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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2005, at 1:06:45
If sleep deprivation produces such a robust responce in depression for some individuals we should be able to create some implantable device that jolts the brain at a certain time of the night to mimic the effects of sleep deprivation.
Linkadge
Posted by barosky on August 1, 2005, at 2:26:57
In reply to why can't we mimic sleep deprivation, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2005, at 1:06:45
I never knew sleep deprivation was proven to do that, sleep deprivation for me results in more clear, lucid thought, I can write much more creatively when sleep deprived, that's why I take advantage of it. I just thought it was me or something,
That is a good questions though but wouldn't it be somewhat dangerous, I mean you wouldn't know how long this could go on for I dunno.. it'd probably be possible, just how mucy relief would you get though and for how long and would it even be worth it
Posted by med_empowered on August 1, 2005, at 2:57:32
In reply to Re: why can't we mimic sleep deprivation, posted by barosky on August 1, 2005, at 2:26:57
hey! I've always found sleep deprivation to lift my mood--but, since I have occasional (hypo)manic and "mixed" episodes, it can be a mixed bag. That said...it works SO WELL. A day, even two without sleep makes me more productive, happier, more talkative, so on and so forth. I've read a couple studies where they use sleep deprivation very carefully in conjunction with antidepressants to get a more robust repsonse...still, having both taken antidepressants AND experienced the ups and downs of lack of sleep, I kind of think most of the "reponse" in those studies was to the sleep deprivation, not the medication. As for finding a way to mimic sleep deprivation..its a great idea, but its so *complex*--sleep affects everything, from metabolism to neurotransmitter activity...I cant imagine what kind of pharmaceutical (or cocktail of pharmaceuticals) could mimic going without sleep and do it in such a way that taking the med(s) would be safer and cost-effective as compared to standard sleep-deprivation. Still..it'd be a nice avenue of research, and any resulting products would certainly beat taking sedating, dulling meds that currently dominate the marketplace.
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2005, at 4:09:36
In reply to Re: why can't we mimic sleep deprivation, posted by med_empowered on August 1, 2005, at 2:57:32
Yeah, in responce to barosky. It has been known for many years now, that one night of sleep deprivation produces an almost immediate AD effect in 60-70% of people suffering from depression. You can do a google search on sleep deprivation + depression for more detailded info.
Sleep deprivation for me is basically a complete day of feeling normal, without any side effects of medications. Infact, even on my best combinations, I have not been able to mimic the feeling of normalicy I experience on a SD day.It used to be used a LOT before the 70's. A lot of doctors are researching it again. It affects the metabolism of serotonin and dopamine. It decreases overactive limbic metabolism. It has a stimulant effect.
It is unfortunate that its effects have to be so illusive. I don't know why the brain has to be so unkind to its inhabitants when the cure is there, but just unaccesable for some reason.
I can tell it has a dopaminergic effect as I loose all apathy. It resores that wonderfull mystical feeling about the world around you.
I go for a walk and I can hear! Like I can really hear the world around me. That humm of the morning. The birds and everything. It brought back so many memories of childhood, when walking to school in the morning. Aspects of the environment I'd long since forgotten. Everyhing looked really interesting.You know, that feeling like just going for a walk is enjoyable again.
It creates a profound sence of self. Who you are, and what you are to family and friends.
I just wish we were able to do more research into what is actually happening.
sorry for rambling, but it is kind of miraculous,
for a day I could say that I felt like it was to be normal.
Linkadge
Posted by willyee on August 1, 2005, at 4:57:33
In reply to Re: why can't we mimic sleep deprivation, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2005, at 4:09:36
Very nicely put,i know EXACTLY where your comming from.To take a walk without anxiety forcing some kind of destination on it.I personaly miss fall,right when school started,the smell in the air,the cool breeze that makes a sweater just enough to feel perfectably comfortable.
The smell,and feeling of halloween,the tingiling when u see stores put out halloween items,knowing its that time again.The feeling when u see it starts to get a wee bit dark around 5pm.
Lets not even START with Christmas.Holidays and seens brough all types of smells,and feelings,each one distinct and each one such an INCREDABLE JOY.
