![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 354 to 378 of 948. Go back in thread:
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 13:53:31
In reply to Re: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP! » fluffy, posted by Ron Hill on August 7, 2003, at 13:12:50
Hi Everyone,
I'm back from my vacation. Went to Katia's neck of the woods, SF Bay Area where we used to live. While it was great fun to see old friends and hubby's family it SURE is wonderful to be back home. Everytime I go away, even for a short time, I suffer incredible anxieties that I'm going to return to a smoking heap of cinders for a house and all my cats flattened in the road (we have a fine cat/house sitter, the road in question is a quiet country one, so gimme a break). All kitties were purring and happy, house was fine. But Oh God, IT COULD HAPPEN!! When am I going to calm down, when am I going to learn to trust? My husband just 'puts light around them' and goes his merry way, trusting that all is well. This is unimaginable to me. Sometimes I think it's my anxiety and hypervigilance that keeps the universe from blowing up, but of course I'm wrong (aren't I?).About sleeplessness, what is making more sense than anything else I've come across is that we of the mood impaired seem to be suffering from a reversed day/night adrenal hormonal response. Our adrenal cortisol which should be high in the morning (it eventually goes on to make norepineprine, dopamine) is high at night. Our adrenal DHEA which brings down cortisol is low at night. DHEA repairs which should be happening at night, and cortisol breaks down which should happen during the day. Having these cycles out of sync causes major problems. A theory is that adrenal stress is the major contributor. Our poor hyperalert selves perceive threat everywhere and the adrenals pump out adrenaline to run from those imaginary tigers. Eventually the adrenals can't handle the load and other systems have to take over, like our thyroid and reproductive hormonal systems. Continual cortisol produced by the adrenals eventually converts to a form that in high enough amounts, become toxic to the limbic brain area where our stress and hormonal regulating structures are found. Eventually these brain structures suffer damage and can't efficiently communicate with each other, are not able to regulate the very delicate hormonal balance entrusted to them (neurotransmitters and peptides are part of this hormonal biosphere). When this system gets disregulated, insomnia is only one of the signs. Even more unfortunate is that it becomes a self perpetuating loop, creating that very distinctive tired/wired feeling you can probably relate to. A major indicator is getting that second wind after 10pm, but feeling like a mack truck collision in the am.
Meds can knock us out, can interrupt the stress loop, but won't solve the problem. Certain natural substances help. About 6-10 grams Vitamin C divided daily is crucial. But even natural meds won't do the trick - it's more like taking away than adding more stuff. More important is to avoid any kind of concentrated sugar after 6pm, especially alcohol (waaaaah!!), sweets, anything stimulating like evening news, sitting in front of the computer monitor after 10pm, coffee after 4pm, reading murder mysteries before bed. Basically lights out by 11pm (light stimulates cortisol and reduces melatonin). Whatever exercise you can tolerate in the am, just get your butt moving. Terribly boring stuff, but so is insomnia. We know that stress is a killer, pure and simple, and our highly attuned nervous systems are warning us that we have to do whatever is in our power to reduce it. Interestingly, meditation raises DHEA naturally and lowers cortisol and so does exercise (in the morning). You don't have to be in your 50's to finally realize, jeeze, wish I'd made these lifestyle changes earlier! But take my wizened word as Gospel truth - you'll wish you had.
