![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 29. Go back in thread:
Posted by jlbl2l on July 25, 2004, at 21:52:16
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplon » jlbl2l, posted by chemist on July 25, 2004, at 17:40:34
Just search google for this chemist. I suppose if the "z" medicines are used correctly (take it as you are just about to go into bed) it is less likely to cause hallucinations.
HOWEVER, if you purposely take it and "force" yourself (it isnt hard..) to stay awake on the "z" medicines, they cause hallcinations and perceptual changes.
So I would say that it is "very common" in people who are awake on the "z" medicines, but people who use it as prescribed don't have any problems. These medicines are hypnotics, and ive tried everyone one of them. Increasing the dose (double or triple it) and staying awake will EASILY cause hallcinations and severe short term memory loss.
Google any of the "z" drugs and you will see that people purposely stay awake to experience this, and it is quite common.
I remind you that the "z" drugs are schedule 4 in the USA. There is a reason for this :
they are abuseable.
Posted by chemist on July 25, 2004, at 22:23:47
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplon, posted by jlbl2l on July 25, 2004, at 21:52:16
hello there, chemist here....
i did not - nor did the original poster - suggest that the three drugs referred to in the post were not being used correctly.
your statement in re: the ``z drugs'' being schedule IV is incorrect: zopiclone is not available in the U.S., the other 2 are, and are schedule IV. and you need not remind me of scheduling, thank you.
you claim that you ``know quite a bit and have numerous hookups'' because you claim to study autoimmune diseases and ``a lot of other immune related diseases,'' and are a ``volunteer researcher for the national chronic fatigue foundation.'' (this is from your post at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20040724/msgs/370390.html)
given your extensive knowledge and research position, i am confused: you conduct research based on google searches instead of peer-reviewed literature? and you have actually taken all three drugs - 1 of which is not marketed in the U.S., so i assume you obtained it illegally or tried it while abroad - in a manner inconsistant with their proper use? why?
finally, back to the original post: the question pertained to taking the 3 ``z drugs'' as prescribed, not as you describe below. and i do look forward to those peer-reviewed citations and controlled studies that indicate that the ``z drugs'' are known to cause hallucinations when taken as prescribed.
all the best, chemist
> Just search google for this chemist. I suppose if the "z" medicines are used correctly (take it as you are just about to go into bed) it is less likely to cause hallucinations.
>
> HOWEVER, if you purposely take it and "force" yourself (it isnt hard..) to stay awake on the "z" medicines, they cause hallcinations and perceptual changes.
>
> So I would say that it is "very common" in people who are awake on the "z" medicines, but people who use it as prescribed don't have any problems. These medicines are hypnotics, and ive tried everyone one of them. Increasing the dose (double or triple it) and staying awake will EASILY cause hallcinations and severe short term memory loss.
>
> Google any of the "z" drugs and you will see that people purposely stay awake to experience this, and it is quite common.
>
> I remind you that the "z" drugs are schedule 4 in the USA. There is a reason for this :
> they are abuseable.
Posted by jlbl2l on July 25, 2004, at 23:58:42
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplon » jlbl2l, posted by chemist on July 25, 2004, at 22:23:47
i can't respond my posts get deleted. you know my email if you want talk about this.
jason
Posted by chemist on July 26, 2004, at 0:38:40
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplon, posted by jlbl2l on July 25, 2004, at 23:58:42
> i can't respond my posts get deleted. you know my email if you want talk about this.
>
> jasonhello there, chemist here...the reason i am going after this one with vigor is that, in my opinion, two kinds of information posted on this board: (1) questions concerning medications; and (2) answers to questions that can be further divided into 2 classes: (a) ``this is what my experience was, good luck;'' and (b) ``here is some factual information that - despite it coming from an internet chat room, from a person you do not know - you are going to heed because you are fed up with your doctor or whatever reason.'' i am not an oracle, genius, or all-knowing being. i do regularly see posts where the answer is of type (2b) and occassionally i really, honestly know that this is the wrong course of action. don_bristol posted a query regarding a strange reaction by his girlfriend who has tried three sedative-hypnotics as prescribed by her medical care person. the query was along the lines of ``are hallucinations common?'' and ``what alternatives with the exception of benzos are available?'' in my opinion, and based on the literature and white papers, the response to this post should include 2 items: one concerning hallucinations, and one concerning alternatives. the former is actually of minor interest in that the issue here is that a woman has an atypical reaction to this class of drugs and has problems sleeping. suggestions for alternatives were offered. every post that is relevant to any person reading these threads may or may not take the advice, opinions, etc. some will. your post was a very strongly-worded one that, in the context of the original post, indicates that these medications - taken as prescribed - are very commonly associated with hallucinations. this is not true. your tangent concerning taking sedative-hypnotics and then trying to stay awake was not germane to the post, as that was not what don_bristol was seeking. i am not attacking you but addressing a thread that is misleading and incorrect and worse, has clouded the issue. the fact is, when taken as prescribed, these drugs work as advertised for almost everyone. don_bristol did not mention any other drugs his girlfriend takes, and that makes a valid response that includes that possibility important. a blanket statement that might actually sway a passerby to dump ambien for, say, halcion is not warranted. there are very few data in the literature and in adverse events reported in post-marketing studies of the 2 drugs marketed in the U.S. that indicate that these drugs are very commonly known to cause hallucinations. your post more than implies this, and it is not true. a google-based search of anecdotal stories of people who have taken these medication not in accordance with the instructions of use - i.e., take the meds about 30 minutes before going to bed - does not provide any useful information except that we know that people - including you - have reported hallucinations while forcing themselves to stay awake after taking a sedative-hypnotic. this information is damaging to your credibility in that you have stated that you have actually performed this experiment. there is the issue of the one drug that is not FDA approved or available in the U.S., which indicates that you were in another country when you performed that experiment, or that you have obtained the drug illegally and performed the experiment here, in the U.S. in conclusion, this is not a personal attack: it is my way of doing my best to answer the questions raised by the poster and not introduce information that is not supported by the literature or properly controlled studies. that is all. all the best, chemist
Posted by jlbl2l on July 26, 2004, at 0:52:44
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplon » jlbl2l, posted by chemist on July 26, 2004, at 0:38:40
chemist,
i respectfully disagree. I believe that the "z" drugs at standard dosages commonly cause hallcinations and perceptual changes based on numerous evidence but not formal studies. Obviously, you have to be awake for them, so anyone that does this is staying awake.
