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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by clipper40 on December 19, 2007, at 18:48:22
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue, posted by bleauberry on December 19, 2007, at 18:16:52
Exactly what I've been dealing with! I don't wake up until much later in the day. Then when I finally have energy and feel awake, it's time to go to sleep. Unfortunately, I don't go to sleep. I like feeling alive finally so I end up staying up most of the night. My sleep schedule is all screwed up. It's horrible.
I'd like to add that most traditional doctors don't recognize adrenal fatigue. If you don't have Addison's disease or full out failure of the adrenals, then they don't see it as a problem. Those who want to get healed from this need to look into this for themselves and/or see a holistically oriented practitioner.
My holistic doctor prescribed Sub-Adrene (adrenal cortex extract). Have you heard of that one? I haven't been diligent about the diet however. Must do that soon. This is a double curse for me because I need noradrenergic/dopaminergic assistance for my lack of motivation. I'd really like to try Trivastal soon but I don't dare take anything like that until I'm sure my adrenals can handle it.
I'm also planning on adding licorice and ashwaganda herbs to my schedule. Do you know if these normalize or just reduce cortisol? I thought that aswaganda normalized it.
Interesting observation about Scott. I used to think that there was a physiological problem behind his nonreaction to meds and I urged him more than once to see a holistic physician and get a thorough workup. He knew a lot more than I did, however, about psychotropic drugs and brain chemistry and he completely disregarded my posts. I'm glad he finally got a good response though. If anyone deserved it, he did!
Clipper
Posted by Phillipa on December 19, 2007, at 19:50:30
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue » bleauberry, posted by clipper40 on December 19, 2007, at 18:48:22
And he's still doing well. Takes Deplin too. But my Mother had addison's disease from too much cortisone in the 50's it is a very powerful med. Phillipa
Posted by clipper40 on December 19, 2007, at 20:12:11
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue » clipper40, posted by Phillipa on December 19, 2007, at 19:50:30
> And he's still doing well. Takes Deplin too. But my Mother had addison's disease from too much cortisone in the 50's it is a very powerful med. Phillipa
That's great news about Scott.
This place just isn't the same without him!
Posted by clipper40 on December 19, 2007, at 20:18:19
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue, posted by bleauberry on December 19, 2007, at 18:16:52
Also, doesn't tianeptine normalize cortisol production and function?
Posted by Polarbear206 on December 19, 2007, at 22:42:05
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue, posted by bleauberry on December 19, 2007, at 18:16:52
> The pattern everyone here has described is experienced by practically everyone who has adrenal fatigue. Cortisol fluctuates and follows a curve through the circadian rhythme. But stress, illness, hidden infections, poor diet, and psychiatric illnesses put so much stress on the adrenal glands that the cortisol curve gets thrown out of sync. It is quite common for there to be an afternoon dip that is worse than any other time of day, usually between 1pm and 4pm. The morning and daytime fatigue and glum mood is the low cortisol; the evening bounce is cortisol on the rise...but at the wrong time.
>
> I had this pattern too. It was so perplexing. Really tired and glum all day. For 2 years every single day the pattern repeated...morning fatigue and depression, a bad sinking in mid afternoon, and a nice bounce in the evening, usually at 7pm, but on rare ocassions when I stayed up later it was even better by midnight. This pattern has mellowed somewhat, but it is still there.
>
> It can be diagnosed with a 24 hour saliva test (4 samples) of salivary cortisol. You can see your curve plotted on a graph and see where the hills and valleys are and how they correlate almost exactly with your mood and energy.
>
> Treatment is tough. Diet is an important basic. Very little sugar. Eliminate or reduce coffee. Focus on meats and veggies, cut down on carbs. But those just set the stage for healing. I've seen in books where doctors heal patients with just diet, but it takes 2 to 3 years.
>
> Adrenal cortex (NOT adrenal glandular) extracts are helpful and usually essential to support the adrenal glands. Allergy Research or Thorne make good ones. Adrenal cortex during the day. Some doctors will prescribe phsyiological replacement doses of hyrdocortisone ranging from 5mg to max 20mg per day. If cortisol is too high at night, phosphatidyle serine will tame it down. The symptoms of it can also be tamed down with gabaergic things like valerian, passion flower, and benzodiazepines.
