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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by manowar on January 24, 2002, at 16:56:41
In reply to Too much REM sleep causes depression? » manowar, posted by IsoM on January 19, 2002, at 17:43:41
> Hey, Tim, I want to hear more on that, where you heard it from, any links, etc. I've seemed to have too much REM sleep & not enough deep sleep. Maybe longer use of adrafinil will help with deep sleep, but I'd like to know more from you.
>
> I have read that mild sleep deprivation helps depression but bounces back once the depressed person gets a good sleep again.Hello again IsoM,
I found a great article today on WebMD about REM sleep and depression:
Dreams May Hold Key to Beating Depression
Divorced and Blue? When Your Ex Plays Minor Dream Role, You're Healing By Jeanie Davis
WebMD Medical News
Jan. 18, 2002 -- When a marriage hits the skids, most people get depressed. But why do some recover from divorce -- get on with their lives -- while others languish, full of depression and regret?
Their dreams may hold clues that will help their recovery, says Rosalind Cartwright, PhD, chairman of psychology at Rush University and director of the Sleep Disorder Service at Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke's Medical Center in Chicago.
Since the 1960s, Cartwright has studied dreams to better understand their purpose. Today, most researchers think dreams are "nonsense, nothing more than flotsam and jetsam floating through your mind at night," she tells WebMD. Only recently, she's come to realize that "dreams are our mood regulators."
"Most people, if they go to bed angry, upset, anxious, blue, down, having a negative mood, they feel better in the morning," Cartwright tells WebMD. "Not the depressed; they feel worse. In the morning, they're at their lowest point. Something wrong has happened overnight. They haven't mood regulated, they've gotten worse."
Cartwright chose marital separation -- certainly an emotional, life-altering event -- to test her theory. Each volunteer was "at the point that they have decided to break up the marriage," she says. Her NIH-funded study is in its sixth year.
She has analyzed dreams of 12 depressed volunteers as well as others who were not depressed. She did not tell any volunteer whether they had scored as "depressed" or not. "I didn't want them to get treatment," she tells WebMD. "I wanted to see how they got over it on their own, because most people do."
Each volunteer slept in the Rush Sleep Disorders Center for several two-night sessions over a five-month period. During those nights, they were connected to an EEG to measure brain waves and an EOG to track eye movement indicating periods of rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, when dreaming occurs.
Normally, the first period of REM sleep involves "sparse" eye movement, says Cartwright.Depressed people typically have their first REM-dream sleep earlier in the night than non-depressed people, says Cartwright. "The first dream comes too early, and it's much too active in terms of eye movement. Their eyes are going off like fireworks, like they're watching a ping pong game, really rapid."
Cartwright and colleagues woke up each volunteer five minutes into the REM/dream period, to ask about their dream. She also saw the volunteers in her office at the beginning, middle, and end of the study period to see how they were doing. None of the volunteers received any psychotherapy or drugs during the study.
During the five months, nine of the 12 depressed people improved significantly enough that they no longer tested as depressed.
The role of the ex-spouse in the dreams signified much about this healing process, she says.The ex-spouse was present in everyone's dreams at first, along with a lot of negative feelings, anger, unhappiness, missing them, she says.
But toward the end of the study, it was clear that those getting over the depression had put the ex-spouse at a distance.
"The ex-spouse 'character' was there," says Cartwright, "but in a way that showed they were essentially unhooked from the relationship. It was no a longer reference point for how they felt about themselves or how they felt about a new person in their lives. It was irrelevant."
"It was more like, 'Thank goodness I don't have to pay attention to what he says anymore. I'm very independent, I don't have to ask his permission, don't have to worry about what he's doing. If I'm dating, I don't have to worry what he thinks about it,'" she says. "It's not that they had forgotten the person, but were enjoying reclaiming who they were, enjoying a sense of liberty."
Those who were depressed were still having negative, anxious dreams about the ex-spouse, she says.
The sheer action of waking people up during anxious dreams helped get them past the depression, Cartwright tells WebMD.
"It stops an abnormal process from continuing," she says. "Depressed people don't solve problems during their dreams, like other people do, they pile up their troubles, and the last dream of the night is the worst. They wake up in a worse mood if you let them sleep through those dreams. But if you interrupt them, they normalize and feel better in the morning."
Try it at home, Cartwright says.
With a little help from some friends, she's invented what she calls a "home dream recorder." It's not on the market just yet, and won't be until she has published her study results.
The home dream recorder has an EOG monitor and a movement monitor, so it's clear whether the person is awake or asleep. "If they're still and their eyes are moving, they're probably dreaming," she says. An alarm is programmed to go off when the EOG shows eyes are moving for five minutes. The person speaks their dream into a voice-activated tape recorder, then the equipment resets automatically. Next time REM sleep begins, the recorder activates again.
"It's the do-it-yourself approach," she says.
But it's not for everyone, Cartwright tells WebMD. "People with a history of serious depression, childhood abuse, no good love relationships, need some help rebuilding."
Eric Nofzinger, MD, is a sleep disorders specialist and associate professor of psychiatry with the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine. He has conducted functional brain imaging studies during REM sleep, and those studies too have shown that the "emotion areas" of the brain are indeed very active in the dreams of people who are depressed. He has followed Cartwright's work for a number of years.
"There is merit to her theory," Nofzinger tells WebMD. "The work she has done is very important, novel, and really is some of the only work that I know of that is trying to understand what is happening with our emotional character when we're asleep at night."
But other research has shown that while sleep-depriving a depressed person improves their mood, it's only in the short term, he says. "The effects are not long lasting, they generally reverse after the second or third day of sleep deprivation."
"I don't think anybody is at the point of saying that sleep deprivation or altering dreams is the best thing in the long-term treatment of depression," says Nofzinger. "There are a lot of things that do work, like medication and psychotherapy, and those are very well validated as the mainstay of treatment for depression. I see her work as an interesting theory that requires validation."
Posted by Jerry Ryan on August 19, 2002, at 4:54:19
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings » manowar, posted by Rick on January 18, 2002, at 2:12:45
Hey dude. i take 1.5mg of Klonipin each day. If I was not on Klonipin (or some other benzo) I would be paranoid, agitated and occasionally violent. The benzos have been a godsend to me. i refused to take them for years, against my Dr.s advice, not wanting to take DRUGS! But now I am much more mellow, drink less beer and have become a human being again. I am a person with suicidal and homicidal tenencies. This particular med has reduced it and kept me out ouf the nuthouse or prison. I am an electrical engineer with a 150 IQ. I have discussed this with several others that have similar IQ's. When your IQ exceeds a certain level, you begin to see movies within your mind. They can become a source of torment. Everything is a picture. Words are trivial. But the Klonipin makes the incessant torment tolerable. Just my thoughts. Thanks for your thread.
