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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by jedi on June 22, 2006, at 0:58:42
In reply to Re: SSRIs, posted by flmm on June 21, 2006, at 21:48:07
> For people so anti-drugs, you guys sure know a lot about them! SSRI meds help me, my wife, and 2 of my 3 sisters, to name a few. Sure they are not perfect. But not too long ago we would all have been in the wacko-house! They help me personally function enough to get to work and live a productive life. Same with many of my friends and family! I am gratefull they exist, cause i would be done! Anxiety and depression are very serious and the drugs that treat them are some of the best medicine has to offer. The successes of these drugs will not be heard from on this board! This board is for something else, I am still trying to figure out what that is............
Hi flmm,
I've mentioned several times that this board atracts people who are at a minimum, treatment resistant. I've been on 35+ different combinations of medications, including most of the SSRIs. The only meds that have worked long term for my atypical depression & social anxiety have been a combination of Nardil & clonazepam. I believe that a great many people are probably helped by the SSRIs, but they are not represented here in any great number. Most of these people will take a SSRI short term to get over a situational depression, then get on with their lives. Most of the people on the med board here have been fighting depression and other psychiatric disorders for years. That probably makes us a little better informed than the usual patient, but can also lead to some prejudices that naturally follow multiple failures with different meds.
Take care,
Jedi
Posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 1:13:47
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » flmm, posted by jedi on June 22, 2006, at 0:58:42
> Hi flmm,
> I've mentioned several times that this board atracts people who are at a minimum, treatment resistant.'So everyone here is a f*cked up f*ck up?
SSRI'S suck plain@simple-i should know, i'v taken 3-4 of the f*cking things. in 100 years my grandchilds kids will be talking bout them, in the way we speak of 1906-'treatments', Mrs winslows cough syrup-containing 65mgs Morphine per dose, or Mr smiths 'pep' tonic' Cocaine bound.Cheers
Posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2006, at 1:31:32
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 1:13:47
Posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 1:46:33
In reply to Having a bad night? (nm) » Paulbwell, posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2006, at 1:31:32
NO-not inordinately, nothing that 60mgs valium+a few drinks, or better still, 100mgs Nembutal would put a stop to-alas i'm not a Vet-Doc so no luck there:)
What i posted stands, SSRI's suck for me, and many others, they are brain anathetics, and not in a good way like the MSIR-20mg tabs i found relief in-at least they anathetised me@i didn't feel any noticable SE's unlike the SE ridden SSRI's.
have a good day:)
Cheers
Posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2006, at 2:27:14
In reply to Re: Having a bad night? » gardenergirl, posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 1:46:33
Sorry, I was not questioning what you posted, just commenting on the intensity. That's all.
gg
Posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 2:33:34
In reply to Re: Having a bad night? » Paulbwell, posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2006, at 2:27:14
> Sorry, I was not questioning what you posted, just commenting on the intensity. That's all.
>
> ggCoolness girl, we are all in this together?. Any info welcommed
Cheers
Posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2006, at 3:41:47
In reply to Re: Having a bad night? » gardenergirl, posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 2:33:34
Posted by Donna Louise on June 22, 2006, at 5:17:33
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » flmm, posted by jedi on June 22, 2006, at 0:58:42
> > For people so anti-drugs, you guys sure know a lot about them! SSRI meds help me, my wife, and 2 of my 3 sisters, to name a few. Sure they are not perfect. But not too long ago we would all have been in the wacko-house! They help me personally function enough to get to work and live a productive life. Same with many of my friends and family! I am gratefull they exist, cause i would be done! Anxiety and depression are very serious and the drugs that treat them are some of the best medicine has to offer. The successes of these drugs will not be heard from on this board! This board is for something else, I am still trying to figure out what that is............
>
> Hi flmm,
> I've mentioned several times that this board atracts people who are at a minimum, treatment resistant. I've been on 35+ different combinations of medications, including most of the SSRIs. The only meds that have worked long term for my atypical depression & social anxiety have been a combination of Nardil & clonazepam. I believe that a great many people are probably helped by the SSRIs, but they are not represented here in any great number. Most of these people will take a SSRI short term to get over a situational depression, then get on with their lives. Most of the people on the med board here have been fighting depression and other psychiatric disorders for years. That probably makes us a little better informed than the usual patient, but can also lead to some prejudices that naturally follow multiple failures with different meds.