And you said that this thread is about don but you are still talking about me and being in other countries trying zopiclone or me expermenting with zopiclone....is this relevant, especially since its speculation....?
Jason/JLBl2l
Posted by Simcha on July 26, 2004, at 2:46:03
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplon, posted by jlbl2l on July 26, 2004, at 0:52:44
I use Ambien(Zolbidem) regularly. I don't use it every night. Sometimes I do stay up a bit after using it at 10mg. I have never experienced hallucinations. In fact the studies I have read find that this is a rare side effect. It does happen, but it is rare.
As far as addiction goes. I can take it or leave it. I only take it as a last resort when I cannot get to sleep through meditation, Neurontin, etc....
I'm using it tonight because I'm up (obviously) too late. I'm not able to get to sleep tonight so I will take this wonder drug to get me to sleep a nice restful sleep. I never wake up groggy. I wake up refreshed.
Simcha
Posted by don_bristol on July 26, 2004, at 7:53:49
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplon, posted by jlbl2l on July 25, 2004, at 23:58:42
> i can't respond my posts get deleted. you know my email if you want talk about this.
>
> jasonJason, I am confused.
Are you saying that Dr Bob (or someone else like him) is deleting your posts from this message board?
Don
Posted by don_bristol on July 26, 2004, at 8:04:28
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplon » jlbl2l, posted by chemist on July 25, 2004, at 17:40:34
> > VERY common on all these sleeping meds. Also severe MEMORY loss can occur. They are addicting as well and tolerance is gained.
> > Be very careful on these... Don't drive!
>
>
>
> hello there, chemist here....i quickie on pubmed with keywords ``hallucination and zolpidem'' yielded 13 hits, many with no abstracts available. one indicates a 54 year-old male was stopped for erratic driving and blood tests were positive for zolpidem, fluoxetine, and hydrocodone (no alcohol); the next reports a young woman who experienced hallucinations during stopping/restarting zolpidem use; the next (published in 1998, so the number of cases is low, i suspect) states that the Washington Poison Center received 5 reports of hallucinations associated with zolpidem in the previous 2 years and that all 5 individuals were concurrently taking an antidepressant; and another reports 2 cases who had psychotic reactions and suggests that in addition to other cases (number not specified), all were female and there was dose dependence. keywords ``hallucination and zopiclone'' yielded zero results; and ``hallucination and zaleplon'' yields one result (abstract not available) entitled ``Perceptual disturbances with zaleplon.'' while a quick jaunt through pubmed is hardly conclusive, i find it hard to believe that hallucinations associated with these medications are ``VERY common,'' as you state, given that collectively, there are 14 publications that might apply, and a few of them indicate that other drugs were on board. in the white paper for zaleplon, hallucinations were noted to occur in the 1% to 10% range of subjects in post-marketing reports; hallucinations are not listed at all under adverse effects for zolpidem, and i do not have the white paper for zopiclone, although given that my pubmed search yeilded zero hits, i am going to go out on a limb here and state that in my opinion, hallucinations associated with zopiclone are not reported. if you have references you can share with us indicating that visual and/or auditory hallucinations are ``VERY common'' for any/all of the 3 drugs listed above, please do provide, as there appears to be a dearth of support in the refereed literature and manufacturers' information.....all the best, chemist
------Hello Chemist, thank you for an exhaustive look through the literature.
One important point which I omitted and which you refer to is the fact that my girlfriend is also taking an antidepressant. In her case it is 25mg escitalopram.
Maybe there is an interaction occurring between the "z" sleeping medications ("imidazoles"?) and her SSRI?