PS why are you guys so paranoid. It took me some time to register. What is the deal. I have a packet sniffer on my WAN interface and could most likely hack you given enough time. It is not profitable though. Please relax. I like this place.
\
The Master of Disaster,Jerry Ryan
(845) 566-4189 if anyone needs a sympathetic ear. I understand.
Posted by Rick on August 20, 2002, at 12:01:57
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings » Rick, posted by Jerry Ryan on August 19, 2002, at 4:54:19
> Hey dude. i take 1.5mg of Klonipin each day. If I was not on Klonipin (or some other benzo) I would be paranoid, agitated and occasionally violent. The benzos have been a godsend to me. i refused to take them for years, against my Dr.s advice, not wanting to take DRUGS! But now I am much more mellow, drink less beer and have become a human being again. I am a person with suicidal and homicidal tenencies. This particular med has reduced it and kept me out ouf the nuthouse or prison. I am an electrical engineer with a 150 IQ. I have discussed this with several others that have similar IQ's. When your IQ exceeds a certain level, you begin to see movies within your mind. They can become a source of torment. Everything is a picture. Words are trivial. But the Klonipin makes the incessant torment tolerable. Just my thoughts. Thanks for your thread.
>
> PS why are you guys so paranoid. It took me some time to register. What is the deal. I have a packet sniffer on my WAN interface and could most likely hack you given enough time. It is not profitable though. Please relax. I like this place.
> \
> The Master of Disaster,
>
> Jerry Ryan
> (845) 566-4189 if anyone needs a sympathetic ear. I understand.Great to hear your success story. (I haven't been visiting P-B lately because I've been super-busy, but I received an auto-notification of your update to this thread.) Thanks for sharing this!
A few questions, and I'm especially interested in your replies to the first two: How long have you been taking the Klonopin? Have you noticed any memory efects or other cognitive efects? Do you take it all at once or multiple dosing? Are you taking any other psychotropics?
Rick
Posted by MomO3 on August 20, 2002, at 22:25:54
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings » Rick, posted by Jerry Ryan on August 19, 2002, at 4:54:19
What do you mean you begin to "see movies with your mind"?
I have a high IQ as well, and I have always figured that highly intelligent people understand too much for their own good. In highschool, I set out on a mission to lower my IQ by killing brain cells with alcohol. I honestly hoped it would make me happier to dumb down a little bit.
> Hey dude. i take 1.5mg of Klonipin each day. If I was not on Klonipin (or some other benzo) I would be paranoid, agitated and occasionally violent. The benzos have been a godsend to me. i refused to take them for years, against my Dr.s advice, not wanting to take DRUGS! But now I am much more mellow, drink less beer and have become a human being again. I am a person with suicidal and homicidal tenencies. This particular med has reduced it and kept me out ouf the nuthouse or prison. I am an electrical engineer with a 150 IQ. I have discussed this with several others that have similar IQ's. When your IQ exceeds a certain level, you begin to see movies within your mind. They can become a source of torment. Everything is a picture. Words are trivial. But the Klonipin makes the incessant torment tolerable. Just my thoughts. Thanks for your thread.
>
> PS why are you guys so paranoid. It took me some time to register. What is the deal. I have a packet sniffer on my WAN interface and could most likely hack you given enough time. It is not profitable though. Please relax. I like this place.
> \
> The Master of Disaster,
>
> Jerry Ryan
> (845) 566-4189 if anyone needs a sympathetic ear. I understand.
Posted by Jerry Ryan on August 21, 2002, at 4:16:45
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings » Jerry Ryan, posted by Rick on August 20, 2002, at 12:01:57
Hey Rick, thank you for the followup. I used to take Risperidol, Lithium, Paxil, Celexia. I have for the past two years relinquished the psych doctor and just go to my regular MD. Those other meds had one effect: Sexual dysfuncion. Now I am able to enjoy that aspect of my life again, thank God!. I take my Klonipin in evenly spaced dosages but sometimes forget to take the afternoon pill due to being busy. If I do that for a few days, I can feel a difference. I have been on benzos for 8 years. They work for me. I do not care about the stigma that is assigned to them. I have been taking Corgard for blood pressure reduction for 30 years. It is a beta blocker, non addictive. I once negelected to renew a script for them and after three days was ready for the ER. Worse than benzo withdrawl. I guess it is all 'good in the hood'. Stay mellow. I take it one millisecond at a time and enjoy life to the fullest. Just ask the nurse who is now fast asleep here! He he.
Jerry
Posted by Jerry Ryan on August 21, 2002, at 4:29:42
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings » Jerry Ryan, posted by MomO3 on August 20, 2002, at 22:25:54
Hey, MOM03. I cannot explain the situation other than everything is a picture and there are four frames going on at once in my head if I am not occupied. For example, now I am typing this and that is all I see. When I lie down. The flicks start. Maybe it is due to being somewhat manic. But I have discussed this with several people and they have concurred with my own situation. At one time, approximately 8 years ago in Stamford CT. I could not sleep for a week. I had to go to the computer room and lie on the floor so I would not awake my girl. The movies were so vivid. One had fire, one had Nazi soldiers in formation goose-stepping, one had a sandy beach with waves (Zuma in Cali, actually) and one had a circuit diagram that I was designing at the time. Not very conducive to sleep!
Hope it makes sense. Thanks for the response.
Jerry
Posted by Mr.Scott on August 21, 2002, at 11:43:19
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings, posted by Jerry Ryan on August 21, 2002, at 4:29:42
Just eve's dropping here, but it sounds almost like a strange seizure disorder in a certain part of the brain...
Posted by utopizen on August 23, 2002, at 14:43:14
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings, posted by Jerry Ryan on August 21, 2002, at 4:16:45
I like talking!!!
Posted by Alara on November 11, 2002, at 23:43:02
In reply to Re: Too much REM sleep causes depression?, posted by manowar on January 24, 2002, at 16:56:41
Manowar, sorry to dredge this post up again but the findings of this study are very interesting.I have always had problems with my sleep cycle. Even when I was a child, I'd experienced a delayed sleep gateway (tossing and turning for hours before finally getting to sleep) and would then fall into a very intense sleep state. Once asleep, I could sleep through an earthquake! When I'd wake up I'd often recall a lot of dreams and would often feel as though the dreams had exhausted me,making sleep a far from refreshing experience. Even then, I struggled with getting out of bed to go to school and would always sleep in until lunchtime on the weekends (until my father forced me out of bed)! On one or two occasions my father caught me asleep in another room after sleepwalking to the bathroom. lol.
