![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 61. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 22:38:08
I got chasted for recommending Extasy in a previous thread to a sensible person who wanted drug recommendations to get him back into music..
Obviously extasy is a music drug...thats its main function...this brings an interesting argument regarding drugs...
some of us are obviously mature ..and strong enough in mind to use non legal drugs sensibly...after all an enormous market for recreational drugs exist purely for non illness related use...
The way I see it is that drugs are chemicals..we introduce (hopefully) of free will ...many are illegal because if used persistantly they are very dangerous or threatning to our behaviours and moods...
I learned about taking drugs thru illness and then I realized about the illegal ones and tried them too...
today at any given time I have both legal and non legal drugs..and I let good sense indicate whats the right amount ..or time to take them...
I may have a more modern view in that I see we have a limited life and that adjuncting prescription drugs with those with no practical function gives an added pleasure to life..times of intense creativity and altered "states" of mind which have done nothing but help me to grow or experience "time" and my senses ..in ways that I could not imagine non chemical experience could or has done..
Whatever has gone wrong that made me a psychiatric case to begin with..I have to say that having the non legal drugs to hand with some obvious common sense had helped me resolve really deep seated problems...
I take non legal drugs on an occasional ..one time basis... not to help my more serious problems...but as something to help lift something good to something great..a sort of amplification agent for reality ..not the other way round..
Taking ectasy for example has helped me purge the intense grief of death..taking perhaps three years out of that process...maybe I would never have done it without that..
Taking cannibas provided me with amazing periods of insight into reflective periods where I can look and laugh at some of the things I do...a higher state of self awareness..
Taking heroin (not injecting) has provided me with a physical rush that helped kick start a bodybuilding regime...(remember i'm talking about one time ..and not habitual use)
the list goes on and on...and my life is richer for all these colours and structures I can give to how I percieve...
I don't live thru drugs..they help enhance or give another insight to how I live while I'm here...I have a very rich and varied life and the only drug that ever hooked me was Benzos..a legal drug..
Nearly every drug problem I have had was with side effects of the prescribed ones I have to take..but thats not a criticsm of them ..just an observation ...
the crux of what i'm trying to say is that the illegal drugs are actually illegal mainly because they get you hooked (if you don't have good sense) or cause you harm..but mainly its because they don't have a practical use....after all ask yourself..just how many recreational drugs can you buy legally ?
none..why...perhaps its just too new an idea to have recreational drugs..or just that no government wants to take responsibility for something thats non productive..
but they would'nt be availible if they did'nt enhance how we live..
Also most illegal drugs are better researched than some of the untried cocktails that we see here..in the sense that word of mouth provides all we need to know..
Psychobabble seems like the front line for the legal ones and I would hate to guess how many people have died who used to post here..due to problems..with legal cocktails...how could we know ? perhaps we should.. of course many die thru illegal ones too..but to deny ourselves pleasure by having no legal recreational drugs seems perverse too...as humans our lives are our mental existance ..it seems to me we have just realized how the brain works..and all this is new...so most of its not legal..
legalizing recreational drugs would eliminate many of the problems as the clean production and usage rules would guide the non-sensible.
I never had any drugs before the age of 25...and perhaps being a full adult (whatever that really means) helped me have the necessary depth to know who I was...but could you say that of kids force fed Ritalin ?
Perhaps only a small percentage of us have what it takes mentally to navigate ourselves thru these chemical options with common sense usage for the better...certainly ten years later...my life has gone from horrible to great..but I would say hand on heart that the illegal ones have helped play 50% part in that process.
Posted by adamie on June 3, 2002, at 22:53:05
In reply to Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 22:38:08
'too bad' all that illegal drug use causes heavy brain damage. not to mention other problems. these drugs are part of what ruins our society. unless someone absolutely needs one due to severe mental illness where they feel suicidal i would not recommend one.
Posted by Xevious on June 3, 2002, at 23:47:54
In reply to Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 22:38:08
Two comments, as I agree with some of your sentiments but am quite conflicted over the debate you raised:
First, in regards to your comment about no recreational drugs being legal in the United States, I'd like to point out that I know of at least three, not including various herbal concoctions that you can get at your local health food store or herbalist - Alcohol, Caffeine, and Nicotine. All perfectly legal, all completely recreational.
The main difference between legal and illegal recreational substances, politics aside, is that in principle, illegal substances have been shown to have serious detrimental effects to the health of their users. In practice, I agree with you that politics has perhaps a greater role than it should, as both alcohol and nicotine can be quite dangerous and THC can be rather benign; still, the matter is that a great many people, perhaps the majority of people who *would* try drugs, are unable to simply try drugs once or twice, and instead have a predisposition towards abuse.
