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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 22 to 46 of 79. Go back in thread:
Posted by colin wallace on May 6, 2003, at 9:29:39
In reply to Re: persistent arousal syndrome. » colin wallace, posted by johnj on May 1, 2003, at 13:41:11
>>..Happened upon some reading about insomnia since I have started taking Mg. It has really helped anxiety, but started to affect my sleep and hence increased fatigue and depression. I am experimenting with dosage/time/food and it seems to help. Still on the lamacital and prozac? Is it working well for you? Are you still excercising?
>
> P.S. A buddy of mine from the UK was here in the US and we had a great time. Planning a visit over the pond to see him if I can save some money, that's a big IF. Have a good one.
>
> johnHi there Johnny Boy,
Sorry, I missed this post somehow...must have been recovering from one of my shandy induced hangovers!
I took magnesium for a while too, but got little if any effect from it-I brought my anxiety to heel some time ago,it's just the depression/SAD/swings that continue to plague me, although to a much lesser extent now that the weather's improved here.
Are you still persevering with the lithium/TCA/tranxene(?) combination,or has your doc. come up with any other innovations?
I'm surprising myself with the ease with which I'm tolerating 10mg Prozac with my 300mg Lamictal-it feels like an entirely different drug, with the Lamictal 'filtering' all the unwanted side-effects(except,er,maybe a little floppiness, but my imaginary girlfriend , Gertrude, is quite sympathetic!!)Socializing now for the first time in 3 years, without having to really force myself to go outside.Getting plenty of female attention too, 'cos now I even smile occasionally and bother my arse to speak to people!I still don't have a job, but I'm in no rush to plunge into that just yet either.
If you do venture over this side of the puddle, give me a yell and we can go visit Ron's new gogo bar in Kings Cross, London....Take care,
Col.
Posted by johnj on May 6, 2003, at 14:22:56
In reply to JohnJ, TCA , posted by colin wallace on May 6, 2003, at 9:29:39
He Col:
Good to hear you are in fine spirits(literally!). The prozac/lamacital combo seems to have done a great job. I really miss my beer being on meds. Yes, I am on the same combo as before and what I read about Cymbalta is that it will be 2004 before it comes out. I have lowered my benzo a little and will continue to do so.
Interesting tibit about Mg is that it made me feel like I didn't need any benzo at all. From what I can tell, if I had a deficiency, is that I must have replenished it and then the Mg caused insomnia. From George Eby's website it said people can get type II insomnia and wake up early from Mg, and that is what was happening. So, I lowered my dose and added some calcium and I have had 4 even, not great, but even days/nights. I do have a spaciness that comes after eating and lingers from 1 to 2 hours though. The good thing is that my anxiety is at a very low level. The lack of sleep was very troubling and really racked me down in terms of depression. When I don't sleep I get pretty wacky and ramble way too much. I think I made poor Ron and Larry H want to smack me with my drivel. So, I will just continue to work on things with supplements. I have been able to tolerate some excercise on Mg and hope I can find the balance to keep that up.
My buddy is from London, but I want to visit Scotland if we go too. He took an Icelandic adventure tour and said it was great, especially the gorgeous native babes. Take care of yourself Colin
Cheers!!
johnj
Posted by Ron Hill on May 9, 2003, at 12:31:14
In reply to JohnJ, TCA , posted by colin wallace on May 6, 2003, at 9:29:39
Hey Colin,
> I'm surprising myself with the ease with which I'm tolerating 10mg Prozac with my 300mg Lamictal-it feels like an entirely different drug, with the Lamictal 'filtering' all the unwanted side-effects ...
In addition to the antidepressive effects of Prozac, it's your opinion that it also smoothes out your dysphoric mood states (anger outbursts), right? This was my experience with the SSRIs, in general, and most notably with Prozac. For me, the SSRIs provide an antidepressant effect AND they treat my anger outbursts as well as my anal retentive nit-picky personality quarks. However, as I have discussed with you repeatedly in the past, after several weeks the SSRIs adversely affect my dopaminergic pathways causing me to lose my motivation and become apathetic and emotional blunted.
While the Enada NADH and TMG are doing a good job treating my atypical depression, I find myself in need of some anger management (in tablet form) and some anti-anal medication. In my previous life (before psychotropic medications), I managed my anger, anal, and depressive symptoms fairly well with a rigorous three-hour-a-day workout routine. Exercise didn't totally take away all the symptoms, but overall it did pretty good job. And I think that would work again, but it's hard to get there from the poor state of conditioning I currently find myself.
