![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 23 to 47 of 74. Go back in thread:
Posted by Cam W. on May 31, 2001, at 15:25:19
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification, posted by good4u on May 31, 2001, at 15:07:36
Doesn't work.
Posted by Jane D on May 31, 2001, at 15:38:34
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification, posted by good4u on May 31, 2001, at 15:07:36
> > > I'm not sure on what you base the "dishonesty" bit - I haven't seen Truehope "claim" anything, nor does it seem to be pushing a product.
> > >
> >
> > Deb,
> >
> > I'm a bit confused. On another thread you said that this cost about $120. a month. Aren't you buying this from Truehope?
> >
> > Jane
>
>
> There IS a product which they are selling, 4 sure. I also know, however, that it costs money to create, manufacture, and market a product. And to devote yourself fulltime to a job,cause,project, etc. requires money - quite possibly supported by sales of the product. Who would give the company money for an unproven, non-pharmaceutical-based product? ummm..."no one" is one very-possible answer...I'm trying NOT to be overly idealistic/optimistic about the product, nor overly skeptical - though clearly the desire to believe is stronger. Like everyone else, I'm just anxiously awaiting results of research studies. "TRUEHOPE" is at this point a perfect description of our attitudes regarding the ACTUAL effectiveness of the product.Yet my multivitamin, with almost the same ingredients, costs about two dollars a month. And convincing people to pay huge amounts of money for hope alone has been a profitable business for centuries.
Posted by stjames on May 31, 2001, at 15:47:22
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits » good4u, posted by Jane D on May 31, 2001, at 15:38:34
> Yet my multivitamin, with almost the same ingredients, costs about two dollars a month. And convincing people to pay huge amounts of money for hope alone has been a profitable business for centuries.
james here...
Looking at the ingredients for TRUEHOPE it is just a multivitamin, no more. Why pay $120.00 ?
james
Posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:48:59
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification, posted by Jane D on May 31, 2001, at 14:36:20
> Deb,
>
> I'm a bit confused. On another thread you said that this cost about $120. a month. Aren't you buying this from Truehope?
yes, the price went up slightly - i use 2 bottles a month, so it's now about $140/month. This compares with about $700/mo for my previous meds .
Posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:53:25
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification, posted by good4u on May 31, 2001, at 15:07:36
>I'm trying NOT to be overly idealistic/optimistic about the product, nor overly skeptical - though clearly the desire to believe is stronger
indeed, just imagining that i could get better did wonders for me - i got much better even before i made the switch, just knowing i was going to take action. so maybe it's all placebo - and from my point of view, who cares?
i just couldn't wait any longer for THE ANSWER to appear. if i just kept upping my meds (140mg Prozac, by the way, is over the top), how would i ever know what was left of me?
Posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:56:34
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits » good4u, posted by Jane D on May 31, 2001, at 15:38:34
>
> Yet my multivitamin, with almost the same ingredients, costs about two dollars a month. And convincing people to pay huge amounts of money for hope alone has been a profitable business for centuries.Have you taken a look at the ingredients? Then try to put together the same ingredients at "WalMart"? You can't fit it into a $2 pill; now let's be fair, and compare apples with apples.
Posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:58:57
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by stjames on May 31, 2001, at 15:47:22
> james here...
>
> Looking at the ingredients for TRUEHOPE it is just a multivitamin, no more. Why pay $120.00 ?
>
> jamesdoes anyone in this discussion have all the facts? or any facts? or is it just fun to throw numbers around? i'm with good4u; let's look for positive answers; otherwise, I'd rather take a walk.
Posted by Cam W. on May 31, 2001, at 16:06:35
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:58:57
Deb - The only thing that really differentiates this from any popular multivitamin seems to be a high level of zinc. Every few years the megavitamin proponents come out of the woodwork, make lots of money selling mail order, and skulk back into oblivion, until the next generation comes to spend their hard earned money. The Calgary group also say not to go off of your current meds, so what is the extra benefit, besides fluorescent yellow pee?