I am doing so much better, thank you so much one and all for helping me through my recent dark times. Isn't it true that every time we think that this is the BIG ONE we'll NEVER recover from, and we always do. Maybe somewhat scarred, but at least we weren't sucked into that black hole like we're sure we'll be every danged time. I even weaned off of Ambien (my refill didn't arrive in time before vacation so I didn't have much choice). After a few rough nights, but with the help of valium, I'm now sleeping naturally again. I even wonder if my improved mood has something to do with getting off Ambien. It was hard to follow the above suggestions of low stress/lights out by 11 while on a whirlwind vacation, but I mostly adhered to it and I do think it made a huge difference. Dear friends, hang in there (Katia, please, please, please try Depakote. If lithium makes you nervous, then there are others you can try. You can't imagine the relief you'll get when you're on a med that helps you find the eye of the storm. You can always go off it!). If it weren't for my Babble-Buds, and what I've learned on this board, I would be dead by now, and of that I have no doubts. So if I can gain a temporary respite, believe me, SO CAN YOU!! And from this vantage point, a temporary respite is a great gift and is enough to keep me going and growing. - Barbara
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 14:12:44
In reply to Re: Med free and misdirect » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 6, 2003, at 2:23:45
Katia,
Personal question, but did you have an abusive or stressful childhood? I certainly did and think that things were miswired back then. I remember a poll going around on this board a while back about that question, and it surprised me how many did not have difficult early years. Your hell sounds awful and sorry you had to go through that. Did anything trigger it that you're aware of? Could it trigger it again?As far as the spiritual study and practice, it doesn't cure us and isn't too available when we're in the worst of it, but I can't imagine where I'd be without it. When I'm a little better and realize others have gone through it and came through it stronger, it comforts me and helps me be better when I'm better (but not when I'm not). I keep hoping one day I'll believe it when I really need it.
>
> Prior to starting the medication last summer, every second was eternal hell for me. I had completely lost my mind - howling on the floor, making noises I've never heard before, crawling from the bed to bathroom and it taking one hour, marking myself with my fingernails, crying crying crying. And in the midst of these three intense months, I listened to so many tapes, i.e. Ram Dass's lectures/talks, The Power of Now - Tolle, and Pema Chondron's "When Things Fall Apart".
Posted by katia on August 15, 2003, at 16:17:22
In reply to Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 14:12:44
Welcome back Barbara! I missed you! How was your holiday?
> Katia,
> Personal question, but did you have an abusive or stressful childhood?I think my childhood was stressful because I was so sensitive. The 70s were good, but when I hit 11 in 1981 that's when trouble started for me. What maybe was extremely traumatic for me was nothing for the next guy. and then it cycles and compounds each other - trauma more sensitivity, more depression, more trauma etc.
(what feels like trauma).
>>Did anything trigger it that you're aware of? Could it trigger it again?
Last summer, yes and no. I was already in a deep depression as i had moved to Scotland to be with my then boyfriend. I was falling deeper and deeper the longer I stayed there. In the end, I found out i was pregnant and he sent me back in the midst of a deep terrible depression with a one way ticket and wouldn't talk to me anymore. I had to stay at a friend's house - who is no longer a friend. I nearly lost all my marbles then. So yes the pregnancy and wonderful boyfriend I had triggered me to go as low as I did, but I was already in a clinical depression - unrecognized as such and untreated.
> As far as the spiritual study and practice, it doesn't cure us and isn't too available when we're in the worst of it, but I can't imagine where I'd be without it. When I'm a little better and realize others have gone through it and came through it stronger, it comforts me and helps me be better when I'm better (but not when I'm not). I keep hoping one day I'll believe it when I really need it.ditto.
I'm having a hard time at the moment. I have begun taking depakote and it's made me a bit wired. I feel out of control. I went out last night and stayed up past the sun rise and did things I shouldn't have done and now I'm (as you said) crawling into my hole cringing at my life and embarrassed at my behavior - wondering when all this craziness will end.
yes, I know I should contact my pdoc, but what am i to say? I'm too embarrassed. and he'd probably just say, wait a few more days and see how you feel. my body feels toxic. I feel awful.
I'm sick of this!
i'll just crawl back into my hole now.
Katia
> > Prior to starting the medication last summer, every second was eternal hell for me. I had completely lost my mind - howling on the floor, making noises I've never heard before, crawling from the bed to bathroom and it taking one hour, marking myself with my fingernails, crying crying crying. And in the midst of these three intense months, I listened to so many tapes, i.e. Ram Dass's lectures/talks, The Power of Now - Tolle, and Pema Chondron's "When Things Fall Apart".
>
Posted by Ron Hill on August 15, 2003, at 19:45:52
In reply to Re: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP!, posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 13:53:31
Hi Barbara,
> I'm back from my vacation.
Welcome home. Glad you're back.
> I am doing so much better, thank you so much one and all for helping me through my recent dark times.
That's very good news BarbCat.
> Isn't it true that every time we think that this is the BIG ONE we'll NEVER recover from, and we always do.