So I'm thinking about experimenting with some meds for treatment of the anger/anal issues. After I get my exercise routine back in place I might be able to discontinue or reduce any such medication. For the past month or so, I've been using a few milligrams of 5-HTP under my tongue PRN when I get angry. It works, but only for an hour or so. If I started to take higher dosages of 5-HTP on a more frequent basis, I suspect it would loose its effectiveness altogether.
Here’re the options I’m currently considering as add-on to my 600 mg/day of Lithobid and my OTC supplements:
Neurontin
Trileptal
Depakote (low dosage only because it caused hair loss, rash, weight gain, and increased depression when I took it years ago at 750 mg/day).
MAOI
Benzo
AP
Prozac (Dare I say it?! Maybe about three mg per day? Maybe the Enada NADH will counteract the adverse dopaminergic effects?)
I’d really rather not put any of these man-made drugs in my body (let alone the cost of this stuff to my self-insured pocketbook) but, at the same time neither my wife nor myself are satisfied with a rage-o-holic, anal retentive, SOB living with us.Any thoughts?
> If you do venture over this side of the puddle, give me a yell and we can go visit Ron's new gogo bar in Kings Cross, London....
Yes, please do bring John-John (johnj) to the club. Remember to bring your money, however. The cover charge applies to everyone, even my good friends. Also bear in mind that touching the dancers is strictly prohibited.
-- Ron
Posted by colin wallace on May 10, 2003, at 10:31:48
In reply to SSRI for Anger and ARD (Anal Retentive Disorder)? » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on May 9, 2003, at 12:31:14
> Ron,
Firstly, I have to confirm that the Prozac(original)has really impressed me, despite my initial reservations.There is no doubt whatsoever that it has greatly improved my overall stability and outlook(which shocked the hell out of me!).However, I also intend to string up another safety net, by adding a small(200mg perhaps)dose of Valproate, meaning I can get away with less Lamictal.
As my concentration is pretty apalling(it can take me almost 5 minutes to read a page thesedays)I also intend to bring in reinforcements in noradrenergic form - desipramine or imipramine etc(low dose of course).This could well help counter any SSRI anerga, although wellbutrin would also be worth a shot here(different mechanisms at play of course).
The natural supplement route is pretty much out for me, unfortunately.Unravelling lifelong, severe depression with such remedies is a bit like throwing a marble at an Abrams tank, in my case at least.I have to sigh, and accept this.
For life.Far preferable to the ruinous state of health depression has inflicted for so long.
I agree with you about the benefits of rigorous exercise-I've noticed a marked improvement in stamina since taking Lamictal/Prozac too.When I was very ill, training was agony.
Looking at your dilemma from afar,it does seem as though an AD will be unavoidable,in some form,at some point.It also seems clear that you'll need an additional safety net too-you mentioned a *low* dose of valproate, and perhaps that's not such a bad idea as a starting point?? (like you, I'm keeping Trileptal and the Ap's in mind as second line).
If Prozac has helped your temper spells in the past, then I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.May even be worth a tentative shot.I've also been considering NADH further on down the line to zap any dopamine depletion- I take 20mg prozac on alternate days(more than enough)and may yet add NADH on the days inbetween-I really did like the feel of the stuff, but only as an add-on(small arms fire!!).I personally wouldn't get by on NADH alone, but as a counterweight to an SSRI...could well work.
I'm sure you'll like Neurontin(very relaxing, even uplifting), but it's only got *mild* antidepressant properties, and it can't
masquerade as a mood stabilizer either.It won't stop mania/hypomania, guaranteed.But that's fine if you're going to do without an AD.
I did try 5htp too, but we didn't get along at all.:(
Another contender in my list has to be Selegiline-as you know, it prevents the breakdown/re-absorption of dopamine, and that's a route I've yet to explore.It's also believed to have neuroprotective effects, etc. etc.
I won't hesitate to try an MAOI if necessary, but for now at least, it's back to basics with my newly discovered stability.
Take what I say with a pinch of salt here Ron- I'd hate to see you become hypomanic(echoes of Zoloft+ Sam e for us both !!!)Keep us informed..
