confined to CT as lymes CT is where it originated and I'm from CT originally. But it's all over the world and all carry different bacteria. So as long winded as that was I agree how do you know if your anxiety or depression is caused by either of above as all have same symtoms. Chronic fatigue and Fibromyalgia also are caused by both and could mimic depression. I do wonder if that lymes news letter is still being run as I said Rose the lady that ran it died about two years ago from chronic lymes. So many go undiagnosed. I convinced once a poster From Washington state to get tested she did and was positive. And got treated. Love Phillipa

 

Re:Dade Dade

Posted by Phillipa on August 27, 2008, at 22:58:46

In reply to Phillipa Phillipa, posted by Dade on August 27, 2008, at 19:51:29

Dade do you know anything about the illness? If so my babblemail is open. Love Phillipa

 

The stakes are too high )) SLS

Posted by Marty on August 28, 2008, at 10:16:23

In reply to Re: Phillipa Dade, posted by Phillipa on August 27, 2008, at 22:56:03


... just resuming the original subject of the thread. I know how you like that ;)

lol
see ya
/\/\arty

 

Re: The stakes are too high )) SLS

Posted by bulldog2 on August 29, 2008, at 16:37:50

In reply to The stakes are too high )) SLS, posted by Marty on August 28, 2008, at 10:16:23

>
> ... just resuming the original subject of the thread. I know how you like that ;)
>
> lol
> see ya
> /\/\arty

There is a tendency for certain people to hijack threads and make it about themselves. I didn't realize this was a lyme's disease forum. Not really the right forum to find answers for lyme's related problems.

 

Re: The stakes are too high )) SLS bulldog2

Posted by SLS on August 29, 2008, at 18:46:47

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high )) SLS, posted by bulldog2 on August 29, 2008, at 16:37:50

> I didn't realize this was a lyme's disease forum. Not really the right forum to find answers for lyme's related problems.

This is a good site to visit:

http://www.columbia-lyme.org/


- Scott

 

Re: The stakes are too high )) SLS SLS

Posted by Phillipa on August 29, 2008, at 19:53:41

In reply to Re: The stakes are too high )) SLS bulldog2, posted by SLS on August 29, 2008, at 18:46:47

Scott thanks you are a doll baby. Love Phillipa


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