>
> Though the evening bounce feels good, it is ultimately destructive. As long as that curve is not right, it stresses the entire body and brain in terms of immune response, mood, energy, digestion, and sensitivities.
>
> Some of the psych meds we are all familiar with actually correct the cortisol curve. Some make it worse, such as stimulants or Prozac. Some of our drugs might have even caused it. If you were ever on a drug that caused you longterm anxiety or akathisia, your adrenal glands were taxed to the max. The ones that in research have normalized the cortisol curve are Nardil, Lexapro, Nortriptyline, and St Johns Wort. The common adrenal balancers such as ginsengs and rhodiola mostly tend to reduce cortisol but not balance it. It is my guess that a lot of the antidepressant effect of antidepressants is not due to the direct action on neurotransmitters, but rather the longterm normalizing of the adrenal gland/cortisol axis and its relation to circadian curve as an indirect result of the action on the neurotransmitters. But this takes in the neighborhood of 3 months to occur, so many people who have not improved on their drug by then have long dropped out already and never saw the benefit just around the corner.
>
> I sometimes think of Scott who was a longtimer here. He suffered for so long waiting for Nardil to kick in. What, it must have been 3 months or something like that? Long time. It did finally kick in. I can't help but lean toward the belief that his adrenal/cortisol/circadian axis was at the root of it all and Nardil fixed it. Adrenal problems take time to correct, usually 3 months to 2 years.
>
> Anyway, it is no secret that the adrenal/cortisol/circadian curve is involved in most mood disorders. And it is no surprise that everyone in this thread including me is experiencing a version of the same thing. It's called adrenal fatigue. Easily recognizable, easily diagnosed, correctable but takes time and dedicated strategy. When the curve is right and normalized, that evening bounce we all get is what normal healthy people feel all day long. When the curve is right, everything in our body and brain works. When it isn't, nothing works right.
>
> Sorry so long. Basically, the pattern of daytime fatigue with an evening recovery is typical in almost 100% of people with adrenal fatigue or hypoadrenalism.
>
>
Check this out and I'd like to hear your feedbackhttp://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walsh.htm#Bi
Posted by saturn on December 20, 2007, at 18:51:54
In reply to Things turn 'on' around 7:00, posted by linkadge on December 18, 2007, at 20:49:31
>>> Anyone else have this problem? I feel tired and out of it all day long, then at like 7:00 everthing just "starts up". Everbody else in the world is starting to relax for the evening, but I'm just the opposite.
Yeah...for me this results in insomnia and considerable daytime fatigue. A sleep specialist called it delayed sleep phase syndrome in my case. I'm a night owl. Days can be a struggle.
Posted by linkadge on December 20, 2007, at 21:59:59
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00 » linkadge, posted by saturn on December 20, 2007, at 18:51:54
Yeah, thats what my psychiatrist said too: Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome.
It is very disrupting.
I wish there were more answers than AP's.
Linkadge
Posted by bleauberry on December 20, 2007, at 22:43:03
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue » bleauberry, posted by clipper40 on December 19, 2007, at 18:48:22
> Exactly what I've been dealing with!
Usually when someone has adrenal fatigue but they don't know it, and then they read a description of it, they suddenly see what's going on.
>
> I'd like to add that most traditional doctors don't recognize adrenal fatigue.True. The tests endos give basically just say if your adrenals are dead or alive, with no consideration at all of how well or poorly they are working, or how wide the normal range is, or how someone's optimal level might be outside the normal range. Kind of like checking for a heartbeat of someone with a history of heart attacks, hearing a heart beat, and saying your heart is normal and ok.
> My holistic doctor prescribed Sub-Adrene (adrenal cortex extract).
Haven't heard of that one.
Diet does help, especially the part about cutting down or eliminating sugars and caffeine.
