![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 30. Go back in thread:
Posted by TomV on September 12, 2000, at 10:54:16
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose, posted by stjames on September 12, 2000, at 1:19:00
> > > I have taken 3o milligrams of ativan with a bit of aclohol, over the past day. Can I just wait it out? I also cut up my arms some more, just bandaged em, they stopped bleeding.
> > > thanks
> > > vesper
> >
> > The mere fact that you're still able to be this coherent to write about your experience says something in itself. No you can't just wait it out. Find someone to stay with you and talk with you for a day or so if you won't go to an emergency room. Life is too valuable to waste that way.
>
> James here.....
>
> Something is fishy here. There is not way in hell
> anyone can take even 10 mgs + ethonal and be coherant.
> I've taken ativan for years and at over 200 lbs there is
> no way I would be awake and able to type on 30 mgs/day.
> I've given all I can, Vesper, you don't seem to want to
> get better. I hope you will but I am going to direct my
> attention elsewhere, I really hate it when I feel used or
> that others are not being truthful. I don't question
> your pain but I think something else is going on here.
>
> jamesDitto...these posts are way too fishy. People bare their souls on this page; are you bearing your own? Or is this some kind of game.
Posted by Vesper on September 12, 2000, at 11:11:14
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose, posted by TomV on September 12, 2000, at 10:54:16
You can believe me or not, I just wantd a little feedback. i took 10mg ativan 2 nights ago, and slept until the next night, when I took 10 more with one small drink, which still didn't do much except maake it hard to concentrate of stay awake.I took 10 more, I think that makes 30..I have taken 60+ klonopin in the past A long time ago--then i stayed asleep for a couple of days, i think. i have no interest in playin g games, and i you think that's what i'm doing, i will not do any more posts. i waantd advice on what to do now, but if you thinkg i'm making things up, obviously thats not going to happn. Thanks anyway for this board, it has helped me in the past.
--Vesper
Posted by alicefranklin on September 12, 2000, at 14:14:11
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose, posted by Vesper on September 12, 2000, at 11:11:14
Posted by alicefranklin on September 12, 2000, at 14:36:01
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose, posted by Vesper on September 12, 2000, at 11:11:14
I can believe you. Someone I know recently overdosed. (I won't go into amounts here.) He only slept for 6 hours. But he was very sick for several weeks. Didn't see a doctor. He should have, and so should you. Please go to your doctor immediately and tell him/her exactly what you took.
(This person did eventually tell a doctor, thank god, and the doctor was able to help end the after-effects, or some of them.)
Posted by Vesper on September 12, 2000, at 17:20:10
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose » Vesper, posted by alicefranklin on September 12, 2000, at 14:36:01
> I can believe you. Someone I know recently overdosed. (I won't go into amounts here.) He only slept for 6 hours. But he was very sick for several weeks. Didn't see a doctor. He should have, and so should you. Please go to your doctor immediately and tell him/her exactly what you took.
Thank you. That is the kind of input I was looking for. I feel ok, just kind of groggy and cant'stay out of bed for too long. I was just wondering if I can just wait it out, or whethere I needed to see a doctor, for that amount, and seeing as I am still conscioius. I didn't want to be locked up for no reason, if I can recover from this at home.
Thank you.
Posted by Mark H. on September 12, 2000, at 17:39:04
In reply to My ativan overdose, posted by Vesper on September 11, 2000, at 16:19:30
Be sure to let me know right away if you ever:
1.) Give a straight answer to an honest question;
2.) Responsibly seek treatment for yourself and subsequently keep your agreements with your care providers, including showing up for your appointments and not overdosing on the meds with which you've been entrusted;
3.) Decide to get well, as evidenced by exerting the self control necessary to stay in therapy, maintain a medication regime, and stop hurting yourself;
4.) Stop ripping off the people who care about you by repeatedly threatening suicide and self-harm, refusing to follow their advice or answer their questions when they reach out to you, and by being hurt and withdrawn when they become angry about your lack of integrity and abuse of their trust.
Mark H.
