![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by IsoM on February 15, 2002, at 23:31:00
In reply to Re: Adrafinil will never see our shores: Never:(, posted by Michael D on February 15, 2002, at 22:40:57
Michael, all drugs when they're metabolised & not excreted unchanged, are metabolised by the liver. Some drugs can be harder on the liver than others. Acetaminophen (Tylenol) is one the worse drug for the liver (its chief metabolite is very poisonous). It isn't that adrafinil or modafinil is toxic to the liver, but the liver is the major processing plant of the body where all chemicals other than nutrients undergo changes before being excreted from the body. (The explanation is a little simplistic but just trying to give you an idea).
Different drugs use different enzymatic pathways in the liver for metabolism. I'm NOT advocating anything on this site but this link will give you a quick rundown on *how* the liver works, if you're interested in educating yourself about these matters:
http://www.garynull.com/Documents/Continuum/LiverOfTheMatter.htmAnyway, in a healthy individual, the liver can handle adrafinil & modafinil, but due to differences in our genetic make-up, in our health, diet, other meds, & enviroment, people's ability to metabolise different medications vary. Hence, the need for regular liver enzyme level checks.
Posted by IsoM on February 15, 2002, at 23:35:41
In reply to Re: Adrafinil will never see our shores: Never:(, posted by manowar on February 15, 2002, at 20:54:10
Ah, Tim, I know, I know. ...I'm a realist too but still hoping. Very silly of me though. That's probably what kept me going through all my life.
I sure hope they don't end up stopping adrafinil production in France down the road. There'd probably be too much of an outcry in Europe, if they did. Wonder if Provigil garners enough attention here in NA if any other companies will get going to come up with some other *afinils?
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 16, 2002, at 3:17:16
In reply to Modafinil vs. Adrafinil, posted by Michael D on February 15, 2002, at 16:36:21
I have been prescribed & take Provigil 200 mg/day + Klonopin 1 mg breakast, 1 mg lunch, 2 mg bedtime + Lamictal 50 mg (titrating up 25 mg a week to an effective dose) for Social Phobia, Depression, & Bipolar II/ADD. Luckily, my insurance company (Cigna) covered the Provigil.
Provigil has been well recieved by most people on this site, but for me the results so far have been relatively dissapointing. It seems to have effects on me similar to a slightly stronger version of sustained release caffeine that lasts 8-10 hours but without caffeine nervousness, anxiety, & insomnia. It does get you out of bed in the morning, but seems to be noticeably weaker for brain stimulation than the other ADD psychostimulants (but, on a positive note, has less side effects).
Once you take the prohibitively high cost into account, Provigil seems to be an overrated drug that some doctors are excited about because unlike the other ADD psychostimulants (Sch II), it poses a low abuse potential (Sch IV). (One amusing study I read was that drug addict monkeys preferred & self administered l-ephedrine (Over the counter Bronkaid asthma tablets) over Provigil!!!
I think on my next Psychiatrist visit I will ask about switching to Dexedrine Spansules which are like Provigil in that they have a long duration (10 hours?), smooth action, & once-a-day morning dosing. I am guessing that they cause less nervousness & anxiety because of their smooth, long, controlled release. [I tried Dexedrine 5 mg bid immediate release before & at that low dose Dexedrine increases talkativeness & self-confidence while reducing timidity. So I am thinking that when combined with high-dose Klonopin, Dexedrine Spansules may prove the ideal social phobia combination]. Has anyone out there tried the Dexedrine Spansules?
In my opinion Provigil pales in comparison to the amphetamines- Dexedrine, Dexedrine Spansules, Dextrostat, Adderall, & the psychostimulants Ritalin & Focalin) which I think are far superior & much cheaper psychostimulants/general stimulants.
3 Beers.
Posted by dennison on February 16, 2002, at 13:23:22
In reply to Modafinil vs. Adrafinil, posted by Michael D on February 15, 2002, at 16:36:21
> "Modafinil (Modiodal and Provigil), this is the very latest analogue of Adrafinil, and likewise is a unique non-sleep-affecting stimulant, specially designed to treat narcolepsy, hypersomnia and catoplexy.
>
> It is considerably more potent than Adrafinil, but is designed to be less likely to be the cause of any liver enzyme problems with long term use. Doses are one or two tablets (100mg each) as required. Avoid use in the evening."
>
> Does anyone have experience with Modafinil (Provigil or Modiodal)? Has it been approved in the US?
