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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 34 male on August 9, 2003, at 10:24:13
anxiety person,on 10 mgs of lexapro,(still anxious 7 months) ,dr said go off lil bit of diazapam and take 0.5 mgs of klonipin 2x's a day, still anxious, i know your not dr's but is 0.5 mgs of klonipin to little?im not an abuser of my madeicine ,but my doc is on vacation ,whats the average anxiety people take for klonipin,dont worry ill wait to speak to my doc but could you give me feedback on anxiety klonipin doses?PS_ i think the lex is giving me anxiety??? idont know
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 9, 2003, at 11:06:22
In reply to KLONIPIN HELP PLEASE, posted by 34 male on August 9, 2003, at 10:24:13
The usual total daily dose of Klonopin lies somewhere between 2-6mg, from what I've seen (though I've heard of people taking as little as 0.125mg/day and I personally have taken up to 20mg/day at times). I'm sure you could benefit from a higher dose.
As for the Lex causing anxiety, it's possible, but generally SSRIs tend to cause anxiety during the first month or so of taking them... if you think it still is seven months later, perhaps Lex isn't for you?
Posted by mattdds on August 9, 2003, at 15:11:51
In reply to Re: KLONIPIN HELP PLEASE » 34 male, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 9, 2003, at 11:06:22
Hi there,
You have taken 20mgs of Klonopin in one day? Wow, did you feel zonked? I can't even imagine a dose that high. I know people with petit mal seizures will take that high of amounts sometimes, so I know it's OK. But, subjectively, what did 20mg feel like? Does it reach an upper limit and stop doing anything above a certain dose (perhaps because all the receptor sites are saturated?)?
Don't mean to sound nosey, just curious, if you don't mind me asking.
Thanks,
Matt
Posted by galkeepinon on August 9, 2003, at 17:02:55
In reply to KLONIPIN HELP PLEASE, posted by 34 male on August 9, 2003, at 10:24:13
hi, like Ame said the average dose , I believe too, is 2-6mg, my friend would sometimes take 6mg. Maybe you could augment something with the Lexapro? I just strated Lex a week ago and was anxious as all get out at first-it seems to have subsided a little-still get anxious but I take 2mg of Klonopin too. It helps me. I hope your anxiety goes away soon. Maybe try increasing the Klonopin-it may help you?
> anxiety person,on 10 mgs of lexapro,(still anxious 7 months) ,dr said go off lil bit of diazapam and take 0.5 mgs of klonipin 2x's a day, still anxious, i know your not dr's but is 0.5 mgs of klonipin to little?im not an abuser of my madeicine ,but my doc is on vacation ,whats the average anxiety people take for klonipin,dont worry ill wait to speak to my doc but could you give me feedback on anxiety klonipin doses?PS_ i think the lex is giving me anxiety??? idont know
Posted by Viridis on August 9, 2003, at 17:48:46
In reply to KLONIPIN HELP PLEASE, posted by 34 male on August 9, 2003, at 10:24:13
There's no "magic" dose of Klonopin (or anything else) -- it depends on the person. I do well with 1 mg/day and have for quite a while. But my pdoc says that several times that amount is often necessary for anxiety patients. I have noticed that taking the whole dose once a day (in the AM) seems more effective for me than dividing it into two or more doses, for whatever reason.
I've never responded well to SSRIs (although I haven't tried Lexapro or Celexa). Among other things, they make me very anxious, and despite what the doctors say, this never went away for me, even after months of use. My pdoc says that some people just aren't good candidates for these drugs, and recommends that I avoid them.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 9, 2003, at 21:31:16
In reply to 20mg of Klonopin?? » Ame Sans Vie, posted by mattdds on August 9, 2003, at 15:11:51
> Hi there,
>
> You have taken 20mgs of Klonopin in one day? Wow, did you feel zonked?Not at all, though I imagine most people would. I have a naturally huge tolerance to any depressant-type drug, including alcohol.