Needless to say that is all gone since depression came,now its always one big straight road,it dosesnet matter to me whether its july or november,theres no smells,no feelings in my the pit of my stomach.I wonder a lot if aside from the depression itself,is the medication going to block those feelings from ever comming again even if my depression is controlled.
Also,about the sleep deprivation,i also notice even a 2-3 hr sleep resulting in a very early am wake say 5-6am is ok too.
When i pop up at 6am and accept two hrs of sleep im productive from the onset and stay so all day.
ITS THE FULL 6-8 hr sleep that kills me,i wake like someone has been jumping on my head all night,i dont pop up and beging doing stuff,instead i seek my bed again,it takes a bit of time to get moving,and its just all togther crappy.
NO sleep,or a short 2-3 sleep early am wake up,definatly a contrast for me than a FULL nights sleep,which is what most will actualy recomend,yuck.I recently did a post on this exact thing!
Posted by ed_uk on August 1, 2005, at 14:58:19
In reply to Re: why can't we mimic sleep deprivation, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2005, at 4:09:36
Hi Link,
Nardil suppresses REM sleep so much that it might be a bit like being sleep deprived!
~Ed
Posted by Declan on August 1, 2005, at 15:15:47
In reply to Re: why can't we mimic sleep deprivation, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2005, at 4:09:36
G'day Link
I know what you mean about restoring the mystical feeling with sleep deprivation, although I'm thinking back a bit.
But what about all the depressed insomniacs? Maybe when you sleep well, a bit less will do the trick. Younger people will tend to sleep better.
For the last 10 years I've always wanted more sleep. 6 hours is good and 3 frightful the next day.
And when my mother became depressed with agitation her first complaint was that she couldn't sleep. What she needed, and this could be in the other thread (illegal vs legal drugs), was an old fashined paternalistic doctor, I imagine him arriving in a horse drawn cab, and he would have given her an injection of morphine (son, broken neck, plenty of guilt), sat with her talking until she was asleep, and repeat for a week, with practical instructions for life when appropriate. I think her depression had elements of frightful loneliness not helped much by the professional, somewhat distanced approach of her doctors and care givers.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2005, at 17:40:27
In reply to Re: why can't we mimic sleep deprivation » linkadge, posted by Declan on August 1, 2005, at 15:15:47
Sleep deprivation seems to be a binary thing for me. It either totally works perfectly or doesn't work at all. I am not talking about those restless groggy nights where you lie down for 10 hours and pop in and out of sleep the whole time. For me its got to be a conscious forced staying away the whole night. It gives me back that flashbulb moment of saying to myself "that's why I am staying alive"
It completely takes my mind off myself.
Fall is a good time. It can be very blissfull if things go right. But it can be very depressing if things go wrong.
Linkadge
Posted by WeeWilly on August 2, 2005, at 10:23:04
In reply to Re: why can't we mimic sleep deprivation, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2005, at 17:40:27
Back in 1987 it occured to me that Inhibin might be a factor in my own mood disorder. As the years have gone by I have followed the progress in the understanding of Inhibins function in the CNS. When it was first isolated in 1985 it was thought to have a very small role. It is now known to have wide rangeing functions. Just last year a study headed by Andrew Shelling at the U of NZ, identified a mutation in some individuals inhibin gene to cause mood problems along with other disabilities. Unfortunatley this research group is focused on the reproductive problems that this mutated gene causes. Hopefully another research group with a goal of understanding Inhibins effect on mood will put 2 & 2 together.
I have had my Inhibin level measured before and after sleep deprivation and it definately elevates. The endocronologist who allows me to have these tests done ( at considerable expense), does'nt discount my theory alltogether. But he expresses what I allready know that being, studies have not been done yet to give us understanding of Inhibin and its many functions in the CNS. Best Wishes
Posted by linkadge on August 2, 2005, at 15:58:47
In reply to Sleep deprivation elevates Inhibin B levels!, posted by WeeWilly on August 2, 2005, at 10:23:04
Crazy. Could you give a little more info on what this substance does ? Is it a neurotransmitter? Does it alter the functionality of the monoamines ?
Interested.
Linkadge
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