She takes a normal therapeutic dose and she hallucinates although the hallucinations tend to be after something like 45 to 60 minutes. I personally tend to find that these meds make me sleep very quickly so when "jlbl2l" say these hallucinations happen in people who remain awake on these meds then I guess her experience concurs with that.
However I have heard very few references to this and your searches show the same so I can not be sure it is so very common. OTOH some side effects of some meds go unreported for a long time because no one thinks to ask about them. ISTR that Prozac was not thought to cause a noticeable number of sexual side effects until researchers started asking patients about it.
The strange thing is that my girlfriend doeshas not had this hallucinatory effect with any other meds but she can reliably get the hallucinations on these 'z'-sleepers.
Posted by chemist on July 26, 2004, at 8:19:47
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplon » chemist, posted by don_bristol on July 26, 2004, at 8:04:28
hello don, chemist here...i am heartened to hear that - as difficult as it may be - that the antidepressant + ``z drug'' effect is likely the target, as it dovetails with the few studies that indicate that this combination is to blame. of course, i am sorry your girlfriend has to deal with this. the *extreme* nature of lack of evidence in the literature to the contrary makes me wonder. your point about not reporting side effects is well-made, as off to bed you go, anyway. finally, i've only been on PB since march, but i have yet to see a thread such the one for effexor withdrawl (where myriad people of different sexes, races, etc. all report a very similar and nasty condition) in re: hallucinations induced by ambien/sonata/zopiclone. taken with the paucity of reports in the literature, in my opinion, this side effect is rare. one thing i did not mention from my brief stroll on pubmed was that the hallucinations are transient in the few cases that make specific comments in this vein. i do suggest trazodone or a low dose of seroquel. i am somewhat certain that others have reported remeron to be effective, but that is just a partial recollection. in any event, be well, and report if, upon trying a different sleep aid, the desired effect is achieved without the hallucinations....all the best, chemist
> > > VERY common on all these sleeping meds. Also severe MEMORY loss can occur. They are addicting as well and tolerance is gained.
> > > Be very careful on these... Don't drive!
> >
> >
> >
> > hello there, chemist here....i quickie on pubmed with keywords ``hallucination and zolpidem'' yielded 13 hits, many with no abstracts available. one indicates a 54 year-old male was stopped for erratic driving and blood tests were positive for zolpidem, fluoxetine, and hydrocodone (no alcohol); the next reports a young woman who experienced hallucinations during stopping/restarting zolpidem use; the next (published in 1998, so the number of cases is low, i suspect) states that the Washington Poison Center received 5 reports of hallucinations associated with zolpidem in the previous 2 years and that all 5 individuals were concurrently taking an antidepressant; and another reports 2 cases who had psychotic reactions and suggests that in addition to other cases (number not specified), all were female and there was dose dependence. keywords ``hallucination and zopiclone'' yielded zero results; and ``hallucination and zaleplon'' yields one result (abstract not available) entitled ``Perceptual disturbances with zaleplon.'' while a quick jaunt through pubmed is hardly conclusive, i find it hard to believe that hallucinations associated with these medications are ``VERY common,'' as you state, given that collectively, there are 14 publications that might apply, and a few of them indicate that other drugs were on board. in the white paper for zaleplon, hallucinations were noted to occur in the 1% to 10% range of subjects in post-marketing reports; hallucinations are not listed at all under adverse effects for zolpidem, and i do not have the white paper for zopiclone, although given that my pubmed search yeilded zero hits, i am going to go out on a limb here and state that in my opinion, hallucinations associated with zopiclone are not reported. if you have references you can share with us indicating that visual and/or auditory hallucinations are ``VERY common'' for any/all of the 3 drugs listed above, please do provide, as there appears to be a dearth of support in the refereed literature and manufacturers' information.....all the best, chemist
>
>
> ------
>
> Hello Chemist, thank you for an exhaustive look through the literature.
>
> One important point which I omitted and which you refer to is the fact that my girlfriend is also taking an antidepressant. In her case it is 25mg escitalopram.
>
> Maybe there is an interaction occurring between the "z" sleeping medications ("imidazoles"?) and her SSRI?
>
> She takes a normal therapeutic dose and she hallucinates although the hallucinations tend to be after something like 45 to 60 minutes. I personally tend to find that these meds make me sleep very quickly so when "jlbl2l" say these hallucinations happen in people who remain awake on these meds then I guess her experience concurs with that.
>
> However I have heard very few references to this and your searches show the same so I can not be sure it is so very common. OTOH some side effects of some meds go unreported for a long time because no one thinks to ask about them. ISTR that Prozac was not thought to cause a noticeable number of sexual side effects until researchers started asking patients about it.
>
> The strange thing is that my girlfriend doeshas not had this hallucinatory effect with any other meds but she can reliably get the hallucinations on these 'z'-sleepers.
Posted by jlbl2l on July 26, 2004, at 10:50:03
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplon » jlbl2l, posted by don_bristol on July 26, 2004, at 7:53:49
"Jason, I am confused.
