![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 29. Go back in thread:
Posted by Elizabeth on March 27, 2002, at 0:03:50
In reply to Dont be fooled or misled-READ, posted by andyboy on March 25, 2002, at 16:23:37
> And a great majority of individuals who read these posts are suffering from depression and/or anxiety, and therefore are prone to suggestibility.
I don't think that stereotyping is appropriate.
-elizabeth
Posted by andyboy on March 27, 2002, at 0:34:41
In reply to Re: *eye roll*, posted by Elizabeth on March 27, 2002, at 0:03:50
you people are missing the point.
and I really dont appriciate the stuck-up replies.
my God, Im trying to make a pointdefending those who suffer and I have "know-it-alls" or so you like to think coming back with your snappy replies.
Posted by trouble on March 27, 2002, at 0:35:36
In reply to Dont be fooled or misled-READ, posted by andyboy on March 25, 2002, at 16:23:37
> You cannot take for absolute fact certain things that certain individuals have to say.
> If they feel strongly about a certain issue, they will find every "fact" or bit of information they can to uphold their claims.
>And a great majority of individuals who read these posts are suffering from depression and/or anxiety, and therefore are prone to suggestibility. Do not let what one person might have to say by any way influence you in determining what is best for YOU and YOU alone.--------------------------------------------------
Hello, Andyboy, are you in there somewhere? It's okay if this sort of thing happened to you, it doesn't make you any less of a man. If I'm wrong in my impression I hope you don't hold it against me, sometimes I come out of left field, completely apropos of nothing; if closer in my observation just thought I'd say
howdy, me too.trouble
Posted by andyboy on March 27, 2002, at 0:38:26
In reply to Andyboy, I'm taking a risk, posted by trouble on March 27, 2002, at 0:35:36
When did you post this? what did you mean by "less of a man?"
Posted by trouble on March 27, 2002, at 1:47:06
In reply to Re: Andyboy, I'm taking a risk » trouble, posted by andyboy on March 27, 2002, at 0:38:26
> When did you post this? what did you mean by "less of a man?"
Hey Andyboy,
About 15 minutes ago. What I'm saying is that IMO believing in and following advice on something one later realizes was a hasty decision, doesn't make him less of a man, and all that being a man implies, which sadly, often amounts to absolute perfection, no questions asked.
There are cultural pressures on men that really bug me, and that's why your post caught my eye, it reminds me of something I've known my own male intimates to do, when something else was going on, like him feeling weak and unmanly for having trusted too fast, accepting a solution he later decided was based on insufficient data, desperation, laziness, whatever, and, wanting to escape the feeling of vulnerability the experience left behind, he "righted" everything by huffing and puffing some proscriptive warning out of nowhere then presented it to ME in portentious and patronizing tones and I'm like there there baby whatever's gotten into you isn't about me then handed him the phone book to watch him tear in half, tho I'm really gonna MISS that phonebook, dagnabbit, by now the 2 of us might die laughing, depending on whether he sees the joke in these ironman standards men are held to, you can get lost in there and I don't like losing what's rightfully mine to some dehumanizing standard of masculinity that's done nothing for him but fuck with his heart.
But like I say, it can be risky.trouble
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2002, at 6:45:19
In reply to Dont be fooled or misled-READ, posted by andyboy on March 25, 2002, at 16:23:37
I for one see the kindness and good intentions behind your post. And a fair number of people have posted something similar when they took offense to what was being touted. Unfortunately, many people appear to have problems with good intentions and take offense where none is meant while offering plenty of offense in return. I don't understand it, but there it is.
Just wanted to tell you thanks.
Posted by beardedlady on March 27, 2002, at 7:16:30
In reply to Re: Dont be fooled or misled-READ » andyboy, posted by Zo on March 25, 2002, at 16:53:43
> One of the rules of civility here is not to post anything that others could take as a put down.Including this!
No one can measure another person's reaction to what we're going to say. As you know, some things we say are often misinterpreted by others who have different motives, who are looking for different things. Some folks are always looking for the negative. You can compliment or support someone in six paragraphs, but if one happens to differ from someone's point of view, the rest of the message is lost.