>I can't even imagine a dose that high. I know people with petit mal seizures will take that high of amounts sometimes, so I know it's OK. But, subjectively, what did 20mg feel like? Does it reach an upper limit and stop doing anything above a certain dose (perhaps because all the receptor sites are saturated?)?
That high a dose didn't really provide a whole lot more relief than 10mg or so... so perhaps you're right, all the receptor sites become saturated at a certain point.
Posted by mattdds on August 9, 2003, at 23:50:48
In reply to Re: 20mg of Klonopin?? » mattdds, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 9, 2003, at 21:31:16
>>That high a dose didn't really provide a whole lot more relief than 10mg or so... so perhaps you're right, all the receptor sites become saturated at a certain point.
Interesting. This makes a good argument for the safety of benzos. It's quite remarkable that these drugs have such an enormous therapeutic index!
Thanks,
Matt
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 10, 2003, at 0:57:51
In reply to Re: 20mg of Klonopin?? » Ame Sans Vie, posted by mattdds on August 9, 2003, at 23:50:48
Something else interesting regarding the safety of benzos is that Klonopin's LD50 for rats and mice is 4,000mg/kg, and in rabbits it's 2,000mg/kg. Even though animal LD50's aren't necessarily a great indicator of what may be a fatal dose for a human, if we use the rabbit LD50 as an example, it would take around 145,000mg of Klonopin to kill a 160-pound person; using the rat/mouse LD50, it would be 290,000mg!! So, in essence, it's pretty much impossible to OD on the stuff for two reasons:
1 -- Where the heck would you get that much Klonopin?? And if you *were* somehow able to procure it, surely thoughts of suicide would quickly be replaced with thoughts of selling the darned things and becoming filthy rich, lol!
2 -- If the LD50's listed above are similar to the LD50 in humans, one would need to ingest anywhere from 72,500-145,000 2mg pills.
As a side note, just a thought I'm having... First of all, each pill weighs more than the amount of clonazepam in it due to all the fillers. I'd be interested to find out exactly how much one 2mg pill weighs, but for argument's sake, let's just say that a 2mg Klonopin weighs about half as much as a regular paperclip, 250mg. Then 72,500 pills would weigh 18,125 grams. Now, if memory serves me correctly, it takes about 14 liters (14,000g) of water to kill a person of average weight. That would make the pills themselves less toxic than water!
I must reiterate though, the LD50's listed above are just for the sake of example; the human LD50 for clonazepam is not known (for obvious reasons).
Posted by mattdds on August 10, 2003, at 2:42:15
In reply to Re: 20mg of Klonopin?? » mattdds, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 10, 2003, at 0:57:51
Ame,
This is a great post. You've done a good job with the math, and with messing around with the LD50's here. I've often wondered if you would OD on one of the other filler substances before you would overdose on the clonazepam itself! Or like you say, if it would even be possible to procure / ingest that much, because the body does not contain enough water to dissolve it all! (Disclaimer: Of course, with the additive effects of alcohol / other sedatives, it quite possible to OD)
When you think about it this way, "upper maximum doses" of benzodiazepines seem a little silly and arbitrary, don't they?
Thanks for the interesting, (and funny) post!
Matt
Posted by SilmarilOne on August 10, 2003, at 3:12:56
In reply to Re: 20mg of Klonopin??, posted by mattdds on August 10, 2003, at 2:42:15
I once took 100mg klonopin with a pint of vodka and some beers, --I slept for a couple of days, but that was about it. Sounds pretty safe to me. (relatively of course, NOT recommended.)
-thomas-
Posted by Viridis on August 10, 2003, at 4:06:28
In reply to Re: 20mg of Klonopin??, posted by SilmarilOne on August 10, 2003, at 3:12:56
My pdoc told me that one of his other patients took over 100 mg of Xanax in a suicide attempt. Apparently, she was fine (although sleepy). He did add that, thankfully she didn't add alcohol. My impression is that it's almost impossible to OD on benzos unless other CNS depressants are involved.