Posted by Vesper on September 12, 2000, at 17:45:01
In reply to Eternal Victim Converts Rescuers to Persecutors, posted by Mark H. on September 12, 2000, at 17:39:04
> Be sure to let me know right away if you ever:
>
> 1.) Give a straight answer to an honest question;
>
> 2.) Responsibly seek treatment for yourself and subsequently keep your agreements with your care providers, including showing up for your appointments and not overdosing on the meds with which you've been entrusted;
>
> 3.) Decide to get well, as evidenced by exerting the self control necessary to stay in therapy, maintain a medication regime, and stop hurting yourself;
>
> 4.) Stop ripping off the people who care about you by repeatedly threatening suicide and self-harm, refusing to follow their advice or answer their questions when they reach out to you, and by being hurt and withdrawn when they become angry about your lack of integrity and abuse of their trust.
>
> Mark H.
What question did I not give a "straight" answer to?
Who threatened suicied? I simply did something which I regret and was looking for feedback.
Who became hurt and withdrawn? I simply clarified my position.
While I agree with some of the things you said, they are easier said than done, and if I can't be perfect at them, are you saying I should stay off this list?
Just wondering. This is not a flame or anything, just a request for clarification.
yours,
V.
Posted by Mark H. on September 12, 2000, at 19:41:39
In reply to Re: Eternal Victim Converts Rescuers to Persecutors » Mark H., posted by Vesper on September 12, 2000, at 17:45:01
Dear Vesper,
At the risk of being taken in by the sincerity of your reply, I’ll respond to your questions in order:
“What question did I not give a straight answer to?”
From Shar:
1.) What are you willing to do to resolve this situation?
2.) Are you willing to call your pdoc and tell him or her all of this?
3.) Are you willing to go to the ER and let them know?
4.) Are you willing to get hospitalization?
5.) Are you willing not to do anything?That was from her first paragraph. You could start by answering each of them. Then later, she suggested/asked (and remember, not every question ends with a question mark):
6.) Will you call a trusted friend and take his advice?
7.) Will you stop drinking and taking Ativan?
8.) Will you stop cutting yourself?
9.) Will you seek some help?Gordon offered his opinion that waiting it out was not a good idea. He suggested/asked:
10.) Will you find someone to stay with you?
James effectively asked,
10.) How can you take 30mg of Ativan and some alcohol “over the past day” and still be coherent?
11.) Is something else going on here?TomV asked,
12.) People bare their souls on this page; are you bearing your own?
Alicefranklin suggested/asked,
13.) Will you go to your doctor immediately and tell him/her exactly what you took?
Whether asked as direct questions, as by Shar and TomV, or whether as implied questions, it would be minimally polite and responsive to offer your answer and explanations to each of the dozen or so items listed above.
“Who threatened suicide? I simply did something which I regret and was looking for feedback.”
Vesper, responding to other people’s concerns, questions and advice by writing, “I like the feeling of kind of slipping away like this into unreality. Somebody shooting me now while I’m not looking would be good” not only shows your disregard for their time and interest in you, but also clearly states a desire to die. Taken together with your admission of having cut yourself and your many past expressions of suicidal ideation, a reasonable person will take your statement to be a suicide threat.
Also, after receiving unanimous opinions that what you’ve done is seriously dangerous, how is someone supposed to interpret your follow-up question: “I mean, if I take more, will it build up?” Why would you take more if, as you claim, you regret what you already took? Do you understand how your question effectively spits in the face of every person who has ever offered you support on this list?
“Who became hurt and withdrawn? I simply clarified my position.”
In replying to TomV you wrote, “I have no interest in playing games, and if you think that’s what I’m doing, [then] I will not do any more posts.” I’ll limit my quoted examples to this thread, but I remember many times in the past when you’ve threatened to leave in response to comments that were even remotely critical of your behavior towards yourself or others, and this is another example.
“While I agree with some of the things you said, they are easier said than done, and if I can’t be perfect at them, are you saying I should stay off this list? Just wondering. This is not a flame or anything, just a request for clarification.”
