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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on August 19, 2006, at 14:39:33
That's a good question, but one nearly impossible to answer. The easy answer would be NO, since I have taken benzos for nearly a decade with no problems nor have I read about anyone with long-term issues from them.
HOWEVER, every med affects everyone differently. Surely benzos could alter one's body chemistry. If someone took an aspirin a day, that could alter it too. If someone overloaded on vitamin C every day, that could affect things.
Tom, I probably haven't been much help, sorry. The only thing I can really say is that benzos are probably the most overrated danger in the medicinal field. For people who take them for the right reasons (and not to use recreationally), they work wonders.
Posted by Phillipa on August 19, 2006, at 15:15:37
In reply to That's a tough question to answer, posted by UgottaHaveHope on August 19, 2006, at 14:39:33
You started a new thread. But now that you're here. I'm really having trouble switching back from the 2mg of klonopin to the 20mg of valium I was on before. So for now I'm taking 5mg extra.
Did you say before you were on seroquel? Can you compare the two as I have samples of it and have been afraid to try it. Other than the one bad experience I had with it before where it made knocked out cold. I got an e-mail from someone on 25mg who compared it to a glass of wine. Love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on August 19, 2006, at 17:10:22
In reply to Re: That's a tough question to answer » UgottaHaveHope, posted by Phillipa on August 19, 2006, at 15:15:37
> You started a new thread. But now that you're here. I'm really having trouble switching back from the 2mg of klonopin to the 20mg of valium I was on before. So for now I'm taking 5mg extra.
>
> Did you say before you were on seroquel? Can you compare the two as I have samples of it and have been afraid to try it. Other than the one bad experience I had with it before where it made knocked out cold. I got an e-mail from someone on 25mg who compared it to a glass of wine. Love Phillipa
I would say that Seroquel-naive patients will experience profound drowsiness, and especially low blood pressure (eg a Trazodone feeling) if never taken before, even at a low dose. I'm used to it and can push through things -- I'm not proud to say that I once or twice stupidly accidentally doubled my Seroquel dose by mistakenly taking it in the daytime as well as at night and I held through 1600mg basically of Seroquel in my body until I could get to a place I could lay down and sleep. But if you've never taken it that amount would knock you out cold for a day and a half.
I'm sorry to hear that you're having trouble, Jan, about your switchover -- 2mg of Klonopin is roughly equal to 40mg of Valium, as I know about switching from 8mg Klonopin to 160mg Valium at one point. I think the taper there is not being made equal -- you have to add more Valium before you take away the Klonopin, I've been there and I can say that it is not a surprise that you're taking 5mg extra. I know this because I was taking .5mg Klonopin tablets and 10mg Valium tablets, equivalent basically.-- Best wishes
Jay
Posted by Phillipa on August 19, 2006, at 20:13:14
In reply to Re: That's a tough question to answer, posted by yxibow on August 19, 2006, at 17:10:22
Jay I love you. So I'm not crazy? Thankfully I have extra valium from the two weeks of klonopin big mistake for me. Love Phillipa
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on August 19, 2006, at 23:15:47
In reply to Re: That's a tough question to answer » UgottaHaveHope, posted by Phillipa on August 19, 2006, at 15:15:37
Jan, give it a try. You will know first day whether or not it works. If it doesnt, then dont take it again and it will be out of your system quickly.
Posted by Phillipa on August 19, 2006, at 23:18:15
In reply to Re: Try 12.5 of Seroquel, posted by UgottaHaveHope on August 19, 2006, at 23:15:47
I have is it okay with the valium? Love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on August 20, 2006, at 2:57:43
In reply to Re: Try 12.5 of Seroquel » UgottaHaveHope, posted by Phillipa on August 19, 2006, at 23:18:15
> I have is it okay with the valium? Love Phillipa
It is -- I take 800 Seroquel with a decreasing taper on the amount of Valium very slowly -- far more than you take, so yes, 12.5mg is infinitessimal with your Valium dose, it has no antipsychotic properties at that level -- it is simply an off use very heavy antihistamine. Nonetheless, I'm not your doctor, so check in too (disclaimer.)
-- Tidings
Jay
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on August 20, 2006, at 10:06:11
In reply to Re: Try 12.5 of Seroquel » Phillipa, posted by yxibow on August 20, 2006, at 2:57:43
Please consider giving Seroquel a try. You've asked me this before about mixing it with benzo, and I take it with Klonopin with no problem.
Again, the good thing about Seroquel is that unlike an SSRI you will know the first night whether or not it is going to help you. Good luck.
Posted by llrrrpp on August 20, 2006, at 17:21:41
In reply to Re: Phillipa, just one night, posted by UgottaHaveHope on August 20, 2006, at 10:06:11
Hi All,
The seroquel has been very helpful for my anxiety, particularly these middle of the night anxiety attacks I was having.My pdoc told me to start off with 25, then try up to 100mg if I cannot fall asleep, or if I wake too early. He has told me over and over again what a tiny dose 25 mg is, every time I was concerned about low blood sugar, or dizzyness, or any other potential side-effect.