Show me the data - Cam
Posted by stjames on May 31, 2001, at 16:16:24
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:58:57
>
> > james here...
> >
> > Looking at the ingredients for TRUEHOPE it is just a multivitamin, no more. Why pay $120.00 ?
> >
> > james
>
>
>
> does anyone in this discussion have all the facts? or any facts? or is it just fun to throw numbers around? i'm with good4u; let's look for positive answers; otherwise, I'd rather take a walk.James here.....
I took these facts (the ingredients) from the TRUEHOPE web page. With minerals and vitamans there really is not a "better" source.
james
Posted by Jane D on May 31, 2001, at 16:59:02
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:58:57
>
> > james here...
> >
> > Looking at the ingredients for TRUEHOPE it is just a multivitamin, no more. Why pay $120.00 ?
> >
> > james
>
>
>
> does anyone in this discussion have all the facts? or any facts? or is it just fun to throw numbers around? i'm with good4u; let's look for positive answers; otherwise, I'd rather take a walk.I think you've just identified why I'm so frustrated. There aren't many facts to argue with here because Truehope isn't providing any. As far as where I got my facts from, I just held up my vitamin bottle (generic - $2 a mo) against the list on the web site. Some difference in amounts. Some difference in ingredients. Nothing on the web site to convince me that those differences mattered.
I don't think anyone is condemning this blindly. We all went and looked after all. But criticizing things that haven't been shown to work IS a positive step towards finding things that do. In fact it's the only way. Why would any company bother to put in all that money on research if they thought they could get our money without it.
I really hope it does work. When they can show that it does I'll rush out with my $140. or even more but until then all the available evidence favors my spending that money on more conventional drugs.
I hope that you will keep reporting your experience here. As anecdotal evidence it is as interesting and useful as the accounts about Prozac or Effexor.
Posted by Sulpicia on May 31, 2001, at 17:25:16
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification, posted by good4u on May 31, 2001, at 15:07:36
> > >
>
>
> Like everyone else, I'm just anxiously awaiting results of research studies.This is precisely the problem: there are NO research studies, not studies long underway, nor being done presently.
We are asked to believe their claims based on anectdotal claims involving tiny numbers of people. This product has
been around now for over a year and yet the group can produce no research results. You are entirely correct that nobody
would fund a study for this product, tho not because it's unproven nor because it's non-pharmaceutical.
The National Institute of Health is one of the largest grantors for research and they certainly do fund studies for unproven
treatments. What sets Truehope's products apart from the others is that researchers can give a reasonable account of why the
agent they want to study should work. For example, it's known that lithium lowers the level of inositol in the body: *if* this
were the mechanism by which it controled mania, it would not be unreasonable to see if giving inositol supplements were an
effective treatment for depression. There are numerous studies on this in fact.
The Truehope people could presumably never get a similar grant because there is no scientific evidence to believe that vitamins
can treat bipolar disorders, depression, ADD/HD, Tourettes Syndrome,schizophrenia, and Autism -- much less with the same formula.Doesn't it make you nervous that the Truehope head honcho, Daniel Stephan, when challenged on this forum to provide peer-reviewed
literature that would support ANY part of his product, had the audacity to cite an article on magnesium and schizophrenia in the American Journal of Psychiatry for 1929 [no typo]?
I should stop before I get worked up...
Be well,
S.
Posted by gilbert on May 31, 2001, at 22:55:19
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification » good4u, posted by Sulpicia on May 31, 2001, at 17:25:16
"Oh we got trouble.....right her in River city....with a capitol "T" and the rhymes with "P" and the stands for Truehope.........sorry I just could resist even the name is like some warm fuzzy new age Elixer sold off the back of a wagon.....I would respect it more if it were titled Untrue Hope or Maybe Hope or White Lie Hope or True Hopelessness, I feel a pyramid scheme coming on.
Gil
Posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 9:44:20
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits » Deb_s, posted by Cam W. on May 31, 2001, at 16:06:35
> Deb - The only thing that really differentiates this from any popular multivitamin seems to be a high level of zinc. Every few years the megavitamin proponents come out of the woodwork, make lots of money selling mail order, and skulk back into oblivion, until the next generation comes to spend their hard earned money. The Calgary group also say not to go off of your current meds, so what is the extra benefit, besides fluorescent yellow pee?
