![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sdb on September 25, 2007, at 14:06:24
is there somebody having this and do you think longterm damage after ssri treatment is more frequent than previously believed?
warm regards
sdb
Posted by iforgotmypassword on September 25, 2007, at 14:40:23
In reply to not reversible damage because of ssri treatment, posted by sdb on September 25, 2007, at 14:06:24
hoping it gets better with ECT.
Posted by linkadge on September 25, 2007, at 14:41:50
In reply to not reversible damage because of ssri treatment, posted by sdb on September 25, 2007, at 14:06:24
I do believe I am suffering some symptoms of dammage from SSRI treatment.
I don't know what the prevailance is, but I would argue that stuff like this is supressed/downplayed.
Linkadge
Posted by bleauberry on September 25, 2007, at 16:09:25
In reply to not reversible damage because of ssri treatment, posted by sdb on September 25, 2007, at 14:06:24
My doctor told me SSRIs cause longterm damage in the way the body metabolizes tryptophan into serotonin. I was also shown photos of neurotransmitter receptors after months of SSRI exposure and the dendrites on them were all shriveled up and deformed, and the outer sheath of cells gets damaged. Not sure if the damage is long lasting, permanent, or curable. Doc says there are protocols to repair such damage that involve high doses of the phospholipids phosphatydyl serine, phos.inositol, phos.acetylcoline and a couple others I didn't recognize. At the very least, fish oil and flax oil can help. Gingko biloba, st johns wort, or acetyl-l-carnitine have been reported to repair and grow new brain cells.
In any case, my doctor does prescribe SSRIs as a last resort, but he says they are neurotoxic. I agree that evidence of this is probably being downplayed or suppressed. After all, the kind of research to conclusively prove damage would be expensive, and the only people with that kind of money are the people that make the drugs. It is not exactly in their best interest I would not think.
Posted by Phillipa on September 25, 2007, at 17:25:31
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatment, posted by bleauberry on September 25, 2007, at 16:09:25
Bleuberry what type of conditions does he prescribe them for. What is last resort? Love Phillipa
Posted by rskontos on September 25, 2007, at 17:33:21
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatment » bleauberry, posted by Phillipa on September 25, 2007, at 17:25:31
I read some of this research when I went searching and I believe that the brain is damage by SSRI. And with such short trials of course we don't have all the information we need before we start them. I know my memory is affected. I read I don't remember the site about the damage to the neurotransmitters and that the brain zaps etc were due the brain having to in my simple layterms make new ones. I can't site all the medical jargon this is simpleton terms I am repeating not the research I read but my interpretation. It is nice to know that there is a doc that is talking about this and spreading this knowledge which I venture not many are.
Posted by linkadge on September 25, 2007, at 18:43:24
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatment, posted by bleauberry on September 25, 2007, at 16:09:25
I don't mean to sound critical, but are you talking about a medical doctor or a naturalpathic doctor?
Its not that I don't trust naturalpaths, but sometimes they tend to overplay the toxicity of certain drugs in order to sell herbs.
Linkadge
Posted by mike lynch on September 25, 2007, at 22:52:56
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatment, posted by bleauberry on September 25, 2007, at 16:09:25
> My doctor told me SSRIs cause longterm damage in the way the body metabolizes tryptophan into serotonin. I was also shown photos of neurotransmitter receptors after months of SSRI exposure and the dendrites on them were all shriveled up and deformed, and the outer sheath of cells gets damaged. Not sure if the damage is long lasting, permanent, or curable. Doc says there are protocols to repair such damage that involve high doses of the phospholipids phosphatydyl serine, phos.inositol, phos.acetylcoline and a couple others I didn't recognize. At the very least, fish oil and flax oil can help. Gingko biloba, st johns wort, or acetyl-l-carnitine have been reported to repair and grow new brain cells.
>
> In any case, my doctor does prescribe SSRIs as a last resort, but he says they are neurotoxic. I agree that evidence of this is probably being downplayed or suppressed. After all, the kind of research to conclusively prove damage would be expensive, and the only people with that kind of money are the people that make the drugs. It is not exactly in their best interest I would not think.What? was he a medical doctor? Do you have any scientific articles, evidence to back this up? I ask this because I believe my brain was permanently damaged by ssri's because of several disturbances that have not returned to normal after quiting. And I have yet to see anything about the medical community acknowledging any brain damage, and i've been searching for years to see some acknowledgment that you are never the same after these drugs..
And are you sure the photos weren't of rats
Posted by Netch on September 26, 2007, at 15:18:14
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen, posted by mike lynch on September 25, 2007, at 22:52:56
I think most of the problems with SSRI comes from its side effects, especially anxiety and insomnia. All the induced stress will hurt the brain in the long run.
