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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 42. Go back in thread:
Posted by Maxime on April 13, 2005, at 20:15:59
In reply to Re: oops, posted by stresser on April 13, 2005, at 12:51:10
> How do you take it without falling asleep? I take one and one half at night for RLS and it knocks me out. I can see how it would help with anxiety, but it's very sedating for me.-L
4 mg does nothing to me ... sedation wise. Everyone metabolises meds differently. And lord knows I am a freak of nature especially when it comes to meds.
Maxime
Posted by Maxime on April 13, 2005, at 20:19:04
In reply to Re: love, i mean freakin' LOVE klonopin, posted by lunesta on April 13, 2005, at 17:49:50
> just four topics up there is someone needing help with WD from kpin. I am just saying bliss doesnt last forever, these meds are dangerous and ruin lives. I had a seizure when w/d from kpin over months times. I find Lyrica to be better and safer.
You say that now about Lyrica. But what about a year from now? Nothing is fool-proof.
Maxime
Posted by lunesta on April 14, 2005, at 8:12:34
In reply to Re: love, i mean freakin' LOVE klonopin » lunesta, posted by Maxime on April 13, 2005, at 20:19:04
that is my point, though ive already abruptly wityhdrawn from Lyrica, it is safe to do so.
Posted by Maxime on April 14, 2005, at 12:06:10
In reply to Re: love, i mean freakin' LOVE klonopin » Maxime, posted by lunesta on April 14, 2005, at 8:12:34
> that is my point, though ive already abruptly wityhdrawn from Lyrica, it is safe to do so.
>
>That's good to know. But do you know if it has any mood stabilising properties, because klonopin does.
I don't know why I bother asking .... it will years before it comes available in Canada.
Maxime
Posted by tendency on April 14, 2005, at 13:17:17
In reply to Re: love, i mean freakin' LOVE klonopin » lunesta, posted by Maxime on April 14, 2005, at 12:06:10
> That's good to know. But do you know if it has any mood stabilising properties, because klonopin does.
>
> Maximei have noticed that my mood is much more stable on klonopin. this certainly surprised me. is this a known effect of klonopin or anecdotal for some people?
Posted by notfeelingthebest on April 14, 2005, at 16:41:02
In reply to klonopin and mood stabilizing » Maxime, posted by tendency on April 14, 2005, at 13:17:17
I dont find it mood stabilizing. I'm glad to hear that you're loving it, I did too about a year ago. I don't want to be a bummmer or ruin the old placebo effect, but this has been my experience:
- the feeling of absolute relief: wears off.
- the diminished anxiety that is making you more outgoing: wore off for me.
- euphoric? I never fealt that it actually made me happy; I was just feeling more gratification from my temporary liberation.
The unfortunate thing about benzos for most people is that they are a kind of "flowers for algernon" type drug. Wouldn't it be great if all the bad side effects (memory, clumbsiness) wore off but the good stuff stayed for ever? For once, you'd actually have a drug that was a real live "cure."On a lighter note, it is an anticonvulsant and those qualities seem to remain. I find, and others have too, that a milder calming effect remains - with a constant dose.
You get so used to it, and you don't actually "feel" it, so you begin to think that it is having no effect anymore. This was my experience so I decided to quit. Others find it hard, I didn't - although my life affords me the time to take holidays where I can taper off meds in peace.
Once you're off, you get reaquainted with "old self" and you remember quickly how bad things can be. So I'm back on.
Even when you become tolerant, you may still be free from some of the worst aspects of your non-medicated life. I'd say its about a 30 percent improvement. Not bad my any means, but you'll find that new-self just isnt quite good enough. You'll still be looking for that 80 to 100 percent effect that klonopin first gave you. When will these pharmacy kingpins stop messing around with these ridiculous SSRI things and come up with some kind of non-intoxicating, not-motor skill impairing, completely healthy, alcohol/cocaine in a pill type drug?
It MUST be possible.
Advice: take as little as possible and drag out your current experience for as long as you can. I didn't and I regret it. I still would have eventually ended up here, but that Mr. "hi, how are you? Absolutely nothing at all bothers me" would have been nice to enjoy for a bit longer.
