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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ace on April 28, 2003, at 21:53:21
Read this...
'The action of Clomipramine on the human EEG is one of desynchronization. It causes a PERSISTENT INCREASE OF SHIFTS INTO STAGE I SLEEP AND PRODUCES MARKED REDUCTION OR SUPPRESSION OF REM SLEEP WITH PARTIAL RECOVERY WITHIN 3-4 WEEKS AND A REBOUND AFTER DRUG WITHDRAWAL WHICH APPEARS TO LAST APPROXIMATELY THE SAME TIME"
Ok, when I took Anafranil in the past (only 2 days) it put me to sleep like a switch. But, and this annyed me, at around 4am or so, I would wake up WIDE-EYED (not slowely but instantly).
Can anybody relate this to the above monagraph statement. More important how long would this last? If always I will NOT go on Anafranil. My brother McPac has also experienced this phenomenon.
Please sort this out, cause like I said, If this wierd sleep thing does not stop, Anafranil is struck of the list, and, thus, less confusion for a confused little Ace.
Thankyou brethren,
Ace.
Posted by ace on April 29, 2003, at 2:13:58
In reply to Serious Anafranil REM phenomenon, PLS answer!, posted by ace on April 28, 2003, at 21:53:21
Posted by zeugma on April 29, 2003, at 8:26:02
In reply to Serious Anafranil REM phenomenon, PLS answer!, posted by ace on April 28, 2003, at 21:53:21
> Read this...
>
> 'The action of Clomipramine on the human EEG is one of desynchronization. It causes a PERSISTENT INCREASE OF SHIFTS INTO STAGE I SLEEP AND PRODUCES MARKED REDUCTION OR SUPPRESSION OF REM SLEEP WITH PARTIAL RECOVERY WITHIN 3-4 WEEKS AND A REBOUND AFTER DRUG WITHDRAWAL WHICH APPEARS TO LAST APPROXIMATELY THE SAME TIME"
>Virtually all antidepressants will cause a marked reduction in REM sleep. Some have thought that is one of the mechanisms by which antidepressant effect is exerted. The phenomenon of "REM rebound," similarly, is common to discontinuation of most antidepressants.
Posted by SLS on April 29, 2003, at 11:28:24
In reply to Serious Anafranil REM phenomenon, PLS answer!, posted by ace on April 28, 2003, at 21:53:21
Dear Ace,
Starting Anafranil so soon after discontinuing an irreversible MAOI (Nardil) is contraindicated. I would recommend that you run a few Google searches using the term "serotonin syndrome", including quotes. Create a list of symptoms of the syndrome and carefully monitor yourself for their occurence. This might include body temperature (hyperpyresis). Muscle stiffness might be a good early indicator. I experienced some symptoms of serotonin syndrome when I added Nardil 60mg to imipramine 300mg. They resolved upon discontinuation of imipramine.
You will most likely experience REM rebound for having discontinued Nardil so quickly. You might even dream before falling completely asleep.
- Scott
Posted by McPac on April 29, 2003, at 18:57:52
In reply to Please guys: need answer soon - Djmm. or anyone (nm), posted by ace on April 29, 2003, at 2:13:58
See my answer above to your question!!!
Posted by ace on April 29, 2003, at 23:55:23
In reply to Re: Serious Anafranil REM phenomenon, PLS answer! ?ace, posted by SLS on April 29, 2003, at 11:28:24
> Dear Ace,
>
> Starting Anafranil so soon after discontinuing an irreversible MAOI (Nardil) is contraindicated. I would recommend that you run a few Google searches using the term "serotonin syndrome", including quotes. Create a list of symptoms of the syndrome and carefully monitor yourself for their occurence. This might include body temperature (hyperpyresis). Muscle stiffness might be a good early indicator. I experienced some symptoms of serotonin syndrome when I added Nardil 60mg to imipramine 300mg. They resolved upon discontinuation of imipramine.