> I'm also planning on adding licorice and ashwaganda herbs to my schedule. Do you know if these normalize or just reduce cortisol?Ashwaghands is touted as balancing adrenal function, and maybe it does, but the scientific stuff I saw said it lowered cortisol. I don't know. Licorice is excellent though. It prevents the breakdown of your own cortisol, so the little you make stays around longer. Kind of like how an MAOI works to keep neurotransmitters from breaking down. Still though, even with that boost, some people still need more adrenal support.
> Clipper
Posted by bleauberry on December 20, 2007, at 22:48:55
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue » bleauberry, posted by Polarbear206 on December 19, 2007, at 22:42:05
>
> Check this out and I'd like to hear your feedback
>
> http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walsh.htm#Bi
>Excellent stuff. If more chronically ill psych patients were to enlist a doctor who would help them rule out diagnosis or confirm diagnosis with these things objectively, there would be a lot of healed people.
Posted by Phillipa on December 20, 2007, at 23:00:05
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue, posted by bleauberry on December 20, 2007, at 22:48:55
Well I googled it and it's exactly what I have. Have been this way since childhood. So just accept it? Phillipa
Posted by clipper40 on December 21, 2007, at 0:16:31
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00 » linkadge, posted by saturn on December 20, 2007, at 18:51:54
You can have both adrenal fatigue and delayed sleep phase syndrome. From what I have read, they often go hand in hand. Delayed sleep phase people tend to be night owls and they tend to want to go to sleep later each night. The part that you describe of not feeling awake until many hours after you've gotten up sounds like the adrenal fatigue part. Since people with this problem don't feel alive until many hours after getting out of bed. They're finally feeling normal and alive and mentally sharper very late in the day so they don't want to go to sleep at that point. They want to finally get some things done and savor the feeling of awakeness. So you can see how each condition would feed the other.
I'm quite certain I have both conditions and it's very tough for me to deal with. I'm having a lot of trouble getting on, and staying on, a normal schedule. I'm also finding it very difficult to get anything accomplished. It's that much harder because most other people don't understand either of these conditions.
Posted by clipper40 on December 21, 2007, at 0:34:50
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue, posted by bleauberry on December 20, 2007, at 22:43:03
>>Usually when someone has adrenal fatigue but they don't know it, and then they read a description of it, they suddenly see what's going on.
Exactly how it happened with me! I finally knew that what I was dealing with had a name and could be treated.
>>True. The tests endos give basically just say if your adrenals are dead or alive, with no consideration at all of how well or poorly they are working, or how wide the normal range is, or how someone's optimal level might be outside the normal range. Kind of like checking for a heartbeat of someone with a history of heart attacks, hearing a heart beat, and saying your heart is normal and ok.
LOL. Great analogy!
In the book I have, "Adrenal Fatigue" by James L. Wilson, N.D., D.C., PhD, he recommends Ashwaganda but I'll definitely have to do more research on it before I take it. I don't need my cortisol lowered any further!
I think I'll try adding licorice for now. I'm going to be cutting out the refined sugar and limiting coffee to half a cup of caffeinated in the morning as well. I really want to get better!! Can't stand this low level functioning much longer.
>>Haven't heard of that one. [Sub-Adrene]
Sub-Adrene is a liquid that you take sub-lingually. It's made by American Biologics.
I'm going to check out the glandulars you mentioned also for when I finish the bottle of Sub-Adrene.Thanks for your feedback.
Clipper
Posted by clipper40 on December 21, 2007, at 0:41:42
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue, posted by Phillipa on December 20, 2007, at 23:00:05
No, you don't have to just accept it. If you have delayed phase sleep syndrome, you can use melatonin and lightboxes to help regulate your sleep cycle.
For adrenal fatigue, the treatment consists of cutting out caffeine and sugar from your diet, getting 8 hours of sleep a night, taking a reputable glandular like the ones Bleauberry mentioned, taking adequate B & C vitamins. Herbs like licorice can help too. If the condition is severe, some doctors prescribe a little cortisol. There are articles and books on treatment of this for more detail.
Posted by clipper40 on December 21, 2007, at 5:48:52
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue » Phillipa, posted by clipper40 on December 21, 2007, at 0:41:42
In my last few messages I mentioned adrenal glandulars. That's wrong. It should have read "adrenal cortex extracts" instead.
