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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by blondegirl47 on August 14, 2003, at 12:14:56
If you do a search in the archives with baking soda there is a message that explains why its not a good idea to do the baking soda thing very often.
Blondegirl
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2003, at 13:39:39
In reply to Baking soda and adderall or dexedrine, posted by blondegirl47 on August 14, 2003, at 12:14:56
> If you do a search in the archives with baking soda there is a message that explains why its not a good idea to do the baking soda thing very often.
> BlondegirlCan you tell us the reason?
Lar
Posted by blondegirl47 on August 14, 2003, at 13:52:20
In reply to Re: Baking soda and adderall or dexedrine » blondegirl47, posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2003, at 13:39:39
I will do a cut and paste from what 3beers wrote last year. Along with what he says, baking soda is so high in sodium it can make your bloodpressure soar.
Here what 3beers said:
The absorption & effects of Amphetamines are also dependent on the ph of the stomach & the urine. An alkaline agent such as Baking Soda (dissolved in water) increases the absorption of amphetamines in the stomach, and baking soda in higher doses makes the urine alkaline, greatly slowing the elimination & thus prolonging the duration & effects of amphetamines (although taking baking soda for this effect is supposed to be pretty bad for your health- Your body constantly tries to find a ph equilibrium, in both the stomach & especially in the blood which is neutral in ph except with severe dehydration or serious health problems). Acidic agents/food/drinks such as certain fruit juices decrease the duration & effect of amphetamines (thus it is better to drink water with Adderall/Dexedrine instead of fruit juice or ColasHope this helps...thanks 3beers if your still out there. :)
Blondegirl
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 14, 2003, at 16:36:21
In reply to Re: Baking soda and adderall or dexedrine » Larry Hoover, posted by blondegirl47 on August 14, 2003, at 13:52:20
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2003, at 9:22:50
In reply to Re: Baking soda and adderall or dexedrine » Larry Hoover, posted by blondegirl47 on August 14, 2003, at 13:52:20
> I will do a cut and paste from what 3beers wrote last year.
Thank you for taking the trouble to do this.
>Along with what he says, baking soda is so high in sodium it can make your bloodpressure soar.
I think sodium restriction is far over-blown as a health concern. Just my opinion.
> Here what 3beers said:
> The absorption & effects of Amphetamines are also dependent on the ph of the stomach & the urine. An alkaline agent such as Baking Soda (dissolved in water) increases the absorption of amphetamines in the stomach, and baking soda in higher doses makes the urine alkaline, greatly slowing the elimination & thus prolonging the duration & effects of amphetamines (although taking baking soda for this effect is supposed to be pretty bad for your health- Your body constantly tries to find a ph equilibrium, in both the stomach & especially in the blood which is neutral in ph except with severe dehydration or serious health problems).OK. So, here I've got a bit of a problem, conceptually. The implication is that bicarbonate ion readily enters the blood from the gut. Blood that is too high in pH is the same thing as saying that the blood has too much bicarbonate. The kidneys will adjust the pH downwards by pulling bicarbonate into urine, but that process can also be reversed, if the pH swings too far the other way. What I don't understand is how urine pH affects dexedrine excretion. (Urine pH as a surrogate marker for blood pH? But blood pH never gets anywhere close to stomach pH, so there is no overlap whatsover in the protonation of dexedrine.) The urine has already left the body, so to speak, as it is across the kidney membranes from the blood. The kidneys still touch the urine, so they can reverse the flow, but I don't see how that affects dexedrine.
The other way that your body adjusts pH is to change the rate of breathing and the depth of each breath. Too much bicarbonate would lead to shallower, less frequent breathing (and thus, less oxygen saturation). That's not a good thing, obviously, but I don't see frequency of bicarbonate use being an issue. It's dose that would be the critical factor.
Anybody have any thoughts on this?
