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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 38. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 23, 2002, at 23:00:07
A few months ago I read on Pubmed about a study that said that l-phenylalnine supplementation inhibits either tyrosine hydroxylase (the thing that turns l-tyrosine into l-dopa) or the thing that turns l-dopa into dopamine (aromatic hydroxylase or something like that. Not sure which one it inhibits? Does anyone know about l-phenylalanine inhibiting dopamine production?
L-phenylalanine seemed like a good thing to take since unlike most amino acids it actually crosses the blood brain barrier & seemed to have some slight amphetamine like effect after 2 weeks of 1500 mg/morning on an empty stomach (Twinlab w/o vitamin B6 was the only brand that worked for me, country life w/ B6 had no effect). But I stopped taking it after reading the dopamine inhibition article & now I can't find the article I read (in Pubmed).
Also, why do many l-phenylalanine supplements contain vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) when vitamin B6 completely nulls the dopamine enhancing effects of levodopa?
I used to take l-tyrosine but stopped since it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier & can only be transported to the brain by a carrier that is already saturated by a normal diet. I also noticed no effects & it seemed a waste of time/money.
But I wonder if tyrosine or phenylalanine supplementation would be a good idea if you were taking Dexedrine or Adderall everyday & thus constantly depleting your dopamine stores or perhaps like many supplements found at the health food store it is a waste of money?
Posted by Bekka H. on March 23, 2002, at 23:07:03
In reply to Does l-phenylalnine inhibit natural dopamine prod?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 23, 2002, at 23:00:07
Hi 3 Beers,
What's your major at school?
Bekka
Posted by Ron Hill on March 23, 2002, at 23:11:09
In reply to Does l-phenylalnine inhibit natural dopamine prod?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 23, 2002, at 23:00:07
3BE,
Why not use SAM-e to accomplish the desired DA task?
-- Ron
------------------------------------------------> A few months ago I read on Pubmed about a study that said that l-phenylalnine supplementation inhibits either tyrosine hydroxylase (the thing that turns l-tyrosine into l-dopa) or the thing that turns l-dopa into dopamine (aromatic hydroxylase or something like that. Not sure which one it inhibits? Does anyone know about l-phenylalanine inhibiting dopamine production?
>
> L-phenylalanine seemed like a good thing to take since unlike most amino acids it actually crosses the blood brain barrier & seemed to have some slight amphetamine like effect after 2 weeks of 1500 mg/morning on an empty stomach (Twinlab w/o vitamin B6 was the only brand that worked for me, country life w/ B6 had no effect). But I stopped taking it after reading the dopamine inhibition article & now I can't find the article I read (in Pubmed).
>
> Also, why do many l-phenylalanine supplements contain vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) when vitamin B6 completely nulls the dopamine enhancing effects of levodopa?
>
> I used to take l-tyrosine but stopped since it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier & can only be transported to the brain by a carrier that is already saturated by a normal diet. I also noticed no effects & it seemed a waste of time/money.
>
> But I wonder if tyrosine or phenylalanine supplementation would be a good idea if you were taking Dexedrine or Adderall everyday & thus constantly depleting your dopamine stores or perhaps like many supplements found at the health food store it is a waste of money?
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 23, 2002, at 23:45:41
In reply to Re: Does l-phenylalnine inhibit natural dopamine prod? » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Ron Hill on March 23, 2002, at 23:11:09
I have only gotten mania from one med Zoloft 100 mg- which is the only anti-depressant that has ever worked for me but caused horrible insomnia, but the happiness, optimism, & high energy from the zoloft eventually ended up turning into pretty self-destructive behavior (drinking, cocaine etc) & culminated in a DUI & also getting knocked unconscious (& sent to the hospital) by a big redneck in a fight near the sixth street entertainment/bar district in Austin, TX.
I never have mania when not on medication, but i've heard SAM-E is prone to causing mania so bipolar people shouldn't take it. (But I am taking Lamictal 100 mg as a mood stablizer, which seems like a placebo pill but might offset any mania that SAM-E could cause). But Sam-e seems hideously expensive (even at Costco/Sam's Club)- especially since I have health insurance so most of my prescription meds only cost $15-35 a month for brand names. I'm not sure what dose you have to take for a good AD effect, i've heard anywhere from 200 to 1,600 mg. 1,600 mg would be very (hideously) expensive since even a 30 day supply of 200 mg/day probably costs more than generic prozac.
Also, it seems as though SAM-E works in people whose methyl donor system (don't know much about what SAM-E does obviously) has aged or isn't functioning properly. If you are in your early twenties doesn't that mean SAM-E is less likely to work than if you are middle aged & your methyl donor thing isn't as efficient?