As an adult my sleeping crisis has become progressively worse. Upon entering the workforce I would toss and turn for weeks without sleeping and then suddenly the insomnia pattern would be broken and I'd get some reprieve for a few weeks or so. This on-off-on-off sleeping pattern continued for many years until the age of 26, when I got glandular fever and all the problems with depression started.
At 32, all I want to do is sleep. This has been going on for a couple of years and is getting ridiculous. As I am not working at the moment, I have the luxury of sleeping as much as I want. I wake up many times during the night, usually after dreaming and often can not go back to sleep until the alarm goes off. (Of course I just throw a pillow at the stupid alarm and go back into the land of the nod. It's almost as though there's a series of dreams which must be completed before I can surface into the day. Know what I mean??) I am getting very close to getting a full-time job and need to think about an antidepressant medication which may help with my sleep cycle. Sleep really seems to be the key with my mood, anxiety levels, and ability to tolerate stress in life.
I can never sleep the night before work or an interview because of the anxiety and this really undermines my performance and confidence the next day. Paradoxically, I sleep like a log (as a way of turning off the anxiety) once I have `escaped' from the stressful situation, knowing that I have nothing on the next day.
I cannot tolerate the typical 8 hours a night sleep regime as it leaves me feeling tired and drained. I suspect that this is because i am waking up from a lot of dreams..Currently I need 13 hours a night in order to feel refreshed. I currently get a lot of this sleep during the day as I find it harder to sleep at night. Obviously I cannot cope with a full-time job with these sleep requirements so I must do something about it!Sorry, this is a long post and I don't know whether anyone can help. Just thought that it didn't hurt to ask. :-)
Alara
Posted by Rick on November 12, 2002, at 15:28:25
In reply to Sleep Cycles and Depression, posted by Alara on November 11, 2002, at 23:43:02
Just a few random thoughts about what you're dealing with...
There are SOOO many factors that could be contributing here (and I don't claim to know which are the most likely). This obviously includes some basic psychiatric components, but could also relate to meds, physical or hormonal issues ranging from obstructive sleep apnea to periodic limb movements to eating habits/nutritional deficiencies to blood sugar abnormalities and on and on.
If you haven't been to a sleep clinic, this is clearly an advisable first step. Also, if your antidepressant treatment was prescribed by a GP, you should see a psychiatrist -- preferably one who does a lot of work in sleep disorders. And if you haven't already done so, do a net search to find one of the many, highly active, sleep disorder info+discussion sites on the web. They really have a lot of info, ideas and shared experiences relating to both physical and psychiatric causes (including depression and anxiety).
It could be that whatever meds you're taking and/or the dosages/dosing schedules are making the sleep-related problem worse.
Before I started taking Klonopin (1 mg, all in the a.m.) and dropped from 220 to 180 pounds, my sleep pattern had a lot in common with yours, although to a lesser degree. I would also experience spontaneous multi-week "holidays" where the symptoms would improve temporarily. And I also had a hell of a time getting to sleep when anticipating a next-day stressor like an interview or a presentation. (Daily morning Klonopin has been a godsend in getting rid of most of this kind of insomnia-inducing anticipatory anxiety.) I don't know what proportion of my sleep improvement is due to the long-lasting effects of the Klonopin and how much is due to the weight loss that seems to have resolved my sleep apnea. (But again, I'm sure the Klonopin is a major contributor. The fact that it allowed me to get to sleep MUCH faster and sleep better even before I started losing weight is further evidence.)
While lots of people seem to relish their dreams, I find that the more I dream, and the more intense they are, the more tired I'll feel the next day, and the more prone to feeling mentally down or more susceptible to anxiety (athough still nowhere as bad as before I started taking Klonopin). That sounds at least somewhat similar to your experence. I've long found that the worst sleep and the "noisiest" and weirdest dreaming usually happens if I wake up, say, 90 minutes before the alarm is set to go off, and then go back to sleep. This is especially true if the early-awakening lasts for more than just a few minutes. Even though I know it's important to get enough sleep, I truly feel better the rest of the day by just hopping out of bed after waking up an hour or two early, rather than going back to sleep and waiting for the alarm.
Although it *did* cause insomnia, I always seemed to wake up refreshed when I was on Nardil. I'm guessing that's because it completely surpressed any dreaming (or perhaps more acurately, *recall* of any dreaming).
Re the daytime sleepiness, have you considered a stimulant? I'm partial to Provigil because it's gentler than the traditional stims, few side effects, virtual lack of abuse potential, and surprisingly doesn't affect the ability to sleep when you WANT to (after the first 2-7 days, anyway).
Again, I don't know what AD you're using, but if you do use a daytime stim maybe you could switch to a more sedating AD like Serzone or Remeron, which would help you get to sleep at night after the Provigil or other stim wears off. That, along with Klonopin, could help you get to sleep quicker, thus allowing you to get up earlier without as much difficulty.
Fyi, I'm now taking 1 mg Klonopin, 300 mg Serzone, and 100 mg Provigil, all first thing in the a.m. (although in the early weeks/months it might be better to take the former two in divided doses, especially Serzone). I've also been on Klonopin alone, and Klonopin & Provigil without the Serzone (but I have non-depressive social anxiety). With all three regimens, getting to sleep is so much easier than it was for me "pre-meds," 90% of the time. The difference is that on K alone, I'm more prone to waking early, but am almost always bright and alert when I *do* get up (might be a different story with nighttime dosing of K, which isn't recommended for more than a few weeks duration). When I add the other meds, I still get to sleep easily, but rarely wake up early. The flip side, though, is that it's harder - sometimes *a lot* -- to get up, and when I do, I'm pretty groggy. But that half-asleep feeling goes away pretty quickly, especially after I take my morning meds. The other difference is that, with the K alone, *sometimes* I'll suddenly start getting kind of fatigued, especially late afternoon. When I'm taking Provigil with it, that happens only once or twice a month.
Rick
>
> Manowar, sorry to dredge this post up again but the findings of this study are very interesting.