> Acidic agents/food/drinks such as certain fruit juices decrease the duration & effect of amphetamines (thus it is better to drink water with Adderall/Dexedrine instead of fruit juice or Colas
>
> Hope this helps...thanks 3beers if your still out there. :)
> BlondegirlThanks,
Lar
Posted by blondegirl47 on August 15, 2003, at 9:29:34
In reply to So to avoid sodium, how about calcium carbonate? (nm) » blondegirl47, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 14, 2003, at 16:36:21
I've been doing some searches on that, but can't seem to find anything on it. That would be wonderful if that worked...Thats the calcium I take.
Do you have any info on how calcium carbonate helps absorption?
Blondegirl
Posted by blondegirl47 on August 15, 2003, at 10:38:40
In reply to So to avoid sodium, how about calcium carbonate? (nm) » blondegirl47, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 14, 2003, at 16:36:21
I did a search on calcium carbonate here's what I came up with:
Carbonate and bicarbonate forms of minerals are alkalizing, however, and can be put to good use decreasing excess acid in the digestive tract, neutralizing acid. So if its alkalizing then it should increase absorption.
What do you all think?
Blondegirl
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2003, at 10:57:25
In reply to Re: So to avoid sodium, how about calcium carbonate? » Ame Sans Vie, posted by blondegirl47 on August 15, 2003, at 10:38:40
> I did a search on calcium carbonate here's what I came up with:
> Carbonate and bicarbonate forms of minerals are alkalizing, however, and can be put to good use decreasing excess acid in the digestive tract, neutralizing acid. So if its alkalizing then it should increase absorption.
> What do you all think?
> BlondegirlCarbonate would be even better as a proton acceptor than would be bicarbonate, but calcium (and magnesium) carbonates are relatively insoluble (which is why I suggest people avoid them for their magnesium and calcium supplements).
Sodium carbonate, Na2CO3, is quite soluble. Sodium bicarbonate, NaHCO3, is quite soluble too, but it's already in the intermediate form (i.e. protonated once, when compared to the carbonate ion, CO3--).
I just looked up the Material Safety Data Sheet for sodium carbonate (washing soda). Do not ingest this substance!
I think sodium bicarbonate is the one being promoted for use in this role because it provides the safest and most effective activity, all thing considered.
Lar
Posted by blondegirl47 on August 15, 2003, at 11:09:41
In reply to Re: So to avoid sodium, how about calcium carbonate? » blondegirl47, posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2003, at 10:57:25
Thanks Lar, When I am done with this calcium I will probably switch to calcium citrate. Hopefully it won't zap my dexedrine too bad.
Blondegirl
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 15, 2003, at 11:50:24
In reply to Re: So to avoid sodium, how about calcium carbonate? » Larry Hoover, posted by blondegirl47 on August 15, 2003, at 11:09:41
lol, I probably should have made it clear originally that I was talking about *Tums* as a source of calcium carbonate, not vitamin supplements. I mean, they seem to work just as quickly and well as baking soda as antacids, so I guess I'll try taking one of those today with my Dex instead of the bicarb. Thanks for the replies!
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2003, at 12:07:05
In reply to Re: So to avoid sodium, how about calcium carbonate?, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 15, 2003, at 11:50:24
> lol, I probably should have made it clear originally that I was talking about *Tums* as a source of calcium carbonate, not vitamin supplements.
I was trying to link a few different ideas together, as there have been rather lengthy discussions of the solubility of the various magnesium supps, etc.
Actually, I was thinking about Tums when I wrote my bit. I used to use them quite regularly, and there was chalk visible in my stool (proof of poor solubility).
> I mean, they seem to work just as quickly and well as baking soda as antacids, so I guess I'll try taking one of those today with my Dex instead of the bicarb. Thanks for the replies!
Let us know how they compare. I'm curious.
Lar
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 15, 2003, at 12:21:02
In reply to Re: So to avoid sodium, how about calcium carbonate? » Ame Sans Vie, posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2003, at 12:07:05
> Let us know how they compare. I'm curious.
Will do. I take my next 10mg Spansule at 3:00 central time, so I'll let you know in about three hours!