>
> Michael DewolfHi I took provigil for three months,200mg aday!!! Wow what A disappointment, from very first dose I noticed hmmm darn can't think straight-this is not good is it-nope course not!!!! I was bound and determined though to make it - no matter how much I sufferred as long as the eventual outcome was good. For 3 months I panicked,sufferred did absolutely nothing. How could I, I was in a mental cloud and plus my shoulder joint and neck were so painful couldn't even raise my arms, hmmm this is supposed to be helpful--I don't think so !!! Finally I said this shall stop, I went off provigil head cleared-up muscles worked ok-- hmm !! Well so much for the provigil bandwagon. Since I have seen several people "IRL" in real life go through the same syndrome-- strange how marketing studies don't reflect what occurs out in the "real" world, I had very very good expectations for provigil unfortunately didn't pan-out!!! :(:( Bummer too bad. Some people might do well on provigil just as some people do well on all sorts different meds,my opinion is that provigil will have limited success simply has very little utility and the side-effects were byfar worse that I've personally ever experienced and I've been round block few times. Geez I'd much better have liked to come on and give provigil rave review, hate to be so negative but this provigil is a real piece of work:(:( .
Posted by Michael D on February 16, 2002, at 13:37:10
In reply to Re: Modafinil vs. Adrafinil, posted by dennison on February 16, 2002, at 13:23:22
Thank you all for your replies.
From what I heard I think I'm going to lean away from Modafinil.
Michael Dewolf
Posted by Mr. Scott on February 16, 2002, at 14:38:30
In reply to Unhappy with Provigil, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 16, 2002, at 3:17:16
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 16, 2002, at 15:45:07
In reply to Re: Modafinil vs. Adrafinil, posted by Michael D on February 16, 2002, at 13:37:10
I wouldn't be scared away from Provigil. Go ahead & give it a one month trial. I just prefer a stronger (psycho)stimulant. Provigil is fairly subtle compared to the other prescription stimulants. I'm not exactly sure of the reason you are taking a stimulant, but Provigil definitely works as a general stimulant with less side effects than all the other stimulants including caffeine. (It should not 'cloud your head' but make thinking slightly clearer like caffeine- Dennison's fogginess may have been from a drug interaction). I take it at 8 am on an empty stomach, & I wake up by 8:30 am. It, with Klonopin at night, has finally stablilized my sleeping patterns (Before, with no medications, I couldn't fall asleep until 6:30 am & i'd wake up at 3:30 p.m.).
The problem for me is that is seems to work as a general stimulant but does not seem to be a very effective psychostimulant especially compared to Ritalin or Focalin (the 2 stimulants that cause the most brain/higher thought stimulation of all the stimulants) or even Dexedrine.
I do get up and clean my room, rearrange furniture, go shopping, & do any other tasks that need to be done, but it doesn't help me study (but that might be a procrastination problem of my own). My room is absolutely spotless, while before it was a disgusting mess. Additionally, I rewired my home theatre system for optimal sound etc.--- In other words I've gotten more done in the 2 weeks on Provigil than I had in the previous 3 months when on no stimulant at all & was depressed. (It is showing signs of pooping out at mid-afternoon, but at 2 weeks that seems too early to tell- might be my imagination.)
The problem with Provigil is that it is too expensive, & is not covered by many insurance companies. There are better, much cheaper (generic available) alternatives such as Dexedrine, Dexedrine Spansule, Ritalin, & Focalin (the new improved d-isomer of Ritalin- less side effects). Avoid Ritalin SR (sustained release)- inconsistent & lousy.
For extremely anxious or irritated individuals who need a more subtle medication, drug abusers, or those whose jobs are boring and/or don't involve much thinking (Provigil increases vigilance), Provigil may be a better choice than those above.
I am going ask to switch to Dexedrine spansules at my next psychiatrist visit (regular Dexedrine is stronger & more effective but I have social phobia & the spansules will cause less anxiety, & like Provigil you only have to take it once a day in the morning (which is nice).
BUT, assuming that I don't get any poopout on Provigil in the next two weeks, I'll probably return to Provigil later in life when I am used to a monotonous job routine & don't need strong psychostimulants to help me study. (Dexedrine increases your heart rate somewhat, so is probably not good for old people).
3 Beers.
> Thank you all for your replies.
>
> From what I heard I think I'm going to lean away from Modafinil.
>
> Michael Dewolf
Posted by Bob on February 16, 2002, at 15:47:20
In reply to Modafinil vs. Adrafinil, posted by Michael D on February 15, 2002, at 16:36:21
Does Modafanil have any effect on sexual function - good or bad?
Bob
Posted by spike4848 on February 16, 2002, at 17:52:04
In reply to Unhappy with Provigil, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 16, 2002, at 3:17:16
Sorry about the language, but 100mg of provigil gave me palpations and panic attacks. Maybe I need to increase my klonopin .... but I hate to jackup one drug just to tolerate another.
Spike
PS I miss my "screw lexa" post! LOL
Posted by Ritch on February 16, 2002, at 21:56:30
In reply to Screw Provigil!, posted by spike4848 on February 16, 2002, at 17:52:04
> Sorry about the language, but 100mg of provigil gave me palpations and panic attacks. Maybe I need to increase my klonopin .... but I hate to jackup one drug just to tolerate another.