Posted by tendency on April 14, 2005, at 17:09:04
In reply to Re: klonopin and mood stabilizing, posted by notfeelingthebest on April 14, 2005, at 16:41:02
> I dont find it mood stabilizing. I'm glad to hear that you're loving it, I did too about a year ago. I don't want to be a bummmer or ruin the old placebo effect, but this has been my experience:
>
> - the feeling of absolute relief: wears off.
>
> - the diminished anxiety that is making you more outgoing: wore off for me.
>
> - euphoric? I never fealt that it actually made me happy; I was just feeling more gratification from my temporary liberation.
>
>
> The unfortunate thing about benzos for most people is that they are a kind of "flowers for algernon" type drug. Wouldn't it be great if all the bad side effects (memory, clumbsiness) wore off but the good stuff stayed for ever? For once, you'd actually have a drug that was a real live "cure."
>
> On a lighter note, it is an anticonvulsant and those qualities seem to remain. I find, and others have too, that a milder calming effect remains - with a constant dose.
>
> You get so used to it, and you don't actually "feel" it, so you begin to think that it is having no effect anymore. This was my experience so I decided to quit. Others find it hard, I didn't - although my life affords me the time to take holidays where I can taper off meds in peace.
>
> Once you're off, you get reaquainted with "old self" and you remember quickly how bad things can be. So I'm back on.
>
> Even when you become tolerant, you may still be free from some of the worst aspects of your non-medicated life. I'd say its about a 30 percent improvement. Not bad my any means, but you'll find that new-self just isnt quite good enough. You'll still be looking for that 80 to 100 percent effect that klonopin first gave you. When will these pharmacy kingpins stop messing around with these ridiculous SSRI things and come up with some kind of non-intoxicating, not-motor skill impairing, completely healthy, alcohol/cocaine in a pill type drug?
>
> It MUST be possible.
>
> Advice: take as little as possible and drag out your current experience for as long as you can. I didn't and I regret it. I still would have eventually ended up here, but that Mr. "hi, how are you? Absolutely nothing at all bothers me" would have been nice to enjoy for a bit longer.
damn - sorry to hear that.i certainly am not feeling euphoric off it.
my therapist and i have an idea that really the linchpin of many of my issues could be the years and years worth on chronic anxiety i was suffering from.
i was constantly full of this buzzing butterflies-in-the-stomach-tight-chest feeling and this energy needs to go somewhere. for me this often would express itself as anger or irritability or depression. its natural if you try to control this energy by shutting it down that you would feel depressed. also i think that i tend to enjoy socializing and due to anxiety it's something ive not been able to effectively due for *years*. this too can lead to depression, anger, irritability, moodiness..etc.
so, this may in part explain why so many of these symptoms have vastly improved when the anxiety is removed.
i dont feel that the klonopin has done anything other than remove the anxiety, that, in turn, has had a huge ripple effect.
anyhow, that's my current thinking.
BTW, taking .5mg DID.
Posted by tendency on April 14, 2005, at 17:17:35
In reply to Re: klonopin and mood stabilizing, posted by notfeelingthebest on April 14, 2005, at 16:41:02
thought of a few more comments..
> - the feeling of absolute relief: wears off.
this would be expected. no state will last forever - and if it did (thank god they don't) you'd probably burn your brain out.
> - the diminished anxiety that is making you more outgoing: wore off for me.are you / were you in therapy during this time? my therapist made a good point. often, when these meds are taken they will remove the physical cause of symptoms but not the psychological ones. At first, the removal of the physical symptoms is so novel and welcome that there effectively is no 'room' for the psychological conditions that contribute. Over time, however, as the novelty wears off, the psychological patterns will re-assert themselves which in turn can bring about a return of symptoms. Meds alone will never remove all the symptoms in my opinion, the physical and psychological are so intertwined. I don't mean to sound patronizing..just wanted to share some thoughts that I've seen to be true in my case.
