![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by HopeB on January 5, 2001, at 9:18:56
Hi I just turned 27 and would love anyone with derealization or depersonalization to contact me I have been dealing with it for a year now and it is very hard and I cover very well but somtimes I feel like I just can't any longer what do you do?
also I have found mine is worse at night- also somtimes my family and familiar things seem foggy and unfamiliar like I have to remind myself this is real and they are familiar! anyone else?
THANKS- HopeB
Posted by JahL on January 5, 2001, at 14:58:46
In reply to HI! new here-derealization anyone?, posted by HopeB on January 5, 2001, at 9:18:56
> Hi I just turned 27 and would love anyone with derealization or depersonalization to contact me I have been dealing with it for a year now and it is very hard and I cover very well but somtimes I feel like I just can't any longer what do you do?
> also I have found mine is worse at night- also somtimes my family and familiar things seem foggy and unfamiliar like I have to remind myself this is real and they are familiar! anyone else?
> THANKS- HopeBYeah I've had it to some extent since I was a kid. Can't get a grip on the world. Feeling like you could walk straight through people. Inanimate objects appearing to breathe. Friends appearing as strangers. General wierdness.
Jah.
Posted by noa on January 5, 2001, at 15:44:46
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?, posted by JahL on January 5, 2001, at 14:58:46
Do you also have any anxiety symptoms? panic symptoms?
Posted by HopeB on January 5, 2001, at 16:18:08
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?, posted by noa on January 5, 2001, at 15:44:46
> Do you also have any anxiety symptoms? panic symptoms?
yes I have had anxiety attacks major ones constant for years heart pounding out of my mind attacks then over night and I do mean over night they stopped I can't figure out why they just did but they were replaced with this and at first it was constant and acidy nonfeeling dropped in the middle of my life like i haven't always been here feeling and now no panic just this.. Thanks to everyone that replied BIG HUGS~
HopeB
Posted by shellie on January 5, 2001, at 18:55:33
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?, posted by HopeB on January 5, 2001, at 16:18:08
Hi Hope. I was wondering. I have a dissociative disorder which apparently originated out of childhood trauma. Did your derealization develop out of childhood trauma, or a traumatic event as a young adult or adult? Shellie
Posted by tina on January 5, 2001, at 20:18:36
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?, posted by shellie on January 5, 2001, at 18:55:33
Hi Hope:
Big time derealization here. It's like in some movies where the camera pulls back but the character is still centre in the picture. Things around me just seem to move back, out of my view and then I feel like a ghost sort of drifting through the room unable to touch or hear things. It's a kind of hallucination I guess. I'm riddled with panic and anxiety all the time though and I think my unreal experiences stem from that.
Good luck to you
Tina> Hi Hope. I was wondering. I have a dissociative disorder which apparently originated out of childhood trauma. Did your derealization develop out of childhood trauma, or a traumatic event as a young adult or adult? Shellie
Posted by HopeB on January 5, 2001, at 21:21:15
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?, posted by tina on January 5, 2001, at 20:18:36
> Hi Hope:
> Big time derealization here. It's like in some movies where the camera pulls back but the character is still centre in the picture. Things around me just seem to move back, out of my view and then I feel like a ghost sort of drifting through the room unable to touch or hear things. It's a kind of hallucination I guess. I'm riddled with panic and anxiety all the time though and I think my unreal experiences stem from that.
> Good luck to you
> Tina
>
> > Hi Hope. I was wondering. I have a dissociative disorder which apparently originated out of childhood trauma. Did your derealization develop out of childhood trauma, or a traumatic event as a young adult or adult? Shellie
Thanks so much first of all for sharing your experiences with me-- I know how you feel and it is great to hear from someone else who shares in these experiences... aren't they the scariest yes it is like almost being in IT"S A WONDERFUL LIFE!