>
> Spike
>
> PS I miss my "screw lexa" post! LOL
Spike, so Provigil aint' no better than Ritalin or Adderall, etc.????Mitch
Posted by IsoM on February 16, 2002, at 22:45:47
In reply to Re: Screw Provigil! » spike4848, posted by Ritch on February 16, 2002, at 21:56:30
> > "...so Provigil aint' no better than Ritalin or Adderall, etc.????
Mitch"Mitch, it appears that it isn't better than the other stims for many people & for some, is much worse. But like most meds, for some people (me) it's way better than traditional stims. Probably has a lot to do with individual symptoms & metabolism.
Posted by Rick on February 18, 2002, at 22:07:30
In reply to Modafinil vs. Adrafinil, posted by Michael D on February 15, 2002, at 16:36:21
Michael -
Suggestion: Be careful about basing your conclusions about Provigil on one thread. For that matter, be careful basing your conclusions *soley* on what you see on this great board, period. There are just so many variables that can make a BIG difference in your response vs. others'...individual body chemistry; your specific mental disorder, subtype and manifestations; comorbid disorders if any; very importantly: what else you're taking (or NOT taking) at the same time (including OTC products); dosage; dosing schedule, more.
Provigil has added some wonderful dimensions to the good work Klonopin was alreay doing for my Social Phobia, whereas other stimulating meds (even just stimulating AD's like Wellbutrin and selegiline) added back lots of anxiety and worked against Klonopin's benefits. OTOH, if I were taking Provigil alone, my guess is it would be pretty damn ineffective for my SP, maybe even detrimental. Likewise, I know from experience that 100 mg goes a long way for me (some people get by with even 50 mg or 75 mg). I do spike it to 200 mg on ocasional days, but when I keep that up for too long, I start to get kind of wired and Provigil's benefits decline.
The good thing abut trying Provigil -- and even here YMMV -- is that you should know pretty quickly whether it's helping, hurting, or having no effect. If it's not helping after a week or two including dosage adjustment in the appropriate direction, you can dump it almost cold turkey. (Do check with your doctor of course in case you have a disorder where a sudden shift in medication can be dangerous. In any event, there are no physical withdrawal symptoms.)
Cautions: 1) Provigil can have an initial mild-euphoria effect for some poeple, and when this quickly dissipates they mistakenly assume poop-out. 2) That said, since it can self-metabolize, Provigil sometimes CAN poop out temporarily. This usually resolves quickly; if not, increase the dose a little for a few days. 3) While this seems like an uncommon side effect, Provigil can raise blood pressure in some people, so be sure to check a few times to see if this applies to you.
Other threads have many reports on response to Provigil -- ranging from very negative to very positive (count me gratefully and enthusiastically in the latter group, at least in tandem with Klonopin).
Incidentally, with regard to the comment that pdocs like prescribing Provigil because it is in a lower-control class than amphetamine based drugs: I had to spend weeks cajoling my pdoc to prescribe Provigil instead of the Ritalin that he wanted me to try. I'm glad I persisted in making a case for Provigil. That was a year and a half ago.
Rick
Posted by Rick on February 18, 2002, at 22:43:49
In reply to Re: Modafinil vs. Adrafinil » Michael D, posted by Bob on February 16, 2002, at 15:47:20
> Does Modafanil have any effect on sexual function - good or bad?
>
> BobMy experience on doses up to 200 mg Provigil: Slightly pro-sexual. Certainly no selegiline/deprenyl, though!
Rick
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 19, 2002, at 1:33:39
In reply to Re: Modafinil vs. Adrafinil » Michael D, posted by Rick on February 18, 2002, at 22:07:30
I read somewhere that if you have prior experience with the "hard" psychostimulants like Dexedrine, Adderall, Desoxyn, Ritalin, Concerta or Focalin then you will probably be dissapointed with Provigil because it is not nearly as powerful as the above drugs (although it lasts much longer).
But if you are so-called "naive" with stimulants, then Provigil 200 mg would probably be a great medication for you. It it also good because it is a once a day med so people at work won't see you taking a pill during your lunch break & think you are a
'druggie'.In the study I read the "naive" subjects did very well on Provigil 200 mg, while Dexedrine users who agreed to switch to Provigil often dropped out of the study & started taking Dexedrine again, were non-compliant, & in general had difficulty switching to Provigil.
As a case in point I used to be on a high dose of Ritalin (20 mg 2x per day). I also used to abuse Adderall (obtained from friends) the night before exams or before college parties to be more social. This morning I took 200 mg of Provigil on an empty stomach & could still not get out of bed, while a "naive" stimulant user probably would have been up, ready to take on the world, & be singing in the shower.
