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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Psychquackery on August 25, 2003, at 17:18:44
Ive been depressed for almost six years now and dealing with psychiatry for the same amount of time. Ive had a particularly severe form of depression during this period. I dont have dysthymia, I dont have "housewife" depression or "woody allen" depression. I have the real thing.
Whether its been severe melancholia (I was almost catatonic at one point early in my depression) or a psychotic depression Im not sure. But its been bad...really really bad. Ive tried every single drug there is including MAOIs and was in the rTMS clinical trials.
Then in the last year or so I begin reading all this stuff about how they are finding that those patients with high blood cortisol levels frequently are poor responders to antidepressants. And I read the ECT literature...the ECT docs really do seem to understand severe depression. I guess they would as they are the ones who probably deal with the most severely depressed people. And all the literature Ive read says that currently available antidepressants are just not effective for certain subtypes of depression.
There are efforts to overcome this. Certain researchers claim that the anti-cortisol abortion drug RU-486 is effective for the most severe form of depression. And of course ECT is effective for it, but obviously that is not palatable for most it seems. I have come to the conclusion that psychiatry is pulling the wool over a lot of people's eyes. Sure, if you have dysthymia or some kind of mild depression a little prozac will fix you up. But what about the people who have the real thing? I dont think psychiatry is as good at fixing severe depression as they'd like us to know.
I think psychiatry is largely quackery and I dont think psychiatry is focused primarily on the severest mental disorders. Whereas it should be.
Igor
Posted by janejj on August 25, 2003, at 17:43:31
In reply to I think psychiatry is stringing some of us along, posted by Psychquackery on August 25, 2003, at 17:18:44
It seems that you may be trying to start an argument, apologies if you're not.
It seems that you think mild depression and dysthymia are not serious conditions. However if you don't treat these conditions they are destined to turn into full blown severe depression. So I would say they are every bit as important as severe depression. Infact dysthymia can be just a debilitating and harder to treat.
I understand that you are frustrated by the percieved lack of treatments avaliable to you, but please don't discount those that with other forms of depression. Depression is depression and we're lucky we have the treatments we do.
Janejj
Posted by gabbix2 on August 25, 2003, at 17:57:47
In reply to Re: I think psychiatry is stringing some of us along, posted by janejj on August 25, 2003, at 17:43:31
Posted by linkadge on August 25, 2003, at 18:22:36
In reply to well said! (nm) » janejj, posted by gabbix2 on August 25, 2003, at 17:57:47
I don't mean to offend you but...
1) You really and - *honesty* - do not
believe that *anyone* has experienced
depression the same way you have.2) You think that there is only *one* *true*
depression and that is the one that
*you've* had.3) You assume that if you didn't respond to
prozac, then *nobody* will - or a least
nobody who has had *real* depression.4) You assume that people who respond to things
that you didn't are flufs, not a person
who has experienced *real* depression.
It *is* possible that two people (who respond to two different treatments) (with neither responding to the others' treatment) have experienced the same level of depression.
Some people's cure is a lot easier found, call it cruel misfortune but it *is* possible.What you are saying with your cortisol theory
is sound, but you are throwing in tones of other things, that insult many people on this board.
Linkadge
Posted by Psychquackery on August 25, 2003, at 18:46:56
In reply to you don't think that...., posted by linkadge on August 25, 2003, at 18:22:36
> I don't mean to offend you but...
>
>
> 1) You really and - *honesty* - do not
> believe that *anyone* has experienced
> depression the same way you have.
>
> 2) You think that there is only *one* *true*
> depression and that is the one that
> *you've* had.
>
> 3) You assume that if you didn't respond to
> prozac, then *nobody* will - or a least
> nobody who has had *real* depression.
>
> 4) You assume that people who respond to things
> that you didn't are flufs, not a person
> who has experienced *real* depression.
>
>
> It *is* possible that two people (who respond to two different treatments) (with neither responding to the others' treatment) have experienced the same level of depression.
> Some people's cure is a lot easier found, call it cruel misfortune but it *is* possible.