Are you saying that Dr Bob (or someone else like him) is deleting your posts from this message board?"
Yes that is exactly what I was saying. I was defending myself agasnt the indirect accusations chemist is trying to implant to make me look bad or something - which was totally unrelated to the original topic... Obviously, Dr. Bob didn't like it, so it was deleted. It is ashame, as my advice and defence etc.. will never be told making me look bad since chemist's posts remain.
Hey, I was trying to help people here... if they want to suffer with there own preconceptions and speculations... so be it.
I'm very happy with my work and research and i've helped numerous people - more than people here would ever know.
Basically, take it or leave it. In this case, since Dr. Bob owns this board, I can't really defend myself but people like chemist can manipulate the situation so it isn't a direct attack on me, but makes me look bad.
So if you want to discuss my opinion, feel free to email me - jlbl2l@gmail.com
Some people here have big egos and its hard to voice an opinon without being critized or attacked.
I wish Dr. Bob would look at the whole thread and situation before deleting someones thread, but its his board, so i say feel free to email me. Its always good to get other opinions, but some people try to force there view... and then attack with irrelvant statements..
It's obvious that I was a target here and few can see that, but oh well. I was trying to help and obviously only 1 persons statement is right, eh?
Believe what you want but i suggest keeping an open mind in research. There is a lot more out there than simple pubmed-type studies often sponsered by the drug companies themsevles (ie: corruption in data due for financial gain)
Real life reports have proven far more effective in treatments of nearly every disease that is supposedly "incurable".
i would love to discuss this further, but I am limited here at Dr. Bob's board, so please anyone can email me at jlbl2l@gmail.com
kind regards,
jlbl2l - Jason
jlbl2l@gmail.com
Posted by Sad Panda on July 26, 2004, at 11:34:32
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplon, posted by jlbl2l on July 25, 2004, at 17:10:27
> VERY common on all these sleeping meds. Also severe MEMORY loss can occur. They are addicting as well and tolerance is gained.
> Be very careful on these... Don't drive!
>
>I have to ask why anyone would take a sleeping pill & then go for a drive! :)
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by Sad Panda on July 26, 2004, at 11:39:12
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplon, posted by jlbl2l on July 25, 2004, at 21:52:16
> HOWEVER, if you purposely take it and "force" yourself (it isnt hard..) to stay awake on the "z" medicines, they cause hallcinations and perceptual changes.
>
> So I would say that it is "very common" in people who are awake on the "z" medicines
>
>Would you say that this phenomena is more or less common than the other group of people that take Z drugs before going for a drive?
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by Sad Panda on July 26, 2004, at 11:43:35
In reply to Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone, zaleplon, posted by don_bristol on July 25, 2004, at 16:40:47
> My girlfriend gets hallucinations on the standard dose of any of these sleeping tablets: zolpidem, zopiclone or zaleplon.
>
> (In her case solid objects start to move in waves and she feels there is someone else present.)
>
> How common are hallucinations with these meds?
>
> What other sleeping tablets could she take apart from benzodiazepines? Could Buspar be used as a sleeping aid?
>
>If she is taking an SSRI I would suggest a sedating AD which blocks 5-HT2A. Remeron, Doxepin or Amitriptyline are what I would try.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 27, 2004, at 16:00:08
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone.. don, posted by jlbl2l on July 26, 2004, at 10:50:03
> > Are you saying that Dr Bob (or someone else like him) is deleting your posts from this message board?
>
> Yes that is exactly what I was saying. I was defending myself agasnt the indirect accusations chemist is trying to implant to make me look bad or something - which was totally unrelated to the original topic... Obviously, Dr. Bob didn't like it, so it was deleted. It is ashame, as my advice and defence etc.. will never be told making me look bad since chemist's posts remain.Are you sure it wasn't a posting glitch? It did get posted, then disappeared?
I haven't deleted anything from you, I don't like to do that. Give it another try? Being extra careful to be civil, if you feel you need to defend yourself? Thanks,
Bob
Posted by jlbl2l on July 27, 2004, at 18:17:51
In reply to Re: it was not deleted » jlbl2l, posted by Dr. Bob on July 27, 2004, at 16:00:08
interesting. i was civil actually, sorry if i offended your moderating skills..
like you said.. it must have been posted and then deleted somehow. I am sure of this because I clicked confirm and it went through and then i closed that window and refreshed the main board and there it was..., i opened it, read it. then i left for a few hours. It was GONE. I assumed you deleted it for some reason. WEll I am glad "you" didnt - i would have gotten a terrible impression of your judgement!!!! :)
hmm, musta been an error i suppose..? =(
Jason
Posted by Racer on July 27, 2004, at 22:27:10
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone.. don, posted by jlbl2l on July 26, 2004, at 10:50:03
I don't think you can say it's a case of "only one person being right", if I understand your meaning correctly as being that you're not being allowed to make your case because someone (I guess Dr Bob) disagrees with you.
