![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 50 to 74 of 74. Go back in thread:
Posted by Elizabeth on June 3, 2001, at 20:53:45
In reply to Re: The issue of Harvard research on EM Power+ , posted by SLS on June 2, 2001, at 16:10:56
> This is sort of a tangent, but some recent work into the effects of rapid tryptophan depletion has repeated older work that demonstrates that it can precipitate depression in some vulnerable individuals and reverse the therapeutic response to antidepressants.
I remember reading about the older research. I wonder if that is an effective test for depression (or for a particular subtype of depression).
-e
Posted by Elizabeth on June 3, 2001, at 20:55:00
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by AMenz on June 2, 2001, at 18:02:54
> I tried the fish oil which made me extremely hyper almost hypomanic at smaller doses than Stoll administered to his group. I don't regret it, even if it did not work out.
Did you try even smaller doses still?
IMO, any drug that can trigger mania should be investigated as a possible antidepressant.
-elizabeth
Posted by stjames on June 3, 2001, at 23:38:23
In reply to tryptophan depletion challenge » SLS, posted by Elizabeth on June 3, 2001, at 20:53:45
> > This is sort of a tangent, but some recent work into the effects of rapid tryptophan depletion has repeated older work that demonstrates that it can precipitate depression in some vulnerable individuals and reverse the therapeutic response to antidepressants.
>
> I remember reading about the older research. I wonder if that is an effective test for depression (or for a particular subtype of depression).
>
> -eJames here....
The depletion challenge that I know of was a military discovery and not just with trypto but all aminos. They were trying to find min. requirements for nutrition. They found that is 20-30 % of recuits, significant depression happened after this challange. At that time 20-30 % was the rate of clinical depression reported in the general population. However it is not a 2 way thing, giving depressives more aminos (provided they are not malnurished) does not make depression remit. I see it as depressives have a misregulation of these systems and are more sensitive to changes in these systems. It is not a simple question of "not enough" aminos.
James
Posted by Lorraine on June 4, 2001, at 9:57:09
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge, posted by stjames on June 3, 2001, at 23:38:23
There was also that drug or diet they did that caused tryptophan deficiency. Can't remember more--part of the disease. Anyway why not do a tryptophan challenge--just take it and see if it changes anything. (5HTP is all you can get now). I did this challenge--it didn't help. But I new that within a couple of days. (I know maybe it should have taken 6 weeks for it to have an effect, but these aminos and amino precursors have strong effects with me and I feel them right away.) I have also tried tyrosine, phenylalmine, glutamine, gaba, choline. They all have immediate and fairly profound effects on me. In a pinch, I would take tyrosine, phenylalmine and glutamine in a combo to make it through a few days between meds. The gaba I still take and give to my son (13) when he is too anxious to sleep before an exam. The choline, amazingly enough, seems to have stopped my "skin picking" (eating cuticles) behaviour so I think I'll continue it.
Posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2001, at 10:17:26
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by AMenz on June 2, 2001, at 18:02:54
Amez,
It seems to me that there are two issues being raised in this thread: 1) Efficacy of Pig Pills; 2) Cost of Pig Pills. With respect to the later, I think the valid point being made by other posters such as stjames and Truth is hard to find, is that many good chelated multi-vitamin/multi-mineral products are available on the market FOR A LOT LESS MONEY. The inordinately high price of the Pig Pills leads me to question the altruistic motivations portrayed by Pig Pill Company spokespersons.
With regard to efficacy, IMHO various supplements, in conjunction with my meds, are beneficial for treatment of my BP II condition. As one example of the several supplements I take, a good chelated magnesium supplement taken just prior to bedtime improves my sleep quality. However, I personally am not willing to pay $140 per month for Pig Pills when I can buy the same quality of products elsewhere for a fraction of the cost.
That's my two cents worth on this topic. This and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee most anywhere in the US. (I'm not talking Starbucks and other "designer" coffees. I'm talking straight out of the pot, restaurant coffee.)