Thank you for your questions and your lack of animosity. To clarify, I agree that the things I’ve mentioned, and that many people on this list have struggled with and accomplished, are far easier said than done. I do not expect you to be perfect. I do not think you should leave this list, for any reason.
But regret is not enough. You also need to commit to change and to getting well. Your pattern of showing up on the list to tell us that you’ve hit bottom, been kicked out of a program for non-compliance, are desperate and want to die, that you’ve overdosed on Ativan three times in the last 48 hours or so and wonder what the effect would be of taking more, and asking for advice and feedback that you neither acknowledge nor respond to in any meaningful way CREATES the abandonment that you experience. St. James is generally the soul of compassion and patience. What does it mean that such a kind person feels he has to give up on you and put his energy and attention elsewhere?
Start by answering people’s questions directly and honestly, which will show respect for their efforts and help you to clarify what you are willing to change about yourself. Keep the agreements you make. Commit to getting well and to keeping your appointments. Make staying sober and not hurting yourself your top priority.
Vesper, when you begin the path of healing and start sharing your successes and your progress, your newfound impulse control, your commitment to practicing harmlessness when you feel like hurting yourself, and take an active interest in the healing of others, hundreds of people on this list will be inspired and uplifted by your efforts.Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by Vesper on September 12, 2000, at 20:34:19
In reply to I Hope This Isn't Just A Big Waste Of Time, posted by Mark H. on September 12, 2000, at 19:41:39
>
> 6.) Will you call a trusted friend and take his advice?
> 7.) Will you stop drinking and taking Ativan?
> 8.) Will you stop cutting yourself?
> 9.) Will you seek some help?
>
> Gordon offered his opinion that waiting it out was not a good idea. He suggested/asked:
>
> 10.) Will you find someone to stay with you?
>
> James effectively asked,
>
> 10.) How can you take 30mg of Ativan and some alcohol “over the past day” and still be coherent?
> 11.) Is something else going on here?
>
> TomV asked,
>
> 12.) People bare their souls on this page; are you bearing your own?
>
> Alicefranklin suggested/asked,
>
> 13.) Will you go to your doctor immediately and tell him/her exactly what you took?
>
> Whether asked as direct questions, as by Shar and TomV, or whether as implied questions, it would be minimally polite and responsive to offer your answer and explanations to each of the dozen or so items listed above.
>
> “Who threatened suicide? I simply did something which I regret and was looking for feedback.”
>
> Vesper, responding to other people’s concerns, questions and advice by writing, “I like the feeling of kind of slipping away like this into unreality. Somebody shooting me now while I’m not looking would be good” not only shows your disregard for their time and interest in you, but also clearly states a desire to die. Taken together with your admission of having cut yourself and your many past expressions of suicidal ideation, a reasonable person will take your statement to be a suicide threat.
>
> Also, after receiving unanimous opinions that what you’ve done is seriously dangerous, how is someone supposed to interpret your follow-up question: “I mean, if I take more, will it build up?” Why would you take more if, as you claim, you regret what you already took? Do you understand how your question effectively spits in the face of every person who has ever offered you support on this list?
>
> “Who became hurt and withdrawn? I simply clarified my position.”
>
> In replying to TomV you wrote, “I have no interest in playing games, and if you think that’s what I’m doing, [then] I will not do any more posts.” I’ll limit my quoted examples to this thread, but I remember many times in the past when you’ve threatened to leave in response to comments that were even remotely critical of your behavior towards yourself or others, and this is another example.
>
> “While I agree with some of the things you said, they are easier said than done, and if I can’t be perfect at them, are you saying I should stay off this list? Just wondering. This is not a flame or anything, just a request for clarification.”
>
> Thank you for your questions and your lack of animosity. To clarify, I agree that the things I’ve mentioned, and that many people on this list have struggled with and accomplished, are far easier said than done. I do not expect you to be perfect. I do not think you should leave this list, for any reason.
