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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Mitch on July 25, 2001, at 0:24:48
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes » Mitch, posted by PattiJo on July 24, 2001, at 16:28:52
Patti,
I think you should see a neurologist (especially an epileptologist). You mentioned something very important-you said you *found* that you are *intolerant* of SSRi's. That is one "red flag" because serotonergic meds tend to aggravate temporal lobe problems and the other is the Ativan helps to diminish the symptoms-benzodiazepines have anticonvulsant properties. I find it interesting that you can listen to an entire song! I have had that experience as well, bu it tends to be the exception not the rule. One thing that is a little comical-if I try to "switch" the song-sometimes I can hear both of the songs playing at the same time for a while!
see a neuro-
Mitch
Posted by MB on July 25, 2001, at 0:53:43
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes » PattiJo, posted by Mitch on July 22, 2001, at 17:52:58
< snip >
> There is one thing that definitely makes it worse (for me and some others anyhow) and that is SSRi antidepressants. These are also good for OCD, which is why I don't think it is OCD. You wouldn't also be taking one of those by chance would you??
< snip >
I get this too. SSRIs definitely make it worse. So do stimulants. I don't think it is OCD at all, either. Personally, I think it is related to tic disorder. Whenever it happens, I also have facial and diaphragmatic tics that go along with it. For me, the music isn't an obsession. It's like a tic, only instead of moving a muscle over and over, I say a word or "listen" to a tune in my head over and over. It's not a hallucination, either...it's definitely self generated. Is this what it's like for you guys? I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. I used to have echolalia as a kid, and it feels identical, only the sound isn't comming out of my mouth, it's happening in my head.
Posted by Mitch on July 25, 2001, at 14:54:40
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes » Mitch, posted by MB on July 25, 2001, at 0:53:43
> < snip >
>
> > There is one thing that definitely makes it worse (for me and some others anyhow) and that is SSRi antidepressants. These are also good for OCD, which is why I don't think it is OCD. You wouldn't also be taking one of those by chance would you??
>
> < snip >
>
> I get this too. SSRIs definitely make it worse. So do stimulants. I don't think it is OCD at all, either. Personally, I think it is related to tic disorder. Whenever it happens, I also have facial and diaphragmatic tics that go along with it. For me, the music isn't an obsession. It's like a tic, only instead of moving a muscle over and over, I say a word or "listen" to a tune in my head over and over. It's not a hallucination, either...it's definitely self generated. Is this what it's like for you guys? I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. I used to have echolalia as a kid, and it feels identical, only the sound isn't comming out of my mouth, it's happening in my head.
Yes, in my case it does sound very much like that. I don't get the facial corollary, however I DID used to (and still do at times) have echolalia when I was a teenager , also about the time the "scale illusions" started-which is very suspicious for temporal lobe epilepsy. We may not be talking about exactly the "same" thing, but I believe it is coming from the same part of the brain. Oh another thing I found out from a little researching-people with TLE may sometimes have "echopraxia" which is imitation of another person's behaviour (sometimes unconsciously), I also have done that. It is like instead of repeating the last word of someone's else's sentence, you start talking like them (mannerisms and accents, etc.) or posturing like them-I have done that too....I will look through any followups when I get back on Sunday,
Mitch
Posted by Simcha on July 25, 2001, at 15:30:33
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes » MB, posted by Mitch on July 25, 2001, at 14:54:40
OMG! I've had this too!!! Maybe I have more compulsive behaviors than I thought. Thank God I'm starting an SSRI maybe I'll find out what it is like to be normal.
I had no idea that I was depressed most of my life until I started my first AD, Effexor, and all of the sudden I woke up one morning and I wanted to be alive.
I thought that everyone woke up wanting to sleep more and wanting to be dead!@!! I now understand that this is not so.
I always thought everyone imitated the mannerisms of people they liked. Also I thought that everyone had music running through their heads that they could not get rid of..... This has been lessened since therapy..... Gee, I guess "normies" don't have these obsessive/compulsive characteristics, huh? Well I'm amazed again. It'll be amazing recovering from all of this so that I can see what I can do unencombered by these obsessions and my depression. Hmmm...
> > < snip >
> >
> > > There is one thing that definitely makes it worse (for me and some others anyhow) and that is SSRi antidepressants. These are also good for OCD, which is why I don't think it is OCD. You wouldn't also be taking one of those by chance would you??