-- Ron
------------------------------------------------
> I am willing to try it.
>
> After all the costs of treatment at present (ineffective I might add) is about $12,000 a year. If it doesn't work you lost 150 dollars but have the satisfaction of leaving no stone unturned.
>
> When you are treatment resistant, you must seek answers. This doesn't seem totally off the wall and at least is being studied.
>
> I tried the fish oil which made me extremely hyper almost hypomanic at smaller doses than Stoll administered to his group. I don't regret it, even if it did not work out.
>
> > > NOTE: I AM NOT RECOMMENDING TAKING THIS MUCH "STUFF". PARTICULARYLY SOME MINERAL DOSES IN HIGH LEVELS HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO CAUSE PROBLEMS, AS WELL AS VITAMIN A IN DOSES THIS HIGH
> > > FURTHERMORE, IF ONE'S LIVER OR KIDNEY FUNCTION IS IMPARIED, HIGH DOSES MAY (I UNDERSTAND) CAUSE PROBLEMS.
> >
> > James here....
> >
> > Good points ! Vitamin A is TOXIC in a high enough dose. Given that TRUE HOPE has such high levels, what happens when you also eat food, which is full of vits and mins ? Possible toxic levels, thats what. The minerals and Vit A are of concern as they can be toxic if you take too much. Doing some quick math, if you take the suggested dose of TRUE HOPE and eat there is a good chance you will be at a dangerous level for vit A and some mins. If you are a vegan, even more so.
> >
> > Please keep posting Deb_s, in the several years I have been here several have stopped meds and started whatever alternative treatment and we tend to never hear from them again. I can remember one who came back to report that they did not do well and were back on meds. Never heard from the others, despite how convinced they were, so I suspect they did not do well or they would of told us so.
> >
> > Keep in mind mental illness is measured in montths and years, given its changable nature, so the true test is not a day or a week or a month of doing well.
> >
> > James
Posted by Elizabeth on June 4, 2001, at 16:29:01
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge, posted by Lorraine on June 4, 2001, at 9:57:09
> There was also that drug or diet they did that caused tryptophan deficiency. Can't remember more--part of the disease. Anyway why not do a tryptophan challenge--just take it and see if it changes anything. (5HTP is all you can get now). I did this challenge--it didn't help.
I wouldn't expect 5-HTP to help anyway, certainly not immediately. Tryptophan is probably an effective AD in some depressions, apparently the same types that are affected by TDC, although it's highly debatable whether it acts more rapidly than TCAs. (Catecholamine precursors, such as tyrosine, may have more rapid effects.) Addition of another drug to reduce peripheral metabolism may increase the effect of tryptophan.
Some reports have found that TDC has effects in bulimia nervosa, autism, aggression, drug addiction, panic disorder, and cluster B personality disorders as well as some depressions. Subtypes of depression noted to be affected include SAD and depression associated with the above conditions.
Response to TDC may predict response to serotonergic ADs such as SSRIs and MAOIs. Also, studies have indicated that TCAs and sleep deprivation may be more effective for nonresponders or partial responders to SSRIs.
> I have also tried tyrosine, phenylalmine, glutamine, gaba, choline. They all have immediate and fairly profound effects on me.
Can you describe the effects of each of these and how much you use? At least a couple of them are not supposed to have noticeable effects when used by themselves (for reasons related to metabolism -- which can of course vary among individuals).
-elizabeth
Posted by Steeler Tookahn on June 4, 2001, at 17:28:29
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on June 4, 2001, at 16:29:01
I participated in a Tryptophan depletion study. It was done at the Clinical Neuroscience Research Unit, a research unit affiliated with Yale University, in New Haven CT. For several days we ate a diet deficient in tryptophan and then we were given a drink loaded with amino acids (essential and otherwise) but with no tryptophan. The depression most of us experienced was profound. I was immobilized –they watch you every second, so you’re not in danger. After a certain amount of time we were given a large dose of intravenous tryptophan. This usually had the effect of reversing the effects, for some people, even to feeling better than before the experiment began. I had an anomalous reaction and felt worse after the tryptophan. One of the researchers explained to me that occasionally the rapid “jolt” of tryptophan that we received seemed to trigger some sort of “braking” mechanism, so the body actually lowered the serum level of tryptophan temporarily. It only lasted about an hour.