Netch
Posted by infectedmushrooms on September 26, 2007, at 15:36:38
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen, posted by Netch on September 26, 2007, at 15:18:14
any drug has the potential to cause long term side effects...especially when everyone has a different brain chemistry to begin with there is no way of telling how one person will react compared to another due to too many variables involved but drugs are claimed to be made universally safe when they are proven not to be by case studies and second-hand information on the internet...it mostly has to do with genetics and protective enzymes/vitamins that are still in the body that can protect one from long-term side effects...This also ties in with duration of use and dosage of the drugs at hand as well...this also ties in to prior drug use as well which makes one brain chemistry more vulnerable due to weakening of one's system and making one more vulnerable to the drug hitting the blood brain barrier faster making it easier to cause harsher brain damage..
for example you give someone a neuroleptic for 10 years and they don't get TD...you give another individual the same drug at the same dose for 2 weeks and they do get TD...there is just no way of determining how one will act which makes psychiatry a completely bogus profession without any science measuring one's neurotranmitter levels.. and the people that are practicing psychiatry will all burn in hell for many reasons than this but especially for damaging peoples lives due to side effects when they quit the drugs whether they think they are doing what is right or not b/c they remain their status of ignorance and use people as guineau pigs...
Posted by bleauberry on September 26, 2007, at 19:59:54
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatment » bleauberry, posted by linkadge on September 25, 2007, at 18:43:24
Hi Link,
No criticalness taken. He is a full fledged medical doctor. He studied nutrition. So he is more inclined to treat the whole body first, things such as diet, vitamin status, mineral status, adrenal and thyroid status, complete metabolic blood tests, toxicity, etc, to get an idea of where to go with supplements, precursors, and herbs. Prescription psychiatric meds are last on the list, but he does use them in low doses or when all else has failed, and he writes prescriptions for lots of other meds that are non-psychiatric.> I don't mean to sound critical, but are you talking about a medical doctor or a naturalpathic doctor?
>
> Its not that I don't trust naturalpaths, but sometimes they tend to overplay the toxicity of certain drugs in order to sell herbs.
>
>
> Linkadge
Posted by bleauberry on September 26, 2007, at 20:10:45
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen, posted by mike lynch on September 25, 2007, at 22:52:56
Getting the medical community to admit they've been injuring people would be about as difficult as getting mainstream dentists to admit mercury is bad. To prove these things would take huge dollars. They have no interest to either prove their own wrong doing or spend that kind of money. Anyone else wanting to prove something likely does not have the financial backing.
A few centuries ago everyone KNEW the earth was flat. A couple decades ago everyone KNEW ulcers were caused by stress. And plenty more examples. You can think of some. Just think what we will find out about what we KNOW now in years to come.
> > My doctor told me SSRIs cause longterm damage in the way the body metabolizes tryptophan into serotonin. I was also shown photos of neurotransmitter receptors after months of SSRI exposure and the dendrites on them were all shriveled up and deformed, and the outer sheath of cells gets damaged. Not sure if the damage is long lasting, permanent, or curable. Doc says there are protocols to repair such damage that involve high doses of the phospholipids phosphatydyl serine, phos.inositol, phos.acetylcoline and a couple others I didn't recognize. At the very least, fish oil and flax oil can help. Gingko biloba, st johns wort, or acetyl-l-carnitine have been reported to repair and grow new brain cells.
> >
> > In any case, my doctor does prescribe SSRIs as a last resort, but he says they are neurotoxic. I agree that evidence of this is probably being downplayed or suppressed. After all, the kind of research to conclusively prove damage would be expensive, and the only people with that kind of money are the people that make the drugs. It is not exactly in their best interest I would not think.
>
> What? was he a medical doctor? Do you have any scientific articles, evidence to back this up? I ask this because I believe my brain was permanently damaged by ssri's because of several disturbances that have not returned to normal after quiting. And I have yet to see anything about the medical community acknowledging any brain damage, and i've been searching for years to see some acknowledgment that you are never the same after these drugs..
>
> And are you sure the photos weren't of rats
Posted by Phillipa on September 26, 2007, at 22:01:53
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen » mike lynch, posted by bleauberry on September 26, 2007, at 20:10:45
Most ulcers are caused by e pyroli antibiotics get rid of them. Why low dose psych meds? I'm trying to understand. Phillipa
Posted by Jamal Spelling on September 27, 2007, at 2:28:55
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen » mike lynch, posted by bleauberry on September 26, 2007, at 20:10:45
> Getting the medical community to admit they've been injuring people would be about as difficult as getting mainstream dentists to admit mercury is bad. To prove these things would take huge dollars. They have no interest to either prove their own wrong doing or spend that kind of money.