Posted by cubbybear on August 10, 2003, at 4:54:38
In reply to Re: 20mg of Klonopin??, posted by Viridis on August 10, 2003, at 4:06:28
I'm always pretty surprised when I read about people who suffer no adverse effects after mixing benzos with alcohol. I had always thought that that combination of CNS depressants would almost surely be fatal. What's the word on this? (maybe I'm thinking of the old barbiturate drugs and alcohol)
Posted by 34 male on August 10, 2003, at 11:29:16
In reply to Re: 20mg of Klonopin??, posted by cubbybear on August 10, 2003, at 4:54:38
this was an interseting topic , and as for the guy drinking and taking pills ,come on man ease up be carefull, thanks to all my friends and best wishes :)
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 10, 2003, at 11:44:26
In reply to Re: 20mg of Klonopin??, posted by cubbybear on August 10, 2003, at 4:54:38
> I'm always pretty surprised when I read about people who suffer no adverse effects after mixing benzos with alcohol. I had always thought that that combination of CNS depressants would almost surely be fatal. What's the word on this? (maybe I'm thinking of the old barbiturate drugs and alcohol)
This happens to be one of those cases where individual variability in genetic factors is the major determinant of the outcome. There is no way to predict what will be a lethal dose, a priori. Alcohol and benzos combined can kill. What dose will kill a particular individual can only be determined by experiment, which will unfortunately, render that knowledge moot.
BTW, what proves lethal is the suppression of respiration. It's not toxicity that kills. It's the lack of oxygen.
Lar
Posted by cubbybear on August 11, 2003, at 1:50:25
In reply to Re: 20mg of Klonopin?? » cubbybear, posted by Larry Hoover on August 10, 2003, at 11:44:26
OK everyone, I may be going off on a tangent, but i'm just curious. . .some of the great rock stars of the 70s, e.g. Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, etc. supposedly died of "drug overdoses.", but it probably went a lot deeper than that. Elvis died because he apparently had a whole witches' brew of drugs in his bloodstream. Actor River Phoenix collapsed and died on the sidewalk in L.A. from a lethal mix of drugs. Does anyone know what each of these celebs (I'm especially curious about River Phoenix) were taking and combining in their bodies? Dr. Bob should give some sort of Trivia Award to the person who knows.
Posted by Viridis on August 11, 2003, at 2:55:36
In reply to Re: 20mg of Klonopin??, posted by cubbybear on August 10, 2003, at 4:54:38
I was extremely cautious about using alcohol when I started benzos, and essentially avoided it. I've since found that (for me) it really makes no difference, although when I do have a drink, it's typically at least 12 hours since I took Klonopin and (on the rare occasions when I take Xanax), several hours separate its use from alcohol intake.
I should emphasize that I'm talking about moderate use of alcohol and relatively low doses of benzos. Mixing the two directly is not an experiment I'd wish to try, and everyone has a different threshold of tolerance. The package inserts simply say that alcohol can potentiate the effects of benzos, and I haven't noticed even that effect. But for others it could be (dangerously) different, so proceed with caution.
Posted by djmmm on August 12, 2003, at 7:42:02
In reply to Re: 20mg of Klonopin??, posted by cubbybear on August 11, 2003, at 1:50:25
> OK everyone, I may be going off on a tangent, but i'm just curious. . .some of the great rock stars of the 70s, e.g. Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, etc. supposedly died of "drug overdoses.", but it probably went a lot deeper than that. Elvis died because he apparently had a whole witches' brew of drugs in his bloodstream. Actor River Phoenix collapsed and died on the sidewalk in L.A. from a lethal mix of drugs. Does anyone know what each of these celebs (I'm especially curious about River Phoenix) were taking and combining in their bodies? Dr. Bob should give some sort of Trivia Award to the person who knows.
River Phoenix died from a combination of "high-grade Persian Brown heroin" Valium, and cocaine.
His toxicology report showed: cocaine, morphine, valium, marijuana and ephedrine (probably a byproduct of methamphetamine, or a "filler" for Cocaine. The official cause of death was "Acute multiple drug ingestion."
