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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by jakeman on November 11, 2004, at 0:36:35
In reply to why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 8, 2004, at 20:04:23
me and my brother both take wellbutrin. He has a full head of hair, my hair is thinning like crazy.
Posted by tsirch on November 11, 2004, at 14:41:53
In reply to why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 8, 2004, at 20:04:23
I just started taking sinemet, 50/200mg. 50mg of carbidopa, and 200mg levodopa. Thease pills give the brain a blast of dopamine and you would think that it would put you in a better mood. Its an anti-parkinson's. Ive been taking one in the morning for two days now along with my neurontin. Nothing, no difference yet. Dopamine sucks.
Posted by Shalom34Israel on November 12, 2004, at 19:08:45
In reply to why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 8, 2004, at 20:04:23
> I am trying to figure out why more antidepressants are not made to effect dopamine. Wellbutrin worked great for me but caused hair loss so I had to quit taking it. It's the only anti-depressant that I have found that works on dopamine. Also dopamine "enhancers" increase sex drive which I would think would be quite appealing for those of us tired of meds that kill it. Sometimes I wonder if the FDA doesn't really want us to feel that great, just complacent, good enough to get by and not complain. I have reason to believe from past chemicals I've ingested that my seratonin receptors may be a bit weak and I also have reason to believe that my dopamine receptors are very effective at relieving depression, increasing sex drive, and increasing interest in daily activities. Anyone got any suggestions?
I not know reason for USA but for Israel, many medications in development that work on dopamine. Recently, Israeli soldiers with PTSD are allowed to smoke cannabis. We like the good life in Israel, dopamine not a bad thing.Shalom
Posted by PhoenixGirl on November 12, 2004, at 19:48:26
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Shalom34Israel on November 12, 2004, at 19:08:45
Posted by linkadge on November 13, 2004, at 11:43:15
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Shalom34Israel on November 12, 2004, at 19:08:45
It really all depends on what your symptoms are.
One person's depression may be caused by an entirely different chemical imballence than
another's. Some people don't respond to SSRI's
and do to wellbutrin/stimulants.Use what works/ find a doctor to prescribe what will work for you.
Linkadge
Posted by Shalom34Israel on November 14, 2004, at 20:01:07
In reply to I want to move to Israel :), posted by PhoenixGirl on November 12, 2004, at 19:48:26
>
Why? you must be combat vet with combat PTSD to smoke it legally here. Objective is not to just turn soldiers into potheads, but to treat their anxiety.
Shalom
Posted by underthewave on November 16, 2004, at 9:35:49
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by linkadge on November 9, 2004, at 8:28:52
I believe that I have become treatment resistant. I was diagnosed with Major Depression and Panic Disorder in 1987. I started with TCAs and then in the 90s started SSRIs. I have also tried the serotonin/norepinephine combos (Effexor, Cymbalta)....It sounds like I might benefit from an increase in Dopamine. What psychiatric drugs increase dopamine and can they be used in combination with SSRIs? I've also heard it helps with libido (and mine is lacking). Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
Posted by King Vultan on November 16, 2004, at 22:57:31
In reply to dopamine -- tell me more please, posted by underthewave on November 16, 2004, at 9:35:49
> I believe that I have become treatment resistant. I was diagnosed with Major Depression and Panic Disorder in 1987. I started with TCAs and then in the 90s started SSRIs. I have also tried the serotonin/norepinephine combos (Effexor, Cymbalta)....It sounds like I might benefit from an increase in Dopamine. What psychiatric drugs increase dopamine and can they be used in combination with SSRIs? I've also heard it helps with libido (and mine is lacking). Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
Wellbutrin is the most common dopaminergic antidepressant, and it is often combined with SSRIs. Provigil is a stimulant that seems to also increase dopamine, and this could also be used with an SSRI. It is only a Schedule IV stimulant and is considered less problematic than the amphetamines and Ritalin, but it can be expensive. You might also consider the MAOI Parnate, which basically has to be taken by itself; although, it does work on serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine. Nardil is another MAOI that is available, but it is not nearly as dopaminergic as Parnate, but it is somewhat more so than an SSRI.Todd
Posted by underthewave on November 17, 2004, at 7:59:37
In reply to Re: dopamine -- tell me more please » underthewave, posted by King Vultan on November 16, 2004, at 22:57:31
Thanks Todd. I did some research yesterday and did find that the WB was dopaminergic. PDOC and I talked last night and I don't want to be on an MAO. In the past we have discussed Provigil but for now we are going to try bumping up the Cymbalta and see what happens. God, I've been on so many meds. You'd think with all of the research that has been done there would be 1 pill that would work on all 3 neurotransmitters. Doc said most of the dopaminergics were used for Parkinsons and schizoprenia..thanks for the info.