> >
> > < snip >
> >
> > I get this too. SSRIs definitely make it worse. So do stimulants. I don't think it is OCD at all, either. Personally, I think it is related to tic disorder. Whenever it happens, I also have facial and diaphragmatic tics that go along with it. For me, the music isn't an obsession. It's like a tic, only instead of moving a muscle over and over, I say a word or "listen" to a tune in my head over and over. It's not a hallucination, either...it's definitely self generated. Is this what it's like for you guys? I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. I used to have echolalia as a kid, and it feels identical, only the sound isn't comming out of my mouth, it's happening in my head.
>
>
> Yes, in my case it does sound very much like that. I don't get the facial corollary, however I DID used to (and still do at times) have echolalia when I was a teenager , also about the time the "scale illusions" started-which is very suspicious for temporal lobe epilepsy. We may not be talking about exactly the "same" thing, but I believe it is coming from the same part of the brain. Oh another thing I found out from a little researching-people with TLE may sometimes have "echopraxia" which is imitation of another person's behaviour (sometimes unconsciously), I also have done that. It is like instead of repeating the last word of someone's else's sentence, you start talking like them (mannerisms and accents, etc.) or posturing like them-I have done that too....
>
> I will look through any followups when I get back on Sunday,
>
> Mitch
Posted by MB on July 25, 2001, at 16:22:31
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes » MB, posted by Mitch on July 25, 2001, at 14:54:40
> Yes, in my case it does sound very much like that. I don't get the facial corollary, however I DID used to (and still do at times) have echolalia when I was a teenager , also about the time the "scale illusions" started-which is very suspicious for temporal lobe epilepsy. We may not be talking about exactly the "same" thing, but I believe it is coming from the same part of the brain. Oh another thing I found out from a little researching-people with TLE may sometimes have "echopraxia" which is imitation of another person's behaviour (sometimes unconsciously), I also have done that. It is like instead of repeating the last word of someone's else's sentence, you start talking like them (mannerisms and accents, etc.) or posturing like them-I have done that too....
>
> I will look through any followups when I get back on Sunday,
>
> MitchWhen you talk about "scale illusions, are you talking about illusions about the sizes of things (like putting on the wrong glasses? If so, I don't think I've had that (yet, thank God!).
Posted by jojo on July 25, 2001, at 18:43:11
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes-response to Mitch, posted by PattiJo on July 23, 2001, at 21:06:35
> Hi, Mitch,
>
> Thanks for your help. I am glad to hear that I am not the only person with this problem. It seems that whenever I tell someone about it, they look at me like I am crazy. I had one physician (the ear specialist) ask me if I heard voices, which has never been a problem for me. I am afraid to tell anyone about it because of the responses I have been getting. There is certainly a sense of loneliness about this symptom. Two years ago, I had a depressive episode and tried all kinds of medications (Prozac, Zoloft, Wellbutrin,Serzone, etc.) but they either didn't work or I suffered from side effects so No I am not on any SSRI's or any medications. Have you ever tried Luvox? They say that that medication is for OCD--but again, I don't think it's OCD. It would be nice to know how many people suffer from this condition so some research could be done on it. I have heard from somewhere that it could be a result of a seizure--but I have no history of seizures, but I suppose that doesn't mean that you couldn't have a seizure and not know about it. Since you're on Depakote and Neurontin, does that mean you have a bipolar disorder or a seizure disorder? Thanks for the idea of an EEG--right now I am sick of doctors and tests, but if the music doesn't go away soon, I may be desperate enough to try again. Again, thanks for responding.
>
> PattiThis symptom may be similar to what you are talking about, or it may be completely
different, but I have had it all of my life. I don't know a better way to describe it other
than "doing music". I don't hear it, and I think that generally I'm sub-vocalizing it. Its
outward expression in humming, which I have also done all of my life.
"Doing " the music is something like suppressed humming, and possibly only goes
away when I am focused on something. As one would expect, it is decreased by
effective antidepressants, generally SSRIs.
jojo
Posted by PattiJo on July 27, 2001, at 22:48:33
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes » PattiJo, posted by Mitch on July 25, 2001, at 0:24:48
> Patti,
>
> I think you should see a neurologist (especially an epileptologist). You mentioned something very important-you said you *found* that you are *intolerant* of SSRi's. That is one "red flag" because serotonergic meds tend to aggravate temporal lobe problems and the other is the Ativan helps to diminish the symptoms-benzodiazepines have anticonvulsant properties. I find it interesting that you can listen to an entire song! I have had that experience as well, bu it tends to be the exception not the rule. One thing that is a little comical-if I try to "switch" the song-sometimes I can hear both of the songs playing at the same time for a while!