Yes, exactly. It's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel when the surrounding fog and darkness appear impenetrable.
As a bipolar, I relate to almost everything that you describe in your writings.
-- Ron
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 20:16:52
In reply to Re: Katia » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 15, 2003, at 16:17:22
> Welcome back Barbara! I missed you! How was your holiday?
>
It was good, but very do, do, do. We used to live in Marin County and have alot of friends there and my husband's family, so every hour of the day was packed. My husband can handle it all but I no longer can and had to just say no which I used to feel guilty about - a malingerer, party pooper, blah blah. But fooey on anyone who doesn't like it. But I did get to see the Oregon Vortex 'House of Mystery' on the drive back. Weird. I still feel unsettled from being in that magnetic vortex.I'm so sorry for your Scotland sorrows. That's immense stuff, Katia. Did you know that pregnancy is often the triggering event for bipolar illnes? It was for me when I had a stillborn child many years ago. I always had depression but pregnancy after-effects brought on the mixed states stuff compounded by my own drastic life events at the time. Have you ever gotten a thorough full hormonal workup? You won't get the tests or proper attention on this from your usual medical channels. I'm a big proponent of good naturapathic healthcare, but I realize Calif doesn't license them.
Toxic body - yes, yes, yes!! I know this well. You just FEEL like there's something physically wrong and it's not just all in your psyche. There IS more to it than brain chemistry! For me, fibromyalgia is my body's response and it is HELL, but at least I know what I've got and what do work towards. It's different for everyone, but it IS in the body just as much as in the brain. I know you've been through it all, turned over every stone, but there's more stones left to uncover when you're feeling a little better. Pursue this, Katia. Not now, you've got too much to deal with, but later when your life force is a little brighter. Listen closely to your body even though you may not get many answers right away. But it's speaking to you and saying 'I'm toxic, dammit! HELP!!'. It will eventually tell you how to help.
I can't stress this enough - you will not get the answers from your pdoc, no matter how good he/she may be at tweaking your brain chemistry. But this exploration is long term and in the meantime, he's got to have some intervention up his sleeve to get you feeling better NOW. You don't have to go through this constant misery, Katia. You'll feel better eventually if Depakote is going to work, but there are other meds that will relieve this agony in the short term. I'm a big fan of benzos and don't believe they exacerbate depression one bit, in my experience. They've brought me out of the anxiety basket case many times until I could manage on my own. Keep bugging him, Katia. That's what he's being very well paid for - to help YOU.
No one knows better than you what staying up all night partying will do. You don't even have to be bipolar to feel like wrung out dog turd the next day, so crawling into a hole is probably the best thing you can do - you know, 'sleep it off'. I absolutely LOVE alcohol and give in to an orgy with it occasionally, but oh boy, do I ever pay! Talk about poison! I've recently made it quite OK with myself to stuff myself with valium, neurontin, anything that will knock me out and put me on a mental retreat. I'll do it for as long as I need, just lay in bed, read, sleep, cry, journal. With enough help from my med friends I'm able to just slip into a restful fuzz and heal my battered soul a little. I know when to take up my pallet and walk again when the worst is over. Afterwards I drink alot of water to flush things out, but in my case, I need that rest and recovery or the stress loop gets worse. And bleagh! to anyone who doesn't approve of this strategy, 'cause it works for me.
Please don't be hard on yourself for slipping. Just think of it as another colorful entry in your book of life. Drink lots of water and take lots of Vitamin C and some B vites. Tomorrow will look better. You're in my prayers, Katia. - Barbara
Posted by katia on August 15, 2003, at 23:03:47
In reply to Re: Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 20:16:52
Thanks Barbara I appreciate that long post. I really need to not drink until I can get this mood/med thing down. not even one as Ron says. It knocks me off balance -whatever that is - and after one, two looks ok and then just three etc. It's doing strange things to my mood now since the depakote - everything gets exaggerated and it's going towards the good, high, exhuberant, need more stimulation way. This'll be hard. maybe I'll join a support group b/c it is not working for me, to drink.