Posted by pablo1 on November 17, 2004, at 11:44:01
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Shalom34Israel on November 12, 2004, at 19:08:45
Americans are prudes. It's the Protestant Work Ethic & all that. If it feels good it must be dangerous and bad and risk sending you to hell.
Nonsense!
Posted by pablo1 on November 17, 2004, at 12:04:33
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by tsirch on November 11, 2004, at 14:41:53
tsirch,
Not all dopamine drugs feel good I think, it is odd how differently they act. Certainly many norepenephrine drugs have all sorts of icky side effects. Did you talk your doc into these for depression somehow? My overseas dopamine meds are definitely nice happy pills. Probably not available here because they feel good, only the icky dopamine drugs are allowed here. Ritalin & Amphetamines are probably the only exceptions but they require triplicate forms for prescriptions even though the side effects are no where near as bad as so many other icky feeling drugs.
> I just started taking sinemet, 50/200mg. 50mg of carbidopa, and 200mg levodopa. Thease pills give the brain a blast of dopamine and you would think that it would put you in a better mood. Its an anti-parkinson's. Ive been taking one in the morning for two days now along with my neurontin. Nothing, no difference yet. Dopamine sucks.
Posted by Iansf on November 17, 2004, at 18:29:40
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by pablo1 on November 17, 2004, at 12:04:33
> My overseas dopamine meds are definitely nice happy pills. Probably not available here because they feel good, only the icky dopamine drugs are allowed here. Ritalin & Amphetamines are probably the only exceptions but they require triplicate forms for prescriptions even though the side effects are no where near as bad as so many other icky feeling drugs.
>What dopamine drugs are you taking?
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 17, 2004, at 20:55:10
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by pablo1 on November 17, 2004, at 11:44:01
> Americans are prudes.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 30, 2004, at 20:15:48
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression? » pablo1, posted by Iansf on November 17, 2004, at 18:29:40
What overseas dopamine meds (nice happy pills) are you taking? I have been getting pretty disgusted with what I've been finding out about American pharmaceutical companies. I'm starting to see the patterns of ridiculous overmarketing, over-prescribing, often more side effects than benefits and then lawsuits, etc. I can't understand why they are so against something that will make you feel happy, not just numb. If they're worried about addiction, most of the prescription antidepressants have severe withdrawal. I know from personal experience and from the countless experiences of others. It's like, "here, take this pill, you will have the will to work and be responsible, maybe you'll quit smoking or drinking or getting into abusive relationship, fill in the blank, but, I'm sorry you won't have a sex drive at all but you won't really care, so that's ok, you're hair might fall out, might get insomnia and tired all day, etc etc etc." You know what I'm saying. I just keep trying to understand the motivation. Sorry for the rant....just frustrated. Anybody feel me?
> > My overseas dopamine meds are definitely nice happy pills. Probably not available here because they feel good, only the icky dopamine drugs are allowed here. Ritalin & Amphetamines are probably the only exceptions but they require triplicate forms for prescriptions even though the side effects are no where near as bad as so many other icky feeling drugs.
Posted by gromit on December 1, 2004, at 2:01:39
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 30, 2004, at 20:15:48
> What overseas dopamine meds (nice happy pills) are you taking? I have been getting pretty disgusted with what I've been finding out about American pharmaceutical companies. I'm starting to see the patterns of ridiculous overmarketing, over-prescribing, often more side effects than benefits and then lawsuits, etc. I can't understand why they are so against something that will make you feel happy, not just numb. If they're worried about addiction, most of the prescription antidepressants have severe withdrawal. I know from personal experience and from the countless experiences of others. It's like, "here, take this pill, you will have the will to work and be responsible, maybe you'll quit smoking or drinking or getting into abusive relationship, fill in the blank, but, I'm sorry you won't have a sex drive at all but you won't really care, so that's ok, you're hair might fall out, might get insomnia and tired all day, etc etc etc." You know what I'm saying. I just keep trying to understand the motivation. Sorry for the rant....just frustrated. Anybody feel me?
