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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by bookgurl99 on October 7, 2002, at 15:15:20
I'm on verapamil 80 mg 3x/day for migraine. This drug can also be used as a mood stabilizer in some cases? The downside? I'm not bipolar! I don't _need_ to be stabilized? Result, I'm feeling washed-out emotions. any solutions here?
bookgurl99
Posted by susan C on October 7, 2002, at 17:15:38
In reply to verapamil, posted by bookgurl99 on October 7, 2002, at 15:15:20
Good question, I am sorry I dont have any ideas, I have read so many bits about it lately, I cant keep them straight...you have shared your mood change with the doc? May need an adustment up or down in dose? I am in trial right now to see if it helps with BP2...no concrete results yet.
mouse
Posted by bookgurl99 on October 7, 2002, at 21:47:47
In reply to Re: verapamil, posted by susan C on October 7, 2002, at 17:15:38
Well, some positive sides to it -- if you get the generic, it's awfully cheap. I think I got a month's supply (80 mg 3x/day) for about 8 bucks. That really beats my zoloft's nearly $200.
I'm gonna call the doc tomorrow and let him know. I've just been on it for 3 days, and did notice immediate relief from neuro-style symptoms that I didn't know originated in migraine.
And I've been mildly happier, less irritable while on it. It's good for while I'm at my job as a relay operator, which requires a lot of patience. But the emotional numbing and slowed down thought process has a negative effect after work. I notice, though, that my emotions/cognition feel normal 5 hours after I take a dose.
How long have you been on it? Did you notice any improvement in bp2 symptoms or in side effects? How do you like the facial flushing?
bookgurl99
> Good question, I am sorry I dont have any ideas, I have read so many bits about it lately, I cant keep them straight...you have shared your mood change with the doc? May need an adustment up or down in dose? I am in trial right now to see if it helps with BP2...no concrete results yet.
> mouse
Posted by susan C on October 7, 2002, at 22:14:44
In reply to Re: verapamil, posted by bookgurl99 on October 7, 2002, at 21:47:47
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha...face flushing....ha ha ha ha ha, I am in menopause and am waging a battle with hotflashes, so, I havent noticed, ha ha ha ah ha ah.:) Plus, I didnt know that was a side effect...I am, ah, hitting the metamucil tho
Lets see, I have been on it about a month (building up) and notice the same as you, mildly happier, less irritable...doctor observes I am much better (ability to think and communicate). However, it is my experience, that my mood changes with the wind, and this could be coincidence. If a med doesnt get booted out with in the first month, due to side effects, i have to let it work for at least three months to see if it works at all. He switched me to the er version, so I now take it 2x rather than 4x day.
Does it help with your migraines?
mouse in the pill drawer
Posted by bookgurl99 on October 7, 2002, at 22:27:12
In reply to Re: verapamil, posted by susan C on October 7, 2002, at 22:14:44
> Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha...face flushing....ha ha ha ha ha, I am in menopause and am waging a battle with hotflashes, so, I havent noticed, ha ha ha ah ha ah.:)
Ok now THAT is funny. I'll think of you next time my face is bright red. :D
>He switched me to the er version, so I now take it 2x rather than 4x day.
I have read that for mood stabilizing, it works better if taken in the non-er version, just a thought.
>
> Does it help with your migraines?
>
It DOES. I didn't even know I was having migraines, by the way. I took my first pill and immediately felt an improvement in this 'sick' feeling I'd had for about a week. For months, I was having cognitive problems, word-finding difficulties, muscle jerks, and attention span and memory problems. The doc thought either it was severe migraines (tho' painless) with a long-lasting aura or hashimoto's encephalopathy. I'm hopin' it's migraine, because the h.e. would require me to take steroids. So far, an improvement. Which is good. Here's hopin' for a full recovery. :Dbookgurl99
Posted by susan C on October 8, 2002, at 10:17:27
In reply to Re: verapamil, posted by bookgurl99 on October 7, 2002, at 22:27:12
How interesting, I have always equated "migraine" with "pain"...though my son has "visual migraines" which are harmless and painless. He calls them "sparkles".
Yes, I had heard the non er version could be more effective, and I did ask about that, and, my understnding, is like many things, no body is certain. So, we will see.
What other medications do you take?
I am curious, I take depakote and this verapamil
mouse
Posted by bookgurl99 on October 8, 2002, at 23:08:57
In reply to Re: verapamil, posted by susan C on October 8, 2002, at 10:17:27
Susan,
Oh, I'm also on an SSRI, Zoloft, alternating between 25 mgs and 50 mgs (I'm a slow metabolizer so lower doses tend to work for me.).
I think the Zoloft + Verapamil blunt my emotions too much. At least, though, I can take the verapamil and feel the emotion-blunting effect wear off after about 5 hours. So it could be useful for work and situations where emotions aren't that important.I could see myself weaning off the Zoloft and just taking Verapamil now that I see it's mood-stabilizing effect.