I sent a note to my neighborhood e-list in response to one that came to the list about a proposed neighborhood construction plan. I sent it out, and I got six responses. Five said, Bravo! My sentiments exactly! Well said! I agree! The sixth said, "I don't think I deserved that tone." Why? Because in this huge reply, I made one statement of reference to something she said in her e-mail. The tone was quite chipper and positive.
This is just to say that I didn't think andy's comment was a put down. I even think he's right--with some people, some of the time. People like, say, me! I read a pamplet about dizziness at my neurologist's office. I thought: How horrible! Guess who's been dizzy for seven months. (Maybe it's real, maybe it's psychosomatic!)
Beardy : )>
Posted by beardedlady on March 27, 2002, at 7:17:30
In reply to But that could be just about anything! » Zo, posted by beardedlady on March 27, 2002, at 7:16:30
Posted by andyboy on March 27, 2002, at 12:06:39
In reply to Re: Dont be fooled or misled-READ » andyboy, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2002, at 6:45:19
Posted by andyboy on March 27, 2002, at 12:08:55
In reply to But that could be just about anything! » Zo, posted by beardedlady on March 27, 2002, at 7:16:30
Posted by Zo on March 28, 2002, at 7:04:52
In reply to Re: *eye roll* » Elizabeth, posted by andyboy on March 27, 2002, at 0:34:41
> you people are missing the point.
> and I really dont appriciate the stuck-up replies.
> my God, Im trying to make a pointdefending those who suffer and I have "know-it-alls" or so you like to think coming back with your snappy replies.Why you haven't gotten a Please Be Civil on this little intemperate piece of work is beyond me. I, personally, have not read before, on this board, anything quite so. . .
Let's just call it, Andy had a bad day. INTENTIONAL putdowns: stuck ups, know-it-alls--or so we like to think.
Hmm. We. You know what, Andyboy, I don't believe you really think we are stuck-up, snappy know-it alls at all. I believe--and I think this is what trouble was trying to tell you--you're one of those guys who think it's okay to lash out at and put down women when HE is feeling threatened or uncomfortable.
Won't fly, here. I like you, AB. So I'm letting you know, that turkey is not gonna fly.
Fondly,
Zo
Posted by Zo on March 28, 2002, at 7:31:01
In reply to But that could be just about anything! » Zo, posted by beardedlady on March 27, 2002, at 7:16:30
Dear Beardy,
You know, this all started from a very small noticing of mine. I took exception to a part of Andy's post , and told him so. That's all. Elizabeth noted it as well. I don't know that Andy intended it to be condescending; I just made mention that it came across that way. That's *all.*
People need to distinguish between a what is a personal attack and what isn't. Mostly, I've noticed on this board, it isn't.
Andy's next post, however, was. I don't see any retraction. Yet. Something's out of whack, here. Created in part by the very population who think they're there to help. Truth be told, more likely drawn to even the hint of conflict, moths to a candleflame.
So now you've got well-meaning people taking sides. Poor ____ fill in the blank, in this case Andy, WE think yo're wonderful even if SHE does not. Huh?
I think what we got here are polarity junkies.
And I'm saying, It doesn't Serve.
You'd agree with that, wouldn't you, Beardy? People take sides, thinking that is compassion. . .when sides are the last thing we need. Really. Sides are the very last thing.
Fondly,
Zo
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2002, at 8:04:29
In reply to Re: *eye roll* » andyboy, posted by Zo on March 28, 2002, at 7:04:52
Hi Andy. Before you respond to Zo's post, I thought you might want to read her post to me. It was an example, in Zo's opinion, of the sort of warmth and caring that this board ought to be about. I don't know how long you've been posting here because I don't read this board that often, but I can see where the response you've gotten to your original post might put you off. It would have sent me running away looking for a more pleasant place if I hadn't been around for a while and already met with a lot of kindness. Please continue to post. There are many of us who did understand your good intentions.
Dinah
[Posted by Zo on March 26, 2002, at 17:27:41]
> "You too beardy? I feel so sad for both of you. Where on earth do you meet people?"
>
> Dinah, sweetie, I felt and still feel this was rather a stinging post; it reads a bit condescending or judgemental.
>
> I know if someone said those two things to me, unless they were already a good friend, I'd feel pushed away by them. My guess is that you don't mean to, not at all. . .but often the tone of your posts, when I first "met" you, seemed to telegraph, Don't get close to me!