This brings up my second point, namely that a significant amount of illegal substance "abusers" are most likely using street drugs to self-medicate conditions that are treatable using much safer prescription medications. These people arguably have a much greater tendency towards addiction and abuse, as their need is great and illegal drugs tend to cause further organic damage, creating a self-amplifying cycle of abuse and injury.
This is perhaps the most compelling reason for me why illicit substances should not be made readily available, but I do have to admit that I'm no fan of government over-regulation; because of the DEA and FDA's overzealousness, my doctor has to be concerned about a possible investigation into his motives for prescribing psychostimulants, and valuable psychiatric drugs such as MDMA (Ecstasy) and LSD have been made completely untouchable, whereas arguably more dangerous substances like coccaine are commonly used in dental practice.
Strange world we live in...
Posted by SassyMom33 on June 4, 2002, at 3:06:47
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by Xevious on June 3, 2002, at 23:47:54
A strange world we live in? Maybe. Mostly, a sad one. What a sad, sad world. Nicely said, Adamie & Xevious!
Adamie...it is REALLY great to see you posting, and offering your opinions/insite...I hope to take that as meaning you are doing better. If not, maybe on your way, eh? (((HUGS))) That is great news!
Posted by SassyMom33 on June 4, 2002, at 3:40:44
In reply to Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 22:38:08
>
> "Obviously extasy is a music drug...thats its main function..."
Where did you get that information? X is commonly know as a party drug...not a music appreciation drug. Since what you will be hearing will be a drug induced reality anyway, thus hindering the process of really enjoying the beauty of music.> "Taking heroin (not injecting) has provided me with a physical rush that helped kick start a bodybuilding regime...(remember i'm talking about one time ..and not habitual use)"
A single dose can be FATAL! Why play 'Rush & Roulette' with your life?
>
> "the list goes on and on...and my life is richer for all these colours and structures I can give to how I percieve..."
Again, thanks to a drug induced reality!"...just how many recreational drugs can you buy legally ? none..why...perhaps its just too new an idea to have recreational drugs.."
> A new idea? No, people have fought for ages to get illegal narcotics legalized! The government could make a killing legalizing, and controlling drugs...plus save the tax payers millions of dollars by not having to lock up drug offense related criminals. BUT...human life is to precious...This is like putting a gun with one bullet in it...handing it to someone...and saying, "hey, pull the trigger! The rush is FREAKIN' AWESOME!" But, that one bullet may be the one that takes a life. Why risk it? Being sensible, and mature...why risk it? Aimee
Posted by christophrejmc on June 4, 2002, at 15:20:49
In reply to Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 22:38:08
Posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 15:30:34
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by SassyMom33 on June 4, 2002, at 3:40:44
> >
Posted by JonW on June 4, 2002, at 18:42:54
In reply to Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 22:38:08
> Perhaps only a small percentage of us have what it takes mentally to navigate ourselves thru these chemical options with common sense usage for the better...certainly ten years later...my life has gone from horrible to great..but I would say hand on heart that the illegal ones have helped play 50% part in that process.
Hi omega man,
I agree with you that drugs are just chemicals, be them legal or illegal. However, most people who have a history of cannibas, ecstasy, and heroin use also have a history of drug abuse. You may go on to develop a drug problem, or you may be an exception. Most illegal drugs are toxic, addictive, and are counterproductive when trying to treat mental illness. As long as your drug use -- be it legal or illegal -- doesn't hurt me or anyone else, then I have to say I'm glad you found something that works for you. But I absolutely oppose recommending your method to anyone who is mentally ill. There are no statistics I'm aware of that support what you are saying, and plenty of statistics that support the notion that street drugs ultimately ruin peoples lives. You may be the exception, but don't let that cloud your thinking. There may be "hopeless" and horrible situations where heroin use could be justified, but mainstream use would clearly have a negative impact on society.
Jon
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 4, 2002, at 19:03:45
In reply to i agree. illegal drugs = evil (nm) » SassyMom33, posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 15:30:34
> illegal drugs = evil
I think discussion about this is OK, but remember that it needs to be civil, thanks!
Bob
Posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 19:34:29
In reply to Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 22:38:08
your view is very one dimensional. you need to look at the big picture. not just 'your' situation with drugs. the reality is that illegal drugs ruin more lives than they help. and nothing can be said against that. you say they can be fine in intelligent responsible hands... well guess what, most people who use such drugs aren't too intelligent.>to deny ourselves pleasure by having no legal >recreational drugs seems perverse
you dont want to know what i think is perverse. these drugs ruin our society and the adults using them enfluences the children. so what do we get? little 13 year olds going crazy on extacy. it's disturbing.