Col.
ps. A benzo??why on earth not, at least untill the anger issue is nailed.A mere 2 to 4mg(child's dose)works well for me.I can take it or leave it as necessary too.
antidepressive effects of Prozac, it's your opinion that it also smoothes out your dysphoric mood states (anger outbursts), right? This was my experience with the SSRIs, in general, and most notably with Prozac. For me, the SSRIs provide an antidepressant effect AND they treat my anger outbursts as well as my anal retentive nit-picky personality quarks. However, as I have discussed with you repeatedly in the past, after several weeks the SSRIs adversely affect my dopaminergic pathways causing me to lose my motivation and become apathetic and emotional blunted.>
> While the Enada NADH and TMG are doing a good job treating my atypical depression, I find myself in need of some anger management (in tablet form) and some anti-anal medication. In my previous life (before psychotropic medications), I managed my anger, anal, and depressive symptoms fairly well with a rigorous three-hour-a-day workout routine. Exercise didn't totally take away all the symptoms, but overall it did pretty good job. And I think that would work again, but it's hard to get there from the poor state of conditioning I currently find myself.
>
> So I'm thinking about experimenting with some meds for treatment of the anger/anal issues. After I get my exercise routine back in place I might be able to discontinue or reduce any such medication. For the past month or so, I've been using a few milligrams of 5-HTP under my tongue PRN when I get angry. It works, but only for an hour or so. If I started to take higher dosages of 5-HTP on a more frequent basis, I suspect it would loose its effectiveness altogether.
>
> Here’re the options I’m currently considering as add-on to my 600 mg/day of Lithobid and my OTC supplements:
>
> Neurontin
>
> Trileptal
>
> Depakote (low dosage only because it caused hair loss, rash, weight gain, and increased depression when I took it years ago at 750 mg/day).
>
> MAOI
>
> Benzo
>
> AP
>
> Prozac (Dare I say it?! Maybe about three mg per day? Maybe the Enada NADH will counteract the adverse dopaminergic effects?)
>
>
> I’d really rather not put any of these man-made drugs in my body (let alone the cost of this stuff to my self-insured pocketbook) but, at the same time neither my wife nor myself are satisfied with a rage-o-holic, anal retentive, SOB living with us.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> > If you do venture over this side of the puddle, give me a yell and we can go visit Ron's new gogo bar in Kings Cross, London....
>
> Yes, please do bring John-John (johnj) to the club. Remember to bring your money, however. The cover charge applies to everyone, even my good friends. Also bear in mind that touching the dancers is strictly prohibited.
>
> -- Ron
>
Posted by Ron Hill on May 13, 2003, at 10:44:46
In reply to Re: SSRI for Anger and ARD (Anal Retentive Disorder)? » Ron Hill, posted by colin wallace on May 10, 2003, at 10:31:48
Hi Colin,
Thank you for you detailed response! I’m happy that you are doing well and I hope that the Depakote add-on works (if that’s what you end up trying). Allow me to follow-up with a couple more questions and comments.
> I also intend to bring in reinforcements in noradrenergic form - desipramine or imipramine etc(low dose of course).This could well help counter any SSRI anerga, although wellbutrin would also be worth a shot here(different mechanisms at play of course).
Wellbutrin made me very irritable (GRRRRRRRRRR!) when I tried it several years ago. Based on what I know about you, I wonder if it might do the same to you.
> It also seems clear that you'll need an additional safety net too-you mentioned a *low* dose of valproate, and perhaps that's not such a bad idea as a starting point??My wife thinks that I should try this option, but I think I'll try Neurontin first.
> If Prozac has helped your temper spells in the past, then I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. May even be worth a tentative shot.
Yeah, but the question remains whether my low dosage of Enada NADH can overcome Prozac's adverse dopaminergic effects. If not, the SSRI will turn me back into "do-nothing-boy".
> I'm sure you'll like Neurontin (very relaxing, even uplifting), but it's only got *mild* antidepressant properties, and it can't masquerade as a mood stabilizer either.
Unless it poops out, I already have the depressive phase of my disorder covered with Enada NADH, TMG, and other supplements. And Lithobid provides the mood stabilizing power to control my mildly euphoric hypomania. Therefore, at this point, all I need is something to treat my anger outbursts. Having said this, however, the anger outbursts may in fact be symptomatic of the need for more of an antidepressant and/or more mood stabilization.
Here’s my question for you Colin regarding Neurontin. Will the “very relaxing” quality help control my irritability (flash rage), or is it just an anti-anxiety effect?
> A benzo??why on earth not, at least untill the anger issue is nailed.A mere 2 to 4mg(child's dose)works well for me.I can take it or leave it as necessary too.
