![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 24 to 48 of 133. Go back in thread:
Posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 21:19:12
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 20:47:07
Heather Ashton has produced the most comprehensive and accurate guide to benzodiazepine use and withdrawal ever written. She and her immediate colleagues are not scientologists. I am as sure of it as I possibly can be. That accusation is all too common and easy to throw around here as defensiveness toward any criticism of current psychiatric practice. It is also the last resort of people who know they are out of their depth and have no sound argument to present.
It seems to me that you're speaking out in anger against some perceived attack. I suggest you take them time to calm down and re-read the Ashton Manual thoroughly. I'm sure you will find that on the whole it is a thorough and well researched scientific document. I'm curious about the example you cite - would you please provide a link and quotation from the passage in question?
Here is a brief account of Prof. Heather Ashton's career - an impressive CV not typical of the average scientologist I'm sure:
__________________________________________________ABOUT PROFESSOR C HEATHER ASHTON, DM, FRCP
Chrystal Heather Ashton DM, FRCP is Emeritus Professor of Clinical Psycho-pharmacology at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne, England.
Professor Ashton is a graduate of the University of Oxford and obtained a First Class Honours Degree (BA) in Physiology in 1951. She qualified in Medicine (BM, BCh, MA) in 1954 and gained a postgraduate Doctor of Medicine (DM) in 1956. She qualified as MRCP (Member of the Royal College of Physicians, London) in 1958 and was elected FRCP (Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians, London) in 1975. She also became National Health Service Consultant in Clinical Psychopharmacology in 1975 and National Health Service Consultant in Psychiatry in 1994.
She has worked at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne as researcher (Lecturer, Senior Lecturer, Reader and Professor) and clinician since 1965, first in the Department of Pharmacology and latterly in the Department of Psychiatry. Her research has centred, and continues, on the effects of psychotropic drugs (nicotine, cannabis, benzodiazepines, antidepressants and others) on the brain and behaviour in man. Her main clinical work was in running a benzodiazepine withdrawal clinic for 12 years from 1982-1994.
She is at present involved with the North East Council for Addictions (NECA) of which she is former Vice-Chairman of the Executive Committee on which she still serves. She continues to give advice on benzodiazepine problems to counsellors and is patron of the Bristol & District Tranquilliser Project. She was generic expert in the UK benzodiazepine litigation in the 1980s and has been involved with the UK organisation Victims of Tranquillisers (VOT). She has submitted evidence about benzodiazepines to the House of Commons Health Select Committee.
She has published approximately 250 papers in professional journals, books and chapters in books on psychotropic drugs of which over 50 concern benzodiazepines. She has given evidence to various Government committees on tobacco smoking, cannabis and benzodiazepines and has given invited lectures on benzodiazepines in the UK, Australia, Sweden, Switzerland and other countries.
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha00.htm#3
__________________________________________________Q
Posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 21:39:08
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » dbc, posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 21:19:12
My problem was not with ashton nor did i say anything negative of her except that the titration schedules she reccomends seem extremely long and not needed.
As for benzo.uk.org, the individuals on their forums could very well be scientologists among other things as their behaviour and general attitude is rabid and scary.
Posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 21:42:14
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 21:39:08
>As for benzo.uk.org, the individuals on their forums could very well be scientologists among other things as their behaviour and general attitude is rabid and scary.
No sh*t? I wonder what those people would make of the behaviour of some of the people posting here in defence of benzodiazepines?
Q
Posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 21:58:23
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » dbc, posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 21:42:14
> No sh*t? I wonder what those people would make of the behaviour of some of the people posting here in defence of benzodiazepines?
>
> QYes, because my panic disorder is an ideology and im just rationalizing poorly when i show up at emergency rooms at 3 am complaining of a stroke and passing out repeatedly due to hyperventilation and having a blood pressure so high im asked more than once "so you walked into the emergency room on your own". This is a belief and not a mental disorder that i have. The benzos that i take are an extension of this ideology.
By the way im in CBT/talk therapy and have been previously.
Posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 22:12:32
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 21:58:23
As usual I'm not sure what you're getting at. I am not anti-med nor anti-psychiatrist, and I follow no fixed ideology.
