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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 43. Go back in thread:
Posted by DSCH on September 27, 2003, at 0:34:50
In reply to Re: Francesco » DSCH, posted by Francesco on September 24, 2003, at 12:07:26
> my hidden dream was to try MAOIs to be sure not to have SP-like-side effects. Tepiaca in another post said in his country (Mexico) exists something like Parmodalin (Parnate + an old antipsychotic) and that he tried and devoleped some kind of TD-like-syntomps. So, my hidden dream is not a dream anymore : (
What is the "old antipsychotic" that gets mixed in with the Parnate in Parmodalin?
TD = tardive dyskinesia?
Posted by francesco on September 27, 2003, at 8:33:36
In reply to Re: news : ) » Francesco , posted by DSCH on September 26, 2003, at 12:56:49
>Why is it that my inner cynic is not surprised >at what he said?
My inner cynic wasn't susprised too but my inner optimistic (very inner ;-) was a bit surprised. He wrote (not me, him)in an article that Stimulants are first line treatment for Adhd. What's happened after ? Does he have mood swings ?
;-)>Paraphrase of the notional thought process:
>"Imipramine is MY first choice as an ADHD med. >Therefore if you do not respond well to it, you >are probably BP2."another possibile paraphrase:
"You suggest desipramine but I'm the doctor and you're just a patient. Therefore I suggest imipramine otherwise which is my role in the society ?" ;-)>I really hope this is a misconception of mine >and that our "best" medical minds are much more >flexible and scientific than this! :-p
I think there is no misconception : ) Doctors are human being too and their self-esteem is usually incredibily high. This oftens leads to several incredibile biases. I told the doctor before I was not obsessed, I just daydreamed all day long.
"Psichiatry is not interested in daydreaming"
He must have been ill when they explained Adhd at university ! "I drink more when I'm on meds"
"No way, they give meds to alcoholics" ... I sent him an article that linked SSRIs and increased-compulsive-alcohol consumption. Of course he never answered. "I got more depressed when I took Prozac" "No way, Prozac is an antidepressant" ... but "increased depression" is one of the listed side-effects, and so on ... The summary of all this can be: all negative effects you get from meds is auto-suggestion while all positive effects is dued to meds ... Very scientific !>Are any ideas for your bio-ethics PhD thesis >dissertation being sparked by this experience of >yours? ;-)
I would like to write a thesis about "ethics & meds" but I am a bit too much involved in it. There are SO many things that should be said : )
Posted by francesco on September 27, 2003, at 9:03:47
In reply to Re: news : ) » Francesco , posted by DSCH on September 26, 2003, at 13:04:09
>For what it's worth imipramine may be a step >upwards as it tends to be less anticholinergic >than clomipramine according to Perrine.
I agree. I will insist on desipramine but if he doesn't allow me to try it I will try imipramine. Sooner or later in my life I will have to try stimulants to know how they work & if they work.
Trials & errors procedure is far for more scientific in my opinion than put up a diagnosis in twenty minutes (or by mail !). If he's in doubt between ADHD & -bipolar rapid cycles- I think that he should allow me to try stimulants for few days and see what happens. Then if I get manic I'm bipolar II otherwise I'm ADHD. I know this is not a sharp procedure but which is the alternative ? I'm going to tell tell him also that I tried cocaine twice or thrice in my life and I didn't get euphoric at all. My main reaction to cocaine was wondering insistently why so many people spend so much money for it : )
>I wonder what he would have to say if he had >followed our discourse from when it began back >when I warned you about MAOIs? ;-)Psychiatrists are not used to follow discourses : ) There are so many things I would like to write in my PHD thesis ... first of all:
why do side-effects of antidepressants resemble so much to diagnostic cryteria for depression ?Imagine a person who eats very much and compulsively, who usually sleeps 12 hours a day, who's not interested in sex anyomore even if he was before, who's always tired and speaks and acts very slowly. Is he depressed ? No, he's taking Anafranil ... ;-)
Sorry for my harangue (find this on a dictionary) but I skipped Anafranil again to be able to go out this evening : )
Posted by francesco on September 27, 2003, at 9:38:34
In reply to Parmodalin? » Francesco , posted by DSCH on September 27, 2003, at 0:34:50
The antipsychotic in Parmodalin is Trifluoperazine (brand name Stelazine). In a capsule of Parmodalin there is 10mg of Parnate and 1mg of Trifluoperazine. At this low doses Trifluoperazine acts like an anxiolytic ... but there are still a couple of points that makes me think.