Lately, I have been cutting my 25 mg tablets in 2. I fall asleep within about 20-30 minutes of taking a dose, and I sleep soundly through the night (well, last night my cat needed some loving in the wee hours, but I fell back asleep promptly).
I thought that the seroquel was just for helping me sleep, but I have noticed that my anxiety in general is much better when I have taken it the night before. It seems to cut down on the little voice inside my head that says "what if [something bad] happens, why are you doing that, I'm scared, I'm really scared...etc".
But it is quite sedating, so figure out what dose works best for you. Zonk!
-ll
Posted by Phillipa on August 20, 2006, at 19:31:01
In reply to Re: Phillipa, just one night » UgottaHaveHope, posted by llrrrpp on August 20, 2006, at 17:21:41
To Michael and lurpsie. Michael I've taken l2.5mg with valium only twice I think. But for you I'll try again okay . And also e-mail you you're so caring and sweet to me. And Lupsie it really helped that scared feeling. Would it help cut down on the valium or the luvox which I should start now? I know a lot of questions. Love Phillipa Jay I'm not forgetting you either
Posted by Phillipa on August 20, 2006, at 19:34:31
In reply to Re: Try 12.5 of Seroquel » Phillipa, posted by yxibow on August 20, 2006, at 2:57:43
Jay I don't get it how can an atypical antipsychotic have no antipsychotic properties at the low dose. Love Phillipa
Posted by llrrrpp on August 20, 2006, at 21:51:34
In reply to Re: Phillipa, just one night, posted by Phillipa on August 20, 2006, at 19:31:01
Philippa,
you can do it- you'll do great. 12.5 mg of seroquel.
-lurpsie
Posted by UgottaHaveHOPE on August 21, 2006, at 1:12:38
In reply to Re: Phillipa, just one night » UgottaHaveHope, posted by llrrrpp on August 20, 2006, at 17:21:41
Hey llrrrpp, it sounds like you and i have some things in common: Seroquel has been the only med out of 30+ to touch my anxiety. It makes me sleep, and then makes me groggy throughout the day, therefore taking away the anxiety.
Tell me more about you.
Posted by llrrrpp on August 21, 2006, at 7:51:41
In reply to Re: Hey llrrrpp!!!, posted by UgottaHaveHOPE on August 21, 2006, at 1:12:38
> Hey llrrrpp, it sounds like you and i have some things in common: Seroquel has been the only med out of 30+ to touch my anxiety. It makes me sleep, and then makes me groggy throughout the day, therefore taking away the anxiety.
>
> Tell me more about you.Uh Oh- you just awakened the inner beast that likes to talk about herself!!
February 2006- major depression, my 2nd episode. The first time I've ever sought treatment for mental health issues. Insomnia, anxiety, appetite loss, anhedonia, weeping, apathy, memory loss, attention problems, suicidal thoughts, the whole thing.
Have been seeing T since April, and pdoc since then too. I was pretty close to being hospitalized for a few weeks in May? I don't remember.
I also have performance anxiety, which I've had my whole life (when performing violin and public speaking, I use 10 mg propanolol. Works wonders).
Depression is responding well to 90 mg cymbalta and 25 mg of seroquel in pm, and I also take 200 mg provigil so that I don't sleep my day away. It does make me a little antsy though, and some days when I have a lot of stress I end up running around like a headless chicken. I'm doing much better anxiety-wise. I was anxious to leave the house, or to drive a car, or ride my bike, but lately those things have not been much of a problem. (I even went to Germany and drove on the Autobahn, and what's more impressive, in the old-city downtown parts with crazy intersections, and bike paths, and pedestrians everywhere. No major meltdowns in a while.
I'm doing a lot better, mental health-wise. Now I'm trying to get my life straightened out. I need to finish up my dissertation, get a job and find a way for my husband (who's in the military) and me to live in the same place.
yours,
-ll
Posted by yxibow on August 21, 2006, at 14:49:49
In reply to Re: Try 12.5 of Seroquel » yxibow, posted by Phillipa on August 20, 2006, at 19:34:31
> Jay I don't get it how can an atypical antipsychotic have no antipsychotic properties at the low dose. Love Phillipa
Seroquel doesn't really begin to have any clinically significant transmitter properties until around 200-400mg. It is an atypical, the least powerful of all at D2, and has a half life of only 6 hours. Nonetheless studies have shown that for antipsychotic (or other purposes) use it can be dosed once a day.
The range of dosing goes from 12.5mg all the way to 800 (and beyond as discovered more) so you can see that 12.5mg is way beyond a full dose of 800mg.
I didn't say that there could be an infinitessimal good feeling out of it. The 5HT2A blockade (serotonin) may still be in effect at 12.5mg, which may explain antipsychotic-naive patients' response of a "good feeling." I doubt there is any clinically significant D2 at all for most patients.