>im just rationalizing poorly when i show up at emergency rooms at 3 am complaining of a stroke and passing out repeatedly due to hyperventilation and having a blood pressure so high im asked more than once "so you walked into the emergency room on your own".
That's right. Poor rationalization. You're not having a stroke - that's your imagination. I know the feeling since I too suffered panic attacks and extremely high blood pressure when I quit clonazepam cold turkey.
>The benzos that i take are an extension of this ideology.
The benzos that you take are just chemicals relax both your body and your over-active imagination during a crisis. They are not part of an ideology unless you choose to make them so.
>By the way im in CBT/talk therapy and have been previously.
Good to hear.
Q
Posted by yxibow on February 4, 2007, at 22:22:45
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 21:39:08
> My problem was not with ashton nor did i say anything negative of her except that the titration schedules she reccomends seem extremely long and not needed.
I would concur on that
> As for benzo.uk.org, the individuals on their forums could very well be scientologists among other things as their behaviour and general attitude is rabid and scary.
Its not clear that benzo.org.uk is "run" by her -- it seems to be some other person disseminating information. I'm not clear of the connection between the foresaid individual and the site.
But while some people may get benefit from that site on here and we've gotten into ridiculous nanny-gate deputy slaps about the site, I think I will stay out of the foray because while I too think the whole thing is kind of scary and we've had several "trolls" about benzodiazepines not to mention a recent person I won't mention who seems to be anti-medicine and new to the board.
Posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 23:06:29
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » dbc, posted by yxibow on February 4, 2007, at 22:22:45
__________________________________________________
> My problem was not with ashton nor did i say anything negative of her except that the titration schedules she reccomends seem extremely long and not needed.
I would concur on that
__________________________________________________In his initial post dbc posted this statement:
>Despite how nice it is what she said The Ashton Manual is complete and utter b*llshit.
Hardly a complement to the venerable Prof. Heather Ashton.
Prof. Ashton's suggested taper schedules are extremely long so as to give people plenty of space and time to adjust their lives around the schedule and produce no withdrawal symptoms at all if followed correctly. She has always maintained that people should adjust the schedules according to their own preferences and reduce the dose at their own pace, not hers, the doctors, the psychiatrist's or anyone else's. Believe me, that way is much better than a Gestapo style 'tough love' withdrawal advocated by some of the true ani-benzo fanatics.
>Its not clear that benzo.org.uk is "run" by her -- it seems to be some other person disseminating information. I'm not clear of the connection between the foresaid individual and the site.
I don't think benzo.org is run by Heather Ashton. I also suspect she has never launched a publicity campaign against benzos herself, but she has taken up invitations to give evidence as a professional speaker on their behalf. I know she has done her best to dissociate herself from those groups who have tried to use her work as a weapon in their scare-mongering to get benzos off the market.
>I think I will stay out of the foray because while I too think the whole thing is kind of scary and we've had several "trolls" about benzodiazepines not to mention a recent person I won't mention who seems to be anti-medicine and new to the board.
I hope you're not trying to imply any connection between myself and that person yxibow? By co-incidence he contacted me via RemedyFind some months ago and I told him my honest opinion then; that I think his perceived lingering symptoms of EPS from a single dose of amisulpride are psychosomatic and the result of negative expectations. Everything I've seen posted here since by that individual has reinforced my suspicions.
I started this thread when I came across Prof. Ashton's letter to Rosie Winterton earlier today when researching for a quote for a different thread. I thought it was excellent and disproved that she is not a benzophobic fanatic that will stop at nothing to rid the UK of those drugs and crush their users. That idea is just absurd, yet it remains incredibly popular here.
I think it's about time someone stood up for Heather Ashton with all the hard work she's done to help people caught up in benzo addiction against their will. What she did for benzos in the 1980s is similar to what many people here wish someone would do for drugs like Paxil and Effexor with their claims of unparalleled freedom from side-effects and withdrawal symptoms - she was an active professional that stood up to the medical profession against fierce criticism, to defend people who were suffering with no support and much ignorance and denial on the part of their doctors. I think she deserves some cheer for that and recognition for her effort, not derision and mindless sniping.>I think I will stay out of the foray
You entered the foray when you decided to post here.
Q
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 0:17:37
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » dbc, posted by yxibow on February 4, 2007, at 22:22:45
Something seems wrong with my last post - can't seem to load it into my web browser. I'll repost it here just in case it's disabled for some reason.