I then took another 100 mg of Provigil about 2 hours later (still with an empty stomach) & still lounged in bed. Finally, I had to resort to taking 50 mg of Primatene ephedrine hcl w/ 2 mg of Klonopin to offset the horrible ephedrine side effects, & for the rest of the day I was awake & incredibly productive.Interestingly, I noticed that with 2 mg of Klonopin I had no social anxiety with the 50 mg ephedrine hcl (the max dose of ephedrine which is probably the most anxiety/nervousness/side effect ridden stimulant out there- if I take ephedrine by itself I am a nervous wreck
).
Perhaps, any psychostimulant (EXCEPT Ritalin/Focalin/Concerta which tends to make people shy/introverted & focused on their work rather than other people) combined with the right dose of Klonopin will make social phobia go away.When I took Dexedrine 5 mg 2x per day WITH NO OTHER MEDICATIONS I had a major increase in self-confidence, self-esteem, immediate relief from major depression, & very little social anxiety & even some social disinhibition. Personally, I haven't experienced any of these social enhancing effects with Provigil, which is why I am hoping to switch back to Dexedrine in a few weeks. I am going to try the Dexedrine spansule b/c I think that because it has a subtle & long action it would work better for social phobia than regular Dexedrine, although (unfortunately) it would not work as well for ADD/psychostimulant purposes. But I have never heard of anyone who has tried the Dexedrine Spansules, so they might "suck" like Ritalin SR (a pretty worthless drug).
Anyways I am happy that I have found the right combination for me after months of SSRI/Effexor/Remeron agony-
1-- Lamictal (mood-stabilizer/anti-depressant); 2-- Non-Caffeine prescription Stimulant {Provigil or Dexedrine] (to get out of bed in the morning & to reduce timidity (from low dopamine) & cause social disinhibiton;
3-- Most importantly Klonopin (although Klonopin makes you kind of "dumb" & seems to affect short term memory).
So I guess the moral of the story is, once you have takeb "hard" ADD stimulants you have a very hard time going back to "soft" stimulants like Provigil or Adrafinil----- Kind of like how people who take the pain killers for chronic pain Dilaudiud/Numporphan/Morphine/Percocet have a really hard time when there doctor refuses to give them those meds anymore & puts them on the weaker painkillers Vicodin or Codeine.
Posted by Bekka H. on February 19, 2002, at 7:08:29
In reply to Provigil vs. other psychostimulants, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 19, 2002, at 1:33:39
Hello 3 Beer Effect. You're back!
I was wondering how much Lamictal you take and when do you take it (at night)? Did you have difficulty starting it? Did you get rashes, etc? Any other side effects?
By the way, I've taken Dex Spansules in the past, and it felt kind of "vague" because I was used to the intensity of the immediate release tabs. Maybe if I had tried the spansules first, it would have been better. Also, the Dexedrine people (i.e., the manufacturers) really need to upgrade their technology. They should make a Dex spansule similar to Concerta's release mechanism.
Posted by Mark H. on February 19, 2002, at 10:16:05
In reply to Modafinil vs. Adrafinil, posted by Michael D on February 15, 2002, at 16:36:21
My two cents:
Provigil: extremely expensive and effective, yet I didn't get anything accomplished for the four months I was on it, and I didn't care. If it had gone on much longer, I would have lost my job.
The other brand: not approved for use in the US. Why risk liver damage and import risks for something less effective than Provigil?
Mark H.
Posted by Rick on February 19, 2002, at 10:17:52
In reply to Provigil vs. other psychostimulants, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 19, 2002, at 1:33:39
> So I guess the moral of the story is, once you have takeb "hard" ADD stimulants you have a very hard time going back to "soft" stimulants like Provigil or Adrafinil----- Kind of like how people who take the pain killers for chronic pain Dilaudiud/Numporphan/Morphine/Percocet have a really hard time when there doctor refuses to give them those meds anymore & puts them on the weaker painkillers Vicodin or Codeine.Or kind of like benzo users who are switched to BuSpar. But that could be because they're used to the quick sedative effects benzos provide, or because BuSpar is a placebo for most people and often prescribed for the wrong disorders (panic, social phobia)?
Rick
Posted by Rick on February 19, 2002, at 11:07:34
In reply to Re: Modafinil vs. Adrafinil, posted by Mark H. on February 19, 2002, at 10:16:05
> My two cents:
>
> Provigil: extremely expensive and effective, yet I didn't get anything accomplished for the four months I was on it, and I didn't care. If it had gone on much longer, I would have lost my job.Interesting. I finally got the performance-based promotion I wanted, plus several award for my work after starting Provigil. Helps mental alertness and concentration for me, but unfortunately not memory. Never ceases to amaze me how difrently people react to the same meds. E.g., some people find Celexa activating. (For me, it was, "Leave me alone, I want to sleep!")