I think the depakote could work, but it's not working with the alcohol. i need to give it a go sans spirits, unfortunately :-(. I feel better for it tho'.
thanks again,
Katia
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 16, 2003, at 11:22:16
In reply to Re: Katia » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 15, 2003, at 23:03:47
Yes, it's very hard to not drink. One rather large glass of wine will make me feel 100% better immediately - the only substance that will do this. But like you, the next glass is always waiting, the initial glass's rosy effects fade pretty quickly and before long I've had the whole bottle. The next day I feel horrible, like crap, depressed, toxic, ashamed, weak. It's not worth it and every time I swear I've learned my lesson and give it up for awhile. The difference abstinence makes is remarkable - my meds work, I think clearly, my energy level is great, my meditations are like cool clear water.
But I always seem to succumb eventually, thinking 'I've been good, I deserve it' and that I can stick to just one glass of that wonderfully buttery Chardonnay I got for such a deal at Costco. Not! Part of the problem is that I drink it at night which violates the very important rule of no concentrated sugars at night. That just perpetuates the cortisol disregulation problem we all seem to suffer from. So maybe a support group will help. My girfriend, who had a very serious drinking problem I only knew about afterwards, has had her life transformed by AA. Not just for the alcohol problem, but in every area of her life. She loves it and now has a close supporting group of friends out of it and 5 years of sobriety. Her self pride is a joy to be around. I'm not ready to go that route and would like to find another way to go, but so far I've been able to stick to my resolve to have wine just twice a month. Knowing about that concentrated sugar/cortisol connection has really helped. Good luck on this, Katia. It may be the 'magic bullet' for you. But goodness, it's hard and getting help is probably the wisest choice since you're feeling so down. - Barbara
> Thanks Barbara I appreciate that long post. I really need to not drink until I can get this mood/med thing down. not even one as Ron says. It knocks me off balance -whatever that is - and after one, two looks ok and then just three etc. It's doing strange things to my mood now since the depakote - everything gets exaggerated and it's going towards the good, high, exhuberant, need more stimulation way. This'll be hard. maybe I'll join a support group b/c it is not working for me, to drink.
> I think the depakote could work, but it's not working with the alcohol. i need to give it a go sans spirits, unfortunately :-(. I feel better for it tho'.
> thanks again,
> Katia
Posted by katia on August 16, 2003, at 15:49:40
In reply to Re: Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 16, 2003, at 11:22:16
Hi Barbara,
There are other ways to go that are drinking support groups other than AA. AA's philosophy puts me off. I know it helps people, but I've been repelled to it, not drawn. I know of another group in the area that I'll start going to. At least to look at what's going on for me. It's been my way of self-medicating over the years and now that I've decided to really get proper help = medications, I really need to let this one go. One, to see if meds will work and See what can happen when I do have all my marbles - that's also frightening. But it's time let go of the old dusty cloak that doesn't serve me. And drinking is part of that and I know it.
Even tho' I know that draw of the buttery chardonnay!
It just takes courage to let this last piece go!
Katia> Yes, it's very hard to not drink. One rather large glass of wine will make me feel 100% better immediately - the only substance that will do this. But like you, the next glass is always waiting, the initial glass's rosy effects fade pretty quickly and before long I've had the whole bottle. The next day I feel horrible, like crap, depressed, toxic, ashamed, weak. It's not worth it and every time I swear I've learned my lesson and give it up for awhile. The difference abstinence makes is remarkable - my meds work, I think clearly, my energy level is great, my meditations are like cool clear water.
>
> But I always seem to succumb eventually, thinking 'I've been good, I deserve it' and that I can stick to just one glass of that wonderfully buttery Chardonnay I got for such a deal at Costco. Not! Part of the problem is that I drink it at night which violates the very important rule of no concentrated sugars at night. That just perpetuates the cortisol disregulation problem we all seem to suffer from. So maybe a support group will help. My girfriend, who had a very serious drinking problem I only knew about afterwards, has had her life transformed by AA. Not just for the alcohol problem, but in every area of her life. She loves it and now has a close supporting group of friends out of it and 5 years of sobriety. Her self pride is a joy to be around. I'm not ready to go that route and would like to find another way to go, but so far I've been able to stick to my resolve to have wine just twice a month. Knowing about that concentrated sugar/cortisol connection has really helped. Good luck on this, Katia. It may be the 'magic bullet' for you. But goodness, it's hard and getting help is probably the wisest choice since you're feeling so down. - Barbara
>
> > Thanks Barbara I appreciate that long post. I really need to not drink until I can get this mood/med thing down. not even one as Ron says. It knocks me off balance -whatever that is - and after one, two looks ok and then just three etc. It's doing strange things to my mood now since the depakote - everything gets exaggerated and it's going towards the good, high, exhuberant, need more stimulation way. This'll be hard. maybe I'll join a support group b/c it is not working for me, to drink.