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 23, 2002, at 23:57:28
In reply to Does l-phenylalnine inhibit natural dopamine-3beer, posted by Bekka H. on March 23, 2002, at 23:07:03
Hello Bekka,
I'm a Geography/Political Science double major at the University of Texas at Austin. I had to get a medical withdrawl last semester since Remeron & then Effexor XR side effects made it impossible to go to class, let alone study.I have been readmitted for Fall of this year & have signed a lease for a place to live so I really need to get better by August 27 so I can graduate the spring of 2003.
So far psychiatry has been a big disapointment (Alcohol is a better anxiolytic/social phobia med than Klonopin, SSRIs or anything else out there)- I got better grades when I was a partied like a rock star three nights a week, but as soon as I started taking an anti-depressant all my grades dropped like a rock- I would have been kicked out of UT Austin permanently had I not pursued & received a "mental health medical withdrawl" last semester. Ironically, the main reason I wanted to take an antidepressant (Zoloft) was so I could talk to girls at parties without having to be drunk- Seeking help through psychiatry turned out to be a major life changing roadblock/mistake. I would be graduating in May had I never set foot in a psychiatrists' office. (Looking back, I should have waited till after college to try anti-depressants).
Posted by David Smith on March 24, 2002, at 0:39:27
In reply to Re: major regret over seeking psychiatric help, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 23, 2002, at 23:57:28
Sounds as if you LIKE taking medications. Okay.
May I suggest www.breggin.com ?
Best wishes.
Posted by Ron Hill on March 24, 2002, at 1:15:29
In reply to Zoloft gave me mania, so SAM-E could also?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 23, 2002, at 23:45:41
3BE,
When my pdoc suggested a SAM-e trial, I was skeptical about the likelihood of an OTC being an answer for me. My skepticism is gone and I have my life back! Same testimony from others on this board.
I started to become hypomanic when I tried to increase from 200 to 400 mg/day. Went back to 200 mg/day and hypomania went away. SAM-e may induce hypomania in you, but maybe you need to increase the amount of moodstabilizer. Since you're bipolar, why are you on such a low dose of mood stabilizer?
Please read these articles:
http://www.immunesupport.com/news/SAMe2txt.htm
http://www.iherb.com/same2.html
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/sameart.html
http://www.boehringer-ingelheim.es/workshop-methionina/anglesa/cap26.htm
-- Ron
----------------------------> I have only gotten mania from one med Zoloft 100 mg- which is the only anti-depressant that has ever worked for me but caused horrible insomnia, but the happiness, optimism, & high energy from the zoloft eventually ended up turning into pretty self-destructive behavior (drinking, cocaine etc) & culminated in a DUI & also getting knocked unconscious (& sent to the hospital) by a big redneck in a fight near the sixth street entertainment/bar district in Austin, TX.
>
> I never have mania when not on medication, but i've heard SAM-E is prone to causing mania so bipolar people shouldn't take it. (But I am taking Lamictal 100 mg as a mood stablizer, which seems like a placebo pill but might offset any mania that SAM-E could cause). But Sam-e seems hideously expensive (even at Costco/Sam's Club)- especially since I have health insurance so most of my prescription meds only cost $15-35 a month for brand names. I'm not sure what dose you have to take for a good AD effect, i've heard anywhere from 200 to 1,600 mg. 1,600 mg would be very (hideously) expensive since even a 30 day supply of 200 mg/day probably costs more than generic prozac.
>
> Also, it seems as though SAM-E works in people whose methyl donor system (don't know much about what SAM-E does obviously) has aged or isn't functioning properly. If you are in your early twenties doesn't that mean SAM-E is less likely to work than if you are middle aged & your methyl donor thing isn't as efficient?
Posted by Zo on March 24, 2002, at 4:17:25
In reply to Re: major regret over seeking psychiatric help, posted by David Smith on March 24, 2002, at 0:39:27
As one who owes her life to meds--and who also thinks Peter Breggin doesn't know his a** from first base--let me say, I find your posts painful, sneaky, and a big waste of my time.
This is a board where people *discuss* their use of medications. It's not appropriate to come here and play out a position that is wholly irrelevant our purpose here, to the stated purpose.
Zo
Posted by colin wallace on March 24, 2002, at 5:16:09
In reply to Breggin Shmeggin » David Smith, posted by Zo on March 24, 2002, at 4:17:25
Did you know that Breggin is a eunuch who dabbles in unsavoury nocturnal occult practices, and has a morphine habit to boot.Ask Eli Lilly...!?