>
> Show me the data - CamI'm not trying to prove anything to anybody. I'm only sharing my experience.
Posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 9:46:45
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits » Deb_s, posted by Cam W. on May 31, 2001, at 16:06:35
> Deb - The only thing that really differentiates this from any popular multivitamin seems to be a high level of zinc. ... The Calgary group also say not to go off of your current meds
And by the way, the statements above are incorrect. But I'm not going to waste anymore of my time on this -- you who wish to become informed, do your own research.
Posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 9:56:38
In reply to Re: Oh we got trouble, posted by gilbert on May 31, 2001, at 22:55:19
> "Oh we got trouble.....right her in River city....with a capitol "T" and the rhymes with "P" and the stands for Truehope.........sorry I just could resist even the name is like some warm fuzzy new age Elixer sold off the back of a wagon.....I would respect it more if it were titled Untrue Hope or Maybe Hope or White Lie Hope or True Hopelessness, I feel a pyramid scheme coming on.
>Now I know why they call this psycho-babble. Bye, bye, folks!
Posted by Cam W. on June 1, 2001, at 10:17:03
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 9:46:45
> And by the way, the statements above are incorrect. But I'm not going to waste anymore of my time on this -- you who wish to become informed, do your own research.Deb - Funny, I talked to a prominent psychiatrist who went to school with the head researcher in Calgary. He said that after some initial excitement, the randomized controlled trial is not going quite as they expected. Now, they are telling those who want to try it to stay on their meds. They are using some people with bipolar disorder, who are having breakthrough episodes; but these people are still having breakthrough episodes after a couple of months on the vitamin treatment. Also, I have personally talked to 4 people (one I have been following for more than 5 years) who had been trying the vitamins for periods for 3 to 6 months. All, at separate meetings, have said that the only thing the vitamins did was lighten their pockets. I realize that this is not a scienctific representation, but it does make one wonder...
The problem with doing research on bipolar disorder is that the condition is chronic and relapsing. The natural progression of the disease is punctuated by episodes of mania and/or depression, interspersed with varying periods of "normal" functioning. With each episode, the next episode comes sooner, is greater in severity, and lasts longer, because of a kindling mechanism. Therefore, one needs to monitor relapses prior to therapy and compare them to the relapse incidence on the new therapy. It would be incredibly unethical to take someone off their medication, even if the medication offered partial relief, and place this person on an unproven treatment. Because of the risks involved, due to kindling, this kind of research would never be approved by any ethics committee.
Furthermore, if you have bipolar disorder and stop your medication, you may not relapse in a week or in a month, but the chances of relapsing within the next couple of years (depending on the severity of the disorder) are better than 90%.
There is my research, may I see yours? - Cam
Posted by kid47 on June 1, 2001, at 10:32:34
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 9:44:20
Hi Deb. Boy we certainly can be a jaded & cynical bunch. I think because so many of us, like yourself, have had such disappointment with meds (&docs) that promise a magic bullet & deliver only more misery, we tend to be wary of (& justly so) something that appears to be to good to be True.(sorry for the lame attempt at humor). But I don't argue with success. If this particular regimine is working for you (for whatever reason) I congratulate you & thank you for sharing your story . Just like the "approved" meds & therapy, it may work for some & be a disaster for others. I would like to believe that the negative comments posted here are motivated by concerns that someone less "experienced" with this circus of mental health treatment, might jump at this without investigating it. Of course that is potentially a problem with any type treatment discussed on this list.
Anyway, I wish you continued success & personally would be very interested in being informed of your progress. Good luck. Take care.
kid
>
> I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody. I'm only sharing my experience.
Posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 10:39:00
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE -Deb-You Go Girl!!, posted by kid47 on June 1, 2001, at 10:32:34
> Hi Deb. Boy we certainly can be a jaded & cynical bunch. I think because so many of us, like yourself, have had such disappointment with meds (&docs) that promise a magic bullet & deliver only more misery, we tend to be wary of (& justly so) something that appears to be to good to be True.(sorry for the lame attempt at humor). But I don't argue with success. If this particular regimine is working for you (for whatever reason) I congratulate you & thank you for sharing your story . Just like the "approved" meds & therapy, it may work for some & be a disaster for others. I would like to believe that the negative comments posted here are motivated by concerns that someone less "experienced" with this circus of mental health treatment, might jump at this without investigating it. Of course that is potentially a problem with any type treatment discussed on this list.
>
> Anyway, I wish you continued success & personally would be very interested in being informed of your progress. Good luck. Take care.
>
> kid
>
Thanks, kid! I admit I was getting rather down by this thread - even though i know i shouldn't take it "personally" - it's been a very long row to hoe, and I'm getting mighty tired. I really appreciate the encouragement. I get so frustrated, because the whole mental health thing seems like such a crap shoot. And if this doesn't work, what next?
Posted by gilbert on June 1, 2001, at 10:39:05
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits » Deb_s, posted by Cam W. on June 1, 2001, at 10:17:03
Deb,
Sorry don't mean tp pile on it just seemed like a little humor injected would help. Please forgive me and my sarcasm but after 30 years of trying anything and everthing to get well, macrobitics, vegetarian diet, gary Null, and on and on and on....I lean a little more toward conventional Pharmacology.......And Oh yea by the way they do call it Pycho Babble because some of us are Pyscho....I relish in the thought of my pycho-ness....normal people are so boring......I hope you keep on expressing your opinion and don't get scared off by a little spirited debate. This board is fun to read and very informaative because we don't all agree...whata boring place it would be if we did.
Gil
Posted by cole on June 1, 2001, at 21:14:04
In reply to Re: Deb not rying to prove anything, posted by gilbert on June 1, 2001, at 10:39:05
Deb,
I haven't been around much recently, but since I had asked you to keep us updated a while ago I wanted to thank you for posting your experiences. I know it must be tough with people debating your treatment choice. I honestly believe that we all need to do what makes each one of us well, and no one treatment is going to help everyone. I think that there is validity in using supplementation, especially with the crap most people eat these days :) I've had very effective natural treatments from a naturopath for problems ranging from infections and reflux disease, but these therapies don't have the reams of paper in support because there aren't drug companies to back the research. Luckily places like Bastyr University (a naturopathic medical school) and the University of Washington are teaming up to do randomized studies on many of the tried and true natural medical treatments.
When I discussed the role of supplementation and natural therapies in mental health with my pdoc, she seemed really supportive. She has her PhD in neuroscience and is an MD, and she admitted "the naturopaths have so much knowledge that we never get in traditional medical training". She feels that proper nutrients play a role because we need them to synthesize the proteins in our bodies, and if we aren't utilizing the nutrients correctly it makes perfect sense that illness would result. Of course this doesn't mean that supplementation would be the answer, but it could definitely play a role.
Anyhoo, I'm glad this stuff is working out for you. Stick with it if you're feeling better.
cole
Posted by Truth is hard to find on June 1, 2001, at 22:59:29
In reply to Re: Deb not rying to prove anything, posted by cole on June 1, 2001, at 21:14:04
It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that there is any "resarch study" being done at Harvard University regarding the vitamin/mineral supplement being promoted by the Synergy Group of Canada (website "Truehope").
The supplement is marketed by them as "EM Power+"I state this because:
I attended a formal presentation by "The Synergy Group of Canada" (I shall refer to them as "Truehope")
on May 9, 2001 (as I stated in a note yesterday).
The "Truehope" speakers were Mr. Anthony Stephan and Mr. David Hardy (the company founders).
This presentation was at the McLean Hospital, a Harvard Medical School teaching & research hospital.Also speaking was Dr. Andrew Stoll, Director of the Psychopharmacology Research Laboratory of McLean Hospital.
NO ONE mentioned or claimed that there had been, or is curently, ANY research being done or planned at Harvard on these supplements or the equivalent.