>
> What you are saying with your cortisol theory
> is sound, but you are throwing in tones of other things, that insult many people on this board.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
All Im saying is that there are a substantial number of people with severe forms of major depression for whom the existing drugs DO NOT WORK. And psychiatry isnt doing enough to help these individuals. And they create a big lie or fascade that "you will be OK" if you just take your prozac or similar such monoamine type antidepressant and go to psychotherapy. Its a lie and a lot of longtime oldtimer depressives have figured it out their own.Even some psychiatrists are saying this very thing. In the article I posted above by shock doc Max Fink, he says that those with psychotic depression or severe melancholia respond poorly to antidepressants alone. He says ECT is the best treatment for this form of depression. Why is there such denial of this in the depressive population and why does nobody want to talk about it or discuss it? Fear of electricity? Fear of ECT? Laziness?
I read in another article recently by psychopharmacologist Alan Schatzberg of Stanford University who claims the same thing as Fink. That a certain percentage of depressives with high cortisol levels tend to do poorly on conventional antidepressants, but do well on ECT.
Why is psychiatry not working harder to target this specific subgroup of depressives? Who have the most severe form of depression? And are the most chronically disabled. Psychiatry and the drug industry just want to continue developing BULLSHIT monoamine antidepressants or STUPID goofy things like rTMS that dont work. In short, WHERE IS THE BEEF? There is no beef, because psychiatry sucks.
Igor
Posted by linkadge on August 25, 2003, at 19:03:20
In reply to Re: you don't think that...., posted by Psychquackery on August 25, 2003, at 18:46:56
It is a fact that some people with severe depression have responded well (and continue
to respond) to Prozac and similar antidepressants - thats a hard fact.I am not afraid of ECT at all.
But the real reason that I do not want
ECT is because SSRI's have worked well
for me in the past. If AD's ever stopped
working then sure I would get ECT why
the heck not ???But I know that you are thinking that my depression was somehow not severe. And
that is something that cannot be proven.What makes you tick psyhquackery? Why are
you undermining the treatments that have
helped so many? I don't ask in a condescending
way, I really am curious.I don't mind your theories at all. But a little saying goes that 'a curse for one is a blessing for another' you really have to understand that the source of all our problems may not be the same.
Linkadge
Posted by Francesco on August 25, 2003, at 19:41:44
In reply to Re: you don't think that...., posted by Psychquackery on August 25, 2003, at 18:46:56
What's your point ? Why don't you try ECT if you think it could help you ?
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 25, 2003, at 20:00:55
In reply to you don't think that...., posted by linkadge on August 25, 2003, at 18:22:36
> 1) You really and - *honesty* - do not
> believe that *anyone* has experienced
> depression the same way you have...Please be sensitive to the feelings of others -- even if yours are hurt -- and don't jump to conclusions about them, thanks.
Bob
Posted by jay on August 25, 2003, at 20:25:21
In reply to Re: please be civil » linkadge, posted by Dr. Bob on August 25, 2003, at 20:00:55
Doc Bob..sorry again, but I take offense to Psychquackery's statement:
"And they create a big lie or fascade that "you will be OK" if you just take your prozac or similar such monoamine type antidepressant and go to psychotherapy. Its a lie and a lot of longtime oldtimer depressives have figured it out their own."
..because it insults us taking meds and/or doing psychotherapy. (It's assuming we are all unenlightened...docile.)I am sorry I am being a pain in the rear, but treatment with PBC's must be atleast fair, right? I actually bring this up only because you gave Linkadge a PBC, and not Psychquackery. I know...re-direct to PBA..
Jay
Posted by linkadge on August 26, 2003, at 7:05:28
In reply to Re: please be civil...again... » Dr. Bob, posted by jay on August 25, 2003, at 20:25:21
I have no problem, when you put the quantifier in.
But when you say that all people with severe depression are not going to respond to monoamine AD's then thats just not true.
Linkadge
Posted by Bill L on August 26, 2003, at 12:02:16
In reply to I think psychiatry is stringing some of us along, posted by Psychquackery on August 25, 2003, at 17:18:44
Some people try a lot of drugs but not a high enough dose. I am doing great on 40 mg of Lexapro although most poeple need only 10 mg. My depression was extremely severe before drugs. As in suicidal.
This is the end of the thread.
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