Rick
Posted by IsoM on February 19, 2002, at 11:30:19
In reply to Re: Modafinil vs. Adrafinil » Mark H., posted by Rick on February 19, 2002, at 11:07:34
Ahh, yes... individual differences can be amazing! Modafinil doesn't activate one person but does another. Doesn't help memory of one but does of another. Makes one person jittery & wired, another calm & relaxed but still alert.
Mark H's point is exactly why nobody will really know how a certain med will affect them till they give it a "fair trial" period. I have had nothing but very GOOD results from adrafinil (so probably would with modafinil too). It's been a real God-send to me & I am now finishing looking for the perfect med combo to work for me as I've found it at last.
3 Beer Effect mentioned that he found a vast diff between hard stims & soft ones like modafinil/adrafinil. He theroised that anyone who's used the hard stims probably wouldn't get much from the soft ones. I don't doubt that may be true for many (like him) but definitely isn't for me.
The activating effects of adrafinil are honestly as strong for me as Dexedrine but way gentler, always even (no peaks & dips like I got from a dose kicking in then wearing off), but for me, more focused.
It reminds me of someone's description of a person with ADHD - "he leapt on his horse & rode off wildly in all directions". That's me with Dexedrine, that's even me without stims but only in bursts. With adrafinil, I ride off wildly in just one direction. Maybe someone without the hyper part of ADD, lethargic instead, might feel better with hard stims.
Posted by Lorraine on February 19, 2002, at 14:16:40
In reply to Re: Modafinil vs. Adrafinil » Michael D, posted by Rick on February 18, 2002, at 22:07:30
Rick: I LIKE provigil. I have added Klonopin (great move). My big question is whether I can lower my blood pressure (150/100). Any supplement ideas?
Posted by IsoM on February 19, 2002, at 15:02:22
In reply to Re: Modafinil vs. Adrafinil » Rick, posted by Lorraine on February 19, 2002, at 14:16:40
Lorraine, there are supplements that are beneficial for those with hypertension but if it's idiomatic hypertension, very little will lower it except for medication.
The supplements that are supposed to be beneficial are vitamin C (time-released is best & not wasted in your urine), vitamin E, calcium, magnesium, selenium, & coenzyme Q10. They don't help everyone but if your diet's low in these nutrients or you have trouble with proper absorption, these are recommended.
Here's a link about supplements & hypertension with medical articles of the diff supplements:
http://www.lifeclinic.com/focus/blood/vitamins.asp
Posted by Rick on February 19, 2002, at 21:52:43
In reply to Blood Pressure and Supplements » Lorraine, posted by IsoM on February 19, 2002, at 15:02:22
IsoM's suggestions are good ones. The best, safest, most reliable and likely cheapest (depending on your insurance) way to go is with antihyptertensive medications. If you're like me, a very small dose can go a long way. I do have to admit that, as much as Provigil helps me, I would have taken a long hard look at it at the start had I realized that it raises my blood pressure. But for me Serzone somehow cancelled out that effect, so I never even knew about it until I stopped Serzone for a few months. Man, I would have hated to give up the Provigil, and I'm glad my experiment recently showed that after a year and a half Provigil
had no permanent hypertensive effect that would always require a BP-lowering agent. (I stopped everything but the Klonopin for a few days just to check, and the BP quickly dropped back to normal.)During more than two months, I took several of the supplements IsoM mentioned. I took a pretty high dose (100 mg/day) of CoQ10 the whole time, and don't think it lowered my BP much if at all. But it only seems to have that effect for certain people. I'm sticking with it for now because it can have other beneficial effects.
I'm not usually into herbs, but I found quite a few that lower my BP, usually within an hour (the same way I have reacted to antihypertensive meds). I didn't take any of this lightly; I subscribed to the Natural Medicines Database (evidence-based resource written by Pharmacists).
Many of the herbs that lowered my BP seemed to poop out quickly, and/or have very short half-lives. One supplement that appears safe and lowered my BP consistently at one or two dosings a day was Maitake Mushroom (I never would have believed it, to tell you the truth). I actually found that capsules with plain crushed herb were a lot more dependable than the "high-powered" standardized extracts. It's expensive, though, and if you use it you should stick with a major brand, including Grifron which is the company that researched and popularized Maitake. The GNC product worked great for me, but as with many GNC products they are extremely conservative with dosing recommendations. I do recommend their Maitake, but because their capsules contain only 100 mg Maitake powder, you could easily need 9-10 a day. (Until I restarted Serzone, which almost instantly lowered my BP again, I was taking 9 GNC Maitake capsules every morning.) Unlike some of the other herbs and supplements, the Maitake also brought a Provigil-induced resting-heart-rate increase back down. Unlike other brands, Grifron and GNC also mix Vitamin C in with the Maitake. Maybe there's some synergy there. Don't confuse Maitake with Shiitake, by the way. Shiitake is popular but potentially unsafe.Kudzu (Nature's Herbs STANDARDIZED extract) also has a rapid BP and heart-rate lowering effect for me. It's much less expensive than Maitake, and it's also considered safe, but I get the impression the effect doesn't last too long, i.e. you'd have to take it at least 3 times a day. While I'm not entirely comfortable about herbs, I much prefer ones that are NOT grown in China or India, based on discovery of heavy metals and and other substances in some of the preparations. If you try any of these (and there's no guarantee they'll lower your BP just because they lowered mine), do stick with "name" brands like Nature's Way, Nature Made, GNC, Grifron, and Solgar. And check the expiration dates.