Maybe they don't want to waste time and money on things not likely to get approved? Our government has gone to the supreme court to take medication away from cancer patients. In my mind that says it all.
Rick
Posted by Sleepless in the ATL on December 1, 2004, at 7:44:44
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by gromit on December 1, 2004, at 2:01:39
Exactly. A friend of mine recently took a co-worker to the emergency room because her migraines were so bad she was crying in pain. They refused to give her anything stronger than Tylonol and sent her on her way with a $700 bill. Couldn't they have just saved her the time and money and just cut her off at the door?
Posted by linkadge on December 1, 2004, at 10:34:13
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on December 1, 2004, at 7:44:44
I'm not sure that dopaminergics are the best things for depression.
Think of the number of people in this counry who are using the caffiene/cigarettes combo.
Believe it or not, this is one hell of a dopamine boost. First you have two stimulants caffiene, and nicotine, and you also have the MAO-B inhibiting properties of cigarettes which keep the dopamine alive. Many of our current day depressives are the ones that are junked out on cigarettes and caffiene.
I think the real problem with the SSRI's is that they raise serotonin at every receptor instead of just the ones that are required for an AD effect.
Don't get me wrong, dopamine has its place, but if we were to swich everyone in the country from serotogenics to dopaminergics, we might be in for problems ?
Linkadge
Posted by lostforwards on December 1, 2004, at 11:02:07
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by linkadge on December 1, 2004, at 10:34:13
We'd be overrun with Munsters.
What are the effects at the receptor level of stress? Stress is a pre-condition for the development of depression isn it? What "neurotransmitter systems" are affected most.
I thought that dopmaine would be affected since chronic stress would result in dopamine-norepinephrine conversion, and the drop in dopamine, if the brain can't produce enough to cope, would lead to compensatory changes in the number of receptors.
SSRIs downregulate dopamine receptors in the pfc by increasing dopamine in that part of the brain, that's part of what makes them effective.
How is serotonin influenced by stress?
Posted by jujube on December 1, 2004, at 14:43:29
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression? » linkadge, posted by lostforwards on December 1, 2004, at 11:02:07
I think one Munster is enough! With respect to stress and depression, let's not forget about the role our hormones, including the adrenals and thyroid, play in regulating our moods, our motivation and our ability to cope with stress and anxiety. I may be wrong, but if the adrenal glands are in a state of exhaustion, how can a person respond adequately to AD treatment without first addressing the physiological deficiences? And, at the risk of sounding stupid, if a person's body is nutritionally depleted after, say, years of alcohol or drug abuse or poor/inadequate eating habits, how effective can an AD be if neurotransmitters are depeleted? I mean, how can something like a SSRI work if there is minimal serotonin to block the reuptake of? (Sorry if what I have just said is stupid and inane, it is just something I have wondered for a while.)
Tamara
> We'd be overrun with Munsters.
>
> What are the effects at the receptor level of stress? Stress is a pre-condition for the development of depression isn it? What "neurotransmitter systems" are affected most.
>
> I thought that dopmaine would be affected since chronic stress would result in dopamine-norepinephrine conversion, and the drop in dopamine, if the brain can't produce enough to cope, would lead to compensatory changes in the number of receptors.
>
> SSRIs downregulate dopamine receptors in the pfc by increasing dopamine in that part of the brain, that's part of what makes them effective.
>
> How is serotonin influenced by stress?
Posted by lostforwards on December 1, 2004, at 16:40:10
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression? » lostforwards, posted by jujube on December 1, 2004, at 14:43:29
No, nothing you said was stupid.
I ask and say "stupid" things all the time. I come here for information, especially if the questions something really strange that I won't get an answer to by just typing it into google. And you've just helped me. ( though I guess I could probably go and sift through the net if I was really intent on learning more about depression )
A while back somebody posted ( linkadge? ) something about a tryptophan depletion study. It didn't matter if people were on or off their SSRIs, they were still depressed. That would be an example of how nutrional depletion can mess with the effectiveness of an AD.