1. Tardive Diskynesia it doesn't seem to be related with dosage (correct me if I'm wrong). if Parmodalin works great for me I could take it for years. I don't know if 25-40% of chances of having my life ruined is worth the eventual benefits of Parmodalin.
2. I would have to bear also the side-effects of Trifluoperazine. For ex. Parnate is supposed not to have sexual side-effects but antipsychotics of course have. I red a couple of italian's posts (on italian sites) complaining about impotence on Parmodalin. (does Italian government has something against meds that *don't* have sexual side-effects ? are they a price dued if you're a bit strange ? chemical castration for bad genes genes' owners ? sorry, today I'm in a preacher mood ;-)
3. Parnate should affect positively dopamine, and this effect should be counteracted by Trifluoperazine (to some extent, don't know which). So one of the reasons to try it (avoid anedhonia-apathia given by meds) should be not a good reason ...
Any input ? : )
Posted by DSCH on September 28, 2003, at 9:12:46
In reply to Re: Parmodalin? » DSCH, posted by francesco on September 27, 2003, at 9:38:34
> The antipsychotic in Parmodalin is Trifluoperazine (brand name Stelazine). In a capsule of Parmodalin there is 10mg of Parnate and 1mg of Trifluoperazine. At this low doses Trifluoperazine acts like an anxiolytic ... but there are still a couple of points that makes me think.
>
> 1. Tardive Diskynesia it doesn't seem to be related with dosage (correct me if I'm wrong). if Parmodalin works great for me I could take it for years. I don't know if 25-40% of chances of having my life ruined is worth the eventual benefits of Parmodalin.As if that is not enough there is also Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (NMS).
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic3/trifluo_wcp.htm
> 2. I would have to bear also the side-effects of Trifluoperazine. For ex. Parnate is supposed not to have sexual side-effects but antipsychotics of course have. I red a couple of italian's posts (on italian sites) complaining about impotence on Parmodalin. (does Italian government has something against meds that *don't* have sexual side-effects ? are they a price dued if you're a bit strange ? chemical castration for bad genes genes' owners ? sorry, today I'm in a preacher mood ;-)Perhaps it is the belief that, of all people, Italians should not have their sexual interests or ability increased as they are "high" enough as it is! ;-) (just joking)
Concern over sexual side effects by the professionals and the pharmaceutical industry was slow to get going here I believe (the old attitude: "be thankful that you aren't mentally ill anymore rather than complaining about your sex life"). But with the trend going towards more sophisticated medications with fewer side effects anyway, momentum has finally built up here. The industry realizes now, in this "post-Prozac" era, that a psychoactive drug that doesn't have sexual side effects is more likely to be a money-generating "hit"; and money is why they are ultimately in the business anyway (as a capitalist myself, I don't mean that badly). :-)
> 3. Parnate should affect positively dopamine, and this effect should be counteracted by Trifluoperazine (to some extent, don't know which). So one of the reasons to try it (avoid anedhonia-apathia given by meds) should be not a good reason ...
>
> Any input ? : )
>I think this line of reasoning is logically flawed; just because you have some SP symptoms *ON* Anafranil does not mean you should take an anti-SP drug. Your underlying condition is (probably) ADHD rather than SP so treat the ADHD unless your intent is to base a cocktail around Anafranil (and I don't see a good way of going about that either).
My philosophy would be: see what you can find in a replacement that keeps the good aspects of Anafranil (improved focus and overall mental function) while dropping the bad ones (this collection of symptoms borrowing from OCD, ODD, and SP). I think exhausting the possibilities of the "cleaner" tricyclics given your treatment history and the difficulties surrounding stimulants in your country is the best route forward. After that would come Reboxetine and then, if you can get it, Strattera. I would leave Ritalin as the final option at this point (but that's just my thinking anyway). I'm not wise/exeperienced enough to suggest a good way to make this happen with conservative pdocs who don't want sophisticated input from their patients regarding their own treatment. The one thought that occured to me was going back to the one who prescribed Anafranil to you in the first place and maybe simply mentioning to him/her that you have read that desipramine and nortriptyline have the least frequent and severe side effects of all the tricyclics.