>
> But regret is not enough. You also need to commit to change and to getting well. Your pattern of showing up on the list to tell us that you’ve hit bottom, been kicked out of a program for non-compliance, are desperate and want to die, that you’ve overdosed on Ativan three times in the last 48 hours or so and wonder what the effect would be of taking more, and asking for advice and feedback that you neither acknowledge nor respond to in any meaningful way CREATES the abandonment that you experience. St. James is generally the soul of compassion and patience. What does it mean that such a kind person feels he has to give up on you and put his energy and attention elsewhere?
>
> Start by answering people’s questions directly and honestly, which will show respect for their efforts and help you to clarify what you are willing to change about yourself. Keep the agreements you make. Commit to getting well and to keeping your appointments. Make staying sober and not hurting yourself your top priority.
>
>
> Vesper, when you begin the path of healing and start sharing your successes and your progress, your newfound impulse control, your commitment to practicing harmlessness when you feel like hurting yourself, and take an active interest in the healing of others, hundreds of people on this list will be inspired and uplifted by your efforts.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Mark H.Thank you mark for your thoughtful reply. Rather than make any more defensive comments, I will attempt to address the items you raised. >
1.) What are you willing to do to resolve this situation?
> 2.) Are you willing to call your pdoc and tell him or her all of this?
> 3.) Are you willing to go to the ER and let them know?
> 4.) Are you willing to get hospitalization?
> 5.) Are you willing not to do anything?
I have called my pdoc and case manager, who are aware of the situation. I am going in to see them tomorrow, and do what they recommend. >6.) Will you call a trusted friend and take his advice?
> 7.) Will you stop drinking and taking Ativan?
> 8.) Will you stop cutting yourself?
> 9.) Will you seek some help?
I have done all of these things today. >
> 10.) Will you find someone to stay with you?
>
> James effectively asked,
>
> 10.) How can you take 30mg of Ativan and some alcohol “over the past day” and still be coherent?
> 11.) Is something else going on here?
>
> TomV asked,
>
> 12.) People bare their souls on this page; are you bearing your own?I don't know how to answer 10. Yes, I took a lot of ativan, and after sleeping most of a day, I was somewhat coherent.
Is something else going on here? like what? Part of it is wanting attention, I suppose, if I'm honest. I didn't say anything untrue though.
Baring my soul? I don't know what that means. I'm telling the truth as I experience it at the moment, which I realize may not coincide with objective reality.
Anyway, saying that I post only with crises and don't acknowledge feedback is not true. I have had vast improvements at times in the past and have posted accordingly, and I have also thanked those who have helped me, when I can.Is this list for people who get better, and keep getting better with no symptoms beyond an "acceptable Range?" I'm sorry if I upset people and post without thinking things out well. I ask your pardon.
--V
Posted by Mark H. on September 12, 2000, at 21:00:05
In reply to Re: I Hope This Isn't Just A Big Waste Of Time, posted by Vesper on September 12, 2000, at 20:34:19
Vesper,
And I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your reply, and for sharing that you have contacted your care providers, will see them tomorrow and plan to follow their directions. That reassurance makes my day!
If I have overlooked or not read your postings of follow-through in the past, I apologize. You may decide for yourself whether anything I've said today has a grain of truth in it, even if I've been mistaken in the details.
I wish for you: health, happiness and fulfillment. We are all on this path together.
Mark H.
Posted by alicefranklin on September 12, 2000, at 21:13:35
In reply to Re: I Hope This Isn't Just A Big Waste Of Time, posted by Vesper on September 12, 2000, at 20:34:19
Vesper: Please don't ask our pardon. Please ask YOUR pardon, forgive yourself, and please STOP THIS BEHAVIOR!!!
You have hurt no-one but yourself. Please STOP. Re-read Shar's post. It is time to help yourself.
I'm glad to hear you're seeing the doctor tomorrow, and that you're going to do whatever she/he tells you to do. There is no need to feel guilt about your posts here. Don't detract attention from your own pain by worrying about what pain you may have caused people here. Believe me, we'll get over it.
It is time to take responsibility for yourself, to do what is needed to end this self-destructive behavior. We can't do it for you. Nothing we say or do can replace self-initiative.
You must decide to take the necessary steps.