>
> Just some thoughts/feedback. Lots of times our illnesses make us "prickly" -- me too.
>
> Zo> > you people are missing the point.
> > and I really dont appriciate the stuck-up replies.
> > my God, Im trying to make a pointdefending those who suffer and I have "know-it-alls" or so you like to think coming back with your snappy replies.
>
> Why you haven't gotten a Please Be Civil on this little intemperate piece of work is beyond me. I, personally, have not read before, on this board, anything quite so. . .
>
> Let's just call it, Andy had a bad day. INTENTIONAL putdowns: stuck ups, know-it-alls--or so we like to think.
>
> Hmm. We. You know what, Andyboy, I don't believe you really think we are stuck-up, snappy know-it alls at all. I believe--and I think this is what trouble was trying to tell you--you're one of those guys who think it's okay to lash out at and put down women when HE is feeling threatened or uncomfortable.
>
> Won't fly, here. I like you, AB. So I'm letting you know, that turkey is not gonna fly.
>
> Fondly,
> Zo
Posted by beardedlady on March 28, 2002, at 8:29:22
In reply to Re: But that could be just about anything!, posted by Zo on March 28, 2002, at 7:31:01
Dear Zo:
It's not taking sides; it's offering another perspective. We are all different, and we interpret things differently. Whether we happen to agree with someone does not mean it's siding against someone else. My comment to you was that we can't always say things that will please all people, nor can we work out in advance how our comments to a, b, c, and f are going to affect x, y, z, b, q, p. That was it! No sides!
As far as polarity junkies are concerned, what's the world made of? Black and white, democrat and republican, jew and christian and buddhist and muslim, young and old. Some might see it as a positive thing called solidarity. Because polarity is gonna happen. It's mammal nature.
I don't know how, when you read my post, it boiled down to taking sides. It seems that we are all guilty of taking a single statment and responding to it, rather than to the point of the post. I was sharing an experience with you, just one to say that I don't know how that could be a "rule" here--to not post anything someone could take as a put down. Someone will always take something as a put down. Even my post, which wasn't a put down of you at all!
Beardy : )>
Posted by Zo on March 28, 2002, at 8:54:51
In reply to Re: But that could be just about anything! » Zo, posted by beardedlady on March 28, 2002, at 8:29:22
Oh dear. Is it the full moon. I didn't mean YOU were taking sides, Beardy! I was just kind of thinking aloud to you. .. And I *didn't* think you put me down!Besides, it was HIS dumb rule I was quoting. .. (rather tongue in cheek, which is kinda hard to see over the internet.) I've been trying to pay attention to Bob's Rules of Civility, thinking about what they mean.
And as you say, this one is Not Possible.
. .. I KNOW what he is going to swoop in here and say: "But you can try!"
Are we straight? Hope so,
Zo
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 28, 2002, at 9:38:41
In reply to Re: *eye roll* » Elizabeth, posted by andyboy on March 27, 2002, at 0:34:41
> I really dont appriciate the stuck-up replies.
> I have "know-it-alls" ... coming back with your snappy replies.Please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory or put them down:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, or complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by beardedlady on March 28, 2002, at 10:59:57
In reply to Bad Juju thread » beardedlady, posted by Zo on March 28, 2002, at 8:54:51
Posted by andyboy on March 28, 2002, at 11:59:41
In reply to Re: please be civil » andyboy, posted by Dr. Bob on March 28, 2002, at 9:38:41
When I made my original post, I had no idea it was going to blow up the way it did, and it was the omission of a mere 2 words that caused it. When I stated that "individuals suffering from depression and/or anxiety are prone to suggestibility," I should have just said "MAY BE prone..." Trust me- I'm not on this board to just lash out. I here pretty much for the same reason most of us are, to bounce information off each other and hopefully learn and become enlightened and therefore less afraid perhaps because knowledge IS power. I did not mean to stereotype and I am very appriciative to those who saw through that and recognized my point, and I'm sorry for those who didnt. This was never about "lashing out at females" as I just now learned that Zo is indeed a woman as I associated the name "Zo" with NBA star AlonZO Mourning. In my later replies, I didnt mean to have a harsh tone-but Elizabeth's "eye roll" sent me reeling. And finally-a comment for Dr. Bob- you have singled me out to "please be civil". If you'll notice- I did not at any point BEGIN the conflict, although yes, I may have added to it.