> Take care,
> Jedi
Thanks for explaining my position so well. This board helps me feel not alone, which is so important to me. If that is the only purpose it serves, well, that sometimes is more helpful to me than alot of the meds.donna
Posted by Donna Louise on June 22, 2006, at 5:21:28
In reply to Re: Having a bad night? » gardenergirl, posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 1:46:33
> NO-not inordinately, nothing that 60mgs valium+a few drinks, or better still, 100mgs Nembutal would put a stop to-alas i'm not a Vet-Doc so no luck there:)
>
> What i posted stands, SSRI's suck for me, and many others, they are brain anathetics, and not in a good way like the MSIR-20mg tabs i found relief in-at least they anathetised me@i didn't feel any noticable SE's unlike the SE ridden SSRI's.
>
> have a good day:)
>
> CheersHey Paul, just curious, what are MSIR tabs? Do you live in outside the states? I know valium, nembutal and alcohol quite well, but have not heard of this other thing. Maybe I know it by a different name. From my wild and crazy past. Not to say I am not crazy in the present, just not wild :-)))
donna
Posted by Declan on June 22, 2006, at 11:56:02
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 1:13:47
In a hundred years people will still be seeking Mrs Winslow's and Collis Brown. Right now I'm not seeking SSRIs and I doubt people will want them in a hundred years. The others will be around though.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on June 22, 2006, at 17:55:48
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » Paulbwell, posted by Declan on June 22, 2006, at 11:56:02
Another consideration is that not everbody who "responds" to an SSRI, is actually responding to the medication.
Like I was saying before, a lot of people get better "in spite of" SSRI's.
Depression does get better on its own. In addition, treatment (of any form) often does vastly superior to no treatment.
People always like to make associations, it makes them feel in control.
Even people who get better from depression without drugs, often associate their recovery with something (ie, God got me though), since it gives them a sence that they can prevent such things from happening again. That wasn't true for me, some of my worst points occured while on medications.
If somebody would like to believe that the SSRI was actually what caused recovery then all the power to them, but it may not be true.
Also, in terms of us all being institutionalized if we didn't have these medications, I'm not so sure what the statistics are. For instance, suicides "have not" taken any substatial decline since the advent of chemical antidepressants (contrary to popular belief). In addition you've got an increase in the number of "drug induced manic episodes", so I don't know if the meds pan out to paint a rosey picture at all.
Linkadge
Posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 19:56:55
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by linkadge on June 22, 2006, at 17:55:48
Clearly this is the board for chronic complainers. No drug will ever be enough so just stop already. Neurosis is overanylizing and oversensitivity of ones self. Of course these drugs can make people a little Zombie" like. This is a necessary "side effect" to stop self obsessing so much! For gods sake, do not expect the drugs to do all the work! They can only help. Do some positive things for others, you might just find out you stopped worrying about yourself for a moment. Thereby helping yourself!
Posted by Squiggles on June 22, 2006, at 19:59:54
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 19:56:55
> Clearly this is the board for chronic complainers. No drug will ever be enough so just stop already. Neurosis is overanylizing and oversensitivity of ones self. Of course these drugs can make people a little Zombie" like. This is a necessary "side effect" to stop self obsessing so much! For gods sake, do not expect the drugs to do all the work! They can only help. Do some positive things for others, you might just find out you stopped worrying about yourself for a moment. Thereby helping yourself!
Nah, more soup please sir? :-)
Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on June 22, 2006, at 20:51:55
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 19:56:55
Thats the kind of opinion that a lot of treatment resistant people must face. "Oh, just stop complaining will ya?"
I think people are full well able to tell if a treatment works or not.
Sure it is easy, if a SSRI works for you, to think that it should work for everbody else but that is not true.
There are quite possably many different biochemcal issues that can present as the same cluster of symptoms. It is easy to take a working mind for granted.
I have seen SSRI apathy ruin good peoples lives. I know people (who when non depressed) had lives, and energy, and motivation, all to have that completely wiped out by the "treatment" of SSRI's. We're not talking about feeling a little dull. SSRI's apathy can transform a neurotic depression into one where a patient sleeps all day, and is pretty much indifferent about everything.
This is not just some backstage complaint, SSRI apathy, and amotivational syndrome are real. It is basically transforming one disabling illness into a different, but equally debilitating one.
Some people seem much more sensitive to this problem than others.Proper treatment for depression, is not just about getting the patient to stop complaining.
This thread, is not about getting high, nor is it about using opiates to escape, or feel good, it is about trying to sift through the accounts and evidences, to determine if fixed doses of opiates can help certain patients get better. There seem to be an increasing number of cases which suggest that it is possable in certain patients.