>
> see a neuro-
>
> MitchThanks, for your suggestion. I see my doctor the first part of August and will see if she can refer me to a neurologist.
Patti
Posted by Mitch on July 28, 2001, at 19:28:48
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes » Mitch, posted by MB on July 25, 2001, at 16:22:31
>
> > Yes, in my case it does sound very much like that. I don't get the facial corollary, however I DID used to (and still do at times) have echolalia when I was a teenager , also about the time the "scale illusions" started-which is very suspicious for temporal lobe epilepsy. We may not be talking about exactly the "same" thing, but I believe it is coming from the same part of the brain. Oh another thing I found out from a little researching-people with TLE may sometimes have "echopraxia" which is imitation of another person's behaviour (sometimes unconsciously), I also have done that. It is like instead of repeating the last word of someone's else's sentence, you start talking like them (mannerisms and accents, etc.) or posturing like them-I have done that too....
> >
> > I will look through any followups when I get back on Sunday,
> >
> > Mitch
>
> When you talk about "scale illusions, are you talking about illusions about the sizes of things (like putting on the wrong glasses? If so, I don't think I've had that (yet, thank God!).Well, not exactly (although it is a little like that). It is more like sitting on a couch or something and suddenly the room seems very very large and you feel very very large as well. I guess it can go the other way-but I have always had the "huge" or "cavernous" type illusions. Mostly inside, but sometimes outside.
Mitch
Posted by MB on July 28, 2001, at 22:58:54
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes » MB, posted by Mitch on July 28, 2001, at 19:28:48
> >
> > > Yes, in my case it does sound very much like that. I don't get the facial corollary, however I DID used to (and still do at times) have echolalia when I was a teenager , also about the time the "scale illusions" started-which is very suspicious for temporal lobe epilepsy. We may not be talking about exactly the "same" thing, but I believe it is coming from the same part of the brain. Oh another thing I found out from a little researching-people with TLE may sometimes have "echopraxia" which is imitation of another person's behaviour (sometimes unconsciously), I also have done that. It is like instead of repeating the last word of someone's else's sentence, you start talking like them (mannerisms and accents, etc.) or posturing like them-I have done that too....
> > >
> > > I will look through any followups when I get back on Sunday,
> > >
> > > Mitch
> >
> > When you talk about "scale illusions, are you talking about illusions about the sizes of things (like putting on the wrong glasses? If so, I don't think I've had that (yet, thank God!).
>
> Well, not exactly (although it is a little like that). It is more like sitting on a couch or something and suddenly the room seems very very large and you feel very very large as well. I guess it can go the other way-but I have always had the "huge" or "cavernous" type illusions. Mostly inside, but sometimes outside.
>
> MitchI remember sitting in class as an eighth grader and realizing, suddenly, that everything was just plain weird...like it wasn't real...none of it, not the classroom, not me, not the students, etc. It was really freaky. I remember thinking, "well, this is it, I've finally flipped." I remember actually wondering if I was going to wake up from the experience to find it was a dream. The size didn't seem wrong, but the whole experience seemed wrong or just plain "off."
Posted by MM on July 28, 2001, at 23:20:01
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes » Mitch, posted by MB on July 28, 2001, at 22:58:54
How suggestive of TLE is scale illusions (like does having them mean almost definitely, or just a possibility)? Zo said her TLE didn't show up on an EEG, so I'm thinking of not even getting one, as she said it's fairly common that TLE doesn't show up. I get those scale illusions maybe a few times a month (I'll be lying in bed, feeling "weird" and feel like my bed is humungous and I'm really small, then a few seconds later my head will feel huge and my bed will feel small. IT alternates between the two, and i KNOW it's not REALLY happening, but it's sort of the sensation of it. It's hard to articulate, but your post sounds like what I get.) Does forgeting the meaning of words while on no meds suggest anything? I ask because as I posted this I had to change a sentence because I wasn't sure what "clench" meant. Just thought I'd ask heh.
Posted by Zo on July 29, 2001, at 0:36:37
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes-Mitch, posted by MM on July 28, 2001, at 23:20:01
> How suggestive of TLE is scale illusions (like does having them mean almost definitely, or just a possibility)
VERY suggestive. . .! I had it persistently as a child, and was just knocked out to see it discussed on the Mass Gen Neuro board as common to TLE. You'll find it mentioned on a few other web sites.
Here's a page, "Possible Temporal Lobe Symptoms"
http://www.pni.org/neuropsychiatry/seizures/ptls.html
& see Inset for TLE screening checklist.