__________________________________________________
> My problem was not with ashton nor did i say anything negative of her except that the titration schedules she reccomends seem extremely long and not needed.
I would concur on that
__________________________________________________In his initial post dbc posted this statement:
>Despite how nice it is what she said The Ashton Manual is complete and utter b*llshit.
Hardly a complement to the venerable Prof. Heather Ashton.
Prof. Ashton's suggested taper schedules are extremely long so as to give people plenty of space and time to adjust their lives around the schedule and produce no withdrawal symptoms at all if followed correctly. She has always maintained that people should adjust the schedules according to their own preferences and reduce the dose at their own pace, not hers, the doctors, the psychiatrist's or anyone else's. Believe me, that way is much better than a Gestapo style 'tough love' withdrawal advocated by some of the true ani-benzo fanatics.
>Its not clear that benzo.org.anti is "run" by her -- it seems to be some other person disseminating information. I'm not clear of the connection between the foresaid individual and the site.
I don't think benzo.org is run by Heather Ashton. I also suspect she has never launched a publicity campaign against benzos herself, but she has taken up invitations to give evidence as a professional speaker on their behalf. I know she has done her best to dissociate herself from those groups who have tried to use her work as a weapon in their scare-mongering to get benzos off the market.
>I too think the whole thing is kind of scary and we've had several "trolls" about benzodiazepines not to mention a recent person I won't mention who seems to be anti-medicine and new to the board.
You finding a particular poster's views upsetting does not make them a 'troll'. I hope you're not trying to imply any connection between myself and that person yxibow? By co-incidence he contacted me via RemedyFind some months ago and I told him my honest opinion then; that I think his perceived lingering symptoms of EPS from a single dose of amisulpride are psychosomatic and the result of negative expectations. Everything I've seen posted here since by that individual has reinforced my suspicions.
I started this thread when I came across Prof. Ashton's letter to Rosie Winterton earlier today when researching for a quote for a different thread. I thought it was excellent and strongly suggested that she is not a benzophobic fanatic that will stop at nothing to rid the UK of those drugs and crush their users. That idea is just absurd, yet it remains incredibly popular here.
I think it's about time someone stood up for Heather Ashton with all the hard work she's done to help people caught up in benzo addiction against their will. What she did for benzos in the 1980s is similar to what many people here wish someone would do for drugs like Paxil and Effexor with their claims of unparalleled freedom from side-effects and withdrawal symptoms - she was an active professional that stood up to the medical profession against fierce criticism, to defend people who were suffering with no support and much ignorance and denial on the part of their doctors. I think she deserves some cheer for that and recognition for her effort, not derision and mindless sniping.>I think I will stay out of the foray
You entered the foray when you decided to post here.
Q
Posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 1:04:39
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » yxibow, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 0:17:37
> Something seems wrong with my last post - can't seem to load it into my web browser. I'll repost it here just in case it's disabled for some reason.
The board ate it, I already saw that
__________________________________________________
>
> > My problem was not with ashton nor did i say anything negative of her except that the titration schedules she reccomends seem extremely long and not needed.
>
> I would concur on that
> __________________________________________________
>
> In his initial post dbc posted this statement:
>
> >Despite how nice it is what she said The Ashton Manual is complete and utter b*llshit.
>
> Hardly a complement to the venerable Prof. Heather Ashton.Well he's entitled to his opinion too.
> Prof. Ashton's suggested taper schedules are extremely long so as to give people plenty of space and time to adjust their lives around the schedule and produce no withdrawal symptoms at all if followed correctly. She has always maintained that people should adjust the schedules according to their own preferences and reduce the dose at their own pace, not hers, the doctors, the psychiatrist's or anyone else's. Believe me, that way is much better than a Gestapo style 'tough love' withdrawal advocated by some of the true ani-benzo fanatics.Benzo tapers should be something done as a collaborative effort between a rational psychopharmacologist and his or her patient. But that doesn't mean that it takes 2 years to get off of a few milligrams of Valium nor does it say you should drop benzodiazepines like a lead brick.
I am well versed in the latter as engaging in that myself only to have half of the Tranxene given back by the worst psychiatrist I've ever had in my life and have permanent scalp spasms and head to toe "lockup", 10 years later.But, what do you figure of a male hating psychiatrist who ran the college psych counseling place like her fiefdom.