But I went to therapy today, and I was tremendously matter-of-fact about everything. Kind of felt blank. I enjoy intensity. (In a healthy, non-manic, non-depressive, HUMAN sort of way, y'know?)
Do you feel 'balanced' or do you feel emotionless?
bookgurl99
Posted by susan C on October 9, 2002, at 11:14:52
In reply to Re: verapamil » susan C, posted by bookgurl99 on October 8, 2002, at 23:08:57
hi,
I never tried Zoloft in my SSRI days...all the others tho, especially after Prozac pooped out. My Dx is currently bipolar two and I can not take any ssri, they tend to activate manic.So far, I feel, just even. I have felt emotionless (depakote and perhaps ambien, read sedated) This is new, so perhaps balanced is a good word. It is hard to explain. The other day, I found myself humming along with the music, moving around...I expanded a recipe, with out even thinking, then, imagine! I was cooking! and I didnt get too agitated...I am still very suspicious.
this has got to go for several months..for me to say, yes, it isnt coincidence, it is the medication. The ULTIMATE test would then be to STOP it and see what happens, but I havent had the strength or courage to do that with depakote, I doubt I would be able to do it with verapamil. So, it would be nice to have a 'real' life back, instead of this roller coaster of ups and downs. I like the euphoria of the ups, but they tend to be very unrealistic ideas and are followed by devastating lows. Gosh, something just, normal would be nice. Normal, where I get an idea to do something, follow through on it, enjoy it and move on to the next thing.
Knowing with confidence that my moods will not trip me up unexpectedly, that I can depend on how I will feel from one day to the next. Gosh!! What a concept.
Maybe I will start a tread over in Social...
What Do You Want When You Are Well?
or
What will tell you when you are well?Heres to the day
mouse
Posted by bookgurl99 on October 10, 2002, at 21:36:41
In reply to Re: verapamil, posted by susan C on October 9, 2002, at 11:14:52
Susan,
Okay, end week one on verapamil. I notice that when I'm on it, when it's in effect, I'm very calm, although my thinking feels slow. Then when it wears off, I'm 'smart' again, but quite moody -- moodier than I would be if I hadn't stayed 'modulated' all along. Do you know what I mean?
Is this a normal reaction to a mood stabilizing drug?
bookgurl99
Posted by Ritch on October 11, 2002, at 23:12:28
In reply to Re: verapamil, posted by susan C on October 9, 2002, at 11:14:52
....So far, I feel, just even. I have felt emotionless (depakote and perhaps ambien, read sedated) This is new, so perhaps balanced is a good word. It is hard to explain. The other day, I found myself humming along with the music, moving around...I expanded a recipe, with out even thinking, then, imagine! I was cooking! and I didnt get too agitated...I am still very suspicious.
this has got to go for several months..for me to say, yes, it isnt coincidence, it is the medication. The ULTIMATE test would then be to STOP it and see what happens, but I havent had the strength or courage to do that with depakote, I doubt I would be able to do it with verapamil. So, it would be nice to have a 'real' life back, instead of this roller coaster of ups and downs. I like the euphoria of the ups, but they tend to be very unrealistic ideas and are followed by devastating lows. Gosh, something just, normal would be nice. Normal, where I get an idea to do something, follow through on it, enjoy it and move on to the next thing.....
Susan, if you are going to try the verapamil over the course of weeks, it would be nice to hear about updates (I remember your Keppra journal). The reason I ask is my pdoc mentioned it in the last visit (first time ever). I wonder if there is a very recently published study with verapamil that noone here has read-from reading your post it seems like it has enhanced your cognitive functioning somehow.
Mitch
Posted by susan C on October 12, 2002, at 10:30:33
In reply to Re: verapamil » susan C, posted by Ritch on October 11, 2002, at 23:12:28
hi mitch,
Exactly, 'enhanced', that is what doc said...must have something to do with blocking my calcium channels? I dont much like my digestive channel blocked, but, hey, I can deal with that, I hope.:)
I have done some searches on google, with bipolar verapamil calcium channel blocker and studies...the usual suspects were unearthed. My doc gave me a copyof a study from the early 90's and a commentary about why it isnt studied much (it is generic), which I will find and post a reference for you. I have been hoping to find others who have taken it for the very reason you are...birds of a feather flock together, comfort in numbers?One of the real benefits I see so far, is it is a
'gentle' thing, no common bad side effects, unless you count the constipation.I will keep posting here.
mouse with a mission
Posted by Ritch on October 12, 2002, at 22:15:24
In reply to Re: verapamil, posted by susan C on October 12, 2002, at 10:30:33
> hi mitch,
> Exactly, 'enhanced', that is what doc said...must have something to do with blocking my calcium channels? I dont much like my digestive channel blocked, but, hey, I can deal with that, I hope.:)
> I have done some searches on google, with bipolar verapamil calcium channel blocker and studies...the usual suspects were unearthed. My doc gave me a copyof a study from the early 90's and a commentary about why it isnt studied much (it is generic), which I will find and post a reference for you. I have been hoping to find others who have taken it for the very reason you are...birds of a feather flock together, comfort in numbers?