One of the problems with a board such as this is that there are no real bona fides available. I can tell you that I'm currently unemployed due to a continuing Major Depressive Episode -- which is the truth -- but I can equally well tell you that I'm a research biochemist at the NIMH. While I'm sure I couldn't sustain the imposture for very long, nor under any real scrutiny, there are a lot of people in this world who might believe me for a time and be swayed by what I wrote. I think that chemist's first post was an attempt to present a balanced picture of the drugs involved, in order to prevent "passersby" from discarding a medication that may be working quite well for them.
For a time, I attended a peer run support group that disallowed any opinions being offered about any medications. The rationale behind this policy was pretty simple: most of the psychotropic drugs out there can have very different effects for different people. For me, for example, Remeron was a total nightmare -- but there are people who have had very good results from it. Ditto Lexapro and Serzone for me, and I'm sure most people on this board could name a drug they think designed and marketed by the devil himself. And for each one of us who has a nightmare horror story about a drug, there's probably someone else here who considers it a life saver.
And it's not just chemist, by the way. I was very concerned when reading your posts in this thread, because I do think that there is a strong possiblity that someone reading them might be frightened off from a drug that might help them a great deal -- a drug that might never cause them any of the adverse effects that you call so common.
I think a lot of us here who have had a bad experience with a specific medication have been guilty at one time or another of posting alarmist comments about that drug. I know that I wrote some pretty heated denunciations of Serzone way back when -- but I also know that my experience will be different from yours, or chemist's, or Sad Panda's, or anyone else's. It's not that I object, per se, to your report of these side effects. I do object, though, to any sweeping claim of commonly occurring adverse effects -- especially when they refer to deliberate misuse of a drug in order to produce that very effect. Any time I read something about a med that sounds too broad, it triggers my bull$%%% detector, and I consider carefully how credible the claim sounds to me, how well it fits with my experience of the world, and whether I can verify any of the elements of the claim in question. There are a lot of people, though, who may not have the skills to do that, or who may simply be so depressed that they lack the clarity do so at that moment. It strikes me a dangerous to ignore the possiblity that those people may be gravely harmed by reading a statement which, while possibly true in some instances, or even common under extraordinary circumstances, is relatively unlikely overall.
I very much doubt that chemist was making a personal attack on you, Jason. I think he was acting out of a concern similar to mine. And I don't think he was attacking you in his post -- I think he was contradicting the information you presented, and he did it with citations to back him up. There really is a difference between the two, you know.
Posted by Sad Panda on July 27, 2004, at 23:24:44
In reply to Re: Hallucinations on zolpidem, zopiclone.. don » jlbl2l, posted by Racer on July 27, 2004, at 22:27:10
> I don't think you can say it's a case of "only one person being right", if I understand your meaning correctly as being that you're not being allowed to make your case because someone (I guess Dr Bob) disagrees with you.
>
> One of the problems with a board such as this is that there are no real bona fides available. I can tell you that I'm currently unemployed due to a continuing Major Depressive Episode -- which is the truth -- but I can equally well tell you that I'm a research biochemist at the NIMH. While I'm sure I couldn't sustain the imposture for very long, nor under any real scrutiny, there are a lot of people in this world who might believe me for a time and be swayed by what I wrote. I think that chemist's first post was an attempt to present a balanced picture of the drugs involved, in order to prevent "passersby" from discarding a medication that may be working quite well for them.
>
> For a time, I attended a peer run support group that disallowed any opinions being offered about any medications. The rationale behind this policy was pretty simple: most of the psychotropic drugs out there can have very different effects for different people. For me, for example, Remeron was a total nightmare -- but there are people who have had very good results from it. Ditto Lexapro and Serzone for me, and I'm sure most people on this board could name a drug they think designed and marketed by the devil himself. And for each one of us who has a nightmare horror story about a drug, there's probably someone else here who considers it a life saver.
>
> And it's not just chemist, by the way. I was very concerned when reading your posts in this thread, because I do think that there is a strong possiblity that someone reading them might be frightened off from a drug that might help them a great deal -- a drug that might never cause them any of the adverse effects that you call so common.
>
> I think a lot of us here who have had a bad experience with a specific medication have been guilty at one time or another of posting alarmist comments about that drug. I know that I wrote some pretty heated denunciations of Serzone way back when -- but I also know that my experience will be different from yours, or chemist's, or Sad Panda's, or anyone else's. It's not that I object, per se, to your report of these side effects. I do object, though, to any sweeping claim of commonly occurring adverse effects -- especially when they refer to deliberate misuse of a drug in order to produce that very effect. Any time I read something about a med that sounds too broad, it triggers my bull$%%% detector, and I consider carefully how credible the claim sounds to me, how well it fits with my experience of the world, and whether I can verify any of the elements of the claim in question. There are a lot of people, though, who may not have the skills to do that, or who may simply be so depressed that they lack the clarity do so at that moment. It strikes me a dangerous to ignore the possiblity that those people may be gravely harmed by reading a statement which, while possibly true in some instances, or even common under extraordinary circumstances, is relatively unlikely overall.