Colin, please tell me what a benzo feels like when one takes it. For example, suppose (for the millionth time) my wife leaves her used breakfast dish sitting dirty on the counter instead of rinsing it out so that I can put it directly into the dishwasher without first having to use a hammer and chisel to remove the crusted remains. Further, let’s say this causes me to blow-up (for the millionth time). If I were to take a short-acting benzo PRN when I first start to get angry, would it help me to control my temper? Also, will I experience any type of rebound-effect after the short-acting benzo starts to wear off, whereby, I become irritable from the mini-withdrawal effects?
Thank you for your input, Colin.
-- Ron
Posted by colin wallace on May 14, 2003, at 10:31:17
In reply to Meds for Anger and ARD (Anal Retentive Disorder)? » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on May 13, 2003, at 10:44:46
Signor Ronaldo>,
>>Wellbutrin made me very irritable (GRRRRRRRRRR!) when I tried it several years ago. Based on what I know about you, I wonder if it might do the same to you.
Yeah Ron, I've got a healthy wary feeling for this one too-there doesn't seem to be any 'in-between' reaction with this med. does there??Explosive or great!!
> My wife thinks that I should try this option(valproate) but I think I'll try Neurontin first.Makes sense.As you say, if your sudden sparks of fury are soley due to anger, not depression or (in)stability, you'll soon find out!If it works, no need to look any further.
> Yeah, but the question remains whether my low dosage of Enada NADH can overcome Prozac's adverse dopaminergic effects. If not, the SSRI will turn me back into "do-nothing-boy".
Quandry for us both.I also intend trying out an ENADA add-on, once I'm fully used to the Prozac.In theory at least, it should prove beneficial.I'm Hoping it will help me with my inattention and coordination difficulties, and boost motivation too.If not, it's on to the noradrenergic/dopaminergic meds...
>Here's my questin for you you Colin regarding Neurontin. Will the “very relaxing” quality help control my irritability (flash rage), or is it just an anti-anxiety effect?Well, I must say that it didn't have anywhere near as much impact on anxiety as it did for irritability, in my case.But it's nothing like a benzo(you wouldn't really call a benzo 'uplifting).Then again, my anxiety issues all but disappeared with Lamictal,so it's hard to say for sure. Neurontin definitely reduced my irritability, but I found it to be more of an all round 'tension' reliever, rather than something I'd use for an anger flare-up.
> Colin, please tell me what a benzo feels like when one takes it. For example, suppose (for the millionth time) my wife leaves her used breakfast dish sitting dirty on the counter instead of rinsing it out so that I can put it directly into the dishwasher without first having to use a hammer and chisel to remove the crusted remains. Further, let’s say this causes me to blow-up (for the millionth time). If I were to take a short-acting benzo PRN when I first start to get angry, would it help me to control my temper? Also, will I experience any type of rebound-effect after the short-acting benzo starts to wear off, whereby, I become irritable from the mini-withdrawal effects?Hey,Maybe you should get your wife to create a crockery sculpture??
But benzo's am morgen for irritability??Yup, that's something I've kept up, for just that reason.I'm at my worst in the morning, just like you.I don't what to get into the endless and dreary pro/anti benzo debate, but a small dose of a long-lasting(diazepam) benzo first thing makes my mornings pass a lot smoother!.A mild benzo. used to check my SAM-E induced anger too(but what's the point of taking anything that makes us angry eh?)
I wouldn't go for a short acting benzo.though.
They tend to be stronger(xanax etc.)and this may be overkill , unless you're going berserk!!
These 'acute' benzo's do come in tiny doses, and whilst this may be fine for occasional, sporadic angry outbursts,a milder one with a long half-life would be more settling and even throughout the day.(diazepam has the longest half-life,so withdrawing is a bit like stopping fluoxetine- much easier than the others!)
As for what a benzo feels like,the responses are again individual(some feel groggy, others like myself don't)they tend to be neutral in terms of mood effect, but you will notice an instant, very noticable, highly effective calming effect for sure.Much more so than Neurontin, although if you like Neurontin and still get a touch of anger, you could integrate the two if you wanted.
Then of coure there's our friend Valproate again...
Anyway, hope this helps-I can't reply for a couple of weeks 'cos I'm off down to the (muddy brown,murky, rainy)UK coast for a break.Seeya soon,
Col.