Actually, it would be in the financial interests of dentists and medical technology companies to admit (were it true, that is) that latest research shows amalgam fillings are bad. Because then, millions of people would rush to their dentists to have their amalgam fillings replaced with expensive porcelain fillings (or whatever the alternative is) at great profit to dentists and tech companies. Business would be great!
Jamal
Posted by linkadge on September 27, 2007, at 12:09:05
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen » bleauberry, posted by Jamal Spelling on September 27, 2007, at 2:28:55
There is a lot of info that suggests SSRI's can cause permanant damage in certain circumstances.
The fact that a lot of it is animal research does not make it any less credable. Its not easy just to rip appart random SSRI users brains, and even if they did there would be so much argument that damage might be due to depression itself.
At least when a mouse study shows neuroanatomical changes, you can bet its from the drug.
Linkadge
Posted by mike lynch on September 27, 2007, at 17:44:02
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen » mike lynch, posted by bleauberry on September 26, 2007, at 20:10:45
> Getting the medical community to admit they've been injuring people would be about as difficult as getting mainstream dentists to admit mercury is bad. To prove these things would take huge dollars. They have no interest to either prove their own wrong doing or spend that kind of money. Anyone else wanting to prove something likely does not have the financial backing.
>
> A few centuries ago everyone KNEW the earth was flat. A couple decades ago everyone KNEW ulcers were caused by stress. And plenty more examples. You can think of some. Just think what we will find out about what we KNOW now in years to come.
>
> > > My doctor told me SSRIs cause longterm damage in the way the body metabolizes tryptophan into serotonin. I was also shown photos of neurotransmitter receptors after months of SSRI exposure and the dendrites on them were all shriveled up and deformed, and the outer sheath of cells gets damaged. Not sure if the damage is long lasting, permanent, or curable. Doc says there are protocols to repair such damage that involve high doses of the phospholipids phosphatydyl serine, phos.inositol, phos.acetylcoline and a couple others I didn't recognize. At the very least, fish oil and flax oil can help. Gingko biloba, st johns wort, or acetyl-l-carnitine have been reported to repair and grow new brain cells.
> > >
> > > In any case, my doctor does prescribe SSRIs as a last resort, but he says they are neurotoxic. I agree that evidence of this is probably being downplayed or suppressed. After all, the kind of research to conclusively prove damage would be expensive, and the only people with that kind of money are the people that make the drugs. It is not exactly in their best interest I would not think.
> >
> > What? was he a medical doctor? Do you have any scientific articles, evidence to back this up? I ask this because I believe my brain was permanently damaged by ssri's because of several disturbances that have not returned to normal after quiting. And I have yet to see anything about the medical community acknowledging any brain damage, and i've been searching for years to see some acknowledgment that you are never the same after these drugs..
> >
> > And are you sure the photos weren't of rats
>
>I appreciate that and agree with it too some extent. But I don't think you're doctor had these secret studies that proved ssri's caused brain damage. Because no such studies exist. IMO the level that ssri's damage is too deep to show up on any scans we are currently capable of doing. No tests can measure neurotransmitters, and if they're damaged or not.
Posted by rskontos on September 30, 2007, at 11:43:21
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen, posted by mike lynch on September 27, 2007, at 17:44:02
I dont think they are secret studies and I do believe they exist because my own neuro spoke to me about the damage but in her opinion the brain would heal. That was her exact words that the brain would heal. It can't heal if it wasn't damaged. I remember finding literature on this online. It might take me a while to refind it as it was on a different computer and I lost it when I switched, pc to mac, I didn't bother saving it. And I was in a bad state going off cymbalta but in my research the information was there. I didn't imagine it.
Posted by rskontos on September 30, 2007, at 11:46:51
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen, posted by rskontos on September 30, 2007, at 11:43:21
I understand not wanting to think that we can be damaged from taking these drugs but that isn't practical or logical. I mean it is a risk to take anything into your system. In this day and age, it would seem even eating the food produced in this country or others can be risky. We can't hide from the fact that not everyone has our interest at heart, and most don't; we must be educated ourselves whenever we take anything into our bodies. It used to be buyer beware in the retail market but that has extented itself into the medical community as well.