>
> I have always had problems with my sleep cycle. Even when I was a child, I'd experienced a delayed sleep gateway (tossing and turning for hours before finally getting to sleep) and would then fall into a very intense sleep state. Once asleep, I could sleep through an earthquake! When I'd wake up I'd often recall a lot of dreams and would often feel as though the dreams had exhausted me,making sleep a far from refreshing experience. Even then, I struggled with getting out of bed to go to school and would always sleep in until lunchtime on the weekends (until my father forced me out of bed)! On one or two occasions my father caught me asleep in another room after sleepwalking to the bathroom. lol.
>
> As an adult my sleeping crisis has become progressively worse. Upon entering the workforce I would toss and turn for weeks without sleeping and then suddenly the insomnia pattern would be broken and I'd get some reprieve for a few weeks or so. This on-off-on-off sleeping pattern continued for many years until the age of 26, when I got glandular fever and all the problems with depression started.
>
> At 32, all I want to do is sleep. This has been going on for a couple of years and is getting ridiculous. As I am not working at the moment, I have the luxury of sleeping as much as I want. I wake up many times during the night, usually after dreaming and often can not go back to sleep until the alarm goes off. (Of course I just throw a pillow at the stupid alarm and go back into the land of the nod. It's almost as though there's a series of dreams which must be completed before I can surface into the day. Know what I mean??) I am getting very close to getting a full-time job and need to think about an antidepressant medication which may help with my sleep cycle. Sleep really seems to be the key with my mood, anxiety levels, and ability to tolerate stress in life.
>
> I can never sleep the night before work or an interview because of the anxiety and this really undermines my performance and confidence the next day. Paradoxically, I sleep like a log (as a way of turning off the anxiety) once I have `escaped' from the stressful situation, knowing that I have nothing on the next day.
>
> I cannot tolerate the typical 8 hours a night sleep regime as it leaves me feeling tired and drained. I suspect that this is because i am waking up from a lot of dreams..Currently I need 13 hours a night in order to feel refreshed. I currently get a lot of this sleep during the day as I find it harder to sleep at night. Obviously I cannot cope with a full-time job with these sleep requirements so I must do something about it!
>
> Sorry, this is a long post and I don't know whether anyone can help. Just thought that it didn't hurt to ask. :-)
>
> Alara
Posted by Alara on November 12, 2002, at 19:46:12
In reply to Re: Sleep Cycles and Depression » Alara, posted by Rick on November 12, 2002, at 15:28:25
> Just a few random thoughts about what you're dealing with...
>
> There are SOOO many factors that could be contributing here (and I don't claim to know which are the most likely). This obviously includes some basic psychiatric components, but could also relate to meds, physical or hormonal issues ranging from obstructive sleep apnea to periodic limb movements to eating habits/nutritional deficiencies to blood sugar abnormalities and on and on.
>
> If you haven't been to a sleep clinic, this is clearly an advisable first step. Also, if your antidepressant treatment was prescribed by a GP, you should see a psychiatrist -- preferably one who does a lot of work in sleep disorders. And if you haven't already done so, do a net search to find one of the many, highly active, sleep disorder info+discussion sites on the web. They really have a lot of info, ideas and shared experiences relating to both physical and psychiatric causes (including depression and anxiety).
>>>>>Thanks Rick. I'm afraid that I need to rely on my own research and a GP at this point as I can't afford a psychiatrist or sleep clinic. (Am hoping to be able to afford medical insurance once I secure a job, so I'll be able to follow this advice further down the track.)
> It could be that whatever meds you're taking and/or the dosages/dosing schedules are making the sleep-related problem worse.
>
> Before I started taking Klonopin (1 mg, all in the a.m.) and dropped from 220 to 180 pounds, my sleep pattern had a lot in common with yours, although to a lesser degree. I would also experience spontaneous multi-week "holidays" where the symptoms would improve temporarily. And I also had a hell of a time getting to sleep when anticipating a next-day stressor like an interview or a presentation. (Daily morning Klonopin has been a godsend in getting rid of most of this kind of insomnia-inducing anticipatory anxiety.) I don't know what proportion of my sleep improvement is due to the long-lasting effects of the Klonopin and how much is due to the weight loss that seems to have resolved my sleep apnea. (But again, I'm sure the Klonopin is a major contributor. The fact that it allowed me to get to sleep MUCH faster and sleep better even before I started losing weight is further evidence.)
>
>>>>>Re Sleep Apnea: Actually I have been wondering about the possibility of sleep apnea more and more lately. My boyfriend says that I snore and I sometimes wake myself up with a single, loud snore. I also feel very groggy (almost as though there has been a lack of oxygen to the brain) upon waking and it takes me a long time to surface. I usually wake up with a stuffy nose too. I am about 10-15 lbs overweight and am going to try losing the excess pounds in case this is the problem. The sleeping problems have definitely got worse since I put on the weight.
>>>>Rick, do you have any experience with Xanax? It seems to help me to fall asleep initially but I wake up later, drifting in and out of the exhausting dream cycle. I have social anxiety too and will ask my GP about Klonopin. (Maybe Klonopin has a longer half life and so promotes more restful sleep??? It would be interesting to find out.)
> While lots of people seem to relish their dreams, I find that the more I dream, and the more intense they are, the more tired I'll feel the next day, and the more prone to feeling mentally down or more susceptible to anxiety (athough still nowhere as bad as before I started taking Klonopin). That sounds at least somewhat similar to your experence. I've long found that the worst sleep and the "noisiest" and weirdest dreaming usually happens if I wake up, say, 90 minutes before the alarm is set to go off, and then go back to sleep. This is especially true if the early-awakening lasts for more than just a few minutes. Even though I know it's important to get enough sleep, I truly feel better the rest of the day by just hopping out of bed after waking up an hour or two early, rather than going back to sleep and waiting for the alarm.
>>>>>Interesting! Your `noisy' dreaming sounds just like mine. The more `noisy' or `active' my dreams, the more emotionally drained (and hence physically tired) I feel the next day. This always makes me emotionally fragile and prone to anxiety and stress.
> Although it *did* cause insomnia, I always seemed to wake up refreshed when I was on Nardil. I'm guessing that's because it completely surpressed any dreaming (or perhaps more acurately, *recall* of any dreaming).
>Mmmm...You didn't find that Nardil caused weight gain? This is the main complaint re this AD that I've noticed in the forums.
> Re the daytime sleepiness, have you considered a stimulant? I'm partial to Provigil because it's gentler than the traditional stims, few side effects, virtual lack of abuse potential, and surprisingly doesn't affect the ability to sleep when you WANT to (after the first 2-7 days, anyway).