>
> I very much doubt that chemist was making a personal attack on you, Jason. I think he was acting out of a concern similar to mine. And I don't think he was attacking you in his post -- I think he was contradicting the information you presented, and he did it with citations to back him up. There really is a difference between the two, you know.
>You put that into words so well.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by jlbl2l on July 28, 2004, at 0:52:08
In reply to Nice post :) » Racer, posted by Sad Panda on July 27, 2004, at 23:24:44
chemists citations may be right, but experience by various millions of people shows otherwise. its foolish if you believe everything you read (pubmed). Same with TV and media. The cure to most dieases is to think "outside the box" something chemist may not do well (reminds me of a vulkin on star trek) - and i can prove that - when I and chemist tried to hypothesis about neurontin's mech. of action, all he could site was studies on pubmed (or other accalimed sourcres) while i on the other hand used VARIOUS sourcres including people and a range of unvonventional and various sources of course pubmed studies also - but i made linkups in my brain - hence - a hypothesis and something called a new idea using my imaginary. And in general, i basically figured out how to augment neurontin "poop out" (with some of chemists help)
But his attitude & manner and unjustifiable attacks are all clearly towards me
IMO that chemist suffers from the following conditions (A) Ego complex B) Insecurity
Also one would wounder someone who is so smart and has SO many credentials is nearly able to spend 75%-85% of his time responding to posts at this message board that put down opinions of others or even try be perfect over anyone elses response. Makes you wonder who is this person and what did/does he do for his life?Bottle line : He attacked my opinion for no reason and it was not even part of the orginal thread and even in a manipulated way tried to doubt my association with the NCF and my skills as a researcher on things not releated to even this board...
Some examples below and feel free to quote the original text.
Oh, and REMEMBER, this has NOTHING to do with the original topic, chemist decided to attack my "OPINION" in the following threads instead, but then claimed that I didnt stay on the main subjects after awhile...well hmmm yeah ... you wanted me to back up my opinion with some sweaping report, right? ha, a major contradiction there, don't you say?
<ASSUMPTION>
including you - have reported hallucinations while forcing themselves to stay awake after taking a sedative-hypnotic. this information is damaging to your credibility in that you have stated that you have actually performed this experiment"<END ASSUMPTION>
COMMENTS : I never said i forced myself to stay awake! Oh yes and now you damage my credibilty with the NCF. Thats OK CALL GAIL KANSKY (president of the NCF) and ask I'f I am a volunteer researcher : the answer will be : "yes, why? who is this?" Plus my research skills rtc... dont even bother questiong my credibilty. I might not have a degree such as yours but that sure doesnt know i know more than you on MANY things. that was a very cheap shot.<MAJOR ASSUMPTIONS, GENERAL INDIRECT ATTACKS)
there is the issue of the one drug that is not FDA approved or available in the U.S., which indicates that you were in another country when you performed that experiment, or that you have obtained the drug illegally and performed the experiment here, in the U.S. in conclusion, this is not a personal attack<END>
COMMENT : LETS SEE, ASSUMING I PERFORMED AN EXPERIMENT, BOUGHT ILLEGALLY, TRAVELED TO ANOTHER COUNTRY AND "EXPERIMENT" ONCE AGAIN, OH BUT HE FORGOT - COULD I LIVE IN ANOTHER COUNTRY? COULD THIS BE A LEGITMATE PRESCRIPTION? I think anyone can get the point by now... chemist was out of line. then he says : this is not a personal attack" I hope Dr. Bob see this really.. I guess chemist was protecting himself from getting his post deleted or banned again for a week maybe with that statemet..heheh(ASSUMPTIONS ACCUSATIONS ATTACKS on CREDIBILITY)
you claim that you ``know quite a bit and have numerous hookups'' because you claim to study autoimmune diseases and ``a lot of other immune related diseases,'' and are a ``volunteer researcher for the national chronic fatigue foundation.'' (this is from your post at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20040724/msgs/370390.html)
given your extensive knowledge and research position, i am confused: you conduct research based on google searches instead of peer-reviewed literature? and you have actually taken all three drugs - 1 of which is not marketed in the U.S., so i assume you obtained it illegally or tried it while abroad - in a manner inconsistant with their proper use? why?COMMENTS : noticing how he says the world claim? ohh geeez, chemist claims he did this and that cause he has a degree. don't believe anyone - this is a bessage board. it isn't fair what your going at all and I hope Dr. Bob reads this. This really sums it up - mean once again claming i did a legal thing! or this or that in a post unrelated to this. what mood was he in that night, forgot to take your meds ?
These are evident enough clearly speuculative and presoumptious and accusations and are very indirect and manipulative towards me, my illtelligence, and who I am afflicated with; my drug habits (assuming i have any) (even when chemist doesnt know where I live) he assumes the US or abraod or illegal.. still none of his biz and ALL SPECULATIVE AND PRESUMPTIOUS.If this is not enough to convience who was right or wrong here I dont know what will. I asnwered what i could to dan originally and it was my opinion that sleeping meds, the "w" kinds CAN COMMONLY cause hallucinations at regular doses mostly when you dont close your eyes and sleep (IE: stay awake) before the sleepiness hits, you can experience hallcinations and i said it was dangerous to drive with these drug and be careful.