Going back to the BP2 issue, what were your conclusions from reading that article that discussed the similarities and differences between them?
Posted by DSCH on September 28, 2003, at 9:31:21
In reply to Re: news : ) 2 » DSCH, posted by francesco on September 27, 2003, at 9:03:47
> Psychiatrists are not used to follow discourses : ) There are so many things I would like to write in my PHD thesis ... first of all:
> why do side-effects of antidepressants resemble so much to diagnostic cryteria for depression ?Because depression is not monolithic and linear but a collection of syndromes and non-linear. And treating an indivdual's own idiosyncratic form of depression with the wrong antidepressant only makes things worse.
Psychiatry is the only branch of medicine left that usually does not undertake imaging and chemical diagnostics (beyond the obligatory thyroid check the GP probably already did). So they resort to trial and error (my catchphrase: the "drug roulette wheel").
Being doctors, they are sensitive to accusations of iatrogenic problems, so it is understandable they attempt to shrug these off while accepting the up side when it comes. That's human nature.
Posted by francesco on September 28, 2003, at 11:45:23
In reply to Re: Parmodalin? » francesco, posted by DSCH on September 28, 2003, at 9:12:46
You seem to be right. I'm not social phobic so why treat social phobia ? the only reason was that in the last year I tried something like 4 different meds. With the possible exception of Paxil every med made me feel "weird" and this gives me problems in the social area. Maybe I'm not social phobic but I have some SP traits that worsen under meds ... I really don't know. Anyway I can't be sure that Imiprammine will give me the same kind of problem. The doc seems oriented to let me try first Imiprammine and only after an eventual failure Desipramine. I thought Desipramine was good also because is used in "ritired depressions", so I think it should be pro-social.
Anyway, he knows about the existence of adult-Adhd and this is quite good. The previous doc gave me Anafranil because he thought I had an OCD problem ... so he wouldn't give me other tryciclics because Anafranil is the best for OCD.
I can bear not to be sexual for a period. But I don't think I can stand it for life. So, if I have this kind of problem sooner or later I'll finish to quit the med (to re-start it after a vacation).I don't care about having sex here and now but I'm looking for a treatment that could be useful in the long term. My condition without meds is not unbearable, so I'm quite demanding ... I want to be sure that it's worth.
Another issue is that my body doesn't seem to be capable anymore to tolerate meds. The last two times I took Anafranil I got ill (got a bad fever) and I usually don't get ill. But I don't want to complain too much. In this thread there are people who suffer from Major Depression or worse while I can choose if taking meds or not. So I suppose I can't complain too much. Somehow I managed to make a lot of things despite the disturb ... (I'm trying to convince myself ;-)
about Bipolar II ... I have never been hypomaniac for days ... the only time was when I quit Anafranil cold turkey ... but I red it can happen
so maybe I could be bipolar rapid cycling. I can't remember exactly the points in the article just that I recognize myself far more in the Adhd profile. anyway I have problems in concentration (organization, etc.) if I'm depressed, high, or medium ... this doc seems to be an expert also in bipolar II ... therefore I hope he'll be able to understand my problems and give me a proper treatment ... Imiprammine is anyway a step forward
I'm a bit deluse about Parmodalin because I thougt despite the evidences that Maois could be the key. They are known to make people high even if they're not depressed (I have never been happy under meds) and parnate seems to be very similar to anphetamine in ist chemical structure. I'll ask about it to this new p-doc. The Parmodalin mix is a crime and it makes no sense.
I'm attracted by stimulants because I have the sensation that they affect your personality less than antidepressants. I have this feeling that they are in some way "saner" and more natural. and you can skip a dose and be yourself if you want. but the prices on the net are crazy and I wouldn't like to explain to police that I'm affected by Adhd ;-)
Thank you for the support. It really means a lot for me. Ok, today I had my anafranil pill so I can go to watch a movie now ;-) bye !
Posted by DSCH on September 28, 2003, at 16:37:34
In reply to Re: Parmodalin? » DSCH, posted by francesco on September 28, 2003, at 11:45:23
> You seem to be right. I'm not social phobic so why treat social phobia ? the only reason was that in the last year I tried something like 4 different meds.