Zo
Posted by MM on July 29, 2001, at 1:27:03
In reply to Re: Big and Small » MM, posted by Zo on July 29, 2001, at 0:36:37
Thanks for the link. I actually remembered (from it happening again now) that I had this persistantly as a child too, (had snow as well) but it always happend before I went to bed, so I probably forgot and didn't mention it to anyone, even tho it kinda scared me. I just thought, I guess this happens before I go to sleep.
Posted by Mitch on July 29, 2001, at 13:55:35
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes-Mitch, posted by MM on July 28, 2001, at 23:20:01
> How suggestive of TLE is scale illusions (like does having them mean almost definitely, or just a possibility)? Zo said her TLE didn't show up on an EEG, so I'm thinking of not even getting one, as she said it's fairly common that TLE doesn't show up. I get those scale illusions maybe a few times a month (I'll be lying in bed, feeling "weird" and feel like my bed is humungous and I'm really small, then a few seconds later my head will feel huge and my bed will feel small. IT alternates between the two, and i KNOW it's not REALLY happening, but it's sort of the sensation of it. It's hard to articulate, but your post sounds like what I get.) Does forgeting the meaning of words while on no meds suggest anything? I ask because as I posted this I had to change a sentence because I wasn't sure what "clench" meant. Just thought I'd ask heh.
Wow, what a trip! There is something to the forgetting meaning of words. I have that too at times. I remember when it was worse (before Neurontin-Depakote, etc.) and I could see a very common word or hear a very common word and repeat it consciously or unconsciously to myself and it would turn into some kind of meaningless mantra of sorts! It was like-is this English?? I have a theory that it may not necessarily be *seizures* or even *auras*, I wonder if it is an *interruption* of the connection between the left and right hemispheres of some kind. Because, when this happens everything is visual, tactile, etc. but the VERBAL *senses* just get all messed up. It is kind of like looking at a word and expecting it to be a picture of sorts. Don't know-it is weird for sure... I don't think it is just plain old "depersonalization" or "derealization". Don't know...Mitch
Posted by MM on July 30, 2001, at 14:16:30
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes-Mitch » MM, posted by Mitch on July 29, 2001, at 13:55:35
Hmm, the right/left brain interruption might make sense in my case. There was even a period of time where one of my pupils was pretty dialated (sp?) and the other was normal. Weird stuff.
Posted by Mitch on July 31, 2001, at 0:49:24
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes-Mitch, posted by MM on July 30, 2001, at 14:16:30
> Hmm, the right/left brain interruption might make sense in my case. There was even a period of time where one of my pupils was pretty dialated (sp?) and the other was normal. Weird stuff.
I never noticed that, but I definitely would get THAT checked out.
Mitch
Posted by MM on July 31, 2001, at 0:54:39
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes-Mitch » MM, posted by Mitch on July 31, 2001, at 0:49:24
It hasn't happend for a while, so I don't know if I can (plus I don't know if anyone would believe me without seeing it). It freaked me out tho.
Posted by Daveman on July 31, 2001, at 2:03:49
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes-Mitch » Mitch, posted by MM on July 31, 2001, at 0:54:39
Hey Friends:
Even the most "normal" people I know have problems like this. Ever heard the joke, "Now, for the next 60 seconds, don't think about pink elephants!" What do you think about for those 60 seconds? Right.....
Some times, you just can't get a musical tune out of your head no matter what you do. Usually, it's a real bad one. Like that Macarena song, I couldn't get it out of my blasted head for weeks!
So let's cut ourselves a little slack on this one:)
Dave
Posted by Mitch on July 31, 2001, at 10:07:02
In reply to Pink Elephants:), posted by Daveman on July 31, 2001, at 2:03:49
> Hey Friends:
>
> Even the most "normal" people I know have problems like this. Ever heard the joke, "Now, for the next 60 seconds, don't think about pink elephants!" What do you think about for those 60 seconds? Right.....
>
> Some times, you just can't get a musical tune out of your head no matter what you do. Usually, it's a real bad one. Like that Macarena song, I couldn't get it out of my blasted head for weeks!
>
> So let's cut ourselves a little slack on this one:)
>
> DaveOh, I agree. It doesn't bother me enough to consider it "distressing". It is just a comical curiousity mainly. I am more interested in how our brain processes musical memories, etc. However, I guess for some folks it really gets bad or quite interesting.