Posted by Xevious on June 4, 2002, at 20:39:55
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » omega man, posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 19:34:29
In the interest of taking the middle ground, I'd just like to politely point out that "street drugs", in pure form and under the control of a physician, can and do in fact have valid therapeutic purposes.Although I agree with the essence of the arguments against street drugs, it saddens me to see so much polarization on this issue, as such behavior usually tends towards obscurement of the facts in favor of emotional fanaticism. And it is exactly this kind of fanaticism that has the potential to hinder legitimate scientific research into controversial, but therapeutic medications.
For a specific example, please see my opinion/assessment of MDMA, known as the street drug Ecstacy:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020602/msgs/108695.html
Now that I've painted the bullseye, I'll just put my rain slicker on... let the produce fly! ;)
-Steven
Posted by JonW on June 4, 2002, at 21:32:28
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by Xevious on June 4, 2002, at 20:39:55
> Although I agree with the essence of the arguments against street drugs, it saddens me to see so much polarization on this issue, as such behavior usually tends towards obscurement of the facts in favor of emotional fanaticism. And it is exactly this kind of fanaticism that has the potential to hinder legitimate scientific research into controversial, but therapeutic medications.
Hi Xevious,I hope you didn't take my post to be on the opposite pole as you. I believe in the bottom line and agree with having an open mind, however, do you really believe in supporting the bottom line at all costs? I agree that we should oppose attitudes that hinder research, however, I also think we should oppose attitudes that increase mainstream drug abuse.
Jon
p.s. duck... here comes a tomato! ;)
Posted by Xevious on June 4, 2002, at 21:58:11
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » Xevious, posted by JonW on June 4, 2002, at 21:32:28
Actually, I completely agree with what you said, Jon. I just wanted to advocate the middle ground of seeing street drugs not as "good" or "evil," but for what they really are - drugs that are unfortunately abused too frequently, to ill effects.And no, I don't believe in supporting the bottom line at all costs, although I will fight vigorously for the continued freedom of our great nation's pharmaceutical companies to gouge consumers with legal medications! ;) IMHO, the street drug problem is a sad paradox that seems to have no clear answers.
I advocate education, compassion and rehabilitation. Most importantly, I advocate me getting off of this emotionally charged subject before someone dumps a whole crate of tomatoes on me! ;)
-Steven
>
> I hope you didn't take my post to be on the opposite pole as you. I believe in the bottom line and agree with having an open mind, however, do you really believe in supporting the bottom line at all costs? I agree that we should oppose attitudes that hinder research, however, I also think we should oppose attitudes that increase mainstream drug abuse.
>
> Jon
>
> p.s. duck... here comes a tomato! ;)
Posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 12:13:31
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » omega man, posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 19:34:29
the reality is that illegal drugs ruin more lives than they help. and nothing can be said against that.
Except for the fact that tobacco and alcohol kill more people and cause more problems than all the illegal drugs combined. It is a mistake to use
the legal status of a drug to decide if it is good or bad.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:24:12
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by SassyMom33 on June 4, 2002, at 3:40:44
I can see from you reply we could have a whole discussion about the usefullness of "altered states"...altering your mental state gives you another view from which to see things...and having a drawer full of stuff that give me varieties of ways to see and feel things is very usefull indeed...
to answer your points raised my initial information about ectasy was from videotapes of a subject given ectasy in a lab/psychiatry environment...where his first words when MDMA hit his head were "I feel like music, I feel like I need to dance"...
for heroin...I never use a needle so i'm not taking the all or nothing risk you indicated...I don't go for that sort of risk..nearly all my life threatining situations were due to the untested combos people try on themselves who post to psycho-babble..but i'm not critizing that..its great all that stuff is availible...i just find it more frightening than the things I do to myself..
aside from heroin and cocaine which are useless to most peoples everyday lives I just don't see legal/non legal as being a good indicator of whats going to be helpfull and what is'nt....cigarettes are a very quick way to destroy yourslf yet we let that happen...
The law seem to be more of a warning as to whats happened within certain groups of people...I don't think I ever said to legalize the drugs I had mentioned..I was making a wider point that we don't market and license drugs for recreational use anymore...we have done and we know what those are....but like I say MDMA helped me unclog stuff from my brain and once the process is over it was very much like a classic psychiatry success except I did'nt need three months probing.....just one session....
LSD was liberating too...
some of the deeper mental processes you can release can be so very helpfull...in that i'm taking about religous experiences and I hope you realize how good that can be for everybody....