Posted by Ron Hill on May 14, 2003, at 10:38:29
In reply to Re: Ron Hill, ENADA Pill, posted by colin wallace on May 14, 2003, at 10:31:17
Posted by johnj on May 14, 2003, at 13:43:28
In reply to Thanks Colin, ole Buddy, ole Pal. (nm) » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on May 14, 2003, at 10:38:29
Anger issues are really rough to deal with and horrendous on other people around you. With Mg I was able to control my anger and not have an outburst. But, I started having sleep problems again/waking up early after 10 great days. I can't figure it out but that is what happened with the fish oil too.
Benzo's are tricky for some. I believe if I had the money to get my self thoroughly checked out we could proceed with meds/supplements that would give me the best chance to join the human race again. Ron, give niacinamide a try instead of a benzo. I took 200 mg around 10 am and felt better, althought my past does not make me too hopefull. You can always go to a benzo, but it is hard to go off and try something else. A few years back I went from 15 mg tranzene to 7.5 mg. I had no sleep problems, but I had "jumpy" legs. I would have twitching and a weird sensation out of the blue which lasted about 1 month. I am sure there are better benzo's out there too but I agree with Colin, a longer acting benzo is probably better.
Lately, I get very spaced after eating and have lost the ability to feel the sleepiness take over and give me a good nights rest.
For me guys, the job stress is killing me. On one hand my boss leaves me alone most of the time, but things are his way or the highway. On top of that nobody in the section is willing to help the new guys out. Nobody wants to be singled out for his wrath. Besides it is government and apathy abounds. The problem is the cold hard fact that no other jobs are availabe now and I don't feel I am contributing to anything. I know this might sound selfish, but I should just be worrrying about HAVING this job when in fact I don't know if it is giving me the anxiety/depression problems!??? Classic, which comes first the chicken or the damn egg? If I don't have this job we lose our apartment and then what? I looked at my job disabilty insurance and sure enough, I have been on meds so I am not covered and depression, if you qualify, is only covered for 2 years. Ever wake up thinking you just dreamed you had depression and it was some nightmare that wasn't true? Unforunately, I feel my nightmare is just starting and it is real. Well, I ramble as usual so I will sign off here. Take care and I pray you both find peace and happiness.
Posted by Ron Hill on May 14, 2003, at 17:51:55
In reply to Hey guys » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on May 14, 2003, at 13:43:28
Hey John,
> Ron, give niacinamide a try instead of a benzo.
I take 100 mg/day in my B-complex and 75 mg/day in my multivitamin. Do you think I should be taking more niacinamide?
> The problem is the cold hard fact that no other jobs are availabe now and I don't feel I am contributing to anything.
Give it you best effort, John. Continually give thanks for your job (and your boss). It will help your attitude and your job performance.
-- Ron
Posted by johnj on May 14, 2003, at 21:07:15
In reply to Re: Niacinamide » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 14, 2003, at 17:51:55
Hi Ron,
Do you take niacin or niacinamide? Make sure it is niacinamide. Google niacinamide and you will find recommendations that up to 2000 mg/day is ok. Personally, for people med sensitive like us, I wouldn't go near that much. I took 400 total today and it appears to help with anxiety. But, my time is so short I really couldn't make an educated guess yet. I read that it is helpful for people getting off benzo's that is why the dose is so high. I took high doses of niacin for an inner ear infection in high school. The flush is incredible and you can acutually watch the flush progress down your body! It is not pleasant either. Recently after eating I get spacey and my coordination goes wacky too. Today I didn't really space out when I took the niacinamide. Don't know if there is any connection or not. I am hoping that at least it will calm me and I won't be such a dick if I get upset. I hate snapping at my wife, that is not the me I used to be. I found some 100 mg tablets at GNC, but most other stores only had 500 tablets. I bought both since they were not very expensive. Online they probably are much much cheaper.
I know you are med sensitive so I was suprised when you said you take 1000 mg a day of Ca. I couldn't tolerate 600 mg. I am taking about 50 mg right now. I really need something to help me sleep. My doc says insomnia is a symptom not a disease. All I know is if I sleep well, I feel well. I need something for sleep bad...
Ron, thanks for the push on my job situation. I am so afraid I will lose my mind and hence my job. I need that job bad more than I ever have. I don't want to hurt my wife she has gone through enough. It sounds stupid but sometimes I wish I would get cancer that would be easier than this disease, but I don't want to croak either. My depression/anxiety has always been situational so I am perplexed as to why I am having so much trouble. The three weeks before the FE I studied every day and weekend and slept well. Do I need more stimulation? It is very confusing. I may seek some therapy out. Never really done that much so don't know if it is a waste of time or not. I just want to sleep and get on with things. If I could work out I would do that but alas the sleep problem emerges. I really think I need to work out and then have some blood work done.
