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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by DSCH on August 18, 2003, at 12:30:21
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and B6, posted by irishcatholic on August 18, 2003, at 9:22:07
> I'm definitely hypoglycemic.
> By biggest problem is waking up after 4-5 hrs sleep and feeling brain dead.
> Any suggestions on what would be good to eat before bedtime?
> I've experimented a lot with little success.As I see it, these are the rules for the hypoglycemic/hyperinsulinist/hyperserotonin person:
Avoid carbohydrates like the plague, especially sugar and starch.
Avoid tryptophan-rich foods like poultry, fish, cottage cheese, bananas, eggs, nuts, wheat germ, avocados, milk, cheese, and legumes.
The problem is this doesn't leave you with much left. :-(
Have you had a glucose tolerance test?
Posted by freedom2001 on August 18, 2003, at 22:22:16
In reply to Tryptophan and B6 » Edgefield, posted by DSCH on August 17, 2003, at 22:36:06
> I think I have good hypothesis for my after-dinner crash tonight. Salmon is indeed tryptophan-rich and I have been taking B6 supplements, this would assist enzymatic activity that forms serotonin.
>
> I will ditch the B6 and take C instead to help out my norepinepherine. I think I've being making enough dopamine.
Hi, how does C help out in norepinepherine?
Does C increase it? If yes, wouldn't it be bad for OCD? I've been taking about 2,000 mg C daily to lower my histamine levels for OCD.Regards,
freedom.
Posted by freedom2001 on August 18, 2003, at 22:23:35
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and B6, posted by irishcatholic on August 18, 2003, at 9:22:07
> I'm definitely hypoglycemic.
> By biggest problem is waking up after 4-5 hrs sleep and feeling brain dead.
> Any suggestions on what would be good to eat before bedtime?
> I've experimented a lot with little success.Hi, I have OCD.
I read that hypoglycemic is related to OCD. How do I know if I am hypoglycemic?
Thanks and best regards,
freedom.
Posted by DSCH on August 18, 2003, at 23:01:13
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and B6 » DSCH, posted by freedom2001 on August 18, 2003, at 22:22:16
> > I think I have good hypothesis for my after-dinner crash tonight. Salmon is indeed tryptophan-rich and I have been taking B6 supplements, this would assist enzymatic activity that forms serotonin.
> >
> > I will ditch the B6 and take C instead to help out my norepinepherine. I think I've being making enough dopamine.
>
>
> Hi, how does C help out in norepinepherine?
> Does C increase it? If yes, wouldn't it be bad for OCD? I've been taking about 2,000 mg C daily to lower my histamine levels for OCD.
>
> Regards,
> freedom.
>Vitamin C assists the enzyme that turns excess dopamine into norepinepherine according to Ray Sahelian.
http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_13.html
Have a look at Fig. 13.1.
I'm not sure just how solid this is.
Anyways, for OCD, Daniel Amen sees it reflected in SPECT imaging as increased metabolic activity in the cingualate gyrus and basal ganglia.
http://www.brainplace.com/bp/atlas/ch13.asp
Giving the serotonin system an assist (normally with a SSRI) usually is what helps out in these cases in his experience. He gives a diet and vitamin approach here.
http://www.brainplace.com/bp/supplements/default.asp
If you are not overweight, quite physically active, and have no history of diabetes in your family, it might be worth trying cutting back on red meats, substituting them with poultry or fish, and eating them along with plenty of complex carbohydrates. Getting your blood insulin up a bit assists tryptophan across the BBB alowing more serotonin to be made.
B6 assists the enzyme that turns 5-HTP into serotonin (as well as the one that turns L-dopa into dopamine). (see Fig. 13.2 on the Mind Boosters page)
Posted by DSCH on August 18, 2003, at 23:08:12
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and B6 » irishcatholic, posted by freedom2001 on August 18, 2003, at 22:23:35
> > I'm definitely hypoglycemic.
> > By biggest problem is waking up after 4-5 hrs sleep and feeling brain dead.
> > Any suggestions on what would be good to eat before bedtime?
> > I've experimented a lot with little success.