Wow I was giving mindblowing wrong info, enough for chemist to start in with me like that?
You decide.
Jason
Posted by Sad Panda on July 28, 2004, at 5:28:55
In reply to Dr. Bob plz read, chemist et. all..., posted by jlbl2l on July 28, 2004, at 0:52:08
I think chemist took exception to you stating that hallucinations on the Z drugs is VERY COMMON when in actual fact it is a RARITY. Clearly VERY COMMON is an EXAGGERATION.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by chemist on July 28, 2004, at 6:55:21
In reply to Dr. Bob plz read, chemist et. all..., posted by jlbl2l on July 28, 2004, at 0:52:08
hello there, chemist here....my comments are delineated by asterisks, below....all the best, chemist
> chemists citations may be right, but experience by various millions of people shows otherwise. its foolish if you believe everything you read (pubmed). Same with TV and media.**** jason, please provide information concerning the millions of people who suffer from hallucinations when taking the ``z drugs,'' in addition to the role the media has played in this conspiracy. thank you. ****
The cure to most dieases is to think "outside the box" something chemist may not do well (reminds me of a vulkin on star trek) - and i can prove that -
**** you can prove i am a fictional character from a television show? or that i cannot think ``outside the box?'' i will settle for either, jason: your choice. thank you.****when I and chemist tried to hypothesis about neurontin's mech. of action, all he could site was studies on pubmed (or other accalimed sourcres) while i on the other hand used VARIOUS sourcres including people and a range of unvonventional and various sources of course pubmed studies also - but i made linkups in my brain - hence - a hypothesis and something called a new idea using my imaginary.
**** jason, your ``imaginary'' is staggering. and, as you note, in addition with ``linkups in [your] brain,'' it is also an excellent chocie of words to describe your scientific acumen and research skills. kudos to you! ****And in general, i basically figured out how to augment neurontin "poop out" (with some of chemists help)
**** i do not think we will be publishing this remarkable and ``imaginary'' breakthrough jointly, jason. thank you, but you are sole author on this research.****
>
> But his attitude & manner and unjustifiable attacks are all clearly towards me
> IMO that chemist suffers from the following conditions (A) Ego complex B) Insecurity
> Also one would wounder someone who is so smart and has SO many credentials is nearly able to spend 75%-85% of his time responding to posts at this message board that put down opinions of others or even try be perfect over anyone elses response. Makes you wonder who is this person and what did/does he do for his life?
***** jason, a few months ago i made it abundantly clear to anyone who cared that i will gladly provide my credentials - in the form of my c.v. - to anybody who requests them. several people have taken up the offer, and on this board as time permits. i am curious how you have arrived at the notion that i spend ``75%-85%'' of my time responding to posts on this board. will i need to secure a temporary restraining order? i welcome your comments, and i eagerly await the receipt of your offer to provide your credentials to the public whom you have helped in so many ways, as you claim in (at least) one of your earlier posts. thank you. *****
>
> Bottle line : He attacked my opinion for no reason and it was not even part of the orginal thread and even in a manipulated way tried to doubt my association with the NCF and my skills as a researcher on things not releated to even this board...*** the ``bottle line,'' jason, has nothing to do with you personally: the bottom line is that you had many, many opportunities to validate your association with the NCF (country not specified, to date) and your research skills, yet you did not. i do look forward to learning more about you, your research, and the NCF. thank you.****
>
> Some examples below and feel free to quote the original text.
>
> Oh, and REMEMBER, this has NOTHING to do with the original topic, chemist decided to attack my "OPINION" in the following threads instead, but then claimed that I didnt stay on the main subjects after awhile...well hmmm yeah ... you wanted me to back up my opinion with some sweaping report, right? ha, a major contradiction there, don't you say?**** no, jason, i was attempting to take a very sweeping statement that is truly inaccurate and provide some credible evidence. again, please do provide references to the millions of people who have experienced hallucinations while taking the ``z drugs.'' thank you ****
>
>
> <ASSUMPTION>
> including you - have reported hallucinations while forcing themselves to stay awake after taking a sedative-hypnotic. this information is damaging to your credibility in that you have stated that you have actually performed this experiment"<END ASSUMPTION>
>
>
> COMMENTS : I never said i forced myself to stay awake!**** you wrote it, jason: i never claimed you said it. please reread your earlier post. thank you. ****
Oh yes and now you damage my credibilty with the NCF. Thats OK CALL GAIL KANSKY (president of the NCF) and ask I'f I am a volunteer researcher : the answer will be : "yes, why? who is this?" Plus my research skills rtc... dont even bother questiong my credibilty. I might not have a degree such as yours but that sure doesnt know i know more than you on MANY things. that was a very cheap shot.