OK, were these the four: Paxil, Celexa, Wellbutrin, and Prozac? Could you summarize "the good, the bad, and the ugly" when it came to those again? Some of your posts from earlier where... uh... a little unclear. ;-)
>With the possible exception of Paxil every med made me feel "weird" and this gives me problems in the social area. Maybe I'm not social phobic but I have some SP traits that worsen under meds ... I really don't know. Anyway I can't be sure that Imiprammine will give me the same kind of problem. The doc seems oriented to let me try first Imiprammine and only after an eventual failure Desipramine. I thought Desipramine was good also because is used in "ritired depressions", so I think it should be pro-social.
You mean depressions in the elderly? Hmmmm. Seeing as sometimes the dopaminergic system goes out with age (Parkinson's), why not the noradrenergic? I guess this would appear as 'senility' *without* long term memory loss (that's more acetylcholine-related). It would actually be late life onset of ADD! The 'depression' could be a secondary thing (who wouldn't be "down" knowing they had lost their mental abilities?). Anyway don't take too much from this ramble. ;-)
> Anyway, he knows about the existence of adult-Adhd and this is quite good. The previous doc gave me Anafranil because he thought I had an OCD problem ... so he wouldn't give me other tryciclics because Anafranil is the best for OCD.
>
> I can bear not to be sexual for a period. But I don't think I can stand it for life. So, if I have this kind of problem sooner or later I'll finish to quit the med (to re-start it after a vacation).I don't care about having sex here and now but I'm looking for a treatment that could be useful in the long term. My condition without meds is not unbearable, so I'm quite demanding ... I want to be sure that it's worth.My sexual problem is more related to the fact that, off meds and feeling/thinking well, I still come off as a vistor from another planet to women, I think. ;-) Most women say they want an intelligent man, but I believe most put a cut-off at an IQ around 130 or so. ;-) Above that and it becomes strange and intimidating.
> Another issue is that my body doesn't seem to be capable anymore to tolerate meds. The last two times I took Anafranil I got ill (got a bad fever) and I usually don't get ill. But I don't want to complain too much. In this thread there are people who suffer from Major Depression or worse while I can choose if taking meds or not. So I suppose I can't complain too much. Somehow I managed to make a lot of things despite the disturb ... (I'm trying to convince myself ;-)
I got 'bronchitis' after starting Paxil and my lungs never quite fully cleared up after that it seemed (that's also better now). Might not be coincidental
> about Bipolar II ... I have never been hypomaniac for days ... the only time was when I quit Anafranil cold turkey ... but I red it can happen
>
> so maybe I could be bipolar rapid cycling. I can't remember exactly the points in the article just that I recognize myself far more in the Adhd profile. anyway I have problems in concentration (organization, etc.) if I'm depressed, high, or medium ... this doc seems to be an expert also in bipolar II ... therefore I hope he'll be able to understand my problems and give me a proper treatment ... Imiprammine is anyway a step forward
>
> I'm a bit deluse about Parmodalin because I thougt despite the evidences that Maois could be the key. They are known to make people high even if they're not depressed (I have never been happy under meds) and parnate seems to be very similar to anphetamine in ist chemical structure. I'll ask about it to this new p-doc. The Parmodalin mix is a crime and it makes no sense.
>
> I'm attracted by stimulants because I have the sensation that they affect your personality less than antidepressants. I have this feeling that they are in some way "saner" and more natural. and you can skip a dose and be yourself if you want. but the prices on the net are crazy and I wouldn't like to explain to police that I'm affected by Adhd ;-)Heh, pstims being "natural". LOL
For what it's worth, most people regard antidepressant type drugs as being more subtle than the pstims. Your view is colored by the bad reactions you've had with the SSRIs, which is certainly not unknown among ADD sufferers who have been misdiagnosed as depressives or OCDers.
I thought Paxil was doing me some good when I was on it back in 2001. I thought I felt some mood lift from it. But my other problems at the time (and likely the ROOT ones) were not having enough psychological energy and the will and focus to get things done consistently from day to day. Paxil didn't help those at all and may have made them somewhat worse. It gave me a false sense that I was doing something about my problems that only got me into more trouble.
> Thank you for the support. It really means a lot for me. Ok, today I had my anafranil pill so I can go to watch a movie now ;-) bye !
I'm glad you feel this way. I wish I had had someone with similar experiences to talk with like this back in 2001.