>
> Hi, I have OCD.
>
> I read that hypoglycemic is related to OCD. How do I know if I am hypoglycemic?
>
> Thanks and best regards,
> freedom.I rather doubt this. Hypoglycemia is more likely to masquerade as inattentive or limbic ADD IMO. Do you get drowsy after meals?
Posted by DSCH on August 18, 2003, at 23:23:03
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and B6, posted by irishcatholic on August 18, 2003, at 9:22:07
I didn't take my GNC B6 50 today and I survived a BIG chicken and spinach salad for dinner, just got a bit drowsy and was able to IM/surf on my computer rather than collapse on the bed. After a while I got up and drove about some and didn't notice any impairment.
I will be on the lookout for signs that my dopamine and norepinepherine are declining from less B6 (I still get some via a Centrum Silver in the morning).
Tomorrow GNC Ester-C gets added into the mix. I have become a familar sight at the local GNC. LOL
So, I'd say not to go overboard taking B6. About a half hour before dinner take some L-PA or DLPA to get the smaller and more mobile DA and NE precursor amino acid into your system and then be strict about limiting carb intake. Taking C along with the PA might help too.
Hope that helps.
Posted by DSCH on August 18, 2003, at 23:29:55
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and B6, posted by irishcatholic on August 18, 2003, at 9:22:07
Also, give yourself at least three to four hours after dinner before you go to bed if you can manage that.
Posted by McPac on August 19, 2003, at 0:10:53
In reply to Vitamin C and Norepinepherine, posted by DSCH on August 18, 2003, at 23:01:13
Are increased norepinephrine levels bad for OCD?
Read that Doc Amen thought Remeron was a good drug for ocd with add.....I know Remeron has worked for some ocd'ers but IF Rem increases NE (and it does, part. at higher levels, though at which dose I'd LOVE to know, anybody?) and IF (I say IF) NE is bad for ocd'ers, I don't know how Rem could work for ocd?
Posted by DSCH on August 19, 2003, at 7:34:58
In reply to Re: Vitamin C and Norepinepherine, posted by McPac on August 19, 2003, at 0:10:53
> Are increased norepinephrine levels bad for OCD?
> Read that Doc Amen thought Remeron was a good drug for ocd with add.....I know Remeron has worked for some ocd'ers but IF Rem increases NE (and it does, part. at higher levels, though at which dose I'd LOVE to know, anybody?) and IF (I say IF) NE is bad for ocd'ers, I don't know how Rem could work for ocd?Where did you come up with Amen recommending Remeron for OCD!?
http://www.brainplace.com/bp/prescriptions/default.asp
(See "Cingulate prescriptions")
http://www.brainplace.com/bp/atlas/ch13.asp
Also look at my back and forth with Francesco. On SLS's chart Remeron is a 5HT and NE *antagonist*. 5HT antagonism would seem to be contraindicated!
Posted by McPac on August 19, 2003, at 13:12:04
In reply to Remeron » McPac, posted by DSCH on August 19, 2003, at 7:34:58
"Also look at my back and forth with Francesco"
>>>>>>>>>> I can't find that thread, anyway that's where I saw the Amen suggestion, it was regarding overfocused add w/ ocd (thought I recall him sugg. Effexor and then mentioned other drugs, one being Rem? If Rem was a suggestion for ADD + ocd, then what's the diff. if it's OCD + add (unless the order changes things)..........anyway, Rem HAS helped ocd for some folks...I was communicating in the last year or so w/ a Stanford researcher who conducted the Rem for OCD trials---she said that Rem was successful for ocd in the trials (obviously not on ALL patients)....mostly successful at the higher dose range (typical for ocd)....bummer for me as I can't stand Rem at higher doses....take care!!!
Posted by Caleb462 on August 21, 2003, at 10:04:47
In reply to Remeron » McPac, posted by DSCH on August 19, 2003, at 7:34:58
> Also look at my back and forth with Francesco. On SLS's chart Remeron is a 5HT and NE *antagonist*. 5HT antagonism would seem to be contraindicated!