My "friend" (actually my brother) said he told himself if he lived through this he would know he was meant to live. OK. You've lived through it.
Now LIVE!!
I wish you strength and endurance.
Posted by alicefranklin on September 12, 2000, at 21:43:25
In reply to Re: I Hope This Isn't Just A Big Waste Of Time, posted by alicefranklin on September 12, 2000, at 21:13:35
P.S. Please keep us informed of the positive steps you've taken to help yourself. ( And you can post about the inevitable back-sliding, too.) But the main thing is, take the first steps. We will applaud; we will care.
Posted by shar on September 12, 2000, at 23:07:54
In reply to Thank You, Vesper!, posted by Mark H. on September 12, 2000, at 21:00:05
V: I am the High Priestess of Suicidal Ideation. However, IMHO it is always good to have your guidelines and policies firmly in place before you go in that direction.
IMHO It would behoove you to consider the issue further than dying means you are not in pain (or whatever it means for you). You might also consider where you will end up.
If you believe it'll be a garage in Buffalo, good enough. If you believe otherwise, you might, maybe come to the conclusion that it may be easier here (relatively speaking).
It's worth the time, I think. I have my own beliefs and it is what I believe that stops me more than anything else. I'm not especially religious, or thoughtful of others, etc. when I think of suicide. But, I do think "do I want to go where I think I'll go?" So far it's always no.
Stay with me.
time it was
oh what a time it was
a time of innocence
a time of confidences
long ago it must be
I have a photograph
preserve your memories
they're all that's left you.Si, Gar, and Me
Posted by alicefranklin on September 13, 2000, at 22:09:33
In reply to Vesper, posted by shar on September 12, 2000, at 23:07:54
Vesper, how did it go today? Did you see your doctor?
Posted by kazoo on September 14, 2000, at 0:05:44
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose, posted by stjames on September 12, 2000, at 1:19:00
> > > I have taken 3o milligrams of ativan with a bit of aclohol, over the past day. Can I just wait it out? I also cut up my arms some more, just bandaged em, they stopped bleeding.
> > > thanks
> > > vesper
>
> James here.....
>
> Something is fishy here. There is not way in hell
> anyone can take even 10 mgs + ethonal and be coherant.
> james^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I agree.
They bait hooks, don't they?
kazoo
Posted by Vesper on September 14, 2000, at 2:25:27
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose, posted by kazoo on September 14, 2000, at 0:05:44
> > James here.....
> >
> > Something is fishy here. There is not way in hell
> > anyone can take even 10 mgs + ethonal and be coherant.
Why don't you try getting the facts on this before talking out your ass. I have no reason to lie, and frankly am a little tired of idiots like you spouting off before doing any research.
Fuck you.
Posted by alicefranklin on September 14, 2000, at 7:10:02
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose, posted by kazoo on September 14, 2000, at 0:05:44
It seems to me that it would be wiser, as well as kinder, to keep your doubts to yourself. What if you're wrong? You have hurt someone already in pain. What if you're right? So what? What have you accomplished, exactly? Is it worth the risk?
Posted by Vesper on September 14, 2000, at 11:52:19
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose kazoo, st. j., posted by alicefranklin on September 14, 2000, at 7:10:02
I apologize for the previous post, in which I was less than civil.
--V.
Posted by kazoo on September 14, 2000, at 12:40:40
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose kazoo, st. j., posted by Vesper on September 14, 2000, at 11:52:19
> I apologize for the previous post, in which I was less than civil.
> --V.^^^^^^^^^
And I apologize, too, my dear, for leaping before I looked.
But I want you to bear in mind that if "we" (the collective
mob here) didn't give a shit about *you*, then there would be
no postings at all. The fact is that we obviously do, and
sometimes mistakes in judgement are made.Be nice ... :-)
kazoo
Posted by Vesper on September 14, 2000, at 12:53:28
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose kazoo, st. j., posted by kazoo on September 14, 2000, at 12:40:40
> > I apologize for the previous post, in which I was less than civil.
> > --V.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^
> And I apologize, too, my dear, for leaping before I looked.