Dr. Andrew Stoll would almost certainly be aware if a study were underway at Harvard.
The Truehope representatives would certainly have mentioned such a study as part of their self-promotion.Dr. Stoll express interest in creating such a study.
HOWERVER, he stated that approval to conduct such a study may be denied for several reasons:
1. The Truehope daily dosage of 4 of the minerals are above what he noted to be the "Upper Limit of Safety"
Most significan is Magnesium, where their dosage is about 3 times what he noted as the "Upper Limit".
The others were Zinc (200% of UL), Selenium (200% of UL), and Copper (120% of UL).
2. He also expressed concern about his hospital approving a study requiring patients to stop their medication.Note: the context of this presentation was a meeting of the Boston chapter of the Manic Depressive and Depressive Association.
It was not sponsored or supported by the Harvard Medical School.
The nature of the presentation by "Truehope" was "promotional".
Of the audience (about 200 persons) some expressed HOPE for relief from their suffereing, but many expressed great dissatisfaction with the presentation.Dr. Stoll did not recommend or support use of the Truehope formula,
and among the problems he noted with the information presented by Truehope were:
a. Placebo effect not accounted for / desire of the participant to want the supplement to work
b. Lack of systematic diagnosis of persons taking the supplements
c. "Drop outs" were not counted
d. Lack of "double blind" nature of reporting of results
e. Questionable safety of long term use of the supplements
f. Expense of the supplements.
g. Reported gastointestinal side effects.I should note that Dr. Stoll did not dismiss the POSSIBILITY of the supplements having an effect
on manic-depression (the focus of his interest), but the basic "scientific summary" of the
presentation was "it will be great if it works, but we have no credible data, only SELECTED
testimonials, to support that conclusion".
Posted by Truth is hard to find on June 2, 2001, at 0:02:42
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 9:46:45
I have spent a little time evaluating what appeared to me to be a rather hight cost for E.M.POWER+
as quoted by the Synergy Group of Canada for their supplement: basically US $150.00/month.The results I what I find: purchasing the equivalent would probably cost your abour $40.00/month
The E.M.POWER+ Ingredient List contains (1) Vitamins (2) Minerals (3) "Proprietary Blend"
(1) The Vitamin daily dosage (32 pills), when compared to a widely available commercial product (Theragran-M, by Bristol-Myers) works out to almost exactly 4 times the amount in each of the "Theragran" tablets.
(2) The Mineral daily dosages are mostly substantially higher than the "Theragran" product (including Theragran's "Vitamin/Mineral" supplement)
(3) The non-mineral "proprietary blend" (Ginko, Grape Seed, etc.) dosages are not stated on their web site, but I have been told by a research pharmacologist who has seen the data that the dosage level is so low as to be "negligible". I would state this Dr.'s name, but I have not asked his permission to quote this.
Cost evaluation:
(1) The equivalent vitamins purchased as "Theragran" would cost approximately $6.00 to $8.00/month.
This is computed: (30 days * 4 capsules * $.06/capsule)(2) The minerals, as priced from Web sources, would cost approx $20.00 month
This is based on sample prices for "Mega Multi Mineral formula" from Solaray.
This is computed: (30 days * 8 capsules * $.08/capsule)
Please note that the following minerals in both "Truehope" and "Solaray's" products include the AMINO ACID CHELATED form of the mineral: Calcium, Iron, Manganese, Chromium, Molybdenum, Boron, Vanadiuim, and Nickel.
As chelated forms of the minerals, they appear to be more expensive than those minerals found in "standard" vitamin/mineral supplements.(3) As the information I have been given about the Ginko, etc. is that the dosage levels are very low, I can only state that the cost must also be pretty low....
So, the "equivalent" cost"
..Theragran vitamins (or equiv).........$ 8.00
..Minerals (chelelated)......................$20.00
..Ginko, extra Vit B12/C etc.(estimate!)$12.00
Estimated Probable total............ $40.00/monthPills per day
....The Truehope formula requires 32 capsules/day
....An "equivalent" works out to about 20 or so pills/day
........(4 regular vitamin pills)
........(8 mineral pills)
........(4 "extra" vitamin pills: C,B12, etc.)