Granted they don't come often and aren't painful but I would oh so like Soma rather than Robaxin. At least I don't crack my neck now as much.
Anyhow, I think I've described that before. It still doesn't mean that I'm anti-benzo. In fact I think they're the safest psychiatric medications when used as directed and I would be in far worse condition now without them having a rare disorder.
No arguments of the prior, but it also shouldn't be purely run by the patient, witness my earlier foray that I just mentioned.
> >Its not clear that benzo.org.anti is "run" by her -- it seems to be some other person disseminating information. I'm not clear of the connection between the foresaid individual and the site.
>
> I don't think benzo.org is run by Heather Ashton. I also suspect she has never launched a publicity campaign against benzos herself, but she has taken up invitations to give evidence as a professional speaker on their behalf. I know she has done her best to dissociate herself from those groups who have tried to use her work as a weapon in their scare-mongering to get benzos off the market.
That's good, because that site is well.. I won't go further.> >I too think the whole thing is kind of scary and we've had several "trolls" about benzodiazepines not to mention a recent person I won't mention who seems to be anti-medicine and new to the board.
>
> You finding a particular poster's views upsetting does not make them a 'troll'. I hope you're not trying to imply any connection between myself and that person yxibow?
No its not directed at you at all. I'm not going to target individuals but a certain poster seemed vigorous about neuroleptics and spewed arguments including lumping criminals with the "mentally ill", which was rather offensive and never addressed, and then suggested that someone with an MAOI should use Luvox to address their akathisia. That's what I mean by trolling -- the deliberate posting of inflammatory and odd arguments to generate large amounts of waste of time posts.suggested that she is not a benzophobic fanatic that will stop at nothing to rid the UK of those drugs and crush their users. That idea is just absurd, yet it remains incredibly popular here.
Well that's fine, I didn't argue about that. The UK has always been behind with benzodiazepine dispensing.
> I think it's about time someone stood up for Heather Ashton with all the hard work she's done to help people caught up in benzo addiction against their will. What she did for benzos in the 1980s is similar to what many people here wish someone would do for drugs like Paxil and Effexor with their claims of unparalleled freedom from side-effects and withdrawal symptoms - she was an active professional that stood up to the medical profession against fierce criticism, to defend people who were suffering with no support and much ignorance and denial on the part of their doctors. I think she deserves some cheer for that and recognition for her effort, not derision and mindless sniping.
I'm not sure about the against their will part, but again I'll agree to disagree.The sniping came from the person who runs the site, not how decorated this professor may be.
>
> >I think I will stay out of the foray
>
> You entered the foray when you decided to post here.Perhaps, but we know that we have on file to agree to disagree already.
Posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 7:53:26
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » Quintal, posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 1:04:39
Here is what the Merck Manual has on benzos:
"Anxiolytics and Sedatives
Use of anxiolytics and sedatives (hypnotics) for medical purposes is common. Intoxication, with physical and mental impairment, can occur with acute use. Repetitive use can lead to abuse or dependence.Tolerance and tachyphylaxis develop irregularly and incompletely, so considerable behavioral, mood, and cognitive disturbances persist, even in a regular user, depending on the dosage and the drug's pharmacodynamic effects. Some cross-tolerance exists between alcohol and barbiturates and nonbarbiturate anxiolytics and sedatives, including benzodiazepines. (Barbiturates and alcohol are strikingly similar in the dependence, withdrawal symptoms, and chronic intoxication they produce.) When intake of anxiolytics and sedatives is reduced below a critical level, a self-limited withdrawal syndrome ensues.
Symptoms and Signs
Acute use: The signs of progressive anxiolytic and sedative intoxication are depression of superficial reflexes, fine lateral-gaze nystagmus, slightly decreased alertness with coarse or rapid nystagmus, ataxia, slurred speech, and postural unsteadiness. Further progression results in nystagmus on forward gaze, somnolence, marked ataxia with falling, confusion, deep sleep, constricted pupils, respiratory depression, and, ultimately, death. Patients taking large doses of sedatives frequently have difficulty thinking, slow speech and comprehension (with some dysarthria), poor memory, faulty judgment, narrowed attention span, and emotional lability.