Posted by fachad on March 24, 2002, at 11:37:29
In reply to Re: Breggin ShmegginZo, posted by colin wallace on March 24, 2002, at 5:16:09
Breggin is the Anti-Bob. That's the pdoc equivalent of the Anti-Christ.
This guy is really a nut job. I've read three or four of his books and his flamboyant, sensationalistic overstatements of the risks of psych drugs really distract from his position, which may have some merit.
He should win some sort of intellectual Olympic award for "Jumping to Conclusions". He reasons from the TD caused by APs to the conclusion that all psych meds cause permanent horrible brain damage.
Further, he does not believe that psych drugs are indicated or effective in ANY cases. He even denies the effectiveness of lithium in bipolar disorder!
He denies that ADs are effective, and claims that clever drug company goons who are manipulating the controlled studies fake the statistics.
Instead of providing an advisory as to the possible risks and downside of psych meds (a reasonable and badly needed statement) he just pontificates his own extremist opinions.
Anyone with critical thinking skills is just turned off, while anyone lacking critical thinking skills is needlessly frightened into quitting their meds, which may have really been helping them.
I give Breggan two thumbs down.
-fachad
Posted by colin wallace on March 24, 2002, at 12:26:15
In reply to Breggin is the Anti-Bob (talking back to Breggan) » colin wallace, posted by fachad on March 24, 2002, at 11:37:29
Precisely.I 've read some of his sweeping hitrionics, and anyone who would seriously advocate a non-med regimen in a case of major depression can hardly complain of being taken less than seriously.Who would argue that untreated depression and its attendant destructive neurological effects are organic in nature (or result in organic changes)that require chemical intervention ?(without denigrating complimentary treatments here;psychotherapy etc., which are highly beneficial).So long term ssri treatment causes unknown brain changes which cannot be foretold?
Maybe so, but at least I'll be around to discuss those changes (positive or otherwise), which I wouldn't have been had it not been for antidepressant intervention.
I'll stick with my (modest) Prozac for now, and issue a thumbs down to the 'Anti-Bob' too....
Posted by Bekka H. on March 24, 2002, at 14:06:27
In reply to Re: major regret over seeking psychiatric help, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 23, 2002, at 23:57:28
Hi Mr. 3 Beers,
A double major! Wow, that's admirable and ambitious. Do you know what you want to do yet? Do you think you'll go into politics? Do you want to go to graduate school or do you think you'll get a job first?
I had similar problems with Effexor and trying to study. It impaired my cognition and concentration, but it damaged my drive and motivation even more. I don't do well on ssri's, in general, and I have a terrible time with med combos. I think my liver enzymes are completely out of whack.
I realize that the way a person comes across over the Internet is not necessarily the way they are in person, but based on your postings, I don't think you need an ssri in order to talk to women. You have a lot of energy and a unique style. If talking to a particular female requires that you take medicine in order to appeal to her, then she is probably not worth talking to.
I hope you are able to get things in order over the next few months so you can get back to school and do the things you want to do.
Bekka
Posted by OldSchool on March 24, 2002, at 16:32:25
In reply to Re: major regret over seeking psychiatric help, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 23, 2002, at 23:57:28
> Hello Bekka,
> I'm a Geography/Political Science double major at the University of Texas at Austin. I had to get a medical withdrawl last semester since Remeron & then Effexor XR side effects made it impossible to go to class, let alone study.
>
> I have been readmitted for Fall of this year & have signed a lease for a place to live so I really need to get better by August 27 so I can graduate the spring of 2003.
>
> So far psychiatry has been a big disapointment (Alcohol is a better anxiolytic/social phobia med than Klonopin, SSRIs or anything else out there)- I got better grades when I was a partied like a rock star three nights a week, but as soon as I started taking an anti-depressant all my grades dropped like a rock- I would have been kicked out of UT Austin permanently had I not pursued & received a "mental health medical withdrawl" last semester. Ironically, the main reason I wanted to take an antidepressant (Zoloft) was so I could talk to girls at parties without having to be drunk- Seeking help through psychiatry turned out to be a major life changing roadblock/mistake. I would be graduating in May had I never set foot in a psychiatrists' office. (Looking back, I should have waited till after college to try anti-depressants).3 Beer Effect, what you describe is indeed a pathetic and poor reason to see a psychiatrist. If you had no major mental illness to start, you have no reason seeing one. If you only wanted some klonopin or an SSRI to try for social anxiety disorder, you could have easily gotten that from a family doctor instead of a psychiatrist.
It sounds as if your main problem is more personality problems (shyness) and social inhibition. Which are personality traits rather than mental illnesses. I would suggest just pulling off the psychiatry stuff totally, cut off all ties and save yourself. Find other ways to build up your self esteem and confidence.