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 15, 2003, at 15:43:11
In reply to Re: So to avoid sodium, how about calcium carbonate? » Larry Hoover, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 15, 2003, at 12:21:02
Before I try this Tums idea with my Dexedrine, I want to know if there's a chance it may interfere with the action of the clonazepam (which I'll be taking at the same time as the Dexedrine). Anyone know?
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2003, at 16:11:49
In reply to Kind of important..., posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 15, 2003, at 15:43:11
> Before I try this Tums idea with my Dexedrine, I want to know if there's a chance it may interfere with the action of the clonazepam (which I'll be taking at the same time as the Dexedrine). Anyone know?
A simple rule of thumb is to consider if there's any interaction with food. If not, then there shouldn't be an interaction with Tums.
BTW, I couldn't find any evidence of an interaction between the two, in any database at my disposal.
Lar
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 15, 2003, at 16:41:52
In reply to Re: Kind of important... » Ame Sans Vie, posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2003, at 16:11:49
Well I, too, was unable to find any information regarding gastric-Ph and benzodiazepine absorption. So I just went for it... only one problem. I'm on the Atkins diet (doing extremely well on it), and Tums each contain 1g of sugar. I rummaged through the medicine cabinet and was lucky enough to find Mylanta Gelcaps, containing 550mg calcium carbonate and 125mg magnesium hydroxide each. So I took my 10mg Dex Spansule and 2mg Klonopin along with four Mylanta. That was about 45 minutes ago, and I'm experiencing the same pleasant increase in effects of the Dexedrine that I did from sodium bicarb. :-)
I see my pdoc on Wednesday, and I do think a dosage increase is necessary even with the carbonate potentiation, so I'll probably move up to 20mg twice daily. Guess I'll see how that goes soon enough!
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 15, 2003, at 16:49:06
In reply to Re: Kind of important..., posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 15, 2003, at 16:41:52
I'm kind of wondering about the safety of taking cimetidine on a regular basis to potentiate the effects of benzos. I don't do this right now, but I have in the past, and it definitely works. This is more a question "for future reference", in hopes that I may be able to avoid raising my dose of Klonopin and/or Xanax XR in the future should that ever become necessary.
Posted by gabbix2 on August 16, 2003, at 19:29:25
In reply to Re: By the way, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 15, 2003, at 16:49:06
And today my excuse is Topamax ;)
I'm confused. Okay, as I understood I was mistaken in that its not the sodium in baking soda that is the danger in using to potentiate dexedrine, but the alkalinization of the urine.
So wouldn't taking anything that alkalinizes the system enough to potentiate the Dexedrine have the same dangerous effect, if the sodium is not the primary problem? Or does baking soda have more capability to alkalanize the urine?
I'm not trying to be difficult I'm confused.
Because I don't understand why avoiding the sodium is the issue when (as I gathered anyway) its not the sodium causing the alkalinization.> baking soda in higher doses makes the urine alkaline, greatly slowing the elimination & thus prolonging the duration & effects of amphetamines (although taking baking soda for this effect is supposed to be pretty bad for your health- Your body constantly tries to find a ph equilibrium, in both the stomach & especially in the blood which is neutral in ph except with severe dehydration or serious health problems
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 18, 2003, at 6:52:45
In reply to Re: By the way.. I'm slooowwww, posted by gabbix2 on August 16, 2003, at 19:29:25
> And today my excuse is Topamax ;)
>
> I'm confused. Okay, as I understood I was mistaken in that its not the sodium in baking soda that is the danger in using to potentiate dexedrine, but the alkalinization of the urine.
>
> So wouldn't taking anything that alkalinizes the system enough to potentiate the Dexedrine have the same dangerous effect, if the sodium is not the primary problem? Or does baking soda have more capability to alkalanize the urine?It's totally a dose issue. To potentiate the dexedrine, you want to alkalinize (neutralize) the stomach. That doesn't take a massive dose of sodium bicarbonate. If you take too much, you'll not only neutralize the stomach, you'll also affect blood chemistry, and simultaneously force the kidneys to start dumping bicarbonate. Your stomach will sense the neutralization effect, and just turn on the acid pumps, to restore the normal acidity in the stomach. Your blood pH is much more sensitive to disturbance (bicarbonate isn't a normal dietary component).