>>>>The only stimulant I've tried is caffeine. lol. I seriously need to drink 2 cups of coffee before leaving the house and then another two once arriving at work. (This, of course, raises the eyebrows of colleagues, who can't help wondering about the chain coffee drinking but I can't seem to get myself into gear without the extra norepinephrine...) Unfortunately the coffee makes me highly anxious and I can't drink it after midday due to the insomnia it causes. I don't understand anything about stimulants. Do they act directly on the CNS, thereby making anxiety worse? I'm in a bit of a bind because I need to stay awake during the day and yet I can't cope with anxiety.
> Again, I don't know what AD you're using, but if you do use a daytime stim maybe you could switch to a more sedating AD like Serzone or Remeron, which would help you get to sleep at night after the Provigil or other stim wears off. That, along with Klonopin, could help you get to sleep quicker, thus allowing you to get up earlier without as much difficulty.
>
>>>I have been taking St Johns Wort for around 1 month and my energy levels have improved slightly since coming off Effexor. Am still undecided about whether or not to give it another month or to switch to a prescription AD. Do you prefer Serzone or Remeron? Which do you feel is more effective against your social anxiety?
> Fyi, I'm now taking 1 mg Klonopin, 300 mg Serzone, and 100 mg Provigil, all first thing in the a.m. (although in the early weeks/months it might be better to take the former two in divided doses, especially Serzone). I've also been on Klonopin alone, and Klonopin & Provigil without the Serzone (but I have non-depressive social anxiety). With all three regimens, getting to sleep is so much easier than it was for me "pre-meds," 90% of the time. The difference is that on K alone, I'm more prone to waking early, but am almost always bright and alert when I *do* get up (might be a different story with nighttime dosing of K, which isn't recommended for more than a few weeks duration). When I add the other meds, I still get to sleep easily, but rarely wake up early. The flip side, though, is that it's harder - sometimes *a lot* -- to get up, and when I do, I'm pretty groggy. But that half-asleep feeling goes away pretty quickly, especially after I take my morning meds. The other difference is that, with the K alone, *sometimes* I'll suddenly start getting kind of fatigued, especially late afternoon. When I'm taking Provigil with it, that happens only once or twice a month.
>
> Rick
>
>>>>Rick, thanks for your post. Sorry about the thousand questions!!!Alara
Posted by Rick on November 13, 2002, at 21:15:35
In reply to Re: Sleep Apnea and Stims » Rick, posted by Alara on November 12, 2002, at 19:46:12
>Re Sleep Apnea: Actually I have been wondering about the possibility of sleep apnea more and more lately. My boyfriend says that I snore and I sometimes wake myself up with a single, loud snore.
I think if it were apnea he'd notice you briefly gasping for air. But I'm by *no* means sure about this. Check the web for info on apnea symptoms.
>>I also feel very groggy (almost as though there has been a lack of oxygen to the brain) upon waking and it takes me a long time to surface. I usually wake up with a stuffy nose too.
Maybe allergies are involved here, to indoor irritants like invisible dust mites (they're everywhere, unless you clean like Martha Stewart).
If you haven't already, you should mention the stuffy nose to your GP.> Rick, do you have any experience with Xanax? It seems to help me to fall asleep initially but I wake up later, drifting in and out of the exhausting dream cycle. I have social anxiety too and will ask my GP about Klonopin. (Maybe Klonopin has a longer half life and so promotes more restful sleep??? It would be interesting to find out.)
I use Xanax once every couple months when I just can't get to sleep. Everyone's different, but for me low-dose Klonopin has great, smooth, long-lasting anti-anxiety effects, while Xanax just puts me to sleep. I tried it for social anxiety before Klonopin, and it only helped a little, just by making me feel doped up. When I tried Klonopin, it was a world of difference both in daytime tolerability and most importantly in fighting social anxiety. And yes, the longer half-life is a big advantage over Xanax as well...Klonopin is so smooth, I usually don't feel *anything* physically (after the first week or two). And mentally I feel like myself, but with most of the horrendous social anxiety gone.
(I should point out that I was taking Xanax on an as-needed basis, while I've always taken Klonopin daily.)Getting back to sleep apnea or other respiratory disorders, note that benzos and SSRI's can actually worsen this. That's one reason I set a rule for myself when I started Klonopin: Avoid taking any after 4 p.m. -- although, of course, there will be some in my body 24/7 due to the long half-life. Early on, I did sometimes feel the need to take a little extra before nighttime social events. I guess the reason that this no longer seems necessary is that -- as at least one discontinuation study documents -- some of the social anxiety benefits of Klonopin tend to become ingrained after awhile. I assume that also explains why I only need half as much K as I used to take.
> > Although it *did* cause insomnia, I always seemed to wake up refreshed when I was on Nardil. I'm guessing that's because it completely surpressed any dreaming (or perhaps more acurately, *recall* of any dreaming).
> Mmmm...You didn't find that Nardil caused weight gain? This is the main complaint re this AD that I've noticed in the forums.
Yes, I don't know how I managed to begin my first successful diet since sixth grade while I was taking Nardil! The weight gain may be an issue for most people (and women seem extra-susceptible for some reason), but it's not a given -- at least judging from the posts of other Babblers. Of course, I only took Nardil for about four weeks, and had just about every other side efect imaginable, although some might have gone away eventually with continued use. In fact, maybe Nardil helped me lose weight because it produced such severe orthostatic hypotension that I would fall down before I could make it to the refrigerator.
>The only stimulant I've tried is caffeine. lol. I seriously need to drink 2 cups of coffee before leaving the house and then another two once arriving at work. (This, of course, raises the eyebrows of colleagues, who can't help wondering about the chain coffee drinking but I can't seem to get myself into gear without the extra norepinephrine...) Unfortunately the coffee makes me highly anxious and I can't drink it after midday due to the insomnia it causes. I don't understand anything about stimulants. Do they act directly on the CNS, thereby making anxiety worse? I'm in a bit of a bind because I need to stay awake during the day and yet I can't cope with anxiety.
Yes, the stims all work through the CNS, but that translates to effects in other parts of the body too (e.g., increased heart rate). The traditional, amphetamine-based stimulants like Ritalin, Dexedrine,and Adderall do have a tendency to increase anxiety, although for people with ADD they may have a calming effect. Provigil works differently, and has a far lower incidence of anxiety or nervousness, especially at lower doses. Taken in tandem with Klonopin (or Klonopin+Serzone), in proper doses, I find Provigil actually enhances the anti-anxiety benefits by increasing assertiveness, enthusiasm and sociability. Unfortunately, Provigil is extremely pricey (although I think they have some financial assistance programs -- see www.provigil.com). As for the caffeine, I'd wager that taking Klonopin would counter caffeines's undesirable anxiety effect more than it would counter the desired wakefulness effect.