Did you ever get a cortisol/DHEA test done? That and enada NADH, TMG, I haven't tried yet. Anxiety/sleep is my main problem or so I think.
Take care my friend and wish you the bestThe sleepless Johny
Oh serotonin where have you gone?:)
Posted by Jack Smith on May 15, 2003, at 14:14:10
In reply to Re: Niacinamide » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 14, 2003, at 17:51:55
Ron,
Thanks for posting those links. A few questions?
What dose and what brand do you take?
What other meds do you take and what doses?
You are atypical, correct? Are you also bipolar?
Does it improve your energy/mood/libido?
How long to notice an improvement in mood/energy/libido?
Thanks in advance,
JACK
Posted by Ron Hill on May 15, 2003, at 18:48:11
In reply to ENADA NADH Q's » Ron Hill, posted by Jack Smith on May 15, 2003, at 14:14:10
Hi Jack,
> What dose and what brand do you take?
2.5 mg per week of Source Naturals Enada NADH
> What other meds do you take and what doses?
600 mg/day Lithobid. Also, several vitamins and supplements.
> You are atypical, correct?
Yes.
> Are you also bipolar?
Yes, bipolar II.
> Does it improve your energy/mood/libido?
Yes/yes/yes. Also it improves my motivation and focus (concentration).
> How long to notice an improvement in mood/energy/libido?
For me, the improvements began within seconds of placing the first 10 mg sublingual tablet under my tongue. However, Enada NADH is not a panacea. It causes irritability at moderate dosages when used over an extended period of time. One of my posts from about three weeks ago higher up in this thread provides more detail. Here is a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030429/msgs/223139.html
-- Ron
Posted by johnj on May 15, 2003, at 21:27:31
In reply to Re: ENADA NADH Q's » Jack Smith, posted by Ron Hill on May 15, 2003, at 18:48:11
Hi Ron
Well, I wussed out and went and bought some benadryl. I just can't take the no sleep any longer. We have a big meeting tomorrow with an outside consultant to try and fix our training/boss issues. It won't be pretty and that is what may have been bothering me.
I was wondering if you have ever tried remeron? I didn't think you had, but I had an idea about it. I had a big problem with it causing sponge brain(stole that from Colin) and it was a numbing feeling but did great for sleep, anxiety, and motivation. I wonder if ENADA would help "clear" my head in the morning? Maybe with some TMG? Just a thought as my TCA is not working. I don't yawn or get sleepy even thought my head aches and I am so uncoordinated due to lack of sleep. Today was rough to say the least.
Take care
Johnj
Posted by Ron Hill on May 15, 2003, at 23:25:27
In reply to Re: ENADA NADH Q's » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on May 15, 2003, at 21:27:31
John,
> I was wondering if you have ever tried remeron?
Nope.
> I wonder if ENADA would help "clear" my head in the morning?
My guess is that it might in the beginning, but it may make you irritable after a week or two. Some choline (precursor to the neurotransmitter acetylcholine) on an empty stomach might be worth a try.
> Maybe with some TMG?
Perhaps. Or maybe try some TMG without the Enada NADH.
-- Ron
Posted by McPac on May 18, 2003, at 16:23:52
In reply to Re: Niacinamide » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on May 14, 2003, at 21:07:15
Have you considered low-dose Remeron for sleep (7.5 mg should do it)?
Posted by johnj on May 18, 2003, at 18:24:47
In reply to johnj, Re: Niacinamide, posted by McPac on May 18, 2003, at 16:23:52
McPac, Hello
Well you must have read my mind. I went for the 30 mg on Friday night. Over a year ago I tried remeron for a few months and when I weaned down to 15 I was sleeping great, but the depression was WORSE. Strange to think, but the lower I went the worse I felt. I actually felt great for a week off remeron, this is due to lingering serotonin according to my pdoc, but I "stabilized" to a depressed feeling again. I eventually upped my benzo and I have had on and off depression/anxiety for over a year. My doc is not very good. A very likeable guy, but just doesn't say much and just says "try this". Well, trying stuff out when you work is not easy.
BTW what is your dx and what do you take? Thanks for the hint, hope you are well.
johnj
Posted by Ron Hill on May 20, 2003, at 0:19:51
In reply to Hey guys » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on May 14, 2003, at 13:43:28
John,
> Ron, give niacinamide a try ...