Chronic use: In susceptible patients, psychologic dependence on the drug may develop rapidly, and after only a few weeks, attempts to stop using the drug exacerbate insomnia and result in restlessness, disturbing dreams, frequent awakening, and feelings of tension in the early morning. The extent of physical dependence is related to dose and duration of use; eg, pentobarbitalSome Trade Names
NEMBUTAL
Drug Information
200 mg/day taken for many months may not induce significant tolerance, but 300 mg/day for > 3 mo or 500 to 600 mg/day for 1 mo may induce a withdrawal syndrome when the drug is stopped.Withdrawal from barbiturates taken in large doses produces an abrupt withdrawal syndrome in the form of a severe, frightening, and potentially life-threatening illness similar to delirium tremens. Occasionally, even after properly managed withdrawal over 1 to 2 wk, a seizure occurs. Within the first 12 to 20 h after withdrawal of a short-acting barbiturate, the untreated patient becomes increasingly restless, tremulous, and weak. By the 2nd day, the tremulousness becomes more prominent, deep tendon reflexes may be increased, and the patient becomes weaker. During the 2nd and 3rd days, seizures occur in 75% of patients who were taking ≥ 800 mg/day. Seizures may progress to status epilepticus and death. From the 2nd to the 5th day, the untreated withdrawal syndrome includes delirium, insomnia, confusion, and frightening visual and auditory hallucinations. Hyperpyrexia and dehydration often occur.
Withdrawal from benzodiazepines produces a similar withdrawal syndrome, although it is rarely as severe or life threatening. Onset may be slow because the drugs remain in the body a long time. A withdrawal syndrome of varying severity has been reported in people who have taken therapeutic doses, although the prevalence of this unusual phenomenon is unknown. Withdrawal may be most severe in those who used drugs with rapid absorption and quick decline in serum levels....."
Much of what is said here is similar to Dr. Ashton's knowledge of benzos; you might do a search on PubMed as well. One cannot argue, with any serious credence, that the Merck Manual is authored by Scientologists. The only difference between the Benzo group and the mainstream group is that doctors in the Benzo group think it's a good idea to stay away from benzos, while mainstream doctors prescribe them as needed. Ideally, imho, benzos should be administered as needed, and when needed, and if needed, AND monitored during discontinuation.
Squiggles
Posted by valene on February 5, 2007, at 10:14:55
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 21:39:08
> As for benzo.uk.org, the individuals on their forums could very well be scientologists among other things as their behaviour and general attitude is rabid and scary.
I once read the site and even joined the forum a few years ago. Benzo.uk is owned by a guy who was "addicted to valium", said it ruined his life, and successfully sued his doctor and then set up the site.
When you join the forum, you must agree and I quote "benzodiazepines were created in the depths of hell by the very devil himself, and distributed freely here on earth by his demons". Hope that answers some questions about the origins of benzo.uk or whatever. I refuse to ever go back there, as it scared the daylights out of me with the extreme notions that *any* and all psych. meds are horrendous and people got thrown off the forum for taking a vitamin (not kidding).
Val
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 5, 2007, at 10:25:09
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 7:53:26
What is, then, in peoples' opinion, the reason why the UK is so particulary 'benzophobic'? I always assumed (wrongly?) that it was down to Prof Aston's work. To be fair, I thought that she was some sort of academic anomaly, but perhaps I can see what Quintal is saying. But then, I'm curious, what caused the benzophobia?
Posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 10:26:03
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by valene on February 5, 2007, at 10:14:55
>
>
> > As for benzo.uk.org, the individuals on their forums could very well be scientologists among other things as their behaviour and general attitude is rabid and scary.
>
> I once read the site and even joined the forum a few years ago. Benzo.uk is owned by a guy who was "addicted to valium", said it ruined his life, and successfully sued his doctor and then set up the site.
>
> When you join the forum, you must agree and I quote "benzodiazepines were created in the depths of hell by the very devil himself, and distributed freely here on earth by his demons". Hope that answers some questions about the origins of benzo.uk or whatever. I refuse to ever go back there, as it scared the daylights out of me with the extreme notions that *any* and all psych. meds are horrendous and people got thrown off the forum for taking a vitamin (not kidding).