*** jason, i need not question your credibility in any regard: you have quite effectively provided the audience with the means to do so in this and other posts. it is very clear to me just how credible your assertions and research skills truly are. thank you.****
>
>
>
> <MAJOR ASSUMPTIONS, GENERAL INDIRECT ATTACKS)
> there is the issue of the one drug that is not FDA approved or available in the U.S., which indicates that you were in another country when you performed that experiment, or that you have obtained the drug illegally and performed the experiment here, in the U.S. in conclusion, this is not a personal attack<END>
>
>
> COMMENT : LETS SEE, ASSUMING I PERFORMED AN EXPERIMENT, BOUGHT ILLEGALLY, TRAVELED TO ANOTHER COUNTRY AND "EXPERIMENT" ONCE AGAIN, OH BUT HE FORGOT - COULD I LIVE IN ANOTHER COUNTRY? COULD THIS BE A LEGITMATE PRESCRIPTION? I think anyone can get the point by now... chemist was out of line. then he says : this is not a personal attack" I hope Dr. Bob see this really.. I guess chemist was protecting himself from getting his post deleted or banned again for a week maybe with that statemet..heheh
>
**** no, jason, you had several opportunities to enlighten us with your citizenship, and did not. please feel free to do so. thank you. ****
>
>
>
>
> (ASSUMPTIONS ACCUSATIONS ATTACKS on CREDIBILITY)
> you claim that you ``know quite a bit and have numerous hookups'' because you claim to study autoimmune diseases and ``a lot of other immune related diseases,'' and are a ``volunteer researcher for the national chronic fatigue foundation.'' (this is from your post at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20040724/msgs/370390.html)
> given your extensive knowledge and research position, i am confused: you conduct research based on google searches instead of peer-reviewed literature? and you have actually taken all three drugs - 1 of which is not marketed in the U.S., so i assume you obtained it illegally or tried it while abroad - in a manner inconsistant with their proper use? why?
>
> COMMENTS : noticing how he says the world claim? ohh geeez, chemist claims he did this and that cause he has a degree. don't believe anyone - this is a bessage board. it isn't fair what your going at all and I hope Dr. Bob reads this. This really sums it up - mean once again claming i did a legal thing! or this or that in a post unrelated to this. what mood was he in that night, forgot to take your meds ?**** jason, the above is a personal attack against me. please rephrase and resubmit. thank you. *****
>
>
> These are evident enough clearly speuculative and presoumptious and accusations and are very indirect and manipulative towards me, my illtelligence, and who I am afflicated with; my drug habits (assuming i have any) (even when chemist doesnt know where I live) he assumes the US or abraod or illegal.. still none of his biz and ALL SPECULATIVE AND PRESUMPTIOUS.**** you made it my (and everyone else's) ``biz'' on a public post. and yet there remains the mystery. please provide some evidence. thank you *****
>
> If this is not enough to convience who was right or wrong here I dont know what will. I asnwered what i could to dan originally and it was my opinion that sleeping meds, the "w" kinds CAN COMMONLY cause hallucinations at regular doses mostly when you dont close your eyes and sleep (IE: stay awake) before the sleepiness hits, you can experience hallcinations and i said it was dangerous to drive with these drug and be careful.
>
> Wow I was giving mindblowing wrong info, enough for chemist to start in with me like that?
>
> You decide.
> Jason
>
*** bye, jason. thank you*****
Posted by Racer on July 28, 2004, at 10:05:53
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob plz read, chemist et. all... » jlbl2l, posted by chemist on July 28, 2004, at 6:55:21
For anyone who reads this with his or her critical reasoning cap on, this post alone answers any questions about credibility in this thread. Some of us really appreciate your generosity in sharing knowledge.
Heheheh, then again, the post you are responding to was effective in convincing me where the merit truly lies, even without your profoundly even handed response.
Thank you for being a valuable asset here.
Posted by chemist on July 28, 2004, at 14:43:16
In reply to Pearls before swine » chemist, posted by Racer on July 28, 2004, at 10:05:53
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 28, 2004, at 14:46:26
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob plz read, chemist et. all... » jlbl2l, posted by chemist on July 28, 2004, at 6:55:21
> The cure to most dieases is to think "outside the box" something chemist may not do well (reminds me of a vulkin on star trek)
>
> IMO that chemist suffers from the following conditions (A) Ego complex B) Insecurity
>
> jlbl2l> your ``imaginary'' is staggering.
>
> i need not question your credibility in any regard: you have quite effectively provided the audience with the means to do so in this and other posts. it is very clear to me just how credible your assertions and research skills truly are. thank you.
>
> chemistPlease don't be sarcastic, jump to conclusions about others, or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Sharing something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by chemist on July 28, 2004, at 14:51:05
In reply to Re: please be civil » jlbl2l » chemist, posted by Dr. Bob on July 28, 2004, at 14:46:26
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 29, 2004, at 16:58:51
In reply to will do, thank you Dr. Bob... (nm) » Dr. Bob, posted by chemist on July 28, 2004, at 14:51:05
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.