Posted by Phillipa on December 21, 2007, at 18:42:09
In reply to Correction- Adrenal Cortex Extracts- not glandular, posted by clipper40 on December 21, 2007, at 5:48:52
But what if your endo did a blood draw and said you were okay? Cortisone can make a person pschotic too as a side effect. My sister gets poison ivy yearly and has to take the medrol pack and it drives her nuts????? Phillipa
Posted by clipper40 on December 21, 2007, at 18:55:41
In reply to Re: Correction- Adrenal Cortex Extracts- not glandular » clipper40, posted by Phillipa on December 21, 2007, at 18:42:09
You don't have to take cortisol. Just take the adrenal cortex extract.
Besides, you don't want to raise your cortisol levels above the normal range in most cases anyway. You just want to make up for what you're missing.
Posted by bleauberry on December 21, 2007, at 18:56:55
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue » bleauberry, posted by clipper40 on December 21, 2007, at 0:34:50
I think the way adaptogenic herbs like ashwaghanda work is by blunting the cortisol response. They smooth out and dampen the response to nervous situations, with an overall lowering of cortisol early in treatment but a normalizing of cortisol later. This perhaps gives the adrenals a needed rest and allows them to heal. My doc said these herbs take at least 2 months to 6 months to work. Maybe that's why.
The only reason I mentioned the other 2 brands of cortex is because they are the ones recommended by people at chelation forums who have adrenal fatigue as a primary health problem. They've already done the experimenting, trial and error, and research. The underground research likes those two brands.
Posted by bleauberry on December 21, 2007, at 19:03:07
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue, posted by Phillipa on December 20, 2007, at 23:00:05
Clipper40 is correct. It can be changed and modified. But it takes lifestyle changes as well as specific supplements and diets. And while we all know psych drugs take time to work, it takes probably double or triple that amount of time to get adrenals where you want them. So it requires a plan and some stick-to-it-iveness.
I know over the years how your thyroid situation was weird, being too high, then too low, then ok, etc. Well, not well known to most thyroid docs, is that if the adrenals aren't working right, thyroid treatment won't either. Practically everyone at chelation forums who tried to fix their thyroid first before fixing their adrenals got worse and felt sicker. Those who fixed their adrenals first fared so much better in terms of antidepressant treatment thyroid treatment.
Posted by clipper40 on December 21, 2007, at 19:04:08
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue » clipper40, posted by bleauberry on December 21, 2007, at 18:56:55
Interesting about the way adaptogens work. I'll definitely wait on the Ashwaganda.
If the underground research likes those two brands, then that's good enough for me. Why reinvent the wheel? Have any of the people you've spoken to online fully recovered from this? I'd sure love to hear about a success story. Nothing can be fixed with my apathy/lack of motivation until this condition is resolved.
Posted by Phillipa on December 21, 2007, at 19:32:10
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue » Phillipa, posted by bleauberry on December 21, 2007, at 19:03:07
So what do I do first so many people not you guys are stressing me so bad I'm about to throw in the towel and just plain feel sick. Too tired to even care. Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on December 22, 2007, at 19:38:57
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue » bleauberry, posted by Phillipa on December 21, 2007, at 19:32:10
Ashwaganda could be a good herb. No hurt in trying it a few days to test the waters. If it feel ok, keep going. It is a beneficial herb.
In research there is a combo shown to lower cortisol that was too high but at the same time raise cortisol that is too low...siberian ginseng+astragalus. I know a mercury toxic woman who is on that combo. She also takes adrenal cortex and at night 25mg amitriptyline. She is close to normal, a year after being in a psych ward, with just those supplements and a careful diet.
Lots of the online forum people do get well. They range all the way from autistic children to old mom and pop. There is a common thread with them all...it takes time. 2 months to 2 years is common for adrenal problems.
You say your symptoms cannot be fixed until the adrenals are addressed. I think that is partially true, but that there is a lot more hope than you think. Simple supplements can work fast and strong, if they are the right ones that your biochemistry needs. Easier said than done, since every natural doc out there has their own favorite, and every book has its own magic formula.