>
> Val
>
I was at that group some years ago. The person you are referring to is Ray Nimmo [?]. When I joined (I think it was 2001 or 2002) there was no such pledging to the belief that demonic forces of evil are responsible for benzos, as a condition of joining the group. Things must have changed considerably. Are you sure you are not referring to somebody who had suffered withdrawals and posted that as a hyperbole?Also, I don't want to mention names, but I know some professionals who also believe that benzos can be addictive and are not necessarily needed for long-term treatment, as anxiety can be transient or circumstantial. In some cases, they are due to medical conditions and in most, i would say it is a side-effects of antidepressants. This last one does require long-term adjunct treatment.
Squiggles
Posted by valene on February 5, 2007, at 10:36:35
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 10:26:03
Yes, when I joined the opening statement before you join is "you must believe........created in the depths of hell, etc." Not lying. I cannot say for certain that the owner made this statement but had to be endorsed by him.OTOH, I have been taking a benzo for 25 years and I do respect Heather Ashton, but she is not the final authority on benzodiazepines. I have seen a doctor with very high credentials, won't go into all of it but he was the chairman of the task force on Benzodiazepines, a study coducted by the APA several years ago and he recommends that I stay on the small dose of benzo I am currently on. He has written many many articles and textbooks and no he is not the final authority either. So, none of us can judge what an individual on this forum "needs" that would be ridiculous. We can say "in general the benzos should not be prescribed for life" or the "SSRI may be needed for life" but not in specific cases and there are many people on this forum who are not the run of the mill. That's all I am saying.
> I was at that group some years ago. The person you are referring to is Ray Nimmo [?]. When I joined (I think it was 2001 or 2002) there was no such pledging to the belief that demonic forces of evil are responsible for benzos, as a condition of joining the group. Things must have changed considerably. Are you sure you are not referring to somebody who had suffered withdrawals and posted that as a hyperbole?
>
> Also, I don't want to mention names, but I know some professionals who also believe that benzos can be addictive and are not necessarily needed for long-term treatment, as anxiety can be transient or circumstantial. In some cases, they are due to medical conditions and in most, i would say it is a side-effects of antidepressants. This last one does require long-term adjunct treatment.
>
> Squiggles
>
Posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 10:39:48
In reply to Just a question, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 5, 2007, at 10:25:09
> What is, then, in peoples' opinion, the reason why the UK is so particulary 'benzophobic'? I always assumed (wrongly?) that it was down to Prof Aston's work. To be fair, I thought that she was some sort of academic anomaly, but perhaps I can see what Quintal is saying. But then, I'm curious, what caused the benzophobia?
I've read some of Charles Medawar's works on the
topic and it seems to be that some drugs go through fashions in medical trends. I think there is such a thing as a vogue when you have a fluid development in medical treatment. There are some drugs that are not available in some countries, even though they are better. Hopefully, there is also a trend towards greater integrity and knowledge. I think that there is safety in numbers in this area.Squiggles
Posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 12:02:41
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 10:26:03
> I was at that group some years ago. The person you are referring to is Ray Nimmo [?].
Ray owns the domain benzo.uk.org & won a landmark case against his doctors for giving him benzos. This makes the site biased toward one persons viewpoint.
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 12:13:04
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » Quintal, posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 1:04:39
>Well he's entitled to his opinion too.
Of course he is, but dbc claimed he said nothing negative of Heather Ashton. That isn't true - that was my point.
>Benzo tapers should be something done as a collaborative effort between a rational psychopharmacologist and his or her patient. But that doesn't mean that it takes 2 years to get off of a few milligrams of Valium nor does it say you should drop benzodiazepines like a lead brick.
The point Jay is that very few people (hardly any in fact) have access to a psychopharmacologist in the UK. Many struggle just to get a bi-annual appointment with an frazzled, over-worked pdoc with limited resources and experience. That is the deficit that Heather Ashton tried to address in her work running benzo withdrawal clinics from 1982-1994. As I've said, when she was forced to retire by law at age 65, she wrote the Ashton Manual and provided it free on the internet so that she could continue to help people who have no access to decent support services withdraw safely and comfortably from benzodiazepines. She has no sinister motives as far as I can tell, other than those which people like to attribute to her.
>That's what I mean by trolling -- the deliberate posting of inflammatory and odd arguments to generate large amounts of waste of time posts.
Some people may find that topic interesting and stimulating. If you feel that it's a waste then don't read or post to the thread.