>No, no, no! Selective 5-HT antagonism is not contraindicated with OCD. You have to realize that the end result of SRI therapy in OCD is reduced activity at certain sertonin receptors, thus antagonism of 5-HT2/5-HT3 simply mimics the final response one would achieve with an SRI.
Also, the "gold standard" OCD medication, Anafranil, is itself a 5-HT2a ANTAGONIST.
One more thing, the adrenergic system is tricky, and remeron's antagonistic effect at alpha-2 adrenergic receptors actually increases NE release.
McPac is correct, there have been studies showing Remeron as an effective drug for OCD.
Posted by Caleb462 on August 21, 2003, at 10:08:55
In reply to Re: Vitamin C and Norepinepherine, posted by McPac on August 19, 2003, at 0:10:53
> Are increased norepinephrine levels bad for OCD?
> Read that Doc Amen thought Remeron was a good drug for ocd with add.....I know Remeron has worked for some ocd'ers but IF Rem increases NE (and it does, part. at higher levels, though at which dose I'd LOVE to know, anybody?) and IF (I say IF) NE is bad for ocd'ers, I don't know how Rem could work for ocd?Well think about it McPac, Anafranil is quite noradrenergic as well as serotonergic, Nardil increases NE.. yet these meds have been shown to help OCD. I don't think you can say positively that one neurotransmitter or another is inherently bad for OCD. It's quite feasible that some OCDers would have a bad reaction to increased NE, but this can't be said for everyone.
Posted by DSCH on August 21, 2003, at 11:47:42
In reply to Re: Remeron, posted by Caleb462 on August 21, 2003, at 10:04:47
>
> > Also look at my back and forth with Francesco. On SLS's chart Remeron is a 5HT and NE *antagonist*. 5HT antagonism would seem to be contraindicated!
> >
>
> No, no, no! Selective 5-HT antagonism is not contraindicated with OCD. You have to realize that the end result of SRI therapy in OCD is reduced activity at certain sertonin receptors, thus antagonism of 5-HT2/5-HT3 simply mimics the final response one would achieve with an SRI.
>
> Also, the "gold standard" OCD medication, Anafranil, is itself a 5-HT2a ANTAGONIST.
>
> One more thing, the adrenergic system is tricky, and remeron's antagonistic effect at alpha-2 adrenergic receptors actually increases NE release.
>
> McPac is correct, there have been studies showing Remeron as an effective drug for OCD.I thank you for the information. However, it would be nice to have it delivered with less adrenal content. ;-)
Posted by McPac on August 21, 2003, at 16:08:23
In reply to Re: Remeron, posted by Caleb462 on August 21, 2003, at 10:04:47
You RULE dude!
So does Ace (I miss that character!)
Posted by Caleb462 on August 21, 2003, at 16:16:30
In reply to Correction » Caleb462, posted by DSCH on August 21, 2003, at 11:47:42
> >
> > > Also look at my back and forth with Francesco. On SLS's chart Remeron is a 5HT and NE *antagonist*. 5HT antagonism would seem to be contraindicated!
> > >
> >
> > No, no, no! Selective 5-HT antagonism is not contraindicated with OCD. You have to realize that the end result of SRI therapy in OCD is reduced activity at certain sertonin receptors, thus antagonism of 5-HT2/5-HT3 simply mimics the final response one would achieve with an SRI.
> >
> > Also, the "gold standard" OCD medication, Anafranil, is itself a 5-HT2a ANTAGONIST.
> >
> > One more thing, the adrenergic system is tricky, and remeron's antagonistic effect at alpha-2 adrenergic receptors actually increases NE release.
> >
> > McPac is correct, there have been studies showing Remeron as an effective drug for OCD.
>
> I thank you for the information. However, it would be nice to have it delivered with less adrenal content. ;-)
>Haha.. sorry. No offense intended.
Posted by Caleb462 on August 21, 2003, at 16:17:29
In reply to Caleb, Re: Remeron, posted by McPac on August 21, 2003, at 16:08:23
> You RULE dude!
> So does Ace (I miss that character!)Yeah I miss him too. It would be especially helpful to have him around now that I've started Nardil.