Common good ones for your symptoms, which may or may not work, but should be tops on your list of things to try right now...folate 800mcg-1200mcg; SAMe 200mg-800mg, histidine, tyrosine, forskolin, hydergine, adrafinil. There are others. Most might be useless to you. It would not be surprising if one was fantastic. These are all directed at the type of depression you have.
Posted by bleauberry on December 22, 2007, at 19:55:29
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue » bleauberry, posted by clipper40 on December 21, 2007, at 19:04:08
Clipper, the previous post was for you. Forgot to put your name on it.
A few other thoughts after I posted...
Salt...real important for adrenal fatigue. It is desirable to increase your intake of salt. Most especially an hour or so prior to the time of day you feel the worst sinking. It is common for people to take a 1/2 or 1 tsp of salt in water at that time. Getting electrolytes up is important. Use both regualar salt as well as the lite salt (electrolytes are potassium, sodium, chloride, magnesium, and sulfate). Sodium and chloride from salt. Potassium and chloride from lite salt. Magnesium from any form you like. Basically, just take more salt.
On the alternative board there has been talk of the herb Vitex having motivational anti-anhdedonia qualities. I am about to try it. No mention of it in the underground though.
The single best supplements I've ever tried for symptoms like yours were: adrafinil; folate; SAMe. The folate and SAMe were on their own, while the adrafinil was in combo with prozac. Actually St Johns Wort worked real well too, though it lost its effect after a couple months. I did not know better at the time, but a popular strategy at sjwinfo.org (a st johns wort forum) is to do the illogical...reduce the dose to restore effectiveness.
Just some more ideas. One of the things I've mentioned is bound to help you feel better quickly. Cure takes longer. But you deserve to feel better fast so you can get on with daily life and healing.
Posted by Phillipa on December 22, 2007, at 21:49:45
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue, posted by bleauberry on December 22, 2007, at 19:38:57
Not to hyjack the thread but what is quick acting with what seems like the flu? Phillipa
Posted by clipper40 on December 23, 2007, at 2:05:32
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue, posted by bleauberry on December 22, 2007, at 19:38:57
So Siberian Ginseng might not be good for low cortisol but when combined with astragalus, it is? Or maybe that combo just worked out well for that woman? Astragalus is supposed to be good for the immune system so probably wouldn't hurt to try them together. I'm going to try licorice first though. I'll also try ashwaganda down the line.
What an amazing recovery for that woman! Pretty amazing to be that sick and recover with supplements (and I'm assuming some kind of chelation therapy at some point). Thanks. It's very helpful to hear about the success stories.
I've tried many of the supplements/medications you recommended but haven't taken histidine, forskolin or hydergine. Forskolin is on my list. Hadn't considered histidine but will definitely look into it. Hydergine was a medication that I wanted to try ASAP but have gotten very afraid of it because it's an ergot derivative. Do you think it's safe?
Posted by clipper40 on December 23, 2007, at 2:22:31
In reply to Re: Things turn 'on' around 7:00...Adrenal Fatigue » clipper40, posted by bleauberry on December 22, 2007, at 19:55:29
Good to know that the substitute salt works as well. I've been trying to get more salt. The book I read recommended keeping potassium low and sodium high. It's kind of old so may be a bit out dated. It also recommended that I drink warm water with salt in it when I wake up in the morning. I have no doubt that would be good for me but if I knew that's what I had to look forward to in the AM, I'd NEVER get out of bed! EVER!!!!
My minerals, including magnesium, were on the low side when last tested even though I take supplements fairly regularly so possibly due to low stomach acid which I think I read recently is a consequence of low cortisol as well.
I used to go to that SJW forum but haven't been there in a while. I didn't realize that they recommend lowering dosage to reinstate efficacy. I have read here recently on the meds board about that same strategy. Very counter-intuitive but worth trying if a lot of people are finding success with it.
I'm very interested in hearing how you do with Vitex. I've recently added that to my list to try. I haven't done well in the past on herbs but I haven't given up on them yet. I still have quite a few things to try while I work on fixing the adrenal function. If none of them pan out, then hopefully by then I'll be well enough to try something like Trivastal.
Thanks again for all of your suggestions!
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