> The unfortunate thing about benzos for most people is that they are a kind of "flowers for algernon" type drug. Wouldn't it be great if all the bad side effects (memory, clumbsiness)
only been on the 10 days but so far ive no side effects..
> You get so used to it, and you don't actually "feel" it, so you begin to think that it is having no effect anymore. This was my experience so I decided to quit. Others find it hard, I didn't - although my life affords me the time to take holidays where I can taper off meds in peace.glad to hear it was not difficult for you to wean from.
Posted by notfeelingthebest on April 14, 2005, at 17:36:40
In reply to Re: klonopin and mood stabilizing » notfeelingthebest, posted by tendency on April 14, 2005, at 17:09:04
That was pretty much my conclusion. Dr.'s are so hesitant to medicate (which makes sense), but they never seem to fully respect the immense stress you deal with while not medicated - and how it gets worse and worse as the years go by. As you mature, you become increasingly aware of whats missing in your life, and the void gets bigger and bigger. The side-effects of living like this aren't really considered. Its as if, as long as you're not taking anything, you're safe.
My experience has pretty much been the same as yours. As soon as I started taking klonopin, this huge weight was lifted and the extra energy left over was incredible. I won't get into the dry subject of jogging, but I could literally run a full third longer than my regular time - instantly.
But, as I said, it didn't last. I have no interest in psychologists, and I have absolutely no interest in SSRIs, but after my experience with klonpin, I am certainly interested in exploring what the world of pharmacology has to offer. I guess I'm searching for my own personal magic-mix like most others here.
Its frustrating as hell though. Pick up the yellow pages and call a few pharmacists. Ask them the exact same questions about klonopin regarding long term use, tolerance, etc. Each one will contradict the next. Its absurd. I'd bet that pdocs are little different.
Posted by notfeelingthebest on April 14, 2005, at 18:31:03
In reply to Re: klonopin and mood stabilizing more thoughts » notfeelingthebest, posted by tendency on April 14, 2005, at 17:17:35
> thought of a few more comments..
>
> > - the feeling of absolute relief: wears off.
>
> this would be expected. no state will last forever - and if it did (thank god they don't) you'd probably burn your brain out.
>
> > - the diminished anxiety that is making you more outgoing: wore off for me.
>
> are you / were you in therapy during this time? my therapist made a good point. often, when these meds are taken they will remove the physical cause of symptoms but not the psychological ones. At first, the removal of the physical symptoms is so novel and welcome that there effectively is no 'room' for the psychological conditions that contribute. Over time, however, as the novelty wears off, the psychological patterns will re-assert themselves which in turn can bring about a return of symptoms. Meds alone will never remove all the symptoms in my opinion, the physical and psychological are so intertwined. I don't mean to sound patronizing..just wanted to share some thoughts that I've seen to be true in my case.
>
> > The unfortunate thing about benzos for most people is that they are a kind of "flowers for algernon" type drug. Wouldn't it be great if all the bad side effects (memory, clumbsiness)
>
> only been on the 10 days but so far ive no side effects..
>
>
> > You get so used to it, and you don't actually "feel" it, so you begin to think that it is having no effect anymore. This was my experience so I decided to quit. Others find it hard, I didn't - although my life affords me the time to take holidays where I can taper off meds in peace.
>
> glad to hear it was not difficult for you to wean from.
>
I personally don't really need a therapist to talk to. I guess some people require it, and others might find talking to someone comforting. Our "problems" and the medications we take have a bit of a stigma attached, so its not like you can just discuss it openly and freely without harming your rep. Even constantly badgering your close friends/family is a total downer so... I prefer personal contemplation.My experience with psychologists has been all negative. They take forever asking about your family and blah blah blah. Obviously, they tend to favour the theory that our problems our environmental; not hereditary. And when you tell them about your abnormal behaviour, they love to respond "well what do you consider normal?" It's as if you're imagining your problems and if you could just have that monumental epiphany they're always telling you about, you will set yourself free. WRONG. Ok, if your uncle abused you, then its environmental. Otherwise, you can't just think your way out of the hole you're in - if your problems are in any way similar to mine. Nonetheless, yes, your therapist did make a good point. But where do you go from there?