Jimi Hendrix offical cause of death was "inhalation of vomit, Seconol intoxication"
Janis Joplin died from "acute heroin-morphine intoxication," "Injection of Overdose"
The offical cause of death for Jim Morrison is listed as "heart failure"
Elvis died from heart failure, most likely heart disease (hypertensive heart disease with coronary artery disease as a contributing factor) exacerbated by a combination of Ethinamate, Methaqualone, codeine and barbiturates. Chlorpheniramine, meperidine, morphine (byproduct of codeine) and Valium were also found in his system, but not at lethal levels.
Posted by cubbybear on August 13, 2003, at 0:19:02
In reply to Re: 20mg of Klonopin??, posted by djmmm on August 12, 2003, at 7:42:02
> > OK everyone, I may be going off on a tangent, but i'm just curious. . .some of the great rock stars of the 70s, e.g. Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, etc. supposedly died of "drug overdoses.", but it probably went a lot deeper than that. Elvis died because he apparently had a whole witches' brew of drugs in his bloodstream. Actor River Phoenix collapsed and died on the sidewalk in L.A. from a lethal mix of drugs. Does anyone know what each of these celebs (I'm especially curious about River Phoenix) were taking and combining in their bodies? Dr. Bob should give some sort of Trivia Award to the person who knows.
>
> River Phoenix died from a combination of "high-grade Persian Brown heroin" Valium, and cocaine.
>
> His toxicology report showed: cocaine, morphine, valium, marijuana and ephedrine (probably a byproduct of methamphetamine, or a "filler" for Cocaine. The official cause of death was "Acute multiple drug ingestion."
>
> Jimi Hendrix offical cause of death was "inhalation of vomit, Seconol intoxication"
>
> Janis Joplin died from "acute heroin-morphine intoxication," "Injection of Overdose"
>
> The offical cause of death for Jim Morrison is listed as "heart failure"
>
> Elvis died from heart failure, most likely heart disease (hypertensive heart disease with coronary artery disease as a contributing factor) exacerbated by a combination of Ethinamate, Methaqualone, codeine and barbiturates. Chlorpheniramine, meperidine, morphine (byproduct of codeine) and Valium were also found in his system, but not at lethal levels.Great info--you should get the Trivia Award!
Posted by djmmm on August 13, 2003, at 20:14:59
In reply to Re: 20mg of Klonopin?? » djmmm, posted by cubbybear on August 13, 2003, at 0:19:02
> > > OK everyone, I may be going off on a tangent, but i'm just curious. . .some of the great rock stars of the 70s, e.g. Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, etc. supposedly died of "drug overdoses.", but it probably went a lot deeper than that. Elvis died because he apparently had a whole witches' brew of drugs in his bloodstream. Actor River Phoenix collapsed and died on the sidewalk in L.A. from a lethal mix of drugs. Does anyone know what each of these celebs (I'm especially curious about River Phoenix) were taking and combining in their bodies? Dr. Bob should give some sort of Trivia Award to the person who knows.
> >
> > River Phoenix died from a combination of "high-grade Persian Brown heroin" Valium, and cocaine.
> >
> > His toxicology report showed: cocaine, morphine, valium, marijuana and ephedrine (probably a byproduct of methamphetamine, or a "filler" for Cocaine. The official cause of death was "Acute multiple drug ingestion."
> >
> > Jimi Hendrix offical cause of death was "inhalation of vomit, Seconol intoxication"
> >
> > Janis Joplin died from "acute heroin-morphine intoxication," "Injection of Overdose"
> >
> > The offical cause of death for Jim Morrison is listed as "heart failure"
> >
> > Elvis died from heart failure, most likely heart disease (hypertensive heart disease with coronary artery disease as a contributing factor) exacerbated by a combination of Ethinamate, Methaqualone, codeine and barbiturates. Chlorpheniramine, meperidine, morphine (byproduct of codeine) and Valium were also found in his system, but not at lethal levels.
>
> Great info--you should get the Trivia Award!
>
>thanks...but I just did an internet search...not too much work :)
There are actual copies of their death certs on the net (on various sites)
This is the end of the thread.
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