>
> You will most likely experience REM rebound for having discontinued Nardil so quickly. You might even dream before falling completely asleep.
>
>
> - ScottScott, the recommended period of washout betwwen Nardil and Anafranil is 10-14 days. I'm going for 10 'cause I'm at uni and cannot have a relapse or any extra symptoms set in. It definately won't after such a short peiod. I know this from experience. Usuallt takes about 4 weeks. I will start Anafranil at low dose 25mg for 2 days. I will be fine.
How long did you think my washout was for. In one (very good, technical monograph) it says 7 days between MAOI and TCA (including Nardil and Anafranil is fine)
Thanks for the reply!
Ace.
Posted by SLS on April 30, 2003, at 8:13:59
In reply to Re: Serious Anafranil REM phenomenon, PLS answer! » SLS, posted by ace on April 29, 2003, at 23:55:23
> Scott, the recommended period of washout betwwen Nardil and Anafranil is 10-14 days. I'm going for 10 'cause I'm at uni and cannot have a relapse or any extra symptoms set in.My apologies. I thought you were starting Anafranil within 1 day of your last dose of Nardil. I guess I didn't follow your posts closely enough. Good luck! Anafranil is a dirty, but very effective drug for both OCD and depression.
- Scott
Posted by MattD on April 30, 2003, at 14:53:47
In reply to Serious Anafranil REM phenomenon, PLS answer!, posted by ace on April 28, 2003, at 21:53:21
This is true; this is why TCAs are given for bed-wetting. I've not heard of SSRIs given for this condition.
Matt
Posted by jack smith on April 30, 2003, at 17:01:40
In reply to Re: Serious Anafranil REM phenomenon, PLS answer! » SLS, posted by SLS on April 30, 2003, at 8:13:59
Scott, or others, why are TCA's and MAOI's referred to as dirty drugs? I have never quite understood this. Is it just because they are not selective. Or is it because of the TCA's anticholinergic (sp?) effect? Just wondering.
JACK
Posted by Questionmark on April 30, 2003, at 20:52:49
In reply to Why Dirty Drug » SLS, posted by jack smith on April 30, 2003, at 17:01:40
> "Scott, or others, why are TCA's and MAOI's referred to as dirty drugs? I have never quite understood this. Is it just because they are not selective. Or is it because of the TCA's anticholinergic (sp?) effect? Just wondering."
i've really only heard this in reference to TCAs. But yeah, it always seemed like it was referring to their strong anticholinergic and "anticognitive" effects. i think.
Ace, on the REM thing-- yeah many antidepressants are known to reduce the frequency and duration of REM sleep (and the rebound upon discontinuation). i've actually read that this is especially true with Nardil. So in regard to this Anafranil should be no worse. (i wish i knew what to tell you to do. but i can't even decide for myself). Good luck.
>"This is true; this is why TCAs are given for bed-wetting. I've not heard of SSRIs given for this condition."
Actually TCAs are probably given for bed-wetting because of their anticholinergic effect of , well, making it harder to urinate basically, and not because of their effects on sleep architecture.
Posted by SLS on May 1, 2003, at 8:51:19
In reply to Why Dirty Drug » SLS, posted by jack smith on April 30, 2003, at 17:01:40
Hi Jack.
> Scott, or others, why are TCA's and MAOI's referred to as dirty drugs? I have never quite understood this. Is it just because they are not selective.
Yes - and that the additional undesirable actions cause side-effects. Anafranil binds to and blocks many receptors, including histamine H1 (antihistaminergic) and acetylcholine (anticholinergic}. These two actions account for things like sedation, weight-gain, dry mouth, and constipation.
- Scott
Posted by MattD on May 3, 2003, at 18:21:20
In reply to Re.s, posted by Questionmark on April 30, 2003, at 20:52:49
> >"This is true; this is why TCAs are given for bed-wetting. I've not heard of SSRIs given for this condition."
