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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by don_bristol on September 15, 2003, at 8:03:36
Why do MAOIs make you put on weight?
Is it just that they increase the apetite? I have heard people talk of carbohydrate cravings with MAOIs.
Or do the MAOIs change the metabolism in some way so that the body needs less energy or it stores more energy from the food it takes in?
Posted by cosis on September 15, 2003, at 9:43:32
In reply to Why do MAOIs make you put on weight?, posted by don_bristol on September 15, 2003, at 8:03:36
> Why do MAOIs make you put on weight?
>
> Is it just that they increase the apetite? I have heard people talk of carbohydrate cravings with MAOIs.
>
> Or do the MAOIs change the metabolism in some way so that the body needs less energy or it stores more energy from the food it takes in?They made me eat a lot more sweet foods so obviously I would have gained weight, now I am on a pretty strict diet which contains very little high carb foods and I have been able to maintain my weight :)
Posted by loolot on September 15, 2003, at 9:56:57
In reply to Re: Why do MAOIs make you put on weight?, posted by cosis on September 15, 2003, at 9:43:32
Posted by cubbybear on September 16, 2003, at 0:44:14
In reply to I thought people lost weight on Parnate? (nm), posted by loolot on September 15, 2003, at 9:56:57
Hi loolot,
It seems that I'm one of the minority who has always had carbohydrate & sweets cravings while on MAOI Parnate. After a few days of beginning my treatment, I start pigging out on cookies, potato chips, cake, crackers, etc.and then my weight starts to shoot up and finally stabilizes at "normal" levels. For me this is a great side-effect of the drug, since I'm built small for a male, and the weight I lose during a severe depressive episode is significant and disturbing. I know that a lot of people who have a weight gain problem (whether on ADs or not) give me dirty looks when I tell them this. I myself am curious about the weight gain issue. I would like to know whether the MAOI alters my metabolism or . . .just *what* is going on that causes me to gain weight on Parnate. Maybe one of our regular experts would know.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 16, 2003, at 17:30:23
In reply to Re: I thought people lost weight on Parnate? » loolot, posted by cubbybear on September 16, 2003, at 0:44:14
I think I've brought this up here once before -- I think the few people who gain weight on speed do so because rather than forget about eating altogether, they just eat really fast. :-) Though it's still debated whether Parnate is actually metabolized to amphetamine and methamphetamine as has been suggested before, something in it certainly causes a release of norepinephrine into the brain that's quite amphetamine-like. And there is at least one case report of a serious Parnate addiction. I don't mean dependency, I mean *addiction*. Like some woman was taking 400-500mg/day to keep the amphetamines in her system:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1873639&dopt=Abstract
Posted by Caleb462 on September 16, 2003, at 23:31:09
In reply to Re: I thought people lost weight on Parnate? » loolot » cubbybear, posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 16, 2003, at 17:30:23
> I think I've brought this up here once before -- I think the few people who gain weight on speed do so because rather than forget about eating altogether, they just eat really fast. :-) Though it's still debated whether Parnate is actually metabolized to amphetamine and methamphetamine as has been suggested before, something in it certainly causes a release of norepinephrine into the brain that's quite amphetamine-like. And there is at least one case report of a serious Parnate addiction. I don't mean dependency, I mean *addiction*. Like some woman was taking 400-500mg/day to keep the amphetamines in her system:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1873639&dopt=AbstractMy assumption is that parnate, due to it's relation to amphetamine, has the ability to induce norepinephrine/dopamine release. The amphetamine/methamphetamine metabolite theory has pretty much been proved false.
Posted by don_bristol on September 17, 2003, at 4:17:33
In reply to Re: I thought people lost weight on Parnate? » loolot » cubbybear, posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 16, 2003, at 17:30:23
-- snip --
> it's still debated whether Parnate is actually metabolized to
> amphetamine and methamphetamine as has been suggested before,
> something in it certainly causes a release of norepinephrine
> into the brain that's quite amphetamine-like. And there is
> at least one case report of a serious Parnate addiction. I
> don't mean dependency, I mean *addiction*."Amie Sans Vie", what you say is quite important to me. I used to take Moclobemide with good results (until it stopped working after a few months). Moclobemide had started wotking very quickly (really after only a few days) and it gave me a bit of "good restless" similar to what I image Ritalin might have done if I were to take it.
After my Moclobemide pooped out I am now just starting Nardil. I am having a few troublesome side effects which may pass but I am very interested in what you say about Parnate being energising espcially as I did extremely well on a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, reboxetine, apart from side effects.
I know Parnate is supposed to be the most energising or agitating of the MAOIs and I guess that this is due to the amphetamine-like metabolites which you describe.
My BIG question to you is ... does Nardil have these similar speed-like metabolites?
Also, do you suppose that Nardil increases norepinephrine significantly less than Parnate does?