Hey, you were right. I took 500 mg of niacinamide and it did two things. First, it caused my skin to become bright red and tingly all over, and, second, it reduced my irritability (for a while anyway). I get the feeling, however, that it would lose its effectiveness if I were to take it every day. Any insight regarding its long-term efficacy for the treatment of irritability (anger outbursts)?
Thanks for the tip, John!
-- Ron
Posted by johnj on May 20, 2003, at 9:22:24
In reply to Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 20, 2003, at 0:19:51
Hi Ron,
I find it also does mellow me out, but I somehow don't see myself able to tolerate 3 to 4 doses a day of 500 mg of niacinamide. It is not supposed to cause the flush, but like you, I found myself flushing but not in the way pure niacin does. Us med sensitive guys cannot overdo anything and I do not think it would work in place of a benzo 100%. I will take smaller doses.
I am back on remeron and feel better and able to function here at work. Just hope some of the side effects are more tolerable now.
Things going well for you? take care my friend.
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 11:14:36
In reply to Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 20, 2003, at 0:19:51
> John,
>
> > Ron, give niacinamide a try ...
>
> Hey, you were right. I took 500 mg of niacinamide and it did two things. First, it caused my skin to become bright red and tingly all over, and, second, it reduced my irritability (for a while anyway). I get the feeling, however, that it would lose its effectiveness if I were to take it every day. Any insight regarding its long-term efficacy for the treatment of irritability (anger outbursts)?
>
> Thanks for the tip, John!
>
> -- RonHey, Ron. I'm a little surprised to find that you had classic niacin flush from niacinamide. You may be encouraged to learn that most people quickly adapt to even niacin, and the flush symptoms gradually reduce to nothing.
I've been looking at dosing for niacinamide, and I'm starting to think this may be another "wonder nutrient". Just go to Pubmed and plug in "niacinamide diabetes". Maintenance doses are 25 mg/kg, which is 1750 mg/day for your typical 70 kg adult male. In other treatment protocols, doses of 60 mg/kg are used.
I wouldn't be too concerned that there is a possibility of adapting to the dose you're taking, i.e. diminished effectiveness vis a vis irritability. Niacinamide is not stored in the body to any appreciable extent.
Just for the record, irritability is one of the symptoms of niacin/niacinamide deficiency. Perhaps you've got a genetic biochemical quirk that requires a little "helping hand" with supplementation?
Lar
Posted by McPac on May 21, 2003, at 21:40:17
In reply to Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 20, 2003, at 0:19:51
Might any of your meds be causing the irritability/anger problems?
Posted by Ron Hill on May 21, 2003, at 21:42:39
In reply to Re: Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 11:14:36
Larry,
Thanks for your post.
> Hey, Ron. I'm a little surprised to find that you had classic niacin flush from niacinamide.
Figures I'd get caught in my lie. Johnj emphasized the need to take niacinamide (as opposed to niacin), however, my wife takes niacin periodically so I tried some of what we already had laying around the house until I can get over to the nutritional store to buy some niacinamide. I lied in my post and said that I took 500mg of niacinamide (when I actually took 500 mg of niacin) so that my friend Johnj would not yell at me.
Why is niacinamide preferable to niacin, anyhow?
> Just go to Pubmed and plug in "niacinamide diabetes". Maintenance doses are 25 mg/kg, which is 1750 mg/day for your typical 70 kg adult male. In other treatment protocols, doses of 60 mg/kg are used.
Thanks, Larry; I'll check it out. <How do you know if I am lying or telling the truth?>
> Just for the record, irritability is one of the symptoms of niacin/niacinamide deficiency. Perhaps you've got a genetic biochemical quirk that requires a little "helping hand" with supplementation?
Maybe; I don't know. It does seem to reduce my irritability quite noticeably. But now I'm having trouble with my atypical depression. I'm not sure what's going on. I went two weeks between Enada NADH doses, so maybe that's it. Part of me wants to speculate that niacin (NAD) counteracts the antidepressive effects of NADH. Enada NADH reduces my atypical depression but increases my irritability. On the other hand, NAD reduces my irritability, but might it also be adversely affecting my atypical depression? Who knows. What I do know is that I've gotta suck it up and get myself out of this low motivational, apathetic pit.
Thanks again, Larry and John.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 0:33:27
In reply to Re: Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 11:14:36
Larry and John,
I've started to do some reading on niacinamide and so far I'm confused by the nomenclature. Which one of these am I supposed to take and why?
nicotianmide
NAD (ß-Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide)
niacinamide
nicotinic acidThe ingredient list for the product shown at the following web-page link leads me to believe that niacinamide is the same as nicotinic acid:
http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/niacinamide2.html
If that's the case, then I didn't lie in my previous post when I stated that I took 500 mg of niacinamide because, as chance would have it, my wife's "niacin" is nicotinic acid.