>
> Actually TCAs are probably given for bed-wetting because of their anticholinergic effect of , well, making it harder to urinate basically, and not because of their effects on sleep architecture.This may be part of the explanation, too. But the reason for giving them primarily is their effect on sleep. It's significant that the more anticholinergic TCAs aren't the ones given; rather it's usually imipramine.
Matt
Posted by michael73 on May 3, 2003, at 22:08:30
In reply to Serious Anafranil REM phenomenon, PLS answer!, posted by ace on April 28, 2003, at 21:53:21
I'm doing profoundly better on just 25mg/day Anafranil. I sleep fine and even dream on this low dose. I take it in the morning because Anafranil essentially sharpens my mind. I'm confused and scared without it. None of the SSRI's work for me. At 50mg it tenses me up too much and I don't dream. For 5 years I took 37.5mg and didn't dream much. I was tired a lot but I was also taking 2mg Klonopin. If a higher dose gives you problems try just 25mg. Anafranil has an immediate effect on me - only as long as it takes to dissolve after I swallow it. Hope it works for you the same. I went through medication juggling at school too. Michael73
Posted by stjames on May 4, 2003, at 1:46:44
In reply to Re: Why Dirty Drug, posted by SLS on May 1, 2003, at 8:51:19
> Hi Jack.
>
> > Scott, or others, why are TCA's and MAOI's referred to as dirty drugs? I have never quite understood this. Is it just because they are not selective.Selective never seemed to work as hoped, given that the SSRI's have proven not as effective for more serious depressions. Poly-pharm makes drugs more "dirty" and tends to make the treatment more effective. This tends to disprove a number of neurotransmitter models for depression, also.
Dirty is also relative, as one persons unwanted side effects are anothers wanted effects. The only time in 30 years my allergies were mostly under control was the 5 or so years I was on TCA's.
Let's hear it for dirty drugs !
Posted by SLS on May 4, 2003, at 9:53:23
In reply to Re: Why Dirty Drug, posted by stjames on May 4, 2003, at 1:46:44
> Let's hear it for dirty drugs !Yay!
- Scott
Posted by Willow on May 5, 2003, at 9:39:34
In reply to Re: Why Dirty Drug, posted by stjames on May 4, 2003, at 1:46:44
> Dirty is also relative, as one persons unwanted side effects are anothers wanted effects. The only time in 30 years my allergies were mostly under control was the 5 or so years I was on TCA's.
My allergies started in my teens, after a flu shot which coincided with the worst sore throat and sinus cold I ever had. For a long time a constant running nose was a severe pain for me, only danger drowning on my own phlegm. Strange thing happened when I became ill was my sinuses cleared up for longer bouts. I thought it was because I would loose my sense of smell. But for the past several years on effexor, I do believe it has become a past issue for me. The cause of this is hard to say because around the same time I stopped using oral meds for my sinus problem and instead started using "flonase" a nasal spray. I haven't had to use it constantly probably less than a dozen times. So could the AD's have been a help? Loss of sense of smell? Or the nasal spray? Or did I just "out-grow" it?
Whistling Willow
Posted by stjames on May 8, 2003, at 1:16:09
In reply to Re: Why Dirty Drug Allergies, posted by Willow on May 5, 2003, at 9:39:34
> My allergies started in my teens, after a flu shot which coincided with the worst sore throat and sinus cold I ever had. But for the past several years on effexor, I do believe it has become a past issue for me.
Effexor has no anti-allergy effects, I wish it did as I take it. Quite common in Allergy is that the earlier in life the onset, the greater possibility of out growing them. Mine started at 17-18 and I am stuck with them.
The cause of this is hard to say because around the same time I stopped using oral meds for my sinus problem and instead started using "flonase" a nasal spray. I haven't had to use it constantly probably less than a dozen times. So could the AD's have been a help? Loss of sense of smell? Or the nasal spray? Or did I just "out-grow" it?
>
> Whistling Willow
>
This is the end of the thread.
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