>
> One of the real benefits I see so far, is it is a
> 'gentle' thing, no common bad side effects, unless you count the constipation.
>
> I will keep posting here.
>
> mouse with a missionHi Susan, thanks for responding. If I can get some cognitive 'enhancement' without stimulants/AD's that will also stabilize my mood as a side-bonus, hey count me in! I mentioned back to my pdoc when verapamil was brought up that Neurontin is a selective calcium-channel blocker. Neurontin helped with anx. and for focus, but I get smooth muscle spasms from it (thoracic chest wall spasm, and eustachian tube "thumps",etc, at higher doses)-which is a dose-limiting factor. Anyhow, I would be willing to check out other Calcium ion channel blockers to see if they are also effective. As far as the *constipation* is concerned....I would find that a beneficial side effect since I tend to have the opposite effect from most meds that work well, such as SSRI's. BTW, have you heard anything about nicotinic receptor meds, or Aricept being used for ADHD/depression?....Mitch
Posted by susan C on October 13, 2002, at 12:33:32
In reply to Re: verapamil » susan C, posted by Ritch on October 12, 2002, at 22:15:24
>have you heard anything about nicotinic receptor meds, or Aricept being used for ADHD/depression?....
Nope, not heard about that one...
Here is the information I promised:
Verapamil Versus Lithium in Acute Mania
Clinical and Research Report
Am J Psychiatry 149:1, January 1992
Enrique S. Garza-Trevino, M.D., John E. Overall, PhD, and Leo E. Hollister, MDEditorial Why Don't We Hear More About the Calcium Antagonists? An Industry-Academia Interaction
1994 Society of Biological Psychiatry
0006-3223/94/$07.00
Steven L. Dubovsky
Posted by bookgurl99 on October 13, 2002, at 18:12:11
In reply to Re: verapamil » susan C, posted by Ritch on October 12, 2002, at 22:15:24
Not being bp, but having anxiety and (apparently) acute migraines with extended aura, I have taken v for a week now. (80 mg x 3/day).
I noticed migraine improvement immediately, although I still get aura. As for mood, more balanced and unflappable. At first I felt bleached out emotions, but that effect is wearing off. I seem to have better concentration and motivation -- I actually want to clean the bathtub ring! -- but I experience my overall cognition as slower.
Downsides: Not only am I getting the constipation side effect, but I am also really
hungry! This drug makes refined carbs taste really really good. Maybe by affecting the amount of calcium/potassium in the body, it somehow enhances flavor. I am going to have to work really hard on fighting the urge to taste how good everythinge is. I could easily see gaining weight from that side effect.Susan, how are you?
Bookgurl99
Posted by Ritch on October 16, 2002, at 12:58:17
In reply to verapamil experience, week 1, posted by bookgurl99 on October 13, 2002, at 18:12:11
>.....This drug makes refined carbs taste really really good. Maybe by affecting the amount of calcium/potassium in the body, it somehow enhances flavor. I am going to have to work really hard on fighting the urge to taste how good everythinge is. I could easily see gaining weight from that side effect...
> Bookgurl99Uh OH, that doesn't sound too good. I am really sensitive to meds that have carb cravings! When I get my seasonal winter depression, all I want to eat is potatoes, rice, pasta, gravy, pie... That with Depakote could be a real pound-packer!
Posted by Ritch on October 16, 2002, at 13:19:39
In reply to Re: verapamil, posted by susan C on October 13, 2002, at 12:33:32
> >have you heard anything about nicotinic receptor meds, or Aricept being used for ADHD/depression?....
>
> Nope, not heard about that one...
>
> Here is the information I promised:
>
> Verapamil Versus Lithium in Acute Mania
> Clinical and Research Report
> Am J Psychiatry 149:1, January 1992
> Enrique S. Garza-Trevino, M.D., John E. Overall, PhD, and Leo E. Hollister, MD
>
> Editorial Why Don't We Hear More About the Calcium Antagonists? An Industry-Academia Interaction
> 1994 Society of Biological Psychiatry
> 0006-3223/94/$07.00
> Steven L. DubovskySusan:
Here are some links about nicotinic receptors. The neat thing in there (I thought anyhow) was the development of new chronic pain meds.
Mitch
http://www.mjm.mcgill.ca/issues/v05n02/v05p090/v05p090main.htm
http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v279n21/ffull/jmn0603-1.html
http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/13e79a.htm
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