> > I think the depakote could work, but it's not working with the alcohol. i need to give it a go sans spirits, unfortunately :-(. I feel better for it tho'.
> > thanks again,
> > Katia
>
>
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 16, 2003, at 18:58:47
In reply to Re: Katia » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 16, 2003, at 15:49:40
Hi Katia,
I agree with you about AA philosophy. It puts me off as well. I never lasted more than 1-2 meetings even when I was majorly in need of something. Those little slogans... It's not something I choose to be involved with, although I know it helps alot of people.Please let me know of your experience/progress with your group and what their philosophy is. I'm looking for something that will understand that an occasional Margarita (Cadillac, of course) with friends is not something to flagellate myself over. So far, the meditation/spiritual practice is keeping me on track and is probably all I need as long as I stick with it. Since I'm not in such desperate need of immediate relief I don't feel the need to get so fu**ed up like I used to. But I can't kid myself - booze combined with hypomania is a potent brew. Just wish it didn't cost so much in every way imaginable.
>AA's philosophy puts me off. I know it helps people, but I've been repelled to it, not drawn. I know of another group in the area that I'll start going to.
Posted by Ron Hill on August 16, 2003, at 21:25:53
In reply to Re: Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 16, 2003, at 11:22:16
Hey BarbCat,
> Part of the problem is that I drink it at night which violates the very important rule of no concentrated sugars at night. That just perpetuates the cortisol disregulation problem we all seem to suffer from.
> Knowing about that concentrated sugar/cortisol connection has really helped.
Barbara, I'm outta the loop on this concentrated sugar/cortisol connection thing. Will you post the link(s) that I need to read in order to come up to speed on the topic? Thank you!
In particular, I want to know how sugar intake affects cortisol levels and I want to know why it is important not to eat or drink concentrated sugars at night.
Anecdotally speaking, I periodically go through a sugar-craving-binge wherein I consume a large quantity of a dessert type treat just before bedtime or in the middle of the night. For example, I can eat an entire cheesecake or I can devour the better part of a half-gallon of ice cream with some cake, cookies, or pie. However, I've noticed repeatedly, and without fail, that I feel somewhat depressed the following day. I attribute the depression to the prior nights sugar binge. Now I'm wondering if this is related to the sugar/cortisol thing that you made reference to in your post.
-- Ron
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 1:32:05
In reply to Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on August 16, 2003, at 21:25:53
Sure, Ron. I'll get some info together and get back to you. Mainly it's in books and not anything I can put my finger on as far as a link. But til then, ditch the nighttime sugar and see if it makes a diff.
Posted by Ron Hill on August 17, 2003, at 9:08:54
In reply to Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection » Ron Hill, posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 1:32:05
> Sure, Ron. I'll get some info together and get back to you. Mainly it's in books and not anything I can put my finger on as far as a link. But til then, ditch the nighttime sugar and see if it makes a diff.
-------------------Barbara,
Thank you in advance for your efforts in digging up basic information on this topic. Please do not feel obligated to spend a bunch of time on this. Just the basic facts (or theories) is all I need.
Thank you very much BCat.
-- Ron
Posted by fluffy on August 17, 2003, at 13:12:55
In reply to Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on August 17, 2003, at 9:08:54
Hi you guys. I missed you. I didn't have much to say because I was working on improving. You know, I called my doctor (of course in a panic) and told him what was going on (not sleeping even with Ambien..on the verge of a panic attack) and he straightened me out! This always amazes me--when a pinch or two more or less of a med or an addition smooths out the wrinkles.