Being that you now have been to a psychiatrist and taken psych meds, the military is out of the question. Unfortunately the military is very narrowminded towards accepting individuals who have taken SSRIs in the past. However, the military is an excellent place to gain self esteem and confidence. To develop your leadership abilities. A stint in the Marines, even the Marine reserves, would do wonders for your self confidence. Or a few years of Army ROTC could help you come out of your shyness and make you more self confident, more decisive, etc. However, once you have "psychiatrist" in your medical record, you can forget about the military. Its a shame though cause its probably exactly what you needed.
Another avenue to building up your self confidence is heavy weight lifting. Working out hard, particularly free weight type activities, can do wonders for the confidence of a man with low self esteem. Basic heavy free weight movements builds muscle and strength and increases testosterone and human growth hormone. Again, the basics is best...squats, standing overhead presses, cleans. Eat and sleep alot. Ditch the little isolation bodybuilder movements and machines its worthless.
I hope if you have no significant mental illness like the rest of us you will cease your relationship with this psychiatrist. And find other, non pharmacological ways to increase confidence, meet girls, etc.
Psychiatrists are for people with serious and oftentimes severe psychiatric illnesses. It doesnt sound as if you have any of this.Old School
Posted by David Smith on March 24, 2002, at 17:26:45
In reply to Breggin Shmeggin » David Smith, posted by Zo on March 24, 2002, at 4:17:25
Thank you for your response to my post. Discussion is ALL that we are doing here. I am not advocating any particular position except that of responsibility for our own lives.
I too have felt helped by pdrugs. I do feel they can be beneficial. However I feel they are mostly over prescribed. There is a tendency here to treat medication casually. My concern is that irreversible damage may be done to the brain.
After reading this board for two years, I feel I have something important to say. I have had lifelong bipolar depression since I was eight. Most likely I will never feel normal. I certainly don't want to get worse.
Zo if you promise to post civil responses then I promise to be less cryptic. Deal?
Posted by David Smith on March 24, 2002, at 18:12:42
In reply to Re: Breggin Shmeggin, posted by David Smith on March 24, 2002, at 17:26:45
I hope that didn't sound snobbish.
I do have a criticism of Dr. Breggin.
He does not present very many alternatives to traditional therapy.
But he IS right about abrupt withdrawal of drugs.
NEVER stop taking your meds without medical assistance. I know from personal experience.
Posted by OldSchool on March 24, 2002, at 22:15:11
In reply to Breggin Shmeggin » David Smith, posted by Zo on March 24, 2002, at 4:17:25
> As one who owes her life to meds--and who also thinks Peter Breggin doesn't know his a** from first base--let me say, I find your posts painful, sneaky, and a big waste of my time.
>
> This is a board where people *discuss* their use of medications. It's not appropriate to come here and play out a position that is wholly irrelevant our purpose here, to the stated purpose.
>
> ZoPeter Breggin does a disservice to all seriously mentally ill people by his refusal to acknowledge mental illness is biologically based. He has no hospital privileges. He refuses to acknowledge the severity and disability of many untreated severe mental illnesses. From what Ive read in his books, he still believes in old style, Freudian psychotherapy and believes that severe depression can be overcome by therapy.
I am in disbelief as to why Breggin is still allowed to have a Medical Doctor certification in psychiatry. He seems much more cut out to be a psychologist than a psychiatrist. I believe Breggin would have been a much happier man had he become a psychologist than a MD.
After all Ive been thru with mental illness, this man disgusts me. His trivializing my problems is insulting. I suppose Breggin believes severe melancholic depression can be treated with a cup of chicken soup and some hand holding huh? Lets sit around with Peter Breggin and sing Kumb by ah and sing campfire songs and roast marshmellows. I bet my depression would go away then. Just sit around and talk about those underlying "issues" and suddenly you will be able to sleep normally again huh?
Breggin is a joke and his medical license should be pulled.
Old School
Posted by Mark H. on March 24, 2002, at 22:47:27
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin sucks dirty green donkey dicks, posted by OldSchool on March 24, 2002, at 22:15:11
MARK H. FOR DR. BOB HERE:
Old School,
The title of your post was over the line. Please be civil.
Many thanks,
Mark H.
Posted by Zo on March 25, 2002, at 6:40:46
In reply to Re: Breggin Shmeggin, posted by David Smith on March 24, 2002, at 17:26:45
> I am not advocating any particular position except that of responsibility for our own lives.
Honey, it's been perfectly obvious you've been advocating. . but hey, you want to set that aside and not keep linking out, but instead stay here, with us, with this discussion, great.