Sodium restriction is probably a good idea for some people, but the idea that it is good for everybody may be one of those over-generalization things. There was a recent study of heart patients, who had all had one heart attack already. Half were put on a sodium-restricted diet, and the other half were left alone. The sodium-restricted group were far more likely to have a fatal second heart attack than the other group. Blood pressure rises, for some people, when sodium intake increase, but not for all people. In a certain group, blood pressure actually decreases with sodium increase. For most people, there is (statistically) no effect at all.
> I'm not trying to be difficult I'm confused.
> Because I don't understand why avoiding the sodium is the issue when (as I gathered anyway) its not the sodium causing the alkalinization.If you're referring to my post, in which I said that sodium restriction is overblown as a risk factor, or some such, I hope I've explained myself better. If you feel like avoiding sodium, fine (you're getting lots, as it is), but there are alternatives, such as calcium salts.
LarP.S. You're not slow. When you hear new ideas that conflict with ideas you've already accepted, it takes a while to sort out which ideas you'll place your faith in. I'm sorry to add to the confusion.
Posted by gabbix2 on August 18, 2003, at 12:44:48
In reply to Re: By the way.. I'm slooowwww » gabbix2, posted by Larry Hoover on August 18, 2003, at 6:52:45
Thanks Larry I think I get it, I didn't have too many preconcieved ideas I was quite happy to use baking soda!
Originally I wasn't worried about the sodium in the baking soda at all. I'd mentioned it couldn't be anymore dangerous than seasoning your food.And then I saw the article from quoted by blonde girl written originally by '3 Beers" Saying the Soda was dangerous because the Alkalanization (which is of course the effect we're after) causes the body to fight to maintain ph equilibrium and the dexedrine stays in the body longer than is healthy)
Her following post suggested how to maintain the alkalinization effect without the sodium.I'd thought 3 beers post said the alkalinazition was the danger, NOT the sodium.
I wondered then why all the following "post" then suggested ways to avoidsodium while maintaining the alkalinization, the alkalinization which had been cited previously as the major danger.
I thought I'd missed something as the following posts seemed to stay on that same subject avoiding the sodium while alkalinizing the system
I guess I didn't miss anything I'll stick to the baking soda! As I also believe and have read the risk factor for salt has been greatly exaggerated. And I'll risk alkalinizing my systemActually I think some people do it purposely on occasion as part of a 'body cleanse" but thats another topic
But thank you for saying I'm not slow, trust me though Topamax is not called StupiMax for nothing.
Posted by Peter on September 13, 2003, at 5:46:48
In reply to Re: By the way, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 15, 2003, at 16:49:06
Hi:
Decided to go the TUMS route to try to potentiate my adderall. My goal is to lengthen the effects of each dose. I have Tums Ultra here; each tablet contains 1,000mg calcium carb:
1) Is it necessary to take it at the same time as the adderall? (I took my 1st adderall dose about 1 hour ago - would taking 2 Tums NOW be too late for it to affect absorption?).
2) Is 2,000mg calcium carbonate (2 tablets) an appropriate dose to try for amphetamine potentiation?
thanks
Posted by Peter on September 13, 2003, at 6:40:15
In reply to Re: So to avoid sodium, how about calcium carbonate?, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 15, 2003, at 11:50:24
Here's an interesting description (for the layperson-like me) of the importance of balanced pH levels in the body and the foods that tend to increase or decrease these levels:
http://www.souzaoenterprises.com/pH.html
One thing I don't understand: you should avoid citrus fruits and juices while taking amphetamines because they decrease absorption, right?
I assumed that the reason for this was because of the acidity of such foods (especially after hearing that alkalyzing agents have the converse affect, increasing amphetamine absorption).
But, on this site, citrus fruits are said to INCREASE your body's pH, in spite of their acidic taste.
So why do they decrease amph. absorption?
Sorry, I'm very new to this, and I'm probably overlooking the obvious.
thanks,
P
This is the end of the thread.
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