He upped my dose of Lamictal to 250mg. And he prescribed a benzo (I forget which one now) for sleep. I feel like normal again--sleeping on my own at a set time, and waking up after a full nights sleep (without the benzo now). Phew!!
Barbara--I'm so glad you are better!
Katia--I know you can get through this--this is kinda the icky part. I'm thinking about you.
I've almost entirely quit drinking (and smoking) for the past 4 months. And I can't tell you how much better I feel. I sure don't miss waking up feeling like---what was it?--a wrung out turd?--I like that metaphor. Anyway--I struggled with it first--I had some binges coupled with hypomania that were pretty enticing while they were happening. But after about 4 or 5 binges, I gave it up, and I just can't believe how much better I feel. Good luck with that Katia--it's a difficult hurdle (as though you hadn't had enough of those lately)
lovins to all--
Katy
Posted by McPac on August 17, 2003, at 13:34:36
In reply to Re: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP!, posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 13:53:31
So glad that you're doing well Cat!!
"Katia, please, please, please try Depakote."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Barb, did you ever try Depakote yourself? If so, what are your thoughts on Depakote and the way it made you feel? How does it compare with Lithium? THANKS!!!!!!
Posted by McPac on August 17, 2003, at 13:45:05
In reply to Re: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP! » fluffy, posted by Ron Hill on August 7, 2003, at 13:12:50
Ron,
how would you compare Lithium vs. Depakote as far as their effectiveness? Do you prefer lithium over Depakote yourself (if so, is it just because Depakote made you gain weight?) Just wondering what other mood stabilizers folks here like besides lithium.
Thanks!
Posted by McPac on August 17, 2003, at 13:56:35
In reply to Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on August 17, 2003, at 9:08:54
Barb, wondering if you've seen or read a book titled, "Patient, Heal Thyself" by Jordan Rubin?
I'm sure you'd enjoy reading it......I wonder if his suggestions would help us folks here...he does give suggestions for folks like us....book deals with natural solutions to many types of problems, including us folks here on Babble.
Posted by katia on August 17, 2003, at 14:12:10
In reply to Re: Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 16, 2003, at 18:58:47
> Hi Katia,
> I agree with you about AA philosophy. It puts me off as well. I never lasted more than 1-2 meetings even when I was majorly in need of something. Those little slogans... It's not something I choose to be involved with, although I know it helps alot of people.
>
> Please let me know of your experience/progress with your group and what their philosophy is. I'm looking for something that will understand that an occasional Margarita (Cadillac, of course) with friends is not something to flagellate myself over. So far, the meditation/spiritual practice is keeping me on track and is probably all I need as long as I stick with it. Since I'm not in such desperate need of immediate relief I don't feel the need to get so fu**ed up like I used to. But I can't kid myself - booze combined with hypomania is a potent brew. Just wish it didn't cost so much in every way imaginable.
>
> >AA's philosophy puts me off. I know it helps people, but I've been repelled to it, not drawn. I know of another group in the area that I'll start going to.Hi Barb,
there is such a group out there and it's called "Rational Recovery". I have only heard about it, so I know nothing more other than it's a moderation drinking program.I upped my Depakote to 250mg last night and I woke up in a near panic attack and couldn't fall back to sleep 'til 8:30 this morning for a couple more hours.
Also, the good thing is, my appetite seems to have slightly decreased on depakote. I know i've only been on it a week. But it seems I'm having such atypical experiences with all meds! Doesn't Depakote normally sedate people? the disheartening thing of it all is that I felt normal to good and slept like a baby on absolutely nothing two weeks prior to starting the depakote.
I'll call me pdoc tomorrow - but what's he going to say that I don't already know? "just try it awhile longer, it could just be your body getting used to it."
fluffy, thanks for the words of support.
must dash! I have a class today! :-(
katia
Posted by DSCH on August 17, 2003, at 14:47:05
In reply to Barb/Others, Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection, posted by McPac on August 17, 2003, at 13:56:35
I picked this up from "Food and Mood" by Elizabeth Somer MA RD.