Unfortunately, I don’t know if the study answered any questions about who might be more susceptible to a reduction in tryptophan –what depressive symptoms might indicate a more severe response and therefore, possibly, be most helped by tryptophan.
From what I saw, nearly all of the patients suffering from depression had their symptoms exacerbated by the test. A few did not. Medical students were used as a control group to study the effects on a depression-free population. Nearly none of them seemed to be bothered by the test –other than upset stomach and a few headaches. One of the students I got to know was quiet the whole day and I finally asked him what was the matter. He said, “I took that test yesterday and it was horrible. Now I know what you people go through”.
That really struck me. It’s as if the test could precipitate a depressant effect in those who might be predisposed. It held out a lot of hope that biological markers would soon be found and “types” of depression would be uncovered. This study was done in the late 80’s and unfortunately we don’t seem to have come very far in that area.
At some point, if I can find it, I’ll post a link, or the the actual abstract, of the study.
Posted by SLS on June 4, 2001, at 21:03:55
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on June 4, 2001, at 16:29:01
Hi Elizabeth.
> I wouldn't expect 5-HTP to help anyway, certainly not immediately. Tryptophan is probably an effective AD in some depressions, apparently the same types that are affected by TDC, although it's highly debatable whether it acts more rapidly than TCAs. (Catecholamine precursors, such as tyrosine, may have more rapid effects.) Addition of another drug to reduce peripheral metabolism may increase the effect of tryptophan.
Is it your belief that 5-HTP is less likely to produce a benefit than is tryptophan?I don't know how often either of these substances, when used alone, act well as antidepressants. However, when I was growing up ;-), 5-HTP was considered to be the more potent of the two as an adjunct to antidepressants and as a biological probe to assess serotonergic function and HPA reactivity. There was generally more concern regarding the precipitation of serotonin syndrome with the use of 5-HTP than there was with tryptophan. In reviewing the literature, I was able to find some studies that demonstrate that the use of a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor significantly enhances some of the effects of 5-HTP. I don't know about tryptophan.
van Praag was a smart son-of-a-gun.
Oh, check this out. The Discovery Channel is having a show about body-dysmorphic disorder. It looks interesting.
10:02 PM
Bye...
- Scott
Posted by Elizabeth on June 4, 2001, at 22:44:43
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge, posted by Steeler Tookahn on June 4, 2001, at 17:28:29
> One of the researchers explained to me that occasionally the rapid “jolt” of tryptophan that we received seemed to trigger some sort of “braking” mechanism, so the body actually lowered the serum level of tryptophan temporarily. It only lasted about an hour.
That seems likely. There are lots of compensatory mechanisms like this, in the brain and other systems (notably the cardiovascular).
In depressed patients who are treated with sleep deprivation, there is often a relapse the day after, when the patient wakes up (IIRC). Tryptophan depletion can attenuate this -- probably a result of adaptations made to compensate for the TP depletion.
> Unfortunately, I don’t know if the study answered any questions about who might be more susceptible to a reduction in tryptophan –what depressive symptoms might indicate a more severe response and therefore, possibly, be most helped by tryptophan.
Tryptophan doesn't have a great reputation as an AD; however, most clinical trials compared it to imipramine. I don't know of any head-to-head trials of tryptophan vs. fluoxetine. TDC does have some predictive value in that responders seem to be more likely to respond to serotonergic or mixed monoaminergic action ADs than to nonserotonergic ones. My suspicion is that SSRIs are probably more effective than tryptophan in TDC responders. But how to find out without using drug company money (which, IMO, would hopelessly bias such a study)?