If not then maybe I should get my psych-doc to switch me to Parnate.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 18, 2003, at 0:18:20
In reply to Does Nardil also have speed metabolites? » Ame Sans Vie, posted by don_bristol on September 17, 2003, at 4:17:33
> After my Moclobemide pooped out I am now just starting Nardil. I am having a few troublesome side effects which may pass...
Hang in there! I hear the side effects tend to subside after about six months.
> My BIG question to you is ... does Nardil have these similar speed-like metabolites?
There is a chemical class known as the phenethylamines (or phenylethylamines). Some of the most well known chemicals in this group are:
*(S)-1-aminobenzenepropanoic acid: l-phenylalanine (the common amino acid which is a stimulating precursor of catecholamines)
*3-Phenethylamine: PEA (the brain's "natural amphetamine"/the "chocolate amphetamine")
*(±)-1-Phenethylamine: Benzedrine (racemic amphetamine; dextro-levo-amphetamine)
*N-Benzyl-N,1-dimethylbenzeneethanamine hydrochloride: benzphetamine HCl (Didrex)
*(+)-N,1-Dimethylbenzeneethanamine hydrochloride: dextro-methamphetamine HCl (Desoxyn; the name "Desoxyn" comes from an alternate chemical name for d-meth, (+)-desoxyephedrine)
*(-)-N,1-Dimethylbenzeneethanamine hydrochloride: levo-methamphetamine HCl (the active ingredient in Vicks Inhalers; this is why so many kitchen chemists think they're getting "meth" by extracting the l-meth from Vicks -- it's meth they're getting, but it ain't the right kind, lol)
*3,4-Methylenedioxy-N-amphetamine: MDA ("Love Drug"; common in the 70's, often sold today as Ecstasy)
*3,4-Methylenedioxy-N-ethylamphetamine: MDE ("Eve", also often misrepresented as Ecstasy)
*3,4-Methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine: MDMA (Ecstasy)
*L-1-(1-Methylaminoethyl)benzyl alcohol: ephedrine
*(+)-1-(1-Methylaminoethyl)benzyl alcohol hydrochloride: pseudoephedrine HCl (Sudafed)
*(±)-1-Phenyl-2-piperidineacetic acid methyl ester hydrochloride: methylphenidate HCl (Ritalin/Concerta/Metadate)
*(+)-1-Phenyl-2-piperidineacetic acid methyl ester hydrochloride: dexmethylphenidate HCl (Focalin)
*4-Bromo-2,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine: 2C-B ("Nexus", a powerful psychedelic substituted amphetamine)
*2,5-Dimethoxy-4,1-dimethylbenzeneethanamine: known either as DOM or STP (another powerful psychedelic)As you can see, most phenethylamines are stimulants and/or psychedelics, and many of those that aren't are chemical precursors to those same stimulants/psychedelics. So it's a bit interesting that Effexor, Nardil and Parnate are phenethylamines as well:
Nardil (phenelzine sulfate): 2-Phenylethylhydrazine sulfate
Parnate (tranylcypromine sulfate): 2-(Diethylamino)propiophenone sulfate
Effexor (venlafaxine HCl): 1-[1-[(Dimethylamino)methyl] p-methoxybenzyl] cyclohexanol hydrochlorideAlso, one of Nardil's metabolites is PEA (3-Phenethylamine -- the natural amphetamine I mentioned above).
> Also, do you suppose that Nardil increases norepinephrine significantly less than Parnate does?
Well, I imagine that, in equivalent doses, they are comparable in their actions on MAO-A inhibition (and thus NE levels), but all my research has suggested that Parnate causes a flood of NE to be released. So, it may or may not increase NE levels more than Nardil, but it certainly increases the *activity* of NE more than Nardil.
I'd have thought that this flood of NE would make Parnate basically a self-contraindicated medication, but then I came across a study which demonstrated that reboxetine (a NE-reuptake inhibitor) *prevents* hypertensive crises on Parnate!
Posted by scud on October 1, 2003, at 4:59:17
In reply to Re: Does Nardil also have speed metabolites? » don_bristol, posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 18, 2003, at 0:18:20
phenylanine being a base for many sympathomemetic amines it would seem that is a likelyhood however as a MAO inhibitor it can cause hypertensive crisis when concurrently administrated with any of the sympathomemetic amines. Be careful while taking this substance, even phenylalanine itself can be a risk of interaction.
ref: www.phenylalanine.net
To people who are not phenylketonurics, there is by and large little danger from phenylalanine, especially if it's part of a normal diet. The exception are people on monoamine oxidase inhibiting drugs (MAO inhibitors), as phenylalanine is converted into the amino acid tyrosine. If the enzyme which breaks down monoamines such as tyrosine is inhibited, the body is flooded with substances that can cause extreme hypertension.
This is the end of the thread.
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