Eating carbs, especially simple ones, boosts blood insulin. Insulin assists tryptophan transport across the blood brain barrier causing serotonin levels to rise. If you are overweight and have a history of eating lots of sweats and carbs, it is likely you have developed hyperinsulinsim or insulin resistance which will make this serotonin effect stronger while depriving your brain of blood glucose (hypoglycemia).
Some of you may want to have a peak at the thread I started down below and rather obliquely and whimsically titled "Thanksgiving Dinner Serotonin Sydrome".
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 16:35:09
In reply to Barbcat, Re: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP!, posted by McPac on August 17, 2003, at 13:34:36
Nope, only lithium. I pleaded with Katia on Dep because that's the one she was considering and I believe she had health issues regarding lithium. It seemed pretty clear that a mood stabilizer was in order considering the mixed states hell she was going through. Dep, from what I've read, has a similar efficacy as lithium.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Barb, did you ever try Depakote yourself? If so, what are your thoughts on Depakote and the way it made you feel? How does it compare with Lithium? THANKS!!!!!!
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 16:38:36
In reply to Barb/Others, Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection, posted by McPac on August 17, 2003, at 13:56:35
I'm familiar with him and intrigued by his theories, what I've read so far, but not the book yet. I've recently begun taking his Primal Defense product to replenish good intestinal flora. After one month I'm finally beginning to see an improvement in gut motility and think it's helping my absorption problems. So I'll probably get his book cause so far he seems on to something.
> Barb, wondering if you've seen or read a book titled, "Patient, Heal Thyself" by Jordan Rubin?
> I'm sure you'd enjoy reading it......I wonder if his suggestions would help us folks here...he does give suggestions for folks like us....book deals with natural solutions to many types of problems, including us folks here on Babble.
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 17:22:30
In reply to Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on August 17, 2003, at 9:08:54
Hi Ron,
Here's a quick and dirty on the subject:http://vitamintrader.com/articles/1997_04_HypoG.html
There's basically a condition called 'reactive hypoglycemia' which isn't in the mainstream medical lexicon, which only measures fasting glucose and more severe/standard hypoglycemia. "Reactive hypoglycemia" describes a condition that roller coasters up and down the sugar scale all day, causing our already stressed out adrenal systems additional dysfunction. As this article briefly goes into, cortisol which controls blood sugar, should remain low at night. Adrenal glands make cortisol. Adrenal glands become malfunctioning through an overload of stress. There results an inability to smoothly orchestrate cellular insulin/glucose transport causing depression and anxiety among other health issues. Too high a simple sugar condition in the blood causes spikes of cortisol trying to control the sugar/insulin symphony and it just can't because this hormonal system/balance is dysfunctional. Cortisol spikes are like little jolts of adrenaline and high octane caffeine - not good for nighttime sleepies.
Anyhow, the whole subject is fascinating and only one piece of the puzzle that is emerging for me - the Hypothalamus/Pituitary/Adrenal axis implication in many of our woes (I know in my own). There's also a very good little known book called "Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar, and Survival" by T.S. Wiley. Stuff in there that seems no-brainer revolutionary material but we never hear about it or make the connection. I think you'd enjoy it. Happy reading. - Barbara
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 17:38:18
In reply to Re: Katiafluffy too » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 17, 2003, at 14:12:10
Hi Katia,
I probably should remember this from past posts, but are you on any kind of benzo? What you're describing sounds like 1) your body needs to adjust (a la your pdocs mantra), or 2) your body ain't gonna adjust. In either case, your body is in stress and would probably love to unwind a bit while it's going through this ordeal. I turn to valium (previously klonopin, then lorezapam) when things get like you're describing. I know one more pill isn't what you're looking for, but a steady supply of an effective benzo, in my humble opinion, should be required when the psyche/body is in such alarm. It does take time for these things to level out and work (if they're going to, that's another story) but in the meantime you need to relax and sleep and a good old floppy muscle relaxant may be the ticket (hence, valium for me for it's muscle relaxant properties). Another hit, have you ever tried Neurontin? It works great for me when combined with valium, but not alone. Good luck, kiddo. Been there, done that, and we're all holding you in our hearts.Oh, one more thing. I recall that you were having a good year without meds and were hopeful, but just before you started Depakote you started having a really bad time again, which is why you decided to go with Dep. So, something to consider, it may not only be the Dep that's causing these symptoms but some other underlying imbalance. Tell me once again (my poor 52 year old brain's memory glands are failing, but shoot, I'm still one hot dancer) why are you opposed to lithium? - Barbara
> I upped my Depakote to 250mg last night and I woke up in a near panic attack and couldn't fall back to sleep 'til 8:30 this morning for a couple more hours.