........("x" "herbal supplement pills)
When I confronted a "Truehope" representative about the comparatively hight cost of their product, they advised me that their's had a very high "bio-availabilty" rating. However, no one has been able to give me any evidence of either direct or comparative measurement of that!NOTE: I AM NOT RECOMMENDING TAKING THIS MUCH "STUFF". PARTICULARYLY SOME MINERAL DOSES IN HIGH LEVELS HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO CAUSE PROBLEMS, AS WELL AS VITAMIN A IN DOSES THIS HIGH
FURTHERMORE, IF ONE'S LIVER OR KIDNEY FUNCTION IS IMPARIED, HIGH DOSES MAY (I UNDERSTAND) CAUSE PROBLEMS.NOR AM I RECOMMENDING ANY BRAND OF VITAMIN OR MINERAL SUPPLIER! THOSE NAMES PROVIDED ARE FOR REFERENCE ONLY, SHOULD YOU CARE TO VALIDATE MY INFORMATION.
Posted by Ron Hill on June 2, 2001, at 9:19:34
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE, posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 9:39:45
Deb,
I personally appreciate your posts regarding your experience with the pig pills. It's antidotal, but worthwhile none-the-less. Please continue to keep us abreast of your continued successes and/or setbacks.
-- Ron
--------------------------------------------
> I'm with you 100% !!!
>
> First of all, saying it's a "vitamin pill, available at WalMart" shows an extremely closed mind on the subject. There is a great deal more to it than that.
>
> Two, I have heard that Harvard is conducting a study, and have not been able to "confirm" it, although presumably it will be published when it is completed. I surfed a bit at Harvard's research site and it seems like they're conducting about a gazillion studies, so I reached no conclusions.
>
> The statement by Sulpicia, "I can guarantee you that Truehope stuff is not being tested at Harvard." What's with that????
>
> I have been treated for depression for about forever, and with meds the past 8 years or so. Indeed, for short periods of time, the antidepressants helped enormously. Then not so much. It's been a hell of a roller coaster. Then I hit menopause (I'm 51), so the doctors added in Synthroid (my family doctor said it wasn't necessary, but my shrink said it was a good idea, so just in case ... ), and PremPro (seemed like a good idea at the time; was rather a coin-toss decision).
>
> By January 2001, I was taking:
>
> Wellbutrin 450mg/day
> Prozac 140mg/day
> PremPro 0.625mg /2.5mg 1/day
> Synthroid 0.025mg/day
>
> And just barely getting by. I didn't know who I was anymore. No energy, very little short-term memory, and ziltch confidence about the future. Etc. (you all can fill in the blanks). Since the meds weren't working, the next step was going to be ECT.
>
> I told my shrink I was going to try the "pig pill" program. She gave me all sorts of caveats, but distinctly missing was ANY looking, whatsoever, at the facts about the program itself. Assuming, since it seemed too good to be true, that it was, she put on her automatic allopathic physician hat and essentially gave me the message that I
> had no ability to make decisions about myself. I haven't been back to her since (I can't afford it, for one thing, because my health insurance won't pay for "outpatient" mental health visits).
>
> I posted some of this on:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010302/msgs/55836.html
>
> I started taking E.M. Power, a multi-vitamin and mineral supplement, on February 4th, and weaned off my medications week-by-week. I did not have any of the dramatic withdrawal symptoms I had had on other occasions. I started napping less, remembering more, and finding pleasure in life again.
>
> I've been gradually improving. I hit a rocky spot these last few weeks when I decided to eliminate the hormones and thyroid medication.
> I now hot flash about every 3 minutes (seems like, anyway) and feel pretty logy (that's midwestern for sluggish). I still don't nap during the day anymore (for at least 3 years, I couldn't get through the day without a long nap).
> I'm functioning very well in contrast to six months ago. I'm more emotional, but it's under control. I don't feel so helpless, although
> I admit it's still scary.