Posted by fuzz54 on October 2, 2007, at 13:55:03
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen, posted by rskontos on September 30, 2007, at 11:46:51
I don't doubt that we don't really understand how psych meds affect the brain and body. They are almost certain to make some big changes in the brain's chemistry and structures. However, to assume these changes are "damage" is a whole different issue. Perhaps some of the changes are helpful, while others are damaging. We just don't know yet. Until psychology and psychiatry become more of a hard science there are too many unknowns. All we can do is measure progress towards some sort of goal (lower suicide rate?) and figure out why certain meds worked and how they worked (and possibly caused brain damage) later on. If that's the wrong way to do it then somebody needs to write their local government officals to do what they can to change FDA policies.
Personally, when I am down in the dumps and a danger to myself I would like to have access to a medication that solves the immediate situation rather than worry about what it will do to me 10 years down the road. When I am down in the dumps without hope the risks are acceptable.
On a side note, I have noticed that after 2 months off of any psych med my sex drive still hasn't gone back to normal. That might be permanent, but since I am alive and well with lower anxiety and depression levels it was worth it.
Posted by linkadge on October 2, 2007, at 21:54:01
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen, posted by fuzz54 on October 2, 2007, at 13:55:03
I think there is some pretty compelling research that certain medicaitons can cause significant long term negative biological/structural changes.The fact that schizophrenics are not made aware of certain issues with their medications is unsettling. Some doctors feel it is their right to make executive decisions for the patient. You can't blame them as I suppose it is as they were trained.
I don't understand people who are like, "well if it helps me now, who cares what it does to me long term".
That logic comes in degrees. Nobody would use that as an argument to start smoking crack for depression. The point is that the brain has coping mechanisms designed to let go of things that are far enough in the future. While that may work for things beyond ones control one would need to be thourogly convinced that such risks are indeed beyond ones control.
What if the drug makes the brain worse long term in a way that will make it harder to recover for subsequent mood episodes? I'd hate think that my stint with SSRI's is the reason depression is even harder shake now. Its like I can't function without one, even years after being off them.
If it was just dammaging my liver that'd be ok, but the notion that I might be damaging my serotonin neurons in a way that makes recovery from depression harder in the future is pretty scary. The hole for me is indeed deeper after having been exposed to the drugs, who knows.
Perhaps its just like how some parkinsons meds actually cause the disease to progress faster than it might if no treatment was initiated.
Linkadge
Posted by infectedmushrooms on October 3, 2007, at 0:01:34
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen, posted by linkadge on October 2, 2007, at 21:54:01
Interesting anology with parkinson's patients...
In parkinson's the cause is usually metal toxicity in the body that never gets resolved...And then drugs are taken to cover up the symptoms of parkinsons but don't get to the root of the problem leaving the individual worse off by taking the dopermergenics that increase more heavy metal toxicity in the liver and supersensitize dopamine receptors even more...
Same thing holds true with people with depression, anxiety, etc...There is a deep rooted issue like a mental toxicity from numerous causes even physical sometimes...that goes unresolved and bc our society covers up problems and doesn't like to fix them the following dilemas are faced...
Those dilemmas are...1. Possible psychological or physical dependence on the drug or drugs...
2. The underlying problem that was being covered up still isn't solved and is harder to face now without drugs due to gene expression changes...
3. Physical side effects of the drug that make the person feel like crap that they had to take drugs to begin when terrible side effects don't always go away on their own when they are told by "reliable sources" the drugs are safe
4. People telling you that it is your fault the side effects are still in you when deep down inside you know they are 100% induced by the drugs making you feel worse off than before....So in conclusion a person can end up having more problems b/c of drugs..But i can't say this holds true for everyone but it definitely holds few to many which doesn't justify a lot of thing that are currently going on with the drug industries and psychiatry...I am not against drugs...Sometimes individuals need drugs to cope or to solve unsolvable problems but all side effects should be known and thoroughly researched and an individual should have the option to choose the drug that he/she desires based on knowing all the options available and all the side effects of every drug...And a major reason for many health problems is also not using common sense in this country b/c they are not being taught common sense in med school doctors are taught a standard protocol of approaching every patient...
That is why i am glad to be living in a time where there is the internet where information is being spread at rapid speed and the truth will have to prevail eventually....
> I think there is some pretty compelling research that certain medicaitons can cause significant long term negative biological/structural changes.
>
> The fact that schizophrenics are not made aware of certain issues with their medications is unsettling. Some doctors feel it is their right to make executive decisions for the patient. You can't blame them as I suppose it is as they were trained.
>
> I don't understand people who are like, "well if it helps me now, who cares what it does to me long term".
>
> That logic comes in degrees. Nobody would use that as an argument to start smoking crack for depression. The point is that the brain has coping mechanisms designed to let go of things that are far enough in the future. While that may work for things beyond ones control one would need to be thourogly convinced that such risks are indeed beyond ones control.