Posted by francesco on September 28, 2003, at 17:39:28
In reply to Re: Parmodalin? » francesco, posted by DSCH on September 28, 2003, at 16:37:34
>OK, were these the four: Paxil, Celexa, >Wellbutrin, and Prozac? Could you summarize "the >good, the bad, and the ugly" when it came to >those again? Some of your posts from earlier >where... uh... a little unclear. ;-)
Paxil: relatively good at low doses (I was extrovert) ... at high doses I wanted to kill my girlfriend, myself and my psychiatrist (rage, anger, fury)... horrible withdrawal - delayed ejaculation
Celexa: mental and physical tiredness - weirdness - no wirthdrawal - no sexual dysfunctions - apathy - some help with concentration at low doses
Wellbutrin (only ten days): extroardinary sensation of weirdness - blank mind or manic rage (dipending on the moment) - extroardinary forgetfulnesses or improved organization (depending on the moment)- nervousness
Prozac (only ten days): feeling like I were dead -didn't want to do anything - tired tired tired - a bit suicidal - strong detachment from reality
(first time I tried Prozac years ago I had opposite effects: I got a little hypo and agitated. I stayed on it for six months, I was able to study and my social life was good even if I was a little detached and sometimes aggressive. I quit it because I was too high I think ... Last time anyway I tried a 'different' version of fluoxetine)
Anafranil: shy and introverted - concentrated - lonely and mildly depressed - a bit obsessive
> You mean depressions in the elderly? Hmmmm.lol
I mean depression with tendency to isolate
sorry for the misunderstanding : )>My sexual problem is more related to the fact >that, off meds and feeling/thinking well, I >still come off as a vistor from another planet >to women, I think. ;-) Most women say they want >an intelligent man, but I believe most put a cut->off at an IQ around 130 or so. ;-) Above that >and it becomes strange and intimidating.
>lol
>you might be right.
>sometimes I managed to exploit my weirdness >convincing someone that I'm kind of special ;-)>I got 'bronchitis' after starting Paxil and my >lungs never quite fully cleared up after that it >seemed (that's also better now). Might not be >coincidental
I don't think it's coincidental. Yesterday and the day before I skipped Anafranil and I felt physically fine. Today I took the pill and I feel ill again (sore throat and flu-like-syntoms)
> Heh, pstims being "natural". LOL
What I was trying to say is that there is something like ampethamine in our body but there is nothing like ... fluoxetine ! Ok, maybe it doesn't mean anything
> For what it's worth, most people regard > antidepressant type drugs as being more subtle > than the pstims. Your view is colored by the > bad reactions you've had with the SSRIs, which > is certainly not unknown among ADD sufferers > who have been misdiagnosed as depressives or > OCDers.
Really ? This is great
> I'm glad you feel this way. I wish I had had > someone with similar experiences to talk with > like this back in 2001.
Yeah, you helped me a lot. In my worst days I got tremendous help from your posts. I had the sensation that there were people out there who could understand.
Bye !
------------------------------------------------
Thread
Re: Non-stimulant, Non-TCA for ADHD? « Francesco Dr. Bob 9/15/03
...
news : ) » DSCH Francesco 9/26/03
Re: news : ) » Francesco DSCH 9/26/03
Re: news : ) » Francesco DSCH 9/26/03
Social babble self-redirect ;-) » Francesco DSCH 9/26/03
Re: thanks :-) (nm) » DSCH Dr. Bob 9/26/03
Parmodalin? » Francesco DSCH 9/27/03
Re: news : ) » DSCH francesco 9/27/03
Re: news : ) 2 » DSCH francesco 9/27/03
Re: Parmodalin? » DSCH francesco 9/27/03
Re: Parmodalin? » francesco DSCH 9/28/03
Re: news : ) 2 » francesco DSCH 9/28/03
Re: Parmodalin? » DSCH francesco 9/28/03
Re: Parmodalin? » francesco DSCH 9/28/03
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URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030928/msgs/264018.html
Posted by DSCH on September 30, 2003, at 0:52:26
In reply to Re: Parmodalin? » DSCH, posted by francesco on September 28, 2003, at 17:39:28
> >OK, were these the four: Paxil, Celexa, >Wellbutrin, and Prozac? Could you summarize "the >good, the bad, and the ugly" when it came to >those again? Some of your posts from earlier >where... uh... a little unclear. ;-)
>
> Paxil: relatively good at low doses (I was extrovert) ... at high doses I wanted to kill my girlfriend, myself and my psychiatrist (rage, anger, fury)... horrible withdrawal - delayed ejaculation
>
> Celexa: mental and physical tiredness - weirdness - no wirthdrawal - no sexual dysfunctions - apathy - some help with concentration at low doses
>
> Wellbutrin (only ten days): extroardinary sensation of weirdness - blank mind or manic rage (dipending on the moment) - extroardinary forgetfulnesses or improved organization (depending on the moment)- nervousness
>
> Prozac (only ten days): feeling like I were dead -didn't want to do anything - tired tired tired - a bit suicidal - strong detachment from realityWhy these SSRIs would be so different for you boggles me. I cannot apply the same level of reasoning I have used previously in our discussion towards dissecting these effects. Goes to show how little is really known about how these drugs really do what they do in individual human beings.