Pdocs are a little better because they're actually legitimate professionals, but they always seem to have their favourite drugs that you just HAVE to try. It doesn't seem to concern them that throughout all these lengthy trials they have lined up for you, you actually have a life that you're trying to manage. You can't afford to wigg out one day, and then act like nothing happened the next. Contrary to what they tell you, people actually are judging you constantly; are very perceptive of odd behaviour; and will lose respect for you if they see you as being inept.
Ideally I'd like to find "Dr. Prescribe-away" and do my own research and mixing and matching with a little advice from say... the general consensus of about ten pharmacists. The goal being: to find the magic vitamins that bridge the gap between my genetics and normal people.
Whoopsie, another essay. I'm taking dexedrine too (sorry).
Posted by Maxime on April 14, 2005, at 20:46:59
In reply to klonopin and mood stabilizing » Maxime, posted by tendency on April 14, 2005, at 13:17:17
It a known effect. It is indicated for bipolar which I why I take it. It's anti-convulsant even though it is a benzo. I think of it as an atypical benzo. :-) It really doesn't work that well for anxiety for most people anyway.
Maxime
> > That's good to know. But do you know if it has any mood stabilising properties, because klonopin does.
> >
> > Maxime
>
> i have noticed that my mood is much more stable on klonopin. this certainly surprised me. is this a known effect of klonopin or anecdotal for some people?
Posted by notfeelingthebest on April 14, 2005, at 20:55:31
In reply to Re: klonopin and mood stabilizing, posted by Maxime on April 14, 2005, at 20:46:59
Is bipolar starting to become a catch-all term for anything from mild mood swings to psychopathy? I don't mean that as a joke. What symptoms do you have that had you end up being diagnosed as BP?
(and regarding klonopin and anxiety, there is nothing more effacious for SP)
Posted by theo on April 14, 2005, at 22:50:53
In reply to Re: I love it too! Glad to hear it! tendency, posted by krybrahaha78 on April 12, 2005, at 22:40:14
What dose of Luvox do you take. Do you take at bedtime?
Posted by Maxime on April 14, 2005, at 23:00:51
In reply to Re: klonopin and mood stabilizing, posted by notfeelingthebest on April 14, 2005, at 20:55:31
> Is bipolar starting to become a catch-all term for anything from mild mood swings to psychopathy? I don't mean that as a joke. What symptoms do you have that had you end up being diagnosed as BP?
>
> (and regarding klonopin and anxiety, there is nothing more effacious for SP)- racing thoughts one after other. Ideas, ideas, ideas, and more ideas.
- I once wrote all over my wall in pencil all the ideas I had for books, business plans, volunteer projects.
-I would need little sleep for days and get more done than imaginable.
- I would talk so fast that people told me to slow down
-Lights and noises become so intense. All my senses are heightened. One time I curled up in the middle of a street that is closed off for shopping. Everything was too loud and too bright and it seemed like everyone was too close. I was brought to the hospital.
- Spending sprees (and now debt)
- I would lose any inhibitions.And then the crash. I'm bipolar type 2 which means my highs aren't as high as a full blown manic episode.
I haven't had hypomania like that for a long time. Usually I get the irritable form. A mixed state of depression and hypomania. I feel like I am surrounded by idiots. I still get the racing thoughts. These aren't obsessive thoughts they are like a "whoosh" of ideas all at once. But I haven't had the irritable moments for several months now or the racing thoughts. Just unrelenting suicidal depression.
I think it's important to distinguish between the two forms. If I were bipolar type 1 klonopin and trileptal would not be sufficient to keep me from flying high. Also people with BP type 2 tend to lean more towards depression.
But I agree with you. You do hear the term being used more often. But it's not a mild mood swing. Even hypomania feels intense to me.
Sometimes I say I have mood disorder. Sometimes I say I am a soft bipolar. On this board I just say bipolar.
And re. klonopin for anxiety, there seems to be a lot of people who don't find it effective for GAD but do find it helpful for SP. So I think it depends on what type of anxiety.