Posted by PattiJo on July 31, 2001, at 12:07:19
In reply to Obsessive Musical Tunes, posted by PattiJo on July 21, 2001, at 17:46:25
> Daveman, I agree that everyone at some time has problems with getting rid of a particular tune in their head for several hours or over a span of a few days--I have experienced them myself over the years. And, they can be troublesome, but usually don't make your life miserable because they only last for a short time. But, when you have constant tunes that change continuously, 24 hrs. a day, seven days a week, over a span of eight months, then something is not right. And believe me, it gets very irritating, it is nothing to make light of, especially if you're living with it. I recently read about a farmer who had music playing in his head for 30 years straight and never told anyone because he was afraid of what people would think. This condition is more than just a few days of having one musical tune going over and over in your head. There may be a link between them, but there is certainly differences in severity.
Posted by lou pilder on July 31, 2001, at 17:56:51
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes-Pink Elephants-Daveman, posted by PattiJo on July 31, 2001, at 12:07:19
> > Daveman, I agree that everyone at some time has problems with getting rid of a particular tune in their head for several hours or over a span of a few days--I have experienced them myself over the years. And, they can be troublesome, but usually don't make your life miserable because they only last for a short time. But, when you have constant tunes that change continuously, 24 hrs. a day, seven days a week, over a span of eight months, then something is not right. And believe me, it gets very irritating, it is nothing to make light of, especially if you're living with it. I recently read about a farmer who had music playing in his head for 30 years straight and never told anyone because he was afraid of what people would think. This condition is more than just a few days of having one musical tune going over and over in your head. There may be a link between them, but there is certainly differences in severity.
Patti, please email me at louelsa@cs.com I have the same 24/7 condition and have 4 years of research that I can share with you. Lou pilder
Posted by Daveman on July 31, 2001, at 23:34:28
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes-Pink Elephants-Daveman, posted by lou pilder on July 31, 2001, at 17:56:51
Patti and Lou:
I certainly would never make light of a problem anyone may have. I was only trying to say that lots of people have this problem, though not to the same extent, so cut yourself some slack. I apologize if I seemed unsympathetic.
Dave
Posted by somebetter on August 1, 2001, at 1:28:34
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes-Pink Elephants-Daveman, posted by lou pilder on July 31, 2001, at 17:56:51
> Patti, please email me at louelsa@cs.com I have the same 24/7 condition and have 4 years of research that I can share with you. Lou pilder
Wait a minute, Lou! Isn't there a way you can share this information with all of us? I know it's a lot to ask. Four years is a long time. I've been looking for help a lot longer than that and haven't been successful, though! I'm thoroughly impressed if you have found much, because I'm certain there isn't much out there. Here at PB is the first place I have ever come across anyone else who had the same problem. Lately, more and more people are showing up with it. It is a maddening phenomenon and it is very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it.
Posted by somebetter on August 1, 2001, at 11:21:49
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes-Pink Elephants-Daveman, posted by somebetter on August 1, 2001, at 1:28:34
> > Patti, please email me at louelsa@cs.com I have the same 24/7 condition and have 4 years of research that I can share with you. Lou pilder
>
> Wait a minute, Lou! Isn't there a way you can share this information with all of us? I know it's a lot to ask. Four years is a long time. I've been looking for help a lot longer than that and haven't been successful, though! I'm thoroughly impressed if you have found much, because I'm certain there isn't much out there. Here at PB is the first place I have ever come across anyone else who had the same problem. Lately, more and more people are showing up with it. It is a maddening phenomenon and it is very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it.
Posted by lou pilder on August 1, 2001, at 11:32:20
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes-Pink Elephants-Daveman, posted by somebetter on August 1, 2001, at 1:28:34
> > Patti, please email me at louelsa@cs.com I have the same 24/7 condition and have 4 years of research that I can share with you. Lou pilder
>
> Wait a minute, Lou! Isn't there a way you can share this information with all of us? I know it's a lot to ask. Four years is a long time. I've been looking for help a lot longer than that and haven't been successful, though! I'm thoroughly impressed if you have found much, because I'm certain there isn't much out there. Here at PB is the first place I have ever come across anyone else who had the same problem. Lately, more and more people are showing up with it. It is a maddening phenomenon and it is very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it.Anyone can call me about the music. I have some very interesting results with my reserch. Call me at 513 858 1704 Lou
Posted by PattiJo on August 1, 2001, at 23:51:20
In reply to Re: Obsessive Musical Tunes-Pink Elephants-Daveman, posted by lou pilder on August 1, 2001, at 11:32:20
>Daveman, you didn't need to apologize, but thanks anyway. I figured that you were just sharing your perspective. I just wanted to share mine :)
Patti
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