> From what I saw, nearly all of the patients suffering from depression had their symptoms exacerbated by the test. A few did not. Medical students were used as a control group to study the effects on a depression-free population. Nearly none of them seemed to be bothered by the test –other than upset stomach and a few headaches.
My guess is that the medical students were screened and those with a history of depression were ruled out.
> One of the students I got to know was quiet the whole day and I finally asked him what was the matter. He said, “I took that test yesterday and it was horrible. Now I know what you people go through”.
These people -- those who haven't been depressed but who respond to TDC -- are, as you surmise, believed to be at risk for or predisposed to depression. I wonder if that guy had a family history of mood or anxiety disorders, alcoholism, etc.
I sort of think it would be neat if all medical students were subjected to this. It wouldn't have an effect on all of them, but it probably would on a lot, and the others would get to witness it firsthand in their classmates. An excellent educational opportunity. (Presumably med students who were on ADs or had a history of depression would be ruled out.)
> It held out a lot of hope that biological markers would soon be found and “types” of depression would be uncovered.
Yeah. There's too little interest in that sort of research now. Today it's all about getting big research grants from drug companies. It seems like the medical research community has given up on finding truly novel treatments or understanding how to predict what treatment will work for whom, and the focus is mostly on developing new drugs that do the same thing with fewer side effects.
There have been a lot of studies like the one you describe. Do you remember the names of any of the researchers, or the research centre (hospital, university, drug company, etc.)?
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on June 4, 2001, at 23:03:30
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge » Elizabeth, posted by SLS on June 4, 2001, at 21:03:55
> Is it your belief that 5-HTP is less likely to produce a benefit than is tryptophan?
I'm not sure. There're reasons to believe either. Overall I think you'd probably be better off with an SSRI or MAOI, though, if you have severe depression. Precursors have been found to be good augmentors.
> I don't know how often either of these substances, when used alone, act well as antidepressants. However, when I was growing up ;-), 5-HTP was considered to be the more potent of the two as an adjunct to antidepressants and as a biological probe to assess serotonergic function and HPA reactivity.
"Back in my day..." :-)
> There was generally more concern regarding the precipitation of serotonin syndrome with the use of 5-HTP than there was with tryptophan. In reviewing the literature, I was able to find some studies that demonstrate that the use of a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor significantly enhances some of the effects of 5-HTP. I don't know about tryptophan.
Yeah, that's a problem that comes into play with both 5-HT and 5-HTP: peripheral metabolism.
> van Praag was a smart son-of-a-gun.
Agreed. He practised what is sometimes known as "pharmacological dissection," which has been a fruitful and underutilised form of psychiatric research.
> Oh, check this out. The Discovery Channel is having a show about body-dysmorphic disorder. It looks interesting.
How was it?
-elizabeth
Posted by Lorraine on June 5, 2001, at 2:35:29
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on June 4, 2001, at 16:29:01
{ I wouldn't expect 5-HTP to help anyway, certainly not immediately.}
Why not? It's a precursor to trytophan, isn't it?
{TDC}
What is TDC?
> > I have also tried tyrosine, phenylalmine, glutamine, gaba, choline. They all have immediate and fairly profound effects on me.
Tyrosine is a real puppy upper, but can cause me to hyperventilate. Phenylalamine makes me feel "pressure". It's a wierd but uncomfortable feeling for me. (Doesn't it metabolize to PEA?) Glutamine is another puppy upper for me although not as strong as Tyrosine. Once between meds I took Tyrosine, Phenylalamine and Glutamine together (I think about 1 gm each 2x day) and I made it through a funeral trip--but not that well. GABA sedates me. Choline, oddly enough, has stopped me from biting my fingernails and cuticles. I feel the effects of these within an hour. My exact doses were taken from thewayup.com. But I don't think I could tolerate as much as she recommended. I think these things can be potent. That fellow who is concerned with panic disorders (Shapiro? --something like that recommends acetyline precusors, which I think means choline. Anyway, everyone's mileage does vary. My pdoc, who encouraged this experimentation with the precursors, was not surprised that I responded to them so quickly and strongly, although he said not everyone does. Priscilla Slagle (thewayup.com) notes very quick reactions to these--within the hour. And the woman who wrote The Diet Cure (Julia Ross) notes the same quick response time as well. The 5HTP made me very sleepy. I actually got a prescription to tryptophan, but passed on it given my reaction to 5HTP.