Maxime
Posted by banga on April 14, 2005, at 23:11:08
In reply to Re: klonopin and mood stabilizing » notfeelingthebest, posted by Maxime on April 14, 2005, at 23:00:51
> > If I were bipolar type 1 klonopin and trileptal would not be sufficient to keep me from flying high. Also people with BP type 2 tend to lean more towards depression.
Hi Maxime!!
I am searching for meds for a friend who just went through a bad manic episode. She is BPI. As I am clearly on the depression end I know less specifics about BPI meds.....
They have her on Zyprexa and lithium. What is you first thought about a less side effect-filled med program in such a case? Of course she complains of fatigue and weight gain...oh! and she does have a marked anxiety component....Just thought you may have some thoughts....
Posted by banga on April 14, 2005, at 23:22:34
In reply to Re: klonopin and mood stabilizing, posted by notfeelingthebest on April 14, 2005, at 20:55:31
I wish I could know what you guys are talking about. I had a paradoxical reaction and it totally destabilized me--crying uncontrollably, depressed, anxious....tried for three days, this negative effect did not abate...
Would have ben nice to see how life is without horrid anxiety. Though I am doing quite well...but not anxiety-free.
Posted by Kon on April 15, 2005, at 2:44:30
In reply to Re: klonopin and mood stabilizing, posted by Maxime on April 14, 2005, at 20:46:59
>It really doesn't work that well for anxiety for most people anyway.
Noty sure where you got this info but for both social anxiety and panic disorder it is among the most effective drugs out there.
Posted by Maxime on April 15, 2005, at 14:39:45
In reply to Re: klonopin and mood stabilizing, posted by Kon on April 15, 2005, at 2:44:30
> >It really doesn't work that well for anxiety for most people anyway.
>
> Noty sure where you got this info but for both social anxiety and panic disorder it is among the most effective drugs out there.*bangs head against wall*
Okay, read some of the posts here then about the people who do not find it effective. For some people it's great. But I too was surprised to see so many write how klonopin was not effective and that they like Xanax better. I think it's because Xanax works so quickly. But Klonpin lasts longer.
So my comment was based on what I read on this board over the years. I haven't read any studies because it's not of interest to me. So my statement was based on posts I have read here and on crazymeds.org.
Personally, I love the med.
Maxime
Posted by Maxime on April 15, 2005, at 14:43:35
In reply to Re: love, i mean freakin' LOVE klonopin » Maxime, posted by lunesta on April 14, 2005, at 8:12:34
I am recanting my statement that "klonopin does not work that well for anxiety anyway". I didn't continue my thoughts on the topic and I really don't want to right now. But please, stop sending me Babble-Mail!
It was a overly generalised statement. Pretend I never said it.
Thanks!
Maxime
Posted by Maxime on April 15, 2005, at 14:55:49
In reply to Re: mood stabilizing » Maxime, posted by banga on April 14, 2005, at 23:11:08
Hi Banga!
Lithium and Depakote are the first line treatments for people with BP 1. Although I have read that Lamictal can be used as well especially if the person leans more towards depression. If the person has more manic episodes than depressive then Lithium is the best.
You gain more weight on Depakote. You gain weight on Lithium but it's water weight and if you push enough fluids through you, it helps a lot. Actually you need to drink a lot of water when you are lithium anyway.
The Zyprexa is going to pack on the pounds. She could try Abilify because there isn't the same weight gain. It really helps to relieve anxiety for some people ... for other it makes it worse. Or she could try Klonopin for the anxiety which would also act as a mood stabiliser. You don't gain much weight on it. I haven't gained any. If the Abilify makes her more anxious, then Seroquel would be the next one to try. Again, you don't gain as much weight on it as you do Zyprexa. Zyprexa is a killer when it comes to weight gain.
I think over the years, people who take Lithium gain weight because lithium will eventually cause hypothyroidism. So keeping an eye on thyroid levels would be good. If she has just had a major manic episode she should wait before trying the lamictal. But 2 years ago the FDA officially approved Lamictal as first line treatment for Bipolar type 1.