>Well that's fine, I didn't argue about that. The UK has always been behind with benzodiazepine dispensing.
That could be construed as a jibe against the UK being a backward country Jay. I could suggest on the contrary that the drug laws here are more progressive than those in the US; afterall benzos were once extremely popular here too. Here are a few quotes from Richard Davenport-Hines' book "The Pursuit of Oblivion: a global history of narcotics" that I think sum up the history of medical prescription of drugs of abuse in the UK quite well:
__________________________________________________"The National Health service set up in 1948 was funded by tax contributions, and physicians found it hard to refuse patients who felt that as tax-payers they were entitled to NHS drugs by right. General practitioners were paid according to the number of patients in their NHS practices. This made it hard, as a Newcastle physician regretted in 1962, to restrict prescriptions for substances like amphetamines. After requesting transfer to a doctor's list, the patient often produced a tablet and asked for a further supply. The doctor seldom refused for fear of losing a year's payment not only for the patient but also in all probability for her family. Patients only had to change doctors to get all the barbiturates and amphetamines they desired."
"In Britain during 1946 32,500 kilograms of barbiturates were sold, rising to over 40,000 kilograms in 1951. Barbiturates, for the British, reported the Daily Mirror in 1955, were 'as much a part of the daily routine for thousands as cleaning their teeth'."
"After 1960, when the clinical effectiveness of chlordiazepoxide was established, barbiturates were gradually supplanted by a new group of drugs, the benzodiazepines. Chlordiazepoxide was followed by the even more successful diazepam. Twenty-five types of benzodiazepines were available within twenty years. By the early 1980s these were the most widely used of all drugs in Britain."
"According to an estimate of 1981, 10 per cent of all British males and 20 per cent of adult females took tranquillizers or hypnotics, mainly benzodiazepines, at least once a year. Of these one-half to two-thirds took tranquillizers for at least a month at a time. Two per cent of adults, say 600,000 people, were taking tranquillizers every day or night of the year. Over 4 per cent of all prescriptions were for diazepam."
__________________________________________________>I'm not sure about the against their will part, but again I'll agree to disagree.
The original benzo addicts were similar to the people today who began taking SSRIs like Paxil in the belief that they were safer and had minimal side effects and no withdrawal symptoms compared to older meds. In other words they were mislead either through ignorance on behalf of their doctors or by deliberate deceit. They felt very angry about that and Heather Ashton supported their views and defended them against the medical profession which at that time were trying to dismiss the problems surrounding withdrawal and related problems.
>The sniping came from the person who runs the site, not how decorated this professor may be.
I really don't know what that means Jay, or what you're getting at.
Q
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 12:16:36
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 12:02:41
>Ray owns the domain benzo.uk.org & won a landmark case against his doctors for giving him benzos. This makes the site biased toward one persons viewpoint.
Never in the world! I mean it's not like this site could be considered biased to any particular approach now could it?
Q
Posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 12:22:48
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » notfred, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 12:16:36
> >Ray owns the domain benzo.uk.org & won a landmark case against his doctors for giving him benzos. This makes the site biased toward one persons viewpoint.
>
> Never in the world! I mean it's not like this site could be considered biased to any particular approach now could it?
>
> Q"benzodiazepines were created in the depths of hell by the very devil himself, and distributed freely here on earth by his demons"
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 12:22:54
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 7:53:26
>The only difference between the Benzo group and the mainstream group is that doctors in the Benzo group think it's a good idea to stay away from benzos, while mainstream doctors prescribe them as needed. Ideally, imho, benzos should be administered as needed, and when needed, and if needed, AND monitored during discontinuation.
I think the main difference in Heather Ashton's view and those of most doctors, is that she thinks benzodiazepines are often over-prescribed and people are often given repeat prescriptions without proper review long after the original crisis has passed. In fact most doctors in the UK actually share her view, but they argue that long-term benzodiazepine dependence is an unfortunate clinical reality given the demands and restrictions placed on them in practice. Heather Ashton is a mainstream doctor.Q
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 12:34:14
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 12:22:48
>"benzodiazepines were created in the depths of hell by the very devil himself, and distributed freely here on earth by his demons"
I have never read a statement remotely resembling that on the benzo.org website. That kind of pseudo-religious hysteria is not something the British normally go in for. I would be more convinced if we could actually see a quote with a link to support it. We already have a statement form one lady who claims she joined the site and did not see any such statement.