On the other hand, the (unfortunate, for me) effect of Seroquel which is mainly used off label in this case, for sleeplessness is mostly at its H2, which is massive. In fact, it is probably the most sleep inducing antipsychotic (including typicals like Haldol) of all.
I wish I could take Zyprexa for my off use purposes but I'm leery of going back that direction because of the pseudoparkinsonism and how permanent or not that may be (otherwise its not so sleep inducing but it is much more lipid/fat inducing and I would be on the treadmill all day.)
There are others of course, like Geodon (another one with a wide dose range), but my reaction to them has generally been my sensitivity to all of them, namely akathisia (crawling out of your skin anxiety like feeling like you want to walk through a wall.)
Hopefully 2007 and beyond will bring new options to the market, such as the retry of the iloperidone trial (relicensed) and other novel compounds, but ultimately for me anyhow for better or worse psychologic treatment is just as necessary as another tablet.
-- tidingsJay
Posted by yxibow on August 21, 2006, at 14:53:02
In reply to Re: Hey llrrrpp!!!, posted by UgottaHaveHOPE on August 21, 2006, at 1:12:38
> Hey llrrrpp, it sounds like you and i have some things in common: Seroquel has been the only med out of 30+ to touch my anxiety. It makes me sleep, and then makes me groggy throughout the day, therefore taking away the anxiety.
>
> Tell me more about you.
Aha, there's the clue -- there are patients who respond at least to part of their treatment exclusively because a component of their medication(s) happens to be sleep inducing, which is interpreted and felt as anxiety relief. Its a lot in common with most of the medications I take. Just a thought-- tidings
Jay
Posted by UgottaHaveHOPE on August 21, 2006, at 21:44:24
In reply to Re: Hey llrrrpp!!! » UgottaHaveHOPE, posted by yxibow on August 21, 2006, at 14:53:02
No doubt about it. The Seroquel is like being shot by an elephant dart and makes me groggy throughout the day, therefore "masking" the anxiety. That's the good news. The bad news is that I constantly feel tired, but hey there are tradeoffs with everything. At this point, it is worth it to me.
Posted by UgottaHaveHOPE on August 21, 2006, at 21:49:16
In reply to Re: Hey llrrrpp!!! » UgottaHaveHOPE, posted by llrrrpp on August 21, 2006, at 7:51:41
Yes, it does sound like we have a lot in common. My primary diagnosis is GAD, although we all know that anxiety and depression are like flip sides of a coin.
What is Cymbalta? How does it make you feel? That's interesting, too, about the Provigil. What does that do for you?
Do you have AIM? My screen name is SPORTSCARvell
Posted by llrrrpp on August 21, 2006, at 22:27:36
In reply to Re: Hey llrrrpp!!! Hey llrrrpp!!! Hey llrrrpp!!!, posted by UgottaHaveHOPE on August 21, 2006, at 21:49:16
> Yes, it does sound like we have a lot in common. My primary diagnosis is GAD, although we all know that anxiety and depression are like flip sides of a coin.
I'm not sure that my pdoc or T has ever given my a formal diagnosis of anxiety disorder. They have told me that I have anxiety, however. I always try to deny it, haha, blaming it on the terrifying situation of having to see T, who has the power to put me in the hospital and call me crazy...
>
> What is Cymbalta? How does it make you feel? That's interesting, too, about the Provigil. What does that do for you?Cymbalta is an AD, it's a selective reuptake inhibitor for norepinephrine and serotonin (SNRI)
It's good for the depression, but the norepinephrine effects cause some "anxiety-like" symptoms, especially in the first week after a dose increase. Things like sweating, and increased heart rate and muscle tension and stuff like that. Lately, been feeling quite good. My pdoc said it would help with anxiety. I think he's right, but it took a while (like 2 months and 90 mg dose).
provigil is a stimulant. I told pdoc that the 90mg dose of cymbalta was causing me quite a bit of drowsiness, despite me taking it before bed. I was sleeping 12-14 hours a day, including 3-5 short naps during the day. provigil helps me stay awake, and removes the temptation to overdose on caffeine, which, as you can imagine was not helping my anxiety very much.
The last 2 days I have not taken provigil, and I have been seriously sleepy. I took about 4 naps today, and everytime I sat down, I felt like collapsing! zonk. This is not so good for me, because I get nervous when I can't get my work done, and I get grumpy, and don't want to be around people. Every once in a while, I have experienced mild euphoria, from the provigil, but there have also been days where I have been running around like a busy bee and been pretty agitated too...
next time I go on IM, I'll add you to my list.
:o) Chat is also something I'm trying not to do too much of. not good for my work...!
-ll
> Do you have AIM? My screen name is SPORTSCARvell
Posted by llrrrpp on August 22, 2006, at 8:09:34
In reply to Re: Hey llrrrpp!!! Hey llrrrpp!!! Hey llrrrpp!!! » UgottaHaveHOPE, posted by llrrrpp on August 21, 2006, at 22:27:36
Oh, sorry Ugotta,
I only have MSN IM and Yahoo messenger. I wasn't paying attention. oh well...-ll
This is the end of the thread.
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