Thank you very much for you help.
-- Ron
P.S. I took 2.5 mg of Enada NADH a few hours ago and my depression seems to be lifting. Who knows. Time will tell.
Posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 5:27:40
In reply to Re: Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 11:14:36
Larry and Johnj,
I should do my homework before I bug you guys with the type of questions I asked in my post immediately above. I’ll briefly answer my own questions and then I’ll state my plans regarding my vitamin B3 trial.
<Answers>
Vitamin B3 comes in two basic forms; niacin (also called nicotinic acid) and niacinamide (also called nicotinamide). A variation on niacin, called inosital hexaniacinate, is also available in supplements. Because it has not been linked with any of the usual niacin toxicity in scientific research, inositol hexaniacinate is sometimes prescribed by European doctors for those who need high amounts of niacin.Vitamin B3 as niacinamide may be beneficial in the treatment of anxiety. It has been shown in animals to work in the brain in ways similar to drugs, such as benzodiazepines (Valium®-type drugs), which are used to treat anxiety. One study found that niacinamide (not niacin) could help people get through withdrawal from benzodiazepines, a common problem. A reasonable amount of niacinamide to take for anxiety, according to some doctors, is up to 500 mg four times per day.
<Plan>
Although 250 mg/day of niacin (nicotinic acid) seems to help my irritability, it appears from what I have read that niacinamide is the better form of vitamin B3 for this purpose. Therefore, I’ll buy some niacinamide and start out taking about 100 mg three to five times a day. I’ll miss the niacin flush, however. I kind of liked it.One other option might be to try NAD, but I'd have to read more to determine the advantages and disadvantages associated with this approach.
What da ya think?
-- Ron
-------------------------------------
> Larry and John,
>
> I've started to do some reading on niacinamide and so far I'm confused by the nomenclature. Which one of these am I supposed to take and why?
>
> nicotianmide
> NAD (ß-Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide)
> niacinamide
> nicotinic acid
>
> The ingredient list for the product shown at the following web-page link leads me to believe that niacinamide is the same as nicotinic acid:
>
> http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/niacinamide2.html
>
> If that's the case, then I didn't lie in my previous post when I stated that I took 500 mg of niacinamide because, as chance would have it, my wife's "niacin" is nicotinic acid.
>
> Thank you very much for you help.
>
> -- Ron
>
>
> P.S. I took 2.5 mg of Enada NADH a few hours ago and my depression seems to be lifting. Who knows. Time will tell.
Posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 6:58:39
In reply to Ron, Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal), posted by McPac on May 21, 2003, at 21:40:17
Hi McPac,
> Might any of your meds be causing the irritability/anger problems?
Yes. Although Enada NADH provides good relief for the atypical depressive component of my bipolar disorder, it can also (unfortunately) cause severe irritability (flash rage). If I take more than one 2.5 mg tablet about once per week, irritability becomes very bothersome.
I'd love to take more Enada NADH in order to keep my atypical depression more fully in check, but I hate the dysphoric mood state more than I hate the depression. Trust me, I hate the depression (I retreat and sleep 24/7). But the dysphoric rage is even worse because it destroys relationships and makes me want to jump out of my skin.
Additionally, I typically have a low-level impatience/irritability thing going on in the background which is not attributable to medications or supplements. Over the years I've assumed that this is just part of my bipolar disorder, but now I'm wondering if a vitamin B3 mal-absorption issue could be involved in some way. At any rate, I plan to conduct a trial of niacinamide and see what happens.
Thanks for your concern McPac. I hope you are doing well.
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 8:21:36
In reply to After 5hrs of reading about B3, here's what I got: » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 5:27:40
> Although 250 mg/day of niacin (nicotinic acid) seems to help my irritability, it appears from what I have read that niacinamide is the better form of vitamin B3 for this purpose. Therefore, I’ll buy some niacinamide and start out taking about 100 mg three to five times a day. I’ll miss the niacin flush, however. I kind of liked it.
>
> One other option might be to try NAD, but I'd have to read more to determine the advantages and disadvantages associated with this approach.
>
> What da ya think?
>
> -- RonNiacinamide supplementation has been demonstrated to increase NADH levels, so you may no longer need the Enada.
Lar
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