>
> Yes, my case is anecdotal. I'm not advocating the "pig pills" one way or the other. I'm doing much better, and am glad I took this leap of faith. Should I not speak up, because there is not a published, double-blind study out there? How many permutations of individuals, chemicals, drugs, vitamins, minerals, and combinations thereof are there in the world? How long would it take to do a double-blind study of all those permutations? We would have to wait for someone to "think of" a possible solution, then test that particular solution, then try again ...
>
> I am not going to live that long. I admire and appreciate the wonder of antidepressants and other medications, but I do not trust the drug companies.
>
> I started on "pig pills" for two simple reasons:
>
> 1. I felt I had run out of other options, and had nothing to lose.
>
> 2. My husband was a pig farmer, and he knows what an enormous effect chemicals can have on living organisms.
>
> The theory behind the "pig pills" is that the brain needs certain ingredients to do what it has to do, that some people need more of some than others, and that our diet is not providing what we need in the quantities needed. Our farming methods take some of these nutrients out of the soil, without replacing them.
>
> We have a lot to learn about how it all works.
>
> P.S. "Facts" about the "pig pill" program for anyone interested:
>
> cost is about $70/bottle, 2 bottles/month needed initially (32 pills a day - gulp!)
>
> you are assigned a "personal assistant", a real human being who is with you all the way (not a sales person, but someone with experience in this program). I like mine a lot. we keep in touch mostly by email, but we've also talked on the phone a few times. he's got four little kids and his wife has become involved in this, too.
>
> you keep a daily log of symptoms per DSM-IV checklist, and send it weekly to your assistant, who tracks your progress
>
> site is www.truehope.com and yes, it's corny. but just as the information given doesn't prove that there's anything valid here, it doesn't prove that it's NOT valid, either.
Posted by stjames on June 2, 2001, at 12:20:28
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by Truth is hard to find on June 2, 2001, at 0:02:42
> NOTE: I AM NOT RECOMMENDING TAKING THIS MUCH "STUFF". PARTICULARYLY SOME MINERAL DOSES IN HIGH LEVELS HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO CAUSE PROBLEMS, AS WELL AS VITAMIN A IN DOSES THIS HIGH
> FURTHERMORE, IF ONE'S LIVER OR KIDNEY FUNCTION IS IMPARIED, HIGH DOSES MAY (I UNDERSTAND) CAUSE PROBLEMS.James here....
Good points ! Vitamin A is TOXIC in a high enough dose. Given that TRUE HOPE has such high levels, what happens when you also eat food, which is full of vits and mins ? Possible toxic levels, thats what. The minerals and Vit A are of concern as they can be toxic if you take too much. Doing some quick math, if you take the suggested dose of TRUE HOPE and eat there is a good chance you will be at a dangerous level for vit A and some mins. If you are a vegan, even more so.
Please keep posting Deb_s, in the several years I have been here several have stopped meds and started whatever alternative treatment and we tend to never hear from them again. I can remember one who came back to report that they did not do well and were back on meds. Never heard from the others, despite how convinced they were, so I suspect they did not do well or they would of told us so.
Keep in mind mental illness is measured in montths and years, given its changable nature, so the true test is not a day or a week or a month of doing well.
James
Posted by Elizabeth on June 2, 2001, at 14:23:33
In reply to The issue of Harvard research on EM Power+ , posted by Truth is hard to find on June 1, 2001, at 22:59:29
> I should note that Dr. Stoll did not dismiss the POSSIBILITY of the supplements having an effect
> on manic-depression (the focus of his interest), but the basic "scientific summary" of the
> presentation was "it will be great if it works, but we have no credible data, only SELECTED
> testimonials, to support that conclusion".I don't know about this Truehope stuff (haven't been following the thread), but Stoll most certainly is very well aware of the efficacy of *some* "natural" remedies for mood disorders. (He's "that fish oil guy.")
There has been a lot of research at McLean recently attempting to determine which "food supplements" really work and which ones are just scams. There might be more info on this at their website (www.mcleanhospital.org).
-elizabeth
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