Fyi, others that lowered my BP substantially, at least at first:
-- Olive Leaf (but safety recrd not established)
-- Vinpocetine (actually intended as a memory-booster)
--ReishiWhen I tried Ginkgo a few years ago, it lowered my blood pressure as well, at least initially. In fact, when I look through the "mechanisms of action" sections on the NMD, many of the herbs included show evidence of hypotensive properties (more specifically, certain constituents within the herbs show those properties).
Below is the Natural Medicine Database's write-up on Maitake. You'll note that they say there is insufficient evidence of effectiveness, because almost all studies have been in animals, and the NMD requires some well-designed human studies before they'll say something is "effective" or "possibly effective." But check the "safety" and "mechanisms of action" sections to see why I decided to try it. If I quit Serzone again (leaving just Provigil and Klonopin), I'll probably start taking whole-herb Maitake again if I don't take an antihypertensive or another psychotropic med that lowers my BP:
RickMAITAKE MUSHROOM
Also Known As:
Dancing Mushroom, Grifola, Hen Of The Woods, King Of Mushrooms, Maitake, Monkey's Bench, Shelf Fungi.
Scientific Names:
Grifola frondosa.
Family: Polyporaceae.
People Use This For:
Orally, maitake mushroom is used for cancer, HIV/AIDS, chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), hepatitis, hay fever, diabetes, high blood pressure, hyperlipidemia, weight loss or control, and chemotherapy support (1900).
For food uses, maitake mushroom is edible (1210) and has been consumed in Asia for thousands of years (6).
Safety:
POSSIBLY SAFE ...when used orally and appropriately (12).
PREGNANCY AND LACTATION: Insufficient reliable information available; avoid using.
Effectiveness:
There is insufficient reliable information available about the effectiveness of maitake mushroom.
Mechanism of Action:
The applicable parts of maitake mushroom are the fruiting body and mycelium. Maitake mushroom contains beta-glucan, which has been shown to possess antitumor activity. The "D-fraction" of betaglucan appears to be the most active and potent form (6). Maitake mushroom has immunostimulant effects and activates natural killer cells, cytotoxic T-cells, interleukin-1, and superoxide anions (6). Experiments have shown varied effects. In hypertensive rats, it lowers blood pressure (1213,1214), and it improves the lipid profile in hyperlipidemic rats (1209,1211). In genetically-induced diabetic mice, it lowers blood glucose (1212), and in overweight rats, it reduces weight (6). Maitake mushroom might improve the quality of life of people with cancer by improving cancer symptoms and reducing pain, and it can aid in weight loss in overweight people (6). However, controlled studies are needed to confirm these effects (6).
Adverse Reactions:
None reported.
Interactions with Herbs & Supplements:
Insufficient reliable information available.
Interactions with Drugs:
DIABETES THERAPY: Monitor blood glucose levels closely due to claims that maitake mushroom has hypoglycemic effects (19).
Interactions with Foods:
No interactions are known to occur, and there is no known reason to expect a clinically significant interaction with maitake mushroom.
Interactions with Lab Tests:
No interactions are known to occur, and there is no known reason to expect a clinically significant interaction with maitake mushroom.
Interactions with Diseases or Conditions:
No interactions are known to occur, and there is no known reason to expect a clinically significant interaction with maitake mushroom.
Dosage/Administration:
ORAL: People typically take 500 to 1000 mg of maitake mushroom with water 2 or 3 times daily between meals. Maitake "D fraction" is typically dosed 6 mg twice daily between meals. The "D fraction" is also available as a liquid, approximately 1 mg/mL. For general use as a dietary supplement, the dose is 5 to 6 drops 3 times daily between meals. Health care professionals are directed to prescribe 0.5 to 1 mg/kg of body weight. If maitake mushroom causes stomach upset, the supplement is taken with food. Sometimes the dose is doubled or tripled (5273).
Comments:
The potential for toxicity exists when other mushrooms are mistaken for maitake mushroom (6).
> Lorraine, there are supplements that are beneficial for those with hypertension but if it's idiomatic hypertension, very little will lower it except for medication.