Posted by libberty on September 10, 2003, at 19:09:17
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by AMenz on June 2, 2001, at 18:02:54
HI,
I have been taking truehope EMPower for 4 mos and am doing well. I hoped to talk to anyone else who also takes these suppliments.libberty
Posted by HenryO on September 11, 2003, at 4:21:23
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by libberty on September 10, 2003, at 19:09:17
I have taken them on and off for awhile. I can't tell if it does anything. I don't take the recomended 18 capsules a day, that is too rough on my digestion. Do you believe they are helping you? How much do you take?
Posted by libberty on September 11, 2003, at 17:20:53
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by HenryO on September 11, 2003, at 4:21:23
WEll considering that each time I used to go off meds, I was very ill in days, I am doing extraordinarily well. I take 18 capsules every day and I use the soy protein shakes each morning. I always take them with food and I use some pepcid AC if I get any upset stomach, but I have had gastro reflux for a few years now.
I feel like this is really working well except one problem I continue to have is insomnia so I take a little dose of remeron or tegretol for the time being til I get thru the protracted withdrawals.
Are you still on meds?
dee
Posted by HenryO on September 12, 2003, at 1:51:00
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by libberty on September 11, 2003, at 17:20:53
Yes, I take Lamictal and I'm staying on it.
I can't stomach 18 of those capsules a day (maybe things would be better if I could), nor do I want to find out how ugly it would be to go off my meds again. I have had all I care to of being med free. Without something strong helping me, my depression is extremely painful.
I take Omegabrite and some of the Truehope stuff but I won't give up my meds. I am about to dust off my SAD light for the winter season. I use what ever I can, but I am also sticking with medication. That is just from my experience of feeling great for a while then pulling back from my medication and a few months later getting hammered.
Medication is five times better at preventing depression than it is at curring it.
Two questions:
What do you mean, "I use the soy protein shakes each morning." Is that something else they sell?
What are you withdrawing from?
Posted by libberty on September 12, 2003, at 18:09:51
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by HenryO on September 12, 2003, at 1:51:00
HI
I agree, do what is necessary to stay well, I just wasn't having luck staying well on medications so I was willing to come off them. I was diagnosed bipolar1 with psychotic features in 1994. I was taking 400 mg tegretol, 20 mg celexa, 15mg remeron and had been taking .5mg klonopin for sleep.
The soy protein I buy at a health food store locally, it is useful for withdrawal symptoms that feel like the flu. I use vegefuel.dee
Posted by HenryO on September 13, 2003, at 3:24:09
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by libberty on September 12, 2003, at 18:09:51
Have you stopped meds completely?
You are still having withdrawal symptoms, how long has it been since you have taken any drugs?
How long usually until your disease returns when you go off your meds?
Do the true hope people call you weekly?
Posted by libberty on September 14, 2003, at 8:53:00
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by HenryO on September 13, 2003, at 3:24:09
Hi Henry,
I am in the midst of my insomnia problem so I stopped meds for about one week and then had to start back a small dose of remeron back in June. I was only on 12 suppliments during that time. I once again went back up to 18 suppliments and then came off the 1 mg remeron and when my insomnia returned this time about 2 weeks ago, I began taking 10 to 20mg tegretol. I just started that a few nights ago.
This has been worked out with Tessa at TrueHope. I call them and they call me at least once a week, sometimes I talk to them every two or three days.
My biggest problem is the insomnia, I have tried buying inositol and choline but have not been able to get to sleep on that. I do have some luck with over the counter benadryl, which is cheap but it doesn't always work for me. Once I stop sleeping, it is hard for me to start up once again on my own. I was used to taking klonopin whenever this problem would arise but that is a redflag drug.