Sounds like some people might be paranoid and vulnerable to making up stories and attributing sinister motives to people with conflicting beliefs around here:
"Also benzo.uk.org is an anti benzo site and if you dare to read their forums you will find out its a complete haven for anti medication, anti psychiatrist, anti basically everything to do with mental health care. They're like cultists...maybe they are scientologists, i really don't know."
I'm getting really tired by this (what seems to me) mean-spirited vendetta against people who wish to speak the truth about benzodiazepines. I realize this might make you feel uncomfortable, but that is not my intention. If you feel distressed then please leave the thread and ignore further posts.
Q
Posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 12:37:47
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » notfred, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 12:34:14
> I'm getting really tired by this (what seems to me) mean-spirited vendetta against people who wish to speak the truth about benzodiazepines. I realize this might make you feel uncomfortable, but that is not my intention. If you feel distressed then please leave the thread and ignore further posts.
>
> Q
The truth in their eyes, ignoring that many experts disagree. So that makes it their truth
and not "the" truth.
Posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 12:37:50
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 12:22:54
> >The only difference between the Benzo group and the mainstream group is that doctors in the Benzo group think it's a good idea to stay away from benzos, while mainstream doctors prescribe them as needed. Ideally, imho, benzos should be administered as needed, and when needed, and if needed, AND monitored during discontinuation.
>
>
> I think the main difference in Heather Ashton's view and those of most doctors, is that she thinks benzodiazepines are often over-prescribed and people are often given repeat prescriptions without proper review long after the original crisis has passed. In fact most doctors in the UK actually share her view, but they argue that long-term benzodiazepine dependence is an unfortunate clinical reality given the demands and restrictions placed on them in practice. Heather Ashton is a mainstream doctor.
>
> Q
>They are overprescribed, and worse, doctors and
patients are often unware of the consequences of stopping them or interrupting them or reaching tolerance. Dr. Ashton has provided professional help for people who don't know what the *** hit them. (Clonazepam is still a puzzle). I know from experience that I waisted 10 yrs. of productive life on what i call "inter-dose withdrawal", though the high thyroid hormone may have been a co-variable. It was an embarrassing and futile experience, at a time when in North America at least, benzos were not considered major drugs.I think we have a problem in our society, not only with benzos but all medications, esp. antidepressants which require closer and more careful monitoring. We just don't have enough drs. To make things worse, the drug companies have not cooperated with this problem by say, opening up clinics, but rather cloning existing classes of drugs for the sole sake of profit.
As for Ray, what can I say -- he's a born-again Christian with a medal in his pocket. :-) But you can't help but like the man.
Squiggles
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 12:43:50
In reply to Just a question, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 5, 2007, at 10:25:09
>What is, then, in peoples' opinion, the reason why the UK is so particulary 'benzophobic'? I always assumed (wrongly?) that it was down to Prof Aston's work. To be fair, I thought that she was some sort of academic anomaly, but perhaps I can see what Quintal is saying. But then, I'm curious, what caused the benzophobia?
Much anti-benzo hysteria was whipped up by Esther Rantzen on her 'That's Life!' consumer advice programme during the mid 1980's. She set up a help-line and even some sort of 'benzo meter' recording the number of people who had managed to quit them over a period of years since her campaign started. You might have seen enough of her personality to guess that she didn't give up the campaign that made her famous and won so many viewer ratings without a fight.
Q
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 13:36:29
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by valene on February 5, 2007, at 10:36:35
>Yes, when I joined the opening statement before you join is "you must believe........created in the depths of hell, etc." Not lying. I cannot say for certain that the owner made this statement but had to be endorsed by him.
I'm curious why you, as a seemingly vehement supporter of long-term benzodiazepine use, decided to join a benzo withdrawal support group?
Which support forum did you join specifically valene? It appears there are several independent of benzo.org, though the website contains links to those sites for interested parties: http://www.benzo.org.uk/support.htm
I've searched through the site just now valene and I see no religious fundamentalism there. There is the symbol of the cross and the fish of course, but I think that's a harmless symbol of the faith that helped Ray Nimmo through the hardship of withdrawal. There is no pressure to conform to any particular belief system that I can see there.
Q
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