>
> The supplements that are supposed to be beneficial are vitamin C (time-released is best & not wasted in your urine), vitamin E, calcium, magnesium, selenium, & coenzyme Q10. They don't help everyone but if your diet's low in these nutrients or you have trouble with proper absorption, these are recommended.
>
> Here's a link about supplements & hypertension with medical articles of the diff supplements:
> http://www.lifeclinic.com/focus/blood/vitamins.asp
Posted by Rick on February 20, 2002, at 1:15:47
In reply to Re: Blood Pressure and Supplements -- Lorraine, posted by Rick on February 19, 2002, at 21:52:43
Forgot to mention that two inexpensive amino acids can lower blood pressure for many people:
Taurine. Also reportedly good for anxiety and maintaing normal heart rhythm in response to stress. For some reason, Taurine is used in "energy" drinks like Red Bull.
L-Arginine. Increases nitric oxide, I believe, which relaxes blood vessels. But may cause more frequent recurrence of cold sores if you've previously been exposed to this type of herpes.
Vitamin B-6 reportedly helps control blood pressure, but I wouldn't expect quick results. And don't take more than 200 mcg (or is that mg.)
Don't know if these will lower a Provigil-induced increase, or how long it takes to see an impact.
> IsoM's suggestions are good ones. The best, safest, most reliable and likely cheapest (depending on your insurance) way to go is with antihyptertensive medications. If you're like me, a very small dose can go a long way. I do have to admit that, as much as Provigil helps me, I would have taken a long hard look at it at the start had I realized that it raises my blood pressure. But for me Serzone somehow cancelled out that effect, so I never even knew about it until I stopped Serzone for a few months. Man, I would have hated to give up the Provigil, and I'm glad my experiment recently showed that after a year and a half Provigil
> had no permanent hypertensive effect that would always require a BP-lowering agent. (I stopped everything but the Klonopin for a few days just to check, and the BP quickly dropped back to normal.)
>
> During more than two months, I took several of the supplements IsoM mentioned. I took a pretty high dose (100 mg/day) of CoQ10 the whole time, and don't think it lowered my BP much if at all. But it only seems to have that effect for certain people. I'm sticking with it for now because it can have other beneficial effects.
>
> I'm not usually into herbs, but I found quite a few that lower my BP, usually within an hour (the same way I have reacted to antihypertensive meds). I didn't take any of this lightly; I subscribed to the Natural Medicines Database (evidence-based resource written by Pharmacists).
> Many of the herbs that lowered my BP seemed to poop out quickly, and/or have very short half-lives. One supplement that appears safe and lowered my BP consistently at one or two dosings a day was Maitake Mushroom (I never would have believed it, to tell you the truth). I actually found that capsules with plain crushed herb were a lot more dependable than the "high-powered" standardized extracts. It's expensive, though, and if you use it you should stick with a major brand, including Grifron which is the company that researched and popularized Maitake. The GNC product worked great for me, but as with many GNC products they are extremely conservative with dosing recommendations. I do recommend their Maitake, but because their capsules contain only 100 mg Maitake powder, you could easily need 9-10 a day. (Until I restarted Serzone, which almost instantly lowered my BP again, I was taking 9 GNC Maitake capsules every morning.) Unlike some of the other herbs and supplements, the Maitake also brought a Provigil-induced resting-heart-rate increase back down. Unlike other brands, Grifron and GNC also mix Vitamin C in with the Maitake. Maybe there's some synergy there. Don't confuse Maitake with Shiitake, by the way. Shiitake is popular but potentially unsafe.
>
> Kudzu (Nature's Herbs STANDARDIZED extract) also has a rapid BP and heart-rate lowering effect for me. It's much less expensive than Maitake, and it's also considered safe, but I get the impression the effect doesn't last too long, i.e. you'd have to take it at least 3 times a day. While I'm not entirely comfortable about herbs, I much prefer ones that are NOT grown in China or India, based on discovery of heavy metals and and other substances in some of the preparations. If you try any of these (and there's no guarantee they'll lower your BP just because they lowered mine), do stick with "name" brands like Nature's Way, Nature Made, GNC, Grifron, and Solgar. And check the expiration dates.
>
> Fyi, others that lowered my BP substantially, at least at first:
> -- Olive Leaf (but safety recrd not established)
> -- Vinpocetine (actually intended as a memory-booster)
> --Reishi
>
> When I tried Ginkgo a few years ago, it lowered my blood pressure as well, at least initially. In fact, when I look through the "mechanisms of action" sections on the NMD, many of the herbs included show evidence of hypotensive properties (more specifically, certain constituents within the herbs show those properties).