I understand how some people may think that this is impossable, but I would tell certain patients to not let this discourage them.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on June 22, 2006, at 21:02:54
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » flmm, posted by linkadge on June 22, 2006, at 20:51:55
You've hit the nail on the head linkadge.
Of course people are content, perhaps even
grateful not to be in a state where they
may harm themselves or others. But the side
effects so often destroy the quality of life,
volition, ambition, appetite, ability to feel
emotions and yet remain balanced.We need better drugs and if we stop complaining
about that, those who are not victims of
mental illness, will be quite satisfied to
continue prescribing without trying to
improve psychopharmacology.Psychopharmacology is very important -
the drugs stop depression after all and
schizophrenia. The rest is fluffery.
Though, of course compassion and care
in a social context is necessary for any
human being in a state of suffering.Squiggles
Posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 21:55:41
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on June 22, 2006, at 21:02:54
Hey, easy boys, I did not say your complaints are not valid. Just that drugs are only part of the solution. The other parts are never talked about or just brushed by here. You will never, ever find a perfect drug. NEVER. So clearly you should take the ones that help the most, dump the others, find out what else is wrong in your life. I'm sure you probably will not want to face some of those issues, probably just easier to take drugs.................
Posted by Emme on June 22, 2006, at 22:05:07
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 21:55:41
> The other parts are never talked about or just brushed by here.
1) That's because this is a meds board. There is a psychology board.
2) Please do not assume that because they are not discussed on this board that people are not simultaneously pursuing other forms of therapy.
> I'm sure you probably will not want to face some of those issues, probably just easier to take drugs.................
1) Please don't make assumptions about what other people will or will not face.
2) I may get slammed for this, but I personally believe that there are some people (not all) who do not have issues and for whom their illness is purely biological. Or for whom life issues are the result of their illness.
Posted by Tomatheus on June 22, 2006, at 22:50:18
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » flmm, posted by linkadge on June 22, 2006, at 20:51:55
Posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 22:53:12
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 21:55:41
"Hey Paul, just curious, what are MSIR tabs? Do you live in outside the states? I know valium, nembutal and alcohol quite well, but have not heard of this other thing. Maybe I know it by a different name. From my wild and crazy past. Not to say I am not crazy in the present, just not wild :-)))
donna"
MSIR=Morphine Sulphate immediate release. I live downunder,and believe that you US folk have it in 15@30mg doses. Wild and crazy past? was nembutal effective? have you been treated with Quaalude? stimulants?
Cheers
Posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 5:36:27
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 22:53:12
ok, this is the third post. I think I know what happened. I had the no message thing on somehow.
I self-dedicated, I mean medicated with all the drugs you mentioned and more. I do not know why I am not dead from an OD or car wreck. You could say they were effective in that otherwise I would have spent my life locked in the bathroom but I am sure they really screwed up my already precariously wired brain systems all the more. I was really smart once.
I did what we called blue morphine. All this was a long time ago, when I was a teenager and in my 20's. I am now 52. Somehow I am 52..donna
Posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 5:41:39
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » flmm, posted by Emme on June 22, 2006, at 22:05:07
> > The other parts are never talked about or just brushed by here.
>
> 1) That's because this is a meds board. There is a psychology board.
>
> 2) Please do not assume that because they are not discussed on this board that people are not simultaneously pursuing other forms of therapy.
>
> > I'm sure you probably will not want to face some of those issues, probably just easier to take drugs.................
>
> 1) Please don't make assumptions about what other people will or will not face.
>
> 2) I may get slammed for this, but I personally believe that there are some people (not all) who do not have issues and for whom their illness is purely biological. Or for whom life issues are the result of their illness.
Thanks so much Emme for replying so civily to this remark regarding not wanting to face issues.
I don't know if I would have checked myself. I personally can't even count the years I have spent working hard on the areas that don't work due to "issues". I could not have done a second of it without antidepressants. When I first started therapy a million years ago we couldn't do any work because I could do nothing but sit there and cry.donna
Posted by Declan on June 23, 2006, at 14:09:03
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » Paulbwell, posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 5:36:27
It was nice to read that. Before the dangerous stuff started I asked my brother how long he thought I'd last and he astonished me by saying that he had bad news and that I'd make it to 27 (he knew how to cheer me up). And then things got much much worse, and then better, and here I am alive at 53. Locked in the bathroom, hey? Know all about it (I think).