Thank you.
Andy
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2002, at 13:55:59
In reply to How did any of this happen???????, posted by andyboy on March 28, 2002, at 11:59:41
> When I made my original post, I had no idea it was going to blow up the way it did, and it was the omission of a mere 2 words that caused it.
A couple words can make a big difference here online. :-)
> This was never about "lashing out at females"
> a comment for Dr. Bob- you have singled me out to "please be civil". If you'll notice- I did not at any point BEGIN the conflict, although yes, I may have added to it.
I do think the post of yours that I singled out was the first to cross the line, but you shouldn't have been accused of being "one of those guys who think it's okay to lash out at and put down women when HE is feeling threatened or uncomfortable", I should've said something about that, too. Sorry,
Bob
Posted by andyboy on March 30, 2002, at 15:21:45
In reply to Re: How this happened, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2002, at 13:55:59
Posted by trouble on March 30, 2002, at 17:10:55
In reply to understood (nm) » Dr. Bob, posted by andyboy on March 30, 2002, at 15:21:45
Hey there friend, (and I hope we are friends),
I just want to say I appreciate your days of patience during all this clucking in the henhouse.
I know what it's like to feel supported on the board and I know what it's like to feel that love suddenly threatened; it takes a lot out of a person, so just want to say thanks for holding steady in the midst of such a pregnant contretemps.This is going to be marked as one of my favorite threads, though we lost Zo, and that's a paddlin' (I have a sense that she'll come back), everyone involved worked hard.
trouble
Posted by Elizabeth on April 4, 2002, at 5:30:36
In reply to How did any of this happen???????, posted by andyboy on March 28, 2002, at 11:59:41
That's funny; I was wondering something similar. I posted a one-line response: I don't think it's appropriate to stereotype people. This is hardly a controversial position for me to take; I think most people would agree that stereotyping isn't appropriate. Yet you became very angry or upset.
People with mood and anxiety disorders are not especially "suggestible" or prone to believe whatever they are told. For that matter, there are plenty of "suggestible" people out there who aren't considered mentally ill. Nowhere in the definition of any mood or anxiety disorder is there anything that relates to suggestibility.
You were making a valid point, overall, in your post. But it was a point that hardly needs to be made here: as you will discover if you continue reading this board (and I hope you will; it's a valuable source of information and support), people here are liable to demand evidence for just about any claim made, and if someone posts something questionable, they can expect one or more counterarguments. You see, there's nothing about mood or anxiety disorders that causes us to be "suggestible" or prone to believe whatever we read. This thread provides a fine example of members of this group -- persons with mood and anxiety disorders, for the most part -- objecting to an unsupported (and false) statement that was posted (your claim about the supposed "suggestibility" of the mentally ill).
And no, adding "may be" wouldn't have made your remark any less of a stereotype: the implication would remain that people with mental illnesses are *more* likely to be "suggestible" than others are. This is both untrue and insulting. Please try to be more considerate in the future.
-elizabeth
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 4, 2002, at 22:01:42
In reply to Re: How did any of this happen??????? » andyboy, posted by Elizabeth on April 4, 2002, at 5:30:36
> That's funny; I was wondering something similar...
I'd like discussion about posting, rather than about medication, to be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020308/msgs/3825.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Zo on April 4, 2002, at 22:55:57
In reply to How did any of this happen???????, posted by andyboy on March 28, 2002, at 11:59:41
Would you please read my post in the Please be civil thread? Link below. It contains an apology to you, and an explanation--for my second, snotty post.
My first post to you was nothing more than a reminder that suggestible *might* be incivil (uncivil?) You took the ball and ran--but you know what? You had a *lot* of help from those who ran to defend you--when you didn't DO anything. This must have been way confusing!
What you saw, in part, were other tensions--from Social, I think--tensions you'd have no way of knowing about. Sorry they got acted out on your thread!
Let's not worry the thing to death--clearly "suggestible" is one of those words that can go either way. Thanks for the refs. -- Zo
Posted by andyboy on April 5, 2002, at 16:11:39
In reply to Re: How it happened » andyboy, posted by Zo on April 4, 2002, at 22:55:57
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.