Posted by McPac on August 21, 2003, at 16:30:38
In reply to Re: Caleb, Re: Remeron, posted by Caleb462 on August 21, 2003, at 16:17:29
"It would be especially helpful to have him around now that I've started Nardil"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Caleb, you can e-mail Ace...he left his e-mail address to others here....I can't remember it but I'm sure someone here has it...maybe Ame???
How are you feeling on the Nardil so far?
Take care bro!!!!!!!!!
Posted by matthhhh on August 21, 2003, at 20:03:21
In reply to Caleb, Re: Caleb, Re: Remeron, posted by McPac on August 21, 2003, at 16:30:38
Anyone notice any benefits of tryptophan over 5 htp. I ve taken 5 htp didnt really do anything for me, but ive heard that tryptophan is an alternative. Does anyone know?
Posted by Caleb462 on August 21, 2003, at 21:16:16
In reply to Caleb, Re: Caleb, Re: Remeron, posted by McPac on August 21, 2003, at 16:30:38
> How are you feeling on the Nardil so far?
> Take care bro!!!!!!!!!Okay... well, truthfully I'm feeling horrible - but not because of the Nardil, I got on the Nardil BECAUSE I was feeling horrible. All my problems/symptoms are in full force and I've been completely freaking out lately.
I've noticed some sedation and some GI problems from the Nardil, nothing major... I feel like this med is my last resort, and if it doesn't work.... ugh, I don't even wanna think about it.
How are you doing?
Posted by McPac on August 22, 2003, at 15:31:56
In reply to Re: Caleb, Re: Caleb, Re: Remeron, posted by Caleb462 on August 21, 2003, at 21:16:16
"All my problems/symptoms are in full force and I've been completely freaking out lately"
>>>>>>>>>>> Caleb, what symptoms are really bad? OCD? depression? anxiety?
Posted by Caleb462 on August 23, 2003, at 12:06:24
In reply to Caleb, Re: Caleb, Re: Caleb, Re: Remeron, posted by McPac on August 22, 2003, at 15:31:56
> "All my problems/symptoms are in full force and I've been completely freaking out lately"
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Caleb, what symptoms are really bad? OCD? depression? anxiety?
>
>
>Primarily depression and anxiety. OCD hasn't been screwing me up to much lately, actually... though it is certainly still there. I've suprisingly been feeling OK today... whether its a lessening of effexor withdrawl, some initial benefits of nardil, or a lingering hydrocodone buzz... I can't say.
Posted by McPac on August 26, 2003, at 21:20:38
In reply to Re: Caleb, Re: Caleb, Re: Caleb, Re: Remeron, posted by Caleb462 on August 23, 2003, at 12:06:24
Hope that Nardil starts to work its magic for you soon Caleb. Effexor withdrawal---I'm sure THAT ain't fun!
Posted by Caleb462 on August 26, 2003, at 22:13:23
In reply to Caleb, Re: Caleb, Re: Caleb, Re: Remeron, posted by McPac on August 26, 2003, at 21:20:38
> Hope that Nardil starts to work its magic for you soon Caleb. Effexor withdrawal---I'm sure THAT ain't fun!
Me too, and thanks for the support.
And no... effexor withdrawal certainly is not fun... man, I was a wreck, physically, mentally and emotionally. I've found that anti-depressant withdrawal makes me a very, very angry person.
But things seem to be on the right track now.. I've started college, and having something to do everyday helps too I think.
Posted by McPac on August 27, 2003, at 23:40:03
In reply to Re: Caleb, Re: Caleb, Re: Caleb, Re: Remeron, posted by Caleb462 on August 23, 2003, at 12:06:24
Hey Caleb,
did the ssri meds ever do much good for you? (just wondering because with your symptoms ---depression/anxiety/ocd --- ssri's 'can' work very well for some--- did they ever work well for you?)
Later!
Posted by matthhhh on August 28, 2003, at 6:34:55
In reply to Re: Remeron, posted by Caleb462 on August 21, 2003, at 10:04:47
are u saying that ssris and sris result in decreased activity of the serotonin system thereby increasing the symptoms of ocd?
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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