Declan
Posted by pulse on June 23, 2006, at 14:15:26
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 19:56:55
1) not a thing wrong with complaining. people would do better to do more of it. this goes hand in hand with the very cruelest cut of all: that pull-self-up-by-bootstraps 'philosphy' which emerges from alcoholic or other dysfunctional families of origin. decades ago, claudia black coined: don' TALK, don't TRUST, don't FEEL. fyi: DON'T can be shouted or beaten in, or it can be subtly & confusingly instilled in any child, as it was in my case.
2) i admit to being an over-analyzer, even though i ALWAYS score in the 98-99 percentile of all right-brain tests. analyzing is decidedly left-brained. i use an intuitive method, combined with both much book knowledge, and (my naivete replaced, i now believe for my best) with learned-the-hard-way street smarts. i don't stop with looking only at myself, either. so much for the self-absorbtion with which you are battering us.
i help those who are capable of internalizing it, and then capable of doing their own work.
i'm not a big fan of 'facts' & science, because, exclusive of my not having a bent for science, one can clearly see from this board, that science doesn't come close to solving all.
3) there is NO such thing as being over-sensitive. PERIOD. that myth comes from the same 'place' as the above.
re: a following post of yours -
i'm sure you'd be amazed at how many here on the meds board, DO also go to therapy, often once a week, if they can afford. that's still recommended for the best possible results, for those with major depressive disorder, more than any other dx. that can be simple talk therapy, or cbt for the anxiety and ocd that so very often come with this dx.
it was indeed thought, until fairly recently, that folks with bipolar disorder didn't need therapy; that it could, instead, be harmful to them. that trend seems to be changing.
why all this pot-stirring from you? i can see no other real reason for you repetitive, and unable to entertain anything close to some semblance of a belief that people can and do have FAR different outcomes than you and your's, posts. please, dispense with this yanking of peoples' chains.
pulse
Posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 14:28:21
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » Donna Louise, posted by Declan on June 23, 2006, at 14:09:03
> It was nice to read that. Before the dangerous stuff started I asked my brother how long he thought I'd last and he astonished me by saying that he had bad news and that I'd make it to 27 (he knew how to cheer me up). And then things got much much worse, and then better, and here I am alive at 53. Locked in the bathroom, hey? Know all about it (I think).
> Declan
Hey, I bet if we had lived in the same country, we may have bumped into each other, if not in crazy drug land, but maybe the bathroom...donna
Posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 14:35:49
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » flmm, posted by pulse on June 23, 2006, at 14:15:26
> 1) not a thing wrong with complaining. people would do better to do more of it. this goes hand in hand with the very cruelest cut of all: that pull-self-up-by-bootstraps 'philosphy' which emerges from alcoholic or other dysfunctional families of origin. decades ago, claudia black coined: don' TALK, don't TRUST, don't FEEL. fyi: DON'T can be shouted or beaten in, or it can be subtly & confusingly instilled in any child, as it was in my case.
>
> 2) i admit to being an over-analyzer, even though i ALWAYS score in the 98-99 percentile of all right-brain tests. analyzing is decidedly left-brained. i use an intuitive method, combined with both much book knowledge, and (my naivete replaced, i now believe for my best) with learned-the-hard-way street smarts. i don't stop with looking only at myself, either. so much for the self-absorbtion with which you are battering us.
>
> i help those who are capable of internalizing it, and then capable of doing their own work.
>
> i'm not a big fan of 'facts' & science, because, exclusive of my not having a bent for science, one can clearly see from this board, that science doesn't come close to solving all.
>
> 3) there is NO such thing as being over-sensitive. PERIOD. that myth comes from the same 'place' as the above.
>
> re: a following post of yours -
>
> i'm sure you'd be amazed at how many here on the meds board, DO also go to therapy, often once a week, if they can afford. that's still recommended for the best possible results, for those with major depressive disorder, more than any other dx. that can be simple talk therapy, or cbt for the anxiety and ocd that so very often come with this dx.
>
> it was indeed thought, until fairly recently, that folks with bipolar disorder didn't need therapy; that it could, instead, be harmful to them. that trend seems to be changing.
>
> why all this pot-stirring from you? i can see no other real reason for you repetitive, and unable to entertain anything close to some semblance of a belief that people can and do have FAR different outcomes than you and your's, posts. please, dispense with this yanking of peoples' chains.
>
> pulse
Thanks pulse, I appreciate your statements. It sounds like I could have bumped into you out there too.. I bet there are alot us with the same experiences. And that have done alot of "family of origin" work. Absolutely necessary for this ACOA, the meds by themselves would definately not be enough. But I have had to have them to do the work. For me, it has been both, therapy and meds, that have me as marginally functional as I am :-)donna
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