>
> Below is the Natural Medicine Database's write-up on Maitake. You'll note that they say there is insufficient evidence of effectiveness, because almost all studies have been in animals, and the NMD requires some well-designed human studies before they'll say something is "effective" or "possibly effective." But check the "safety" and "mechanisms of action" sections to see why I decided to try it. If I quit Serzone again (leaving just Provigil and Klonopin), I'll probably start taking whole-herb Maitake again if I don't take an antihypertensive or another psychotropic med that lowers my BP:
>
>
> Rick
>
> MAITAKE MUSHROOM
>
>
> Also Known As:
> Dancing Mushroom, Grifola, Hen Of The Woods, King Of Mushrooms, Maitake, Monkey's Bench, Shelf Fungi.
> Scientific Names:
> Grifola frondosa.
> Family: Polyporaceae.
> People Use This For:
> Orally, maitake mushroom is used for cancer, HIV/AIDS, chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), hepatitis, hay fever, diabetes, high blood pressure, hyperlipidemia, weight loss or control, and chemotherapy support (1900).
> For food uses, maitake mushroom is edible (1210) and has been consumed in Asia for thousands of years (6).
> Safety:
> POSSIBLY SAFE ...when used orally and appropriately (12).
> PREGNANCY AND LACTATION: Insufficient reliable information available; avoid using.
> Effectiveness:
> There is insufficient reliable information available about the effectiveness of maitake mushroom.
> Mechanism of Action:
> The applicable parts of maitake mushroom are the fruiting body and mycelium. Maitake mushroom contains beta-glucan, which has been shown to possess antitumor activity. The "D-fraction" of betaglucan appears to be the most active and potent form (6). Maitake mushroom has immunostimulant effects and activates natural killer cells, cytotoxic T-cells, interleukin-1, and superoxide anions (6). Experiments have shown varied effects. In hypertensive rats, it lowers blood pressure (1213,1214), and it improves the lipid profile in hyperlipidemic rats (1209,1211). In genetically-induced diabetic mice, it lowers blood glucose (1212), and in overweight rats, it reduces weight (6). Maitake mushroom might improve the quality of life of people with cancer by improving cancer symptoms and reducing pain, and it can aid in weight loss in overweight people (6). However, controlled studies are needed to confirm these effects (6).
> Adverse Reactions:
> None reported.
> Interactions with Herbs & Supplements:
> Insufficient reliable information available.
> Interactions with Drugs:
> DIABETES THERAPY: Monitor blood glucose levels closely due to claims that maitake mushroom has hypoglycemic effects (19).
> Interactions with Foods:
> No interactions are known to occur, and there is no known reason to expect a clinically significant interaction with maitake mushroom.
> Interactions with Lab Tests:
> No interactions are known to occur, and there is no known reason to expect a clinically significant interaction with maitake mushroom.
> Interactions with Diseases or Conditions:
> No interactions are known to occur, and there is no known reason to expect a clinically significant interaction with maitake mushroom.
> Dosage/Administration:
> ORAL: People typically take 500 to 1000 mg of maitake mushroom with water 2 or 3 times daily between meals. Maitake "D fraction" is typically dosed 6 mg twice daily between meals. The "D fraction" is also available as a liquid, approximately 1 mg/mL. For general use as a dietary supplement, the dose is 5 to 6 drops 3 times daily between meals. Health care professionals are directed to prescribe 0.5 to 1 mg/kg of body weight. If maitake mushroom causes stomach upset, the supplement is taken with food. Sometimes the dose is doubled or tripled (5273).
> Comments:
> The potential for toxicity exists when other mushrooms are mistaken for maitake mushroom (6).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Lorraine, there are supplements that are beneficial for those with hypertension but if it's idiomatic hypertension, very little will lower it except for medication.
> >
> > The supplements that are supposed to be beneficial are vitamin C (time-released is best & not wasted in your urine), vitamin E, calcium, magnesium, selenium, & coenzyme Q10. They don't help everyone but if your diet's low in these nutrients or you have trouble with proper absorption, these are recommended.
> >
> > Here's a link about supplements & hypertension with medical articles of the diff supplements:
> > http://www.lifeclinic.com/focus/blood/vitamins.asp
Posted by Lorraine on February 20, 2002, at 21:24:44
In reply to Blood Pressure and Supplements » Lorraine, posted by IsoM on February 19, 2002, at 15:02:22
Thank-you so much for all of this information and for posting the site. I really appreciate it and think that I will definitely try some of these approaches to bringing it down. I have added magnesium and potassium, but will add some of the others Q10 and C to see their effects.
Lorraine
Posted by Lorraine on February 20, 2002, at 21:32:22
In reply to Re: Blood Pressure and Supplements -- A few more , posted by Rick on February 20, 2002, at 1:15:47
Rick: I really appreciate your two posts on this and others on provigil. Thank-you for taking the time to respond so fully. I really feel like I have the lay of the land now.
Lorraine
This is the end of the thread.
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