> I too have felt helped by pdrugs. I do feel they can be >beneficial. However I feel they are mostly over >prescribed.
BADLY prescribed. With great lazy ignorance. This does not mean that "drugs are bad."
>My concern is that irreversible damage may be done to >the brain.
You worried abour your brain or ours? The former concern is fine, bring it on. The latter. . .is not your problem.
> Zo if you promise to post civil responses then I promise to be less cryptic. Deal?
No, the deal revolves around Breggin---this is tough: not mentioning him again, not trying to "fix" anyone on the board according to your own beliefs--but answering the posts of others in line with where they are coming from, and asking your own questions and sharing your own experiences straight on, so we can get it.
Zo
Posted by Bekka H. on March 25, 2002, at 17:40:19
In reply to Re: Breggin Shmeggin » David Smith, posted by Zo on March 25, 2002, at 6:40:46
> Honey, it's been perfectly obvious you've been advocating. . but hey, you want to set that aside and not keep linking out, but instead stay here, with us, with this discussion, great.
> BADLY prescribed. With great lazy ignorance. This does not mean that "drugs are bad."
> You worried abour your brain or ours? The former concern is fine, bring it on. The latter. . .is not your problem.
> No, the deal revolves around Breggin---this is tough: not mentioning him again, not trying to "fix" anyone on the board according to your own beliefs--but answering the posts of others in line with where they are coming from, and asking your own questions and sharing your own experiences straight on, so we can get it.
>
> Zo
************************************************Bravo to Zo!!!!!!!! Zo, you said that so well. If that guy doesn't stop hawking his wares here, I'm going to take this up with Dr. Bob. It's clear that he and several others don't belong here. But Zo, you said it so much better than I could.
Bekka
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2002, at 21:43:13
In reply to Re: Breggin Shmeggin » David Smith, posted by Zo on March 25, 2002, at 6:40:46
> the deal revolves around Breggin---this is tough: not mentioning him again, not trying to "fix" anyone on the board according to your own beliefs--but answering the posts of others in line with where they are coming from, and asking your own questions and sharing your own experiences straight on, so we can get it.
Sorry, but I'd like discussion here to be as free as possible. Breggin should be able to be mentioned, and his views should be able to be debated. As long as it's civil, of course.
Bob
Posted by christophrejmc on March 26, 2002, at 1:05:22
In reply to Re: Breggin Shmeggin, posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2002, at 21:43:13
Have you seen http://breggin.4mg.com ? It seems that talk of Breggin is code for buying medication without a prescription! Oh dear!
Posted by Zo on March 26, 2002, at 2:25:21
In reply to Re: Breggin Shmeggin, posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2002, at 21:43:13
> Sorry, but I'd like discussion here to be as free as possible. Breggin should be able to be mentioned, and his views should be able to be debated. As long as it's civil, of course.
>
> BobOf course you would, and of course we can't really forbid anybody, but given the option of another long, dreary flame war which contributes *nothing*. . I think some discretion is advised. I'm not saying that's the case here; I do think it's something to think about. Given the purpose of the board, wouldn't it, for example, be counterproductive and waaay off-topic to debate the merits of drugs vs. no drugs? I think most of us recognize an extreme position when we see it. I dunno, it seems like arguing with a flat-earther when one is doing one's level best just to survive, on the round.
Zo
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 26, 2002, at 7:25:48
In reply to Re: Irrelevance? » Dr. Bob, posted by Zo on March 26, 2002, at 2:25:21
Zo;
You can not arrive at the truth if there are restrictions to what people can say. I posted Patric Henry's speech given in 1775 on another thread. If you did not see that, and if you would like me to post it on this thread, let me know and I will do so. Dr. Bob's interjection on this thread to allow all points ofview to be expressed is very important for this board to arrive at the truth and I wholhartedly support him in this regard.
Lou
Lou
Posted by JohnX2 on March 26, 2002, at 7:38:32
In reply to Re: Breggin Shmeggin, posted by David Smith on March 24, 2002, at 18:12:42
> NEVER stop taking your meds without medical assistance. I know from personal experience.What did you goof up exactly with your medicines?
John
Posted by Zo on March 26, 2002, at 18:01:07
In reply to In defense of Dr. Bob » Zo, posted by Lou Pilder on March 26, 2002, at 7:25:48
Dear Lou, I hope you didn't mean that my post came across as an "attack" on Dr. Bob, which was certainly not my intention! I was writing about a certain ambiguity in the structure of the board---which I suppose is in DB's hands anyway, so. ..
Thanks for your thoughts on this,
Zo
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