>
> What if the drug makes the brain worse long term in a way that will make it harder to recover for subsequent mood episodes? I'd hate think that my stint with SSRI's is the reason depression is even harder shake now. Its like I can't function without one, even years after being off them.
>
> If it was just dammaging my liver that'd be ok, but the notion that I might be damaging my serotonin neurons in a way that makes recovery from depression harder in the future is pretty scary. The hole for me is indeed deeper after having been exposed to the drugs, who knows.
>
> Perhaps its just like how some parkinsons meds actually cause the disease to progress faster than it might if no treatment was initiated.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
Posted by sdb on October 3, 2007, at 2:02:39
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen » linkadge, posted by infectedmushrooms on October 3, 2007, at 0:01:34
'Interesting anology with parkinson's patients...
first the dopaminergic agents and then after longterm treatment with levodopa, dystonic, athetotic and hyperkinetic movements like veitstanz can result. That side effect does not look funny.
Posted by fuzz54 on October 3, 2007, at 11:42:50
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen, posted by linkadge on October 2, 2007, at 21:54:01
>
> I think there is some pretty compelling research that certain medicaitons can cause significant long term negative biological/structural changes.
>
> The fact that schizophrenics are not made aware of certain issues with their medications is unsettling. Some doctors feel it is their right to make executive decisions for the patient. You can't blame them as I suppose it is as they were trained.
>
> I don't understand people who are like, "well if it helps me now, who cares what it does to me long term".
>
I agree completely on the long term effects of schizophrenic meds and perhaps bipolar meds to a lesser degree based on what I have read about them. But those meds are used to treat conditions more severe than a single depressive episode that needs a serotonin boost to go away.As for my opinion on being willing to take a drug in the short-term that could have long term side effects, I'm talking about me being at the point of not being alive anymore. Being alive on a day-to-day basis is more important than what happens a year or 5 years later. I saw the pattern I was in of worsening depressions to the point where I knew what the outcome was going to be sooner or later. Through therapy and then SSRIs with therapy I have broken that cycle and probably saved my life. I'll deal with the side effects as they come up and be glad that I am alive. That's a choice though, and not a mandate for everyone in my situation.
That being said, people with side effects that put them in the same place as they were when they started the meds are in a different boat. And I guess that's where the risk is. You can't tell if you'll be one of those people before you start down the road of experimenting with psych meds. I think it would take years and years of studies to get a firm handle on that issue and get the news out to doctors, but I agree that is something worth doing and publicizing.
Posted by sdb on October 11, 2007, at 2:22:09
In reply to Re: not reversible damage because of ssri treatmen » linkadge, posted by fuzz54 on October 3, 2007, at 11:42:50
in an 8-week trial fluoxetine seems to have positive effects. Indication for alzheimer...?
1: J Clin Psychopharmacol. 2007 Feb;27(1):67-70.Click here to read Links
Does fluoxetine have any effect on the cognition of patients with mild cognitive impairment? A double-blind, placebo-controlled, clinical trial.
Mowla A, Mosavinasab M, Pani A.Department of Psychiatry, Shiraz University Medical Sciences, Shiraz, Iran. mowlaar@sums.ac.ir
OBJECTIVES: Mild cognitive impairment (MCI) may be a prodromal state for Alzheimer disease. Recent research suggest a role for other neuronal systems such as monoaminergic hypofunction beside cholinergic dysfunction in age-related cognitive decline. In several studies, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors demonstrated promotion of neurogenesis in the hippocampus. In this study, the effects of fluoxetine, a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, on memory and cognition of patients with mild cognitive impairment has been studied. METHOD: Fifty-eight nondepressed patients with MCI were randomly assigned to take fluoxetine or placebo. The patients were administered the Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV (Diagnosis and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition) Disorders, the Mini-Mental Status Examination (MMSE), subtests from the Persian standardized Wechsler Memory Scale III (WMS-III) preintervention. Forty-four patients completed the 8-week trial. Treatment response was defined as improvement in the scores of MMSE, subtests of WMS-III, and Clinical Global Impression. RESULT: The patients in the fluoxetine group showed improvement in MMSE and immediate and delayed logical memory scores of WMS-III. The placebo group had no significant changes in the cognitive measurements. CONCLUSION: Fluoxetine enhanced memory and cognition in the patients. This was consistent with previous studies that emphasized the role of fluoxetine in improving memory and promoting neurogenesis in the hippocampus. However, this is a preliminary study with small sample size, and larger double-blind placebo-controlled studies are needed to confirm these findings.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.