Posted by DSCH on October 1, 2003, at 15:11:41
In reply to Re: Parmodalin? » DSCH, posted by francesco on September 28, 2003, at 17:39:28
Francesco,
Just thought you should know I am giving yohimbe tincture purchased OTC from a health food store a cautious trial.
Here's the thread I started over on PB Alternative...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/264741.htmlIf you're interested, don't run out and do it yourself right away as it can harmfully interact with your clomipramine. It's something of a tricky bag of chemicals to begin with (maybe more than one active compound and a narrow therapeutic dosage window), but some of the things I've read about it are quite promising. Oh yes, it is often quite pro-sexual too. ;-)
Posted by francesco on October 1, 2003, at 18:34:52
In reply to Trying something new » francesco, posted by DSCH on October 1, 2003, at 15:11:41
Good Luck and let me know how it's going on !
(what's OTC ?)
Posted by DSCH on October 1, 2003, at 18:53:28
In reply to Re: Trying something new » DSCH, posted by francesco on October 1, 2003, at 18:34:52
> Good Luck and let me know how it's going on !
> (what's OTC ?)OTC = "over the counter", i.e. one is not required to submit a doctor's prescription to the pharmacist in order to purchase.
Posted by francesco on October 2, 2003, at 7:13:28
In reply to Re: Trying something new » francesco, posted by DSCH on October 1, 2003, at 18:53:28
That's great ! If it works for you I'll stop my clomipramine ;-) Are you going to take something else or only yohimbe ? Why do you think it can interact with clomipramine ? I mean, a lot of people use it with SSRIs, don't they ?
Posted by DSCH on October 2, 2003, at 8:48:13
In reply to Re: Trying something new » DSCH, posted by francesco on October 2, 2003, at 7:13:28
> That's great ! If it works for you I'll stop my clomipramine ;-) Are you going to take something else or only yohimbe ? Why do you think it can interact with clomipramine ? I mean, a lot of people use it with SSRIs, don't they ?
Let's discuss this in the thread I gave you the link to in the earlier post so we keep the alternative stuff on the alternative board for Dr. Bob's sake. :-)
Here's the link again...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/264741.html
Posted by SLS on October 2, 2003, at 9:08:56
In reply to Trying something new » francesco, posted by DSCH on October 1, 2003, at 15:11:41
> Francesco,
>
> Just thought you should know I am giving yohimbe tincture purchased OTC from a health food store a cautious trial.
If you find yohimbe partially helpful, you might consider trying Remeron (mirtazapine). Both share the property of NE alpha-2 receptor antagonism.- Scott
Posted by DSCH on October 2, 2003, at 9:47:28
In reply to Re: Trying something new, posted by SLS on October 2, 2003, at 9:08:56
> If you find yohimbe partially helpful, you might consider trying Remeron (mirtazapine). Both share the property of NE alpha-2 receptor antagonism.
>
> - ScottYes, but then there are are also the antagonisms of 5-HT2a, 5-HT2c, 5-HT3, and H1. For the moment, no, thank you. :-)
Who are the people that Remeron helps most? I don't really get what this one is supposed to be about.
If you want to comment further in regards to yohimbe, here's the thread over on PB Alternative...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/264741.html
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 2, 2003, at 18:36:13
In reply to Re: Trying something new » francesco, posted by DSCH on October 2, 2003, at 8:48:13
> Let's discuss this in the thread I gave you the link to in the earlier post so we keep the alternative stuff on the alternative board for Dr. Bob's sake. :-)
>
> Here's the link again...
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/264741.htmlThanks, I appreciate that!