> Also, the good thing is, my appetite seems to have slightly decreased on depakote. I know i've only been on it a week. But it seems I'm having such atypical experiences with all meds! Doesn't Depakote normally sedate people? the disheartening thing of it all is that I felt normal to good and slept like a baby on absolutely nothing two weeks prior to starting the depakote.
> I'll call me pdoc tomorrow - but what's he going to say that I don't already know? "just try it awhile longer, it could just be your body getting used to it."
> fluffy, thanks for the words of support.
> must dash! I have a class today! :-(
> katia
>
Posted by katia on August 18, 2003, at 1:29:27
In reply to Katia (not Johnny) Dep » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 17:38:18
> Hi Katia,
> I probably should remember this from past posts, but are you on any kind of benzo?No. I've been taking 6.25mgs of Seroquel for sleep the past three nights. I do have some Neurontin given to me last year for sleep. I could try that. but again, I don't have any benzos.
I know my last posts have been confusing. here's the brief story again. Last summer, due to a really really bad depression, I finally acknowledged that I do need medical help and I suffer from depression. (never ever before trying any AD or anything related to mood - except alcohol and love affairs :-)[the best serotonin boosts!). The past year I've tried Celexa and Zoloft - made me a zombie and insomniac. and Serzone and Effexor = went mixed. The Serzone was the last and the reaction I had from that was actually what made me start thinking that i might be bipolar. esp. when I started realizing that there is more to bipolar than just bpI. During last year I was also at two different clinics and thrown around to about seven pdocs. At the same time that I was going hypo on Serzone (spring time) I decided to find a worthy pdoc that would really spend some time on me and THINK about it. So I took out extra student loans and forked over big bucks. By the time I got to see him in June, i was almost certain I was, as I say, "falling into the bipolar spectrum", after having done my own research and from the help of this board. For one month, he weened me off of Serzone and put me on Seroquel for sleep. He also said that i was more or less falling somewhere in the bp spectrum/ somewhere around II and mixed; but my dx is BP NOS (not otherwise specified). During the month that he weened me off Serzone, I was also doing an intense mood chart detailed daily. I saw him again at the beginning of July and at that point I was only taking SErqoquel for sleep. he prescribed Depakote.Due to my insurance (i have none) and waiting for my rx from Canada and then my resistance to begin taking it, I have only recently (one week) begun taking Depakote. HOWEVER, three weeks prior to beginning, my mood evened out. it took about two weeks off of everything for that to happen. I wasn't even taking the seroquel. I was on NOTHING for about three weeks and felt quite good and slept quite well. During those three weeks, my mood slipped slightly a day or two, but overall good. really good! So that also concerned me and I figured I might as well just give Depakote a go as I have a break in school and I have created space in my life for it now.
>Good luck, kiddo. Been there, done that, and we're all holding you in our hearts.
thanks!
> Oh, one more thing. I recall that you were having a good year without meds and were hopeful,
(not year, but a good three weeks)
> but shoot, I'm still one hot dancer)
I'm sure you are!
>why are you opposed to lithium?
I'm not. My pdoc just didn't go there. He wanted to try depakote. Iwanted to try Lamictal. But due to that rash, he wanted to start with a less "dangerous" one; and b/c dep. is tried and true as working.
we'll see how it goes. I can't imagine Dep. being enough for my depresson tho'.
warmly,
Katia
Posted by McPac on August 18, 2003, at 1:35:50
In reply to Re: Barb/Others, Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection » McPac, posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 16:38:36
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 18, 2003, at 8:02:48
In reply to The Serotonin/Carbohydrate Connection, posted by DSCH on August 17, 2003, at 14:47:05
> I picked this up from "Food and Mood" by Elizabeth Somer MA RD.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
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