I hope this helps. I am sure Ed or SLS can do a better a job than me.
xxxx
Maxi> > > If I were bipolar type 1 klonopin and trileptal would not be sufficient to keep me from flying high. Also people with BP type 2 tend to lean more towards depression.
>
> Hi Maxime!!
> I am searching for meds for a friend who just went through a bad manic episode. She is BPI. As I am clearly on the depression end I know less specifics about BPI meds.....
> They have her on Zyprexa and lithium. What is you first thought about a less side effect-filled med program in such a case? Of course she complains of fatigue and weight gain...oh! and she does have a marked anxiety component....
>
> Just thought you may have some thoughts....
Posted by Maxime on April 15, 2005, at 14:58:32
In reply to Re: klonopin and mood stabilizing, posted by banga on April 14, 2005, at 23:22:34
I know Banga, for *some people* it just makes the anxiety worse or it doesn't help.
I hope you find something soon. Did you ever try a beta-blocker? Or bio-feedback (Alternative board I know!)?
Maxime
> I wish I could know what you guys are talking about. I had a paradoxical reaction and it totally destabilized me--crying uncontrollably, depressed, anxious....tried for three days, this negative effect did not abate...
>
> Would have ben nice to see how life is without horrid anxiety. Though I am doing quite well...but not anxiety-free.
Posted by banga on April 15, 2005, at 15:30:26
In reply to Re: mood stabilizing » banga, posted by Maxime on April 15, 2005, at 14:55:49
> Hi Banga!
>
> Lithium and Depakote are the first line treatments for people with BP 1. Although I have read that Lamictal can be used as well especially if the person leans more towards depression. If the person has more manic episodes than depressive then Lithium is the best.
Hi Maxime!!
thank you for the input. She is one to gain weight easily so she would prefer something that causes less weight gain. I was wondering about Trileptal..
She tends to stay mostly in an anxious, marginally hypomanic state (IMO), if she has depressive symptoms they are more transient. I too was wondering whether Lamictal would give her something or not.
I guess time will tell, to see if her doctor ok's a switch to something with less side effects....Seroquel came to my mind too--given her anxiety and maybe agitated state.
Posted by TamaraJ on April 15, 2005, at 19:17:00
In reply to Re: klonopin and mood stabilizing, posted by banga on April 14, 2005, at 23:22:34
Hi Banga,
I seem to be having the same reaction to Klonopin as you. I have been taking it at night and only .5 mg. I took it at night for about 4 or 5 nights in a row when it was first prescribed, and every morning and even throughout the day I felt sad, weepy and a bit irritable. I stopped taking it, but then I thought I may have been experiencing PMS and had been hasty in my decision to stop the Klonopin. So, for the past 4 or 5 nights I have been taking .5mg again, and, sure enough, my mood seems to be on the decline, I feel weepy (not actually crying, just constantly feel on the verge) and somewhat irritable. So, I have come to the conclusion that Klonopin is not for me.
Anyway, short story long to get to my simple question for you: how long did it take for the destablizing effects of the Klonopin to wear off?
Thanks.
Tamara
> I wish I could know what you guys are talking about. I had a paradoxical reaction and it totally destabilized me--crying uncontrollably, depressed, anxious....tried for three days, this negative effect did not abate...
>
> Would have ben nice to see how life is without horrid anxiety. Though I am doing quite well...but not anxiety-free.
Posted by banga on April 15, 2005, at 19:32:54
In reply to Re: klonopin seems to destablize me as well » banga, posted by TamaraJ on April 15, 2005, at 19:17:00
Hi Tamara!
I truly cannot remember how long it took...I think I was better in a day or two. Pretty much as soon as it was out of my system. Was not better completely, but then again I was not feeling well before I even tried the klonopin.... But at least I was not curled up in bed and weeping uncontrollably. Well, I probably *was* still curled up in bed as this was my usual place before I started improving...
Posted by TamaraJ on April 15, 2005, at 20:32:37
In reply to Re: klonopin seems to destablize me as well » TamaraJ, posted by banga on April 15, 2005, at 19:32:54
This is the end of the thread.
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