> But I want you to bear in mind that if "we" (the collective
> mob here) didn't give a shit about *you*, then there would be
> no postings at all. The fact is that we obviously do, and
> sometimes mistakes in judgement are made.
>
> Be nice ... :-)
>
> kazooYou know, I used to be VERY nice. I NEVER would have said or written anything like that rude post. I wonder what happened to me?
sorry again.
Posted by kazoo on September 18, 2000, at 1:25:18
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose kazoo, st. j., posted by Vesper on September 14, 2000, at 12:53:28
> You know, I used to be VERY nice. I NEVER would have said or written anything like that rude post. I wonder what happened to me?
> sorry again.^^^^^^^^^^
And I'm sure you are still a very nice person.
People spout off and say horrible things because they're angry, and we *ALL* do this, so it's part of the
"human condition" ... learn to accept the fact that it happens ... live with it ... and avoid it.
But let me tell you, for me, I have to work at it.
Get me going and you'd think I was in competition at a swearing contest at a State Trooper Convention.
Yes, my dear, I was told that sometimes I have the foulest mouth this side of Neptune ... but I'm still working
at it. I wonder if there's a link between mental problems and the use of vulgarities? Is this worth a study?I remain,
a kinder, gentler and wiser
kazoo
Posted by dove on September 18, 2000, at 9:43:39
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose kazoo, st. j., posted by kazoo on September 18, 2000, at 1:25:18
I would add that releasing anger either in verbal or written exchanges can be a good sign, especially for those who often shut-down or withdraw when faced with problematic emotions. Vesper's reaction, even being uncivil, does show that there is some fight left, and that's a good thing! My husband can always tell when I'm truly degenerating by my loss of fight, and my dull lifeless silence.
dove
Posted by Racer on September 18, 2000, at 20:49:57
In reply to Re: I Hope This Isn't Just A Big Waste Of Time, posted by Vesper on September 12, 2000, at 20:34:19
> Whew, what a long read!
Vesper, someone obviously has attention to offer you, since MarkH spent so much time typing, after investing a good deal of time thinking this through. Helps, doesn't it?
I've got a couple of questions, too:
1. You sound young to me. Are you? If so, do you have support around you, family, trustworthy friends?
2. How long have you been in this state? Has anything at all helped?
3. Still acting on the guess that I'm bigger than you are ;-), what activities do you engage in for recreation? I know that I certainly did some things that made me feel better -- at the time -- when I was younger.
4. Do you trust your doctor? If not, can you make other arrangements? (BTW, go back a year or so to see how much I really *do* know about this subject!)
5. Do you live alone? Is there someone nearby you can turn to for companionship?
6. You don't have to be perfect. I think that what people here react both to what's expressed here, and to their own reactions as well. Yeah, if you were making this up, you'd be a jerk. On the other hand, most of us have experienced that place where you may want things to be better, but certainly aren't currently able to do anything towards that.
Try, dear. It's tough, no doubt about it. Even when the drugs work, as they are for me now, life's not always pleasant. The trade off, of course, is that the sun really does still shine, and there really is joy in the world. Of course, you have to be alive to experience it...
Posted by tim carr on August 10, 2002, at 11:27:11
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose DR.BOB PLS READ THREAD, posted by alicefranklin on September 12, 2000, at 14:14:11
ativan is not the best to committ suicide. I to 45mgs and my speech was slurred, i was running into walls ansd this lasted for a couple of days. suicide is justified in certainn circumstances but there are much more effective wayss, like xxx. seems to me that vesper is just trying to draws attention to himmself.take it fromm mew theree are much easier wayss to leavew this world than ativan
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 10, 2002, at 17:28:23
In reply to Re: My ativan overdose DR.BOB PLS READ THREAD, posted by tim carr on August 10, 2002, at 11:27:11
> there are much more effective wayss, like xxx. seems to me that vesper is just trying to draws attention to himmself.
I don't consider it supportive to discuss ways to kill yourself or civil to jump to conclusions about others.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted, thanks.
This is the end of the thread.
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