Bob
Posted by DSCH on October 2, 2003, at 21:30:15
In reply to Redirect: yohimbe, posted by Dr. Bob on October 2, 2003, at 18:36:13
Posted by DSCH on October 6, 2003, at 7:59:18
In reply to Varied SSRI affect » francesco, posted by DSCH on September 30, 2003, at 0:52:26
"My question was: in a post of yours you said that an excess of serotonin could be linked to my meds-induced introversion ... what did you make think so?"
Francesco, just have a look at the different things that have happened to you on SSRIs!
I'm not basing this on theory, I am just thinking that this is direct evidence we should leave your serotonergic neurons alone! ;-)
If classic ADHD is indeed your one and only root problem, then the target is first norepinepherine, and then *maybe* dopamine.
> > >OK, were these the four: Paxil, Celexa, >Wellbutrin, and Prozac? Could you summarize "the >good, the bad, and the ugly" when it came to >those again? Some of your posts from earlier >where... uh... a little unclear. ;-)
> >
> > Paxil: relatively good at low doses (I was extrovert) ... at high doses I wanted to kill my girlfriend, myself and my psychiatrist (rage, anger, fury)... horrible withdrawal - delayed ejaculation
> >
> > Celexa: mental and physical tiredness - weirdness - no wirthdrawal - no sexual dysfunctions - apathy - some help with concentration at low doses
> >
> > Wellbutrin (only ten days): extroardinary sensation of weirdness - blank mind or manic rage (dipending on the moment) - extroardinary forgetfulnesses or improved organization (depending on the moment)- nervousness
> >
> > Prozac (only ten days): feeling like I were dead -didn't want to do anything - tired tired tired - a bit suicidal - strong detachment from reality
>
> Why these SSRIs would be so different for you boggles me. I cannot apply the same level of reasoning I have used previously in our discussion towards dissecting these effects. Goes to show how little is really known about how these drugs really do what they do in individual human beings.
Posted by francesco on October 6, 2003, at 13:25:30
In reply to Francesco! Anafranil side effects!, posted by DSCH on October 6, 2003, at 7:59:18
>I'm not basing this on theory, I am just >thinking that this is direct evidence we should >leave your serotonergic neurons alone! ;-)
I do think so. That's the reason why I would prefer desipramine rather than imipramine (it's less serotoninergic than Anafranil, anyhow it's serotoninergic). Of course I'm not going to tell the deep reason to my new p-doc ;-)
About yohimbe and thinking about sex ... have you considered OCD ? ;-) (of course I'm kidding !!! : )
bye, I'll stay out for a couple of days to see my PHD tutor in Parma ... hope he won't kick my a** ... I have ADHD, I'm disabled !
Posted by DSCH on October 6, 2003, at 15:57:26
In reply to Re: Francesco! Anafranil side effects! » DSCH, posted by francesco on October 6, 2003, at 13:25:30
> bye, I'll stay out for a couple of days to see my PHD tutor in Parma ... hope he won't kick my a** ... I have ADHD, I'm disabled !
OK. Good luck with that. :-)
Posted by DSCH on October 9, 2003, at 15:38:10
In reply to Re: Francesco! Anafranil side effects! » DSCH, posted by francesco on October 6, 2003, at 13:25:30
> >I'm not basing this on theory, I am just >thinking that this is direct evidence we should >leave your serotonergic neurons alone! ;-)
>
> I do think so. That's the reason why I would prefer desipramine rather than imipramine (it's less serotoninergic than Anafranil, anyhow it's serotoninergic). Of course I'm not going to tell the deep reason to my new p-doc ;-)
>
> About yohimbe and thinking about sex ... have you considered OCD ? ;-) (of course I'm kidding !!! : )
>
> bye, I'll stay out for a couple of days to see my PHD tutor in Parma ... hope he won't kick my a** ... I have ADHD, I'm disabled !I hope your meeting has gone well. I can remember how frustrated by thesis advisors got with me. They could tell how much knowledge and creativity I could bring to bear on problems, but I lacked the will and focus to sustain the work in the lab. Anyway, even improved I have to admit I am more of an idea guy than an experimentalist. I need to find something that suits me and brings in some income. :-/
Anyway... a little tidbit of information for you regarding tricyclics I came across as I was looking for stuff on herbals...