> >>>I have been taking St Johns Wort for around 1 month and my energy levels have improved slightly since coming off Effexor. Am still undecided about whether or not to give it another month or to switch to a prescription AD. Do you prefer Serzone or Remeron? Which do you feel is more effective against your social anxiety?I've never taken Remeron. Serzone has had mixed reviews (from high praise to "zero benefit") for social anxiety, but anecdotal evidence and open studies show more usefulness for Serzone than for Remeron. It's definitely helpful for me, but the effects took a good 12 weeks to really take hold (which was OK, because I was already taking my key social anxiety med -- Klonopin). Without a stimulant, you *might* find either of these AD's to be too sedating, especially if taken with a benzo like Klonopin. But after the first few weeks, you could take all of the S or R at night. They really help people sleep, although I'm not sure if the potential respiritory effects seen with SSRI's or beta blockers figure in with S&R. Nighttime-only Serzone works very well for many people (although it sometimes paradoxically causes sleeplessness intil the body gets used to it), who sleep soundly on it but aren't hit by its sedating effects the next day. And note that some people find Serzone has no effects on daytime wakefulness one way or the other. It's a weird med in a way -- some people find it so much more benign than other AD's side-effect wise (including a welcome lack of sexual dysfunction in most cases), while others consider it to be among the *least* tolerable (especially if they give up on it too soon). Regardless, on thw whole it is considered especially suited for anxiety. On the nighttime sleep-aid front, you might also want to look into trazodone, which is inexpensive, and can help augment the antianxiety or antidepressant effects of other meds.
Rick
Posted by Alara on November 14, 2002, at 5:28:10
In reply to Re: Sleep Apnea and Stims » Alara, posted by Rick on November 13, 2002, at 21:15:35
Rick,
Thanks so much for your time and effort in replying to all my questions! You've given me some definite options to explore and all of your information was incredibly helpful.
I really appreciate this. Thank you. :-)
Posted by BryanFromNJ on February 23, 2004, at 16:26:04
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it? » AnneL, posted by manowar on January 19, 2002, at 16:44:46
> > I have been on Klonopin 1 mg. at bedtime for almost one year now, first as an anti-anxiety agent to get me through the start-up of Effexor and then as a sleep agent. I find it extremely sedating which is great for sleep.
> >
> > But, I haven't heard anyone talk about how it feels to miss a dose. I have not taken it on 2 or 3 ocassions when I have indulged in 3 or more alcoholic beverages, the last time being New Year's Eve. By 4AM, I was in the midst of a severe Klonopin withdrawal. I really feel for those who are addicted to drugs like heroin, etc.
> > The only thing that took away the body twitching, extreme anxiety, etc., was a dose of Klonopin at 4:30 AM. It was a living hell for 30 minutes and I dread the day when I taper off of this drug. Any comments?
>
> Hi,
>
> 1st of all, if it helps you, don't stop taking it. Why stop taking it, as long as you don't have a problem abusing it?Good question. I was on Klonipin for about 3 years, I'm now 22. The only thing I've learned about being off of Klonipin, and going through this withdrawal is to grin and bear it. Obviously I'm not happy about that...but I've found a webpage that explains WhY you should never be on Klonipin ( or any benzo ) for more than a week or two...It's very frightening to think that I was about to ruin my entire life because I simply listened to the doctors, and never educated myself.
Here is the website : http://www.benzo.org.uk/FAQ1.1.htm
Here is the information (specifically) which can teach you what Klonipin use does to us (longterm) :
Regular benzodiazepine use almost always causes some degree of deterioration in cognitive functioning, which progresses with continued use.
Long term benzodiazepine use also causes lethargy and decreased energy levels that result in impairment in work productivity and disinclination towards exercise.
Furthermore, benzodiazepines, and all other classes of sedatives, frequently cause and/or worsen depression
Benzodiazepines can also cause what is sometimes referred to as a "emotional anaesthesia", or "emotional blunting," in which the user's ability to experience powerful emotions is impaired. This has been described as "the inability to feel pleasure or pain" in the medical literature (e.g. Ashton C H, Toxicity and Adverse Consequences of Benzodiazepine Use, 1995). Long-term benzodiazepine users often describe their experience as "sleepwalking through life".
Benzodiazepine use can also cause what are referred to as "paradoxical" symptoms in a minority of users. Paradoxical symptoms are contrary to the intended therapeutic purpose, including outbursts of rage, increased anxiety, and sleeplessness. Paradoxical symptoms can be caused by the drug's interaction with the psychological makeup of the user, or may be a biological reaction to use of the drug that people sometimes refer to as "toxicity". Paradoxical symptoms are sometimes mistaken for withdrawal, and vice versa.
The above effects occur to varying degrees, depending on the individual. Some individuals may not experience many of the effects at all. However, one effect is common to virtually all users: a physical dependency will eventually form. Benzodiazepine dependency is particularly serious as the withdrawal syndrome (see below) can be extremely difficult and protracted. Furthermore, the development of tolerance often makes long term use non-feasible, and withdrawal becomes a necessary eventuality.
Benzodiazepines are often misprescribed for conditions to which they are not appropriate, such as depression. Furthermore, they are often prescribed for anxiety conditions for which the individual could be treated effectively with other therapeutic techniques.
There are, however, legitimate therapeutic benefits for benzodiazepines, particularly if they are used in the short term (no more than 2 weeks of continuous use), or for situational anxiety/panic (for example, one dose of Xanax per month as the need arises.) Furthermore, many users of benzodiazepines, including some who have used them regularly for more than a year, are able to discontinue them with little difficulty.
Posted by Rick on February 23, 2004, at 23:02:16
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it? » manowar, posted by BryanFromNJ on February 23, 2004, at 16:26:04
> > Hi,
> >
> > 1st of all, if it helps you, don't stop taking it. Why stop taking it, as long as you don't have a problem abusing it?
>
> Good question. I was on Klonipin for about 3 years, I'm now 22. The only thing I've learned about being off of Klonipin, and going through this withdrawal is to grin and bear it.Sorry to hear about your difficulties.
> Obviously I'm not happy about that...but I've found a webpage that explains WhY you should never be on Klonipin ( or any benzo ) for more than a week or two...It's very frightening to think that I was about to ruin my entire life because I simply listened to the doctors, and never educated myself.