As for "drug induced realities" what do you call the state of constant multiple prescription most people here live through ?It does not matter if a reality is drug induced..if its usefull to that persons health or results in people getting ideas or states of being that hopefully turn out to be fruitfull or productive...
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:29:47
In reply to i agree. illegal drugs = evil (nm) » SassyMom33, posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 15:30:34
adamie...I don't know what sort of problems you have experienced...and I hope you need never have take anything thats illegal and feel the pressure that goes with it..but terms like "evil" don't really mean anything to me..Try to think what youre really trying to say in terms of specific ideas or all I know is that you feel very strongly against what I say..but not why.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:41:07
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » omega man, posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 19:34:29
I do look at big pictures..but what I said here was just me saying my story...
its true what you say about the influence on kids..and whoever supplies anything to them..would be greedy or destructive or stupid...
we already have in place different allowances for people of certain status or IQ...the laws are there I suppose as a resevoir of well founded warning or a bottom line for many who cant understand why they exist...and to be involved in breaking any is something I would really have to seriously consider why I'm doing that...after all anything that made its way to actually being written in law has obviously deep importance to us all..
I think many laws about drugs like Cannnibis LSD and MDMA only exist because its an unknown quantity with no practical use.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:42:35
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 12:13:31
illegal drugs tend to ruin lives when abused.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:52:34
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 12:13:31
thanks for replying..had to get that out of me..then I saw all these replies and wrote replies one by one..but I can see for the most I have been well understood....yes most illegal drugs are that way for reasons of destructive to living...or if not used properly they are..I mean if you could legislate that somebody could only drink alcohol at weekends then you would cut out the addictive personalities....and heroin..I should say is bad for 90% people who try it....similarly your average person does tend to abuse drugs...when I have some new prescription I have friends whose first reaction is "lets try 6 of them" ...but thats Scotland where segments of the population are mentality...self destructive....its also the reason I can get my hands on anything really easy here..and try it ..seeing with my eyes open the bad side...
Its just good sense..I think there are people pre-disposed to addiction...they there are people who abuse drugs who tend to just have the wrong attitude about living but they did'nt know because their whole community has..or ..they have little concept of themselves or their potential..or some other problem..
Its quite possible to use your head with illegal drugs and be Ok ..these substances did'nt get so popular as to be banned without having some real benefits...So I can look at something like MDMA and see if I could get help from it..why else would I do it ? So from that point when I got to psycho-babble the initial reaction was "wow , everybody in the USA is really into trying new drug combos that have not been tested as safe"
what I saw here looked scarier than anything I did..posts like "HELP EFFEXOR giving me ELECTRIC BRAIN SHOCKS " etc etc etc....plus having seen quite a high turnover of people who post here...makes me wonder how many still are.....here...I suppose this is a new thread but people here are combining as much as six drugs in their system..many prescribed from multiple doctors...and I know its due to being mentally sick and trying to find a way..but from what I know these drugs are not clinically tested like this ..I nearly died due to prescribed combos by different doctors..and many people here are the test experiment.....thats just as risky as me needing omega3 for winter blues ...(omega having not had proper trials yet)...
So my point is the law is not a good indicator..and so if it not then is the guidleines for using your prescrptions drug i.e. " take as much as you need but make absolutely sure you take one a day every day as long as you like..in fact be very carefull about stopping "....should I add be very carefull about stopping because we need your money !!
I don't particularly trust the legal rhetoric regarding drugs at the moment..
Posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 13:52:01
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » adamie, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:41:07
that aren't prescribed to you. It's illegal to give your prescription drugs to someone else, even if that person has a prescription for it. Are those things evil too? Or is self-medication okay, as long as it's with medicine sold at the pharmacy?
beardy : )>
Posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 14:18:13
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » oracle, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:42:35
> illegal drugs tend to ruin lives when abused.
But legal drugs (tobacco and alcohol) kill more people and cause more problems than all the illegal drugs combined. Anything abused will cause harm.
My point is that using a legal definition
to brand one drug "evil" and the other not
is not a valid argument. The legal drugs cause the most harm and death.
Posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:52:34
> Its quite possible to use your head with illegal drugs and be Ok ..these substances did'nt get so popular as to be banned without having some real benefits...So I can look at something like MDMA and see if I could get help from it..why else would I do it ? So from that point when I got to psycho-babble the initial reaction was "wow , everybody in the USA is really into trying new drug combos that have not been tested as safe"
> what I saw here looked scarier than anything I did..posts like "HELP EFFEXOR giving me ELECTRIC BRAIN SHOCKS " etc etc etc....plus having seen quite a high turnover of people who post here...makes me wonder how many still are.....here...Hi omega man,
It may be possible for you to use illegal drugs without a problem but that doesn't mean this is true for the population in general. In my opinion, pushing this idea of "safe" drug use could only affect the general population in a negative way. Take the following excerpt from a paper about MDMA, for example:
"Apart from the small number of people who have reported improvement or resolution of emotional or personality problems after the use of MDMA in psychotherapy, the long-term effects are virtually all adverse ones. They are all thought to arise from a neurotoxic action of the methylenedioxy derivatives of the amphetamines."
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11599334&dopt=Abstract)This does not support what you are saying. Yes, ecstasy feels good, but for the majority that's not the same as having real benefit and without great risk. Where is the data to support what you are saying? Similar claims were once made about LSD being useful for patients in therapy, but in at least one study no lasting benefit was found in a 10 year follow-up study of such patients. There is plenty of data that supports the safety and efficacy of effexor. I know the United States is full of politics and the drug companies are only in it for the money, but we still go by the data and get things right most of the time.
Maybe the turnover here in psycho-babble is a bad sign, but maybe it's a good sign, too. Show me the data that supports the idea that more people die from the "cocktails" prescribed than ecstasy or heroin use and I may change my mind about things. I don't mean to come across as saying these drugs are "evil" because I certainly don't think that. I mean, if any given chemical happens to improve the quality of life for someone with a horrible prognosis I think they should have legal access to it. But I can see how having such laws is a very tricky business.
Jon
p.s. I don't think tapering drugs when you discontinue them is a marketing ploy. Believe me, I hardly taper when I stop a drug and almost always suffer for it ;)
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:41:03
In reply to It's illegal to take prescription drugs..., posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 13:52:01
the true evil is in the ignorance of people and how they feel their behaviour is acceptable. illegal drug use causes enfluence towards others to try it as well. and this all spreads towards the children. so yes the illegal drug users are evil. unless you are in the 1% of the population who absolutely needs them for reasons such as finding no medication to help your mental illness then it is selfish and wrong. and the drug user may not care about damaging their body but others care about them. how would you feel if you had a son taking heroin? it's disgusting. and the general population is too. which can be clearly seen here.
> that aren't prescribed to you. It's illegal to give your prescription drugs to someone else, even if that person has a prescription for it. Are those things evil too? Or is self-medication okay, as long as it's with medicine sold at the pharmacy?
>
> beardy : )>
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:44:34
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 14:18:13
yes they do. but that doesn't remove the fact that illegal drugs do far more harm than good. you need to look at the big picture. not just yourself. you want the whole world messed up on drugs? i am glad that when i have a child i will raise 'her' right.> My point is that using a legal definition
> to brand one drug "evil" and the other not
> is not a valid argument. The legal drugs cause the most harm and death.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 17:48:53
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
what i'm trying to say is that prescribed drugs tend to have no fun effects ...which can enhance non-clinincal creative pursuits..although many do..it tends to be the illegal ones which have this quality..but to me the line gets blurred..I'll put omega 3 on top of my list as a mixer for many drugs...in fact I won't do some class A drugs without omega3 to offset the Neural burnout...along with good eating, exercise having a creative life and lots of fresh air and friends who look out for you...perhaps having all the dimensions that constitute a healthy life help support this creative non-abusive dabbling..
put it this way I have certain rules regarding certain drug...well for every drug really...
Heroin-expect a 2 week recovery before you get back to the energy state you had previously to taking it..and thats for one time use..also that rules applies to MDMA..
Prozac-keep the diet bland and put plenty of time aside for sleep.
Omega3-only take before sleeping or risk facial paralysis.
and so on for about 12 drugs I have each with its own "spell" or use ..
with such variety and the drugs being slave to real living purpose..I find thats the key...and when I see the posts here its scary how slaved people are ...so I wonder why don't drug companies come up with developing one time one hit remedies...which I believe MDMA has the potential to be along with an approved psycotherapy programme...
I don't believe drug companies try to fool us...I'm a non-conspiracist...but certain structures in drug development occur because they are a product of business interest...
A one time one hit cure would never cover the development costs so it make you wonder if anybody is even trying or able to get the grants to research this.
I suppose i'm talking about gene switching drugs..which read the profile from your DNA to see what transmitter cocktail you have and just switching in the healthier sequence..and thats it..
I would hope this is being researched because the money would still be there in providing the individual service, but we'll probably have to wait for some organization to get innovative and do this before the big companies show any sign of wanting to stop selling us "one size fits all, take em every day bullets"
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