Nortriptyline is weighted more towards serotonin reuptake inhibition than it is norepinepherine. Unfortunately the manner in which this book sites references is very clumsy; if you wish I can provide them for you sometime.
Imipramine is possibily a step in the right direction (NE > 5-HT), while desipramine appears to be the most NE targeted tricyclic (NE >> 5-HT).
Posted by zeugma on October 11, 2003, at 9:09:52
In reply to Francesco! More on Tricyclics! » francesco, posted by DSCH on October 9, 2003, at 15:38:10
> > >I'm not basing this on theory, I am just >thinking that this is direct evidence we should >leave your serotonergic neurons alone! ;-)
> >
> > I do think so. That's the reason why I would prefer desipramine rather than imipramine (it's less serotoninergic than Anafranil, anyhow it's serotoninergic). Of course I'm not going to tell the deep reason to my new p-doc ;-)
> >
> > About yohimbe and thinking about sex ... have you considered OCD ? ;-) (of course I'm kidding !!! : )
> >
> > bye, I'll stay out for a couple of days to see my PHD tutor in Parma ... hope he won't kick my a** ... I have ADHD, I'm disabled !
>
> I hope your meeting has gone well. I can remember how frustrated by thesis advisors got with me. They could tell how much knowledge and creativity I could bring to bear on problems, but I lacked the will and focus to sustain the work in the lab. Anyway, even improved I have to admit I am more of an idea guy than an experimentalist. I need to find something that suits me and brings in some income. :-/
>
> Anyway... a little tidbit of information for you regarding tricyclics I came across as I was looking for stuff on herbals...
>
> Nortriptyline is weighted more towards serotonin reuptake inhibition than it is norepinepherine. Unfortunately the manner in which this book sites references is very clumsy; if you wish I can provide them for you sometime.
>
> Imipramine is possibily a step in the right direction (NE > 5-HT), while desipramine appears to be the most NE targeted tricyclic (NE >> 5-HT).
>
>
Hi, sorry to jump into this conversation (and I am a pretty rank beginner when it comes to the subtleties of neurochemistry and such :)) but everything I have read suggests the the rank order for NE vs. 5-HT affinities of tricyclics is desipramine > nortriptyline > imipramine > amitriptyline. Of course, this is complicated by the fact that the tertiary amines are metabolized to noradrenergic secondary amines; this is true of clomipramine, as well, which the impressive new "Manual of Clinical Psychopharmacology" describes as possibly the only true serotonergic among the TCA's. (Very likely this is true for fast metabolizers of the tertiary amines; however, there sems to be wide variability in rates of absorption etc.; the secondary amines have a simpler metabolism, which is another big advantage for this latter class.)See this link for more details:
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/283/3/1305
Posted by DSCH on October 11, 2003, at 13:42:33
In reply to Re: Francesco! More on Tricyclics! » DSCH, posted by zeugma on October 11, 2003, at 9:09:52
> Hi, sorry to jump into this conversation (and I am a pretty rank beginner when it comes to the subtleties of neurochemistry and such :))
This isn't intended to be private chit-chat between just me and Francesco, anyone is welcome to join in anytime. :-) And I have no formal education in pharmacology, psychopharmacology, or even biology beyond AP high school level. My organic chem is undergrad level and inorganic could be described as a bit beyond undergrad.
>but everything I have read suggests the the rank order for NE vs. 5-HT affinities of tricyclics is desipramine > nortriptyline > imipramine > amitriptyline. Of course, this is complicated by the fact that the tertiary amines are metabolized to noradrenergic secondary amines; this is true of clomipramine, as well, which the impressive new "Manual of Clinical Psychopharmacology" describes as possibly the only true serotonergic among the TCA's. (Very likely this is true for fast metabolizers of the tertiary amines; however, there sems to be wide variability in rates of absorption etc.; the secondary amines have a simpler metabolism, which is another big advantage for this latter class.)
>
> See this link for more details:
>
> http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/283/3/1305
>Thanks for bringing this to my attention. The chart where I found the notation "5-HT > NE" for nortriptyline was in "The Psychopharmacology of Herbal Medicine" which leads off the chapter on psychotherapeutic herbs with a discussion of the standard prescription synthetics. Four references are listed for the chart, two I have yet to find in the clumsy bibliography and the other two appear to be textbooks.
Sometime soon I'll peruse the link you provided.
This is the end of the thread.
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