Posted by jujube on December 1, 2004, at 16:53:55
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by lostforwards on December 1, 2004, at 16:40:10
I think part of the problem when someone is being treated for mental illness, particularly depression and anxiety, is that the patient is not treated in a wholistic manner. You will see a pdoc who will give you an AD, a benzo and maybe a mood stabilizer, but nothing is done to address other aspects of the illness. I mean, it is not unusual for someone in a depressive or anxious state to not be eating, to not exercising, to not be practicing good sleep hygiene, and to be completely neglecting their nutritional and emotional needs. If the medical community really wanted to see people getting healthy, perhaps what should be done is to provide patients with access to a comprehensive package of services - pdoc, nutritionalist, talk therapist. I don't know, maybe such an approach would yield better and longer-term results in some cases.
Tamara
> No, nothing you said was stupid.
>
> I ask and say "stupid" things all the time. I come here for information, especially if the questions something really strange that I won't get an answer to by just typing it into google. And you've just helped me. ( though I guess I could probably go and sift through the net if I was really intent on learning more about depression )
>
> A while back somebody posted ( linkadge? ) something about a tryptophan depletion study. It didn't matter if people were on or off their SSRIs, they were still depressed. That would be an example of how nutrional depletion can mess with the effectiveness of an AD.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by lostforwards on December 1, 2004, at 18:07:29
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression? » lostforwards, posted by jujube on December 1, 2004, at 16:53:55
I totally agree with a wholistic approach. I have bipolar and I when I tried Omega 3s, they worked really well for me. I woke up feeling great within days of using them. I also gave Taurine a try and it smoothed things out a lot too. I think alternatives nutritional treatments are too often neglected.
What's good sleep hygiene? Do you mean staying up a lot? I've never heard it reffered to that way before.
Posted by jujube on December 1, 2004, at 18:22:39
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression? » jujube, posted by lostforwards on December 1, 2004, at 18:07:29
I recently came across an article on the web written by Margo Kidder in which she describes her approach to dealing with her manic-depression (bipolar). She has decided to treat it with diet and nutritional supplements, including amino acids, instead of meds. That approach may not be for everybody, but it seems to be working for her. I should have bookmarked the site. In my opinion, the foods that a person eats are even more important than the supplements a person takes. Supplements are meant to augment what a person is getting from their daily food intake. However, I know myself that I don't eat right (although I am working on that), and taking supplements helps ensure that I am getting the vitamins/minerals I need on a daily basis.
In answer to your question, about good sleep hygiene, as I understand it, it is basically taking the necessary steps to ensure a good night's sleep, including blocking out anything that could disrupt sleep (e.g., noise, light), adjusting the temperature of the room, ensuring you have a good pillow and a good mattress, getting to bed at a decent hour (I read somewhere that even getting to bed after ten at night can be disruptive - having something to do with corisol), not eating heavy foods or stimulating drinks or foods (e.g. caffienated drinks, chocolate, carbs, etc.) before bed, etc.
Tamara
> I totally agree with a wholistic approach. I have bipolar and I when I tried Omega 3s, they worked really well for me. I woke up feeling great within days of using them. I also gave Taurine a try and it smoothed things out a lot too. I think alternatives nutritional treatments are too often neglected.
>
> What's good sleep hygiene? Do you mean staying up a lot? I've never heard it reffered to that way before.
>
>
>
Posted by Cruz on December 1, 2004, at 19:01:09
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression? » lostforwards, posted by jujube on December 1, 2004, at 18:22:39
The majority of the people on this board have struggled with finding successful treatment. It is natural for us to search for any tips that might be helpfull. I think we all crave to understand what is wrong with our bio-chemistry. Unfortunatley the understanding of the causes of mood disorders is non existant. Focusing on seratonin, NE and dopamine is certainly not broad enough. I know my own form of depression is a hormonal disorder but the endocrine system is not understood any better than neurotransmitters.
Posted by jujube on December 1, 2004, at 19:31:06
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression? » jujube, posted by lostforwards on December 1, 2004, at 18:07:29
I had bookmarked the web page with the article by Margot Kidder, in which she outlines her supplement regime. You can find it at the following website if you are interested:
www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/aminobipolar.htm
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