Not sure I completely follow...Are you saying it was the article that tipped you off that continued benzo use would have ruined your life? Or are you saying it was the withdrawal that tipped you off? Or a combo of the the two? Or something else entirely?
>
> Here is the website : http://www.benzo.org.uk/FAQ1.1.htmWhy do such a disproportionate amount of benzo warnings come from the UK?
> Here is the information (specifically) which can teach you what Klonipin use does to us (longterm) :
I'd make that "what Klonopin use [might] do to [some] of us".
> Regular benzodiazepine use almost always causes some degree of deterioration in cognitive functioning, which progresses with continued use.
My experience after 5 years on Klonopin: Probably true to some degree, specifically sporadic short-term memory lapses. Not sure really worsening, though.
> Long term benzodiazepine use also causes lethargy and decreased energy levels that result in impairment in work productivity and disinclination towards exercise.
My experience: Hasn't happened.
> Furthermore, benzodiazepines, and all other classes of sedatives, frequently cause and/or worsen depression
My experience: Hasn't happened.
> Benzodiazepines can also cause what is sometimes referred to as a "emotional anaesthesia", or "emotional blunting," in which the user's ability to experience powerful emotions is impaired. This has been described as "the inability to feel pleasure or pain" in the medical literature (e.g. Ashton C H, Toxicity and Adverse Consequences of Benzodiazepine Use, 1995). Long-term benzodiazepine users often describe their experience as "sleepwalking through life".
My experience: More the opposite. I can contemplate and enjoy a sunset much more now than when my mind was constantly filled with worry, pre-benzos. Real-life situations, music, movies, can all elicit emotions that are every bit as intense as before I started Klonopin. Before Klonopin, I could rarely have a "completely happy" day, because of my ever-present severe social anxiety. Now I can.
> Benzodiazepine use can also cause what are referred to as "paradoxical" symptoms in a minority of users. Paradoxical symptoms are contrary to the intended therapeutic purpose, including outbursts of rage, increased anxiety, and sleeplessness. Paradoxical symptoms can be caused by the drug's interaction with the psychological makeup of the user, or may be a biological reaction to use of the drug that people sometimes refer to as "toxicity". Paradoxical symptoms are sometimes mistaken for withdrawal, and vice versa.
My experience: So far, so good. But, um, thanks for the warning.
>
> The above effects occur to varying degrees, depending on the individual. Some individuals may not experience many of the effects at all.My experience: I obviously can't argue with that last statement.
>However, one effect is common to virtually all users: a physical dependency will eventually form. Benzodiazepine dependency is particularly serious as the withdrawal syndrome (see below) can be extremely difficult and protracted.
My experience: Can't say because I've never tried to quit.
My pdocs's 25-year experience (and he is NOT a big benzo proponent): Most (certainly not "all") people on low-dose benzos can withdraw with zero-to-fairly low withdrawal distress, even after long-term usage.>Furthermore, the development of tolerance often makes long term use non-feasible
My experience: No tolerance. Have lowered the dosage over the years, with no decline in effectiveness.
> Benzodiazepines are often misprescribed for conditions to which they are not appropriate, such as depression.I don't think this happens much anymore. Not with big pharma spending mega-bucks promoting AD's and trying to scare doctors away from benzos. (Although Pfizer seems to have had an odd change of heart on the advisability of avoiding benzos. Couldn't have anything to do with the fact that they recently acquired an ON-patent benzo (Xanax XR), could it??)
>Furthermore, they are often prescribed for anxiety conditions for which the individual could be treated effectively with other therapeutic techniques.
...but AS effectively (and economically)?? And sometimes, as in my case, the benzo is tried *after* several of those "other theaputic techniques" proved ineffective for a patient.
> There are, however, legitimate therapeutic benefits for benzodiazepines, particularly if they are used in the short term (no more than 2 weeks of continuous use), or for situational anxiety/panic (for example, one dose of Xanax per month as the need arises.)
This is the kind of statement that medical journal articles supported by an "unrestricted" ;) grant from Zoloft-maker Pfizer would make...until Pfizer also acquired Xanax XR, anyway. Articles supported by "unresticted" ;) grants from other pharmas still make those statements...at least until they come out with their own new ON-PATENT benzo.
>Furthermore, many users of benzodiazepines, including some who have used them regularly for more than a year, are able to discontinue them with little difficulty.
True.
Rick
Posted by Rick on February 23, 2004, at 23:41:44
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it? » BryanFromNJ, posted by Rick on February 23, 2004, at 23:02:16
When I cited my pdoc's observations about his patients' experiences stopping maintenance benzo therapy, I probably should have used the phrase "taper off" instead of "withdraw."
Posted by BryanFromNJ on February 24, 2004, at 0:07:27
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it? » BryanFromNJ, posted by Rick on February 23, 2004, at 23:02:16
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > 1st of all, if it helps you, don't stop taking it. Why stop taking it, as long as you don't have a problem abusing it?
> >
> > Good question. I was on Klonipin for about 3 years, I'm now 22. The only thing I've learned about being off of Klonipin, and going through this withdrawal is to grin and bear it.
>
> Sorry to hear about your difficulties.
>
> > Obviously I'm not happy about that...but I've found a webpage that explains WhY you should never be on Klonipin ( or any benzo ) for more than a week or two...It's very frightening to think that I was about to ruin my entire life because I simply listened to the doctors, and never educated myself.
>
> Not sure I completely follow...Are you saying it was the article that tipped you off that continued benzo use would have ruined your life? Or are you saying it was the withdrawal that tipped you off? Or a combo of the the two? Or something else entirely?No it was the article that secured my decision to stay off of klonipin, or benzo's in general.
My experience with discontinuing benzo's was based on a numbness that I cannot really put into words. It was only AFTER I completed the taper process that I realized how overwhelmed my body was from 'long term' benzo usage.> > Here is the website : http://www.benzo.org.uk/FAQ1.1.htm
>
> Why do such a disproportionate amount of benzo warnings come from the UK?I could only make an educated guess, I'm from Nj.
> > Here is the information (specifically) which can teach you what Klonipin use does to us (longterm) :
>
> I'd make that "what Klonopin use [might] do to [some] of us".Okay.
> > Regular benzodiazepine use almost always causes some degree of deterioration in cognitive functioning, which progresses with continued use.
>
> My experience after 5 years on Klonopin: Probably true to some degree, specifically sporadic short-term memory lapses. Not sure really worsening, though.I remember telling people that too, in fact it was the hardest thing for me to come to terms with. After my body had detoxed I thought I was finished. Very naive I was.