I have also had some depersonalization but that is a side effect of the remeron. HOpefully when that exits my system, I will return to a normal range of emotions.How are you doing?
dee
Posted by Esperanza on January 12, 2004, at 15:12:24
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE, posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 9:39:45
Deb,
You sound good. Are you still taking EM Power+? Is it still working for you? Are you still writing? Please update us.
Posted by buddhi on May 19, 2004, at 12:06:21
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge, posted by Lorraine on June 4, 2001, at 9:57:09
> There was also that drug or diet they did that caused tryptophan deficiency. Can't remember more--part of the disease. Anyway why not do a tryptophan challenge--just take it and see if it changes anything. (5HTP is all you can get now). I did this challenge--it didn't help. But I new that within a couple of days. (I know maybe it should have taken 6 weeks for it to have an effect, but these aminos and amino precursors have strong effects with me and I feel them right away.) I have also tried tyrosine, phenylalmine, glutamine, gaba, choline. They all have immediate and fairly profound effects on me. In a pinch, I would take tyrosine, phenylalmine and glutamine in a combo to make it through a few days between meds. The gaba I still take and give to my son (13) when he is too anxious to sleep before an exam. The choline, amazingly enough, seems to have stopped my "skin picking" (eating cuticles) behaviour so I think I'll continue it.
>hi! Wondering how much choline you used and what brand? I'm trying to stop my nail picking!!! Thanks amy
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 19, 2004, at 23:31:17
In reply to Re: choline question » Lorraine, posted by buddhi on May 19, 2004, at 12:06:21
> hi! Wondering how much choline you used and what brand?
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect this thread to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040418/msgs/348755.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by ajuliagulia on June 27, 2006, at 16:28:23
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE » good4u, posted by Sulpicia on April 10, 2001, at 17:18:20
Apparently Sulpicia is lacking in common sense if that is what tells her that there was no Harvard study.
The study can be looked up on: The Journal of Clinical Psychiatry 64:3, March 2003, page 338
> > > >
> >
> > Dear S.
> >
> > How can you guarantee this is not being researched at Harvard?
>
> first here is a list of the ingredients in the purported miracle cure:
> http://www.truehope.com/misc%20files/ingredients_list.htm
>
> I can use my common sense to guarantee that Harvard is not researching
> a non-medical for-profit miracle cure for 6 psychiatric disorders based
> on anecdotal evidence, but to be fair I also looked at the FDA clinical
> trials web site.
> I'm with James -- tell us what gives and maybe we can suggest. Most of us
> have been around the block a few times.
> Please pardon me if my original post was a bit strident. I spend a lot of time
> defusing nonsense like this for moms with kids. I've seen some horrible things happen
> and I tend to over-react.
> Best,
> S. :):)
Posted by Craig on June 27, 2006, at 16:49:30
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE, posted by ajuliagulia on June 27, 2006, at 16:28:23
How could Sulpicia have been aware of a journal published two years after her post? She wrote it in 2001 and the study you refer to was published in 2003.
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE » good4u, posted by Sulpicia on April 10, 2001, at 17:18:20Apparently Sulpicia is lacking in common sense if that is what tells her that there was no Harvard study.
The study can be looked up on: The Journal of Clinical Psychiatry 64:3, March 2003, page 338
Posted by libberty on June 27, 2006, at 21:59:12
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE, posted by ajuliagulia on June 27, 2006, at 16:28:23
been on truehope suppliments, empower and inositol for over 2 yrs, med free and was diagnosed bipolar 1 with psychotic features, am not the only one. I never, never went off meds with out becoming psychotic and hospitalized before these suppliments, why do ppl always believe the body responds to chemicals and not to nutrients?
thanks
libb
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 27, 2006, at 23:36:26
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE, posted by ajuliagulia on June 27, 2006, at 16:28:23
> Apparently Sulpicia is lacking in common sense
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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