> > Long term benzodiazepine use also causes lethargy and decreased energy levels that result in impairment in work productivity and disinclination towards exercise.
>
> My experience: Hasn't happened.My experience has left me with eyes wide open, I cannot believe how much this drug has affected my life.
As for the rest of the symptoms...it's not something I really saw while I was taking Klonipin...I think it may have been impossible for me because of the way I had learned to 'cope'. I don't judge anyones' decision to use, I know I was suffering and Klonipin just kept me there. The reasons behind my previous post was to answer someone's question, I think it did just that.BryanFromNj
Posted by Rick on February 24, 2004, at 1:45:36
In reply to Re: Klonopin ,how do you get off it? 4RICK, posted by BryanFromNJ on February 24, 2004, at 0:07:27
Bryan -
Mind if I ask "a few" questions?
-- How much Klonopin were you taking?
-- Did you find that you developed tolerance
and ended up increasing the dose before
quitting?
-- What psychiatric disorder(s) were/are you
dealing with?
-- Were you taking any other psychotropics at the
same time? If so, which ones?
-- Were/are you consuming much alcohol?
-- Re the problems caused by your
listening to doctors re Klonopin...Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by this? Did your doctor(s) try benzo(s) before anything else? Did a doctor encourage you to stay on Klonopin indefinitely? Did doctors give you bad information (if so, what was it)? Or fail to give you necessary information (if so what was missing)?Sorry about asking so many questions. I'm glad that Klonopin continues to be so beneficial for me, but at the same time I'm sorry to hear that it has caused you suffering. Best wishes on your recovery.
Rick
Posted by djmmm on February 24, 2004, at 19:48:51
In reply to Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it?, posted by AnneL on January 18, 2002, at 23:58:22
> I have been on Klonopin 1 mg. at bedtime for almost one year now, first as an anti-anxiety agent to get me through the start-up of Effexor and then as a sleep agent. I find it extremely sedating which is great for sleep.
>
> But, I haven't heard anyone talk about how it feels to miss a dose. I have not taken it on 2 or 3 ocassions when I have indulged in 3 or more alcoholic beverages, the last time being New Year's Eve. By 4AM, I was in the midst of a severe Klonopin withdrawal. I really feel for those who are addicted to drugs like heroin, etc.
> The only thing that took away the body twitching, extreme anxiety, etc., was a dose of Klonopin at 4:30 AM. It was a living hell for 30 minutes and I dread the day when I taper off of this drug. Any comments?I have been through Klonopin withdrawal...the single WORST experience of my life, I thought I was going to die....I had every withdraw symptom listed on that anti-benzo uk site....every part of my body hurt...(I was on 4mg for about 4 months)... Im still trying to get off it...it has taken me several months..Im down to .5 mg a day
Posted by KXo on February 24, 2004, at 21:39:31
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it?, posted by djmmm on February 24, 2004, at 19:48:51
I asked my doctor about how to take my Klonopin... I asked him if I could take it just when I feel nervous, and he answered YES.
Than I asked him if it would be a problem to take 1,5mg a day for 15 days or more if I am feeling nervous and than not take any the following week if I don't feel nervous that week. He said I could do it.
Do you think he is wrong?
KXo
Posted by rianny on February 25, 2004, at 6:37:07
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it?, posted by KXo on February 24, 2004, at 21:39:31
Ok, I've been on Klonopin for 9 days now (tho skipped some doses 1.0mg/day).
Threads above sound scary.
Posted by awatts on February 25, 2004, at 10:42:43
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it?, posted by KXo on February 24, 2004, at 21:39:31
> I asked my doctor about how to take my Klonopin... I asked him if I could take it just when I feel nervous, and he answered YES.
> Than I asked him if it would be a problem to take 1,5mg a day for 15 days or more if I am feeling nervous and than not take any the following week if I don't feel nervous that week. He said I could do it.
> Do you think he is wrong?
> KXo
No - I think that could work for most folks.
I've been taking 0.5 mg of Klonopin 3 or 4 times a day for a long time. Anxiety returns if I stop for a week or two, but nothing more. (I also take 300 mg of Effexor XR which may be significant.)
Posted by KXo on February 25, 2004, at 13:25:09
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it?, posted by rianny on February 25, 2004, at 6:37:07
Yes. They are very scary!
I am worried about having withdrawal symptoms using Klonopin this way.
It sounds to me that if I take it for 1 month or more and than stop taking it, it would be like quitting cold turkey.
Than, as I would be in the not intentional withdrawal process, I would start to get nervous again and have to take it... maybe less and less, day after day, as the things that were making me nervous would not be present anymore. I would be taking it just to complete a withdrawal process that could never end.
More.. if I am not taking it some days and experience for example, nausea or headaches, not the anxiety and nervousness, I would not know the reason of these headaches.
I don't know... what do you think?
KXo> Ok, I've been on Klonopin for 9 days now (tho skipped some doses 1.0mg/day).
>
> Threads above sound scary.
Posted by KXo on February 25, 2004, at 13:33:36
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it?, posted by awatts on February 25, 2004, at 10:42:43
> > I asked my doctor about how to take my Klonopin... I asked him if I could take it just when I feel nervous, and he answered YES.
> > Than I asked him if it would be a problem to take 1,5mg a day for 15 days or more if I am feeling nervous and than not take any the following week if I don't feel nervous that week. He said I could do it.
> > Do you think he is wrong?
> > KXo
> No - I think that could work for most folks.
> I've been taking 0.5 mg of Klonopin 3 or 4 times a day for a long time. Anxiety returns if I stop for a week or two, but nothing more. (I also take 300 mg of Effexor XR which may be significant.)
>When the anxiety returns after a week or two... could it be because the clonazepam left your system and you need more to feel well, as your body is used to it and Klonopin has a long half-life?
Before, I was on Effexor too and I was anxiety and depression free. I stopped it because of sexual dysfunction. Now, I am taking Ritalin and Klonopin. I don't feel as good as with Effexor, but I am much better!
KXo
Posted by Rick on February 25, 2004, at 16:19:43
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it?, posted by KXo on February 25, 2004, at 13:33:36
I think you're looking for feedback from the people who have had problems stopping, and I've never tried. But I thought I'd mention that even the medical sources that advise against continuous benzo usually say there shouldn't be any withdrawal problems after two weeks or fewer of daily use. Beyond that, I suppose it varies by person.
Rick
This is the end of the thread.
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