Only it isn't a movie... I have had some trauma but it was mostly isolated and years ago and why now is this happening I do not know! But no one understands really unless they have it as you already know I am sure! It is like you honestly
know how it might feel to be schizophrenic or alzheimer type people-- of course it isn't the same but it brings you closer to understanding how twisted life is for those of us with less than normal existance... I have a one year old son and a 5y old son and somtimes they seem unfamiliar of course the whole time I know they aren't but it is like I said, being thrown down into the middle of this persons life you have sat and watched until now and now you are that person!-- I know you know what I am saying.. enough for tonight don't want to babble on hehe-- but please keep posting :)
GOODLUCK I am always checking here and would love to listen and share with you! THANKS SO MUCH!!!!
HUGSSSS! HOPE B
Posted by Noa on January 6, 2001, at 10:35:33
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?, posted by HopeB on January 5, 2001, at 21:21:15
I think it is related to the anxiety/panic disorder. I don't know why one set of symptoms would fade and this one replace it though. I don't think it is hallucination, ie--not psychosis. More of an anxiety symptom. If you think about it, it seems like a protective measure the brain takes to protect from the panicky feelings. That's one way to look at it, anyway.
Posted by HopeB on January 6, 2001, at 11:14:23
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?, posted by Noa on January 6, 2001, at 10:35:33
> I think it is related to the anxiety/panic disorder. I don't know why one set of symptoms would fade and this one replace it though. I don't think it is hallucination, ie--not psychosis. More of an anxiety symptom. If you think about it, it seems like a protective measure the brain takes to protect from the panicky feelings. That's one way to look at it, anyway.
Yes noa I agree--to what degree does this become somthing someone should seek help for though... I mean are people with this sort of thing, needing to seek help or should they just go on and deal with it?
Also it can be depressing not to mention isolating people don't understand it and it even scares people enough to just ignore it .. the times I have mentioned it to my family they have shrugged it off out of fear or out of ignore it and it will go away just get a grip of yourself..
none are helpful though... it means so much to me that you are listening and I hope I can help in anyway you need as well .. or atleast listen :0)
Posted by HopeB on January 6, 2001, at 13:58:47
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?, posted by tina on January 5, 2001, at 20:18:36
YOu said you had a disassociation problem - has this been diagnosed and if so what is the treatment plan for such as well as the rarity of this? Thanks and goodluck Hope
Posted by shellie on January 7, 2001, at 9:26:50
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?-attn shelli, posted by HopeB on January 6, 2001, at 13:58:47
> YOu said you had a disassociation problem - has this been diagnosed and if so what is the treatment plan for such as well as the rarity of this? Thanks and goodluck Hope
Hi Hope. Yes, I have been diagnosed with a dissociative disorder for about the last eight years. I think if you read this short article:
http://www.voiceofwomen.com/centerarticle.html --
it may help you understand that dissociative disorders involves a spectrum from PTSD to DID (MPD). It also talks a bit about treatment. Anyway, I think it is a good starting point for reading about dissociative disorders. Shellie
Posted by sadie on January 7, 2001, at 20:23:58
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone? » HopeB, posted by shellie on January 7, 2001, at 9:26:50
It is such a good feeling to find out that others have these feelings too. I have struggled with this 'spaced out' feeling as long as I can remember. I am 29. Shellie, that article you posted really helped me understand what's going on. The only problem I have is that I can't seem to recall any type of childhood trauma. I have had accidents and such (broken bones, stiches to my forehead) but nothing that in my views would be considered tramatic. Can these feelings come from something else? Thanks to all.
Posted by LISABECK on January 7, 2001, at 21:30:42
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?, posted by noa on January 5, 2001, at 15:44:46
THAT IS MY VERY WORST SYMPTOM, OR SHOULD I SAY WAS MY VERY WORST SYMPTOM. I SUFFER FROM PANIC DISORDER AND VERY MILD DEPRESSION. MY DOCTOR GAVE ME TOPAMAX FOR ANXIETY, AND, AT 25MGS, IT HAS STOPPED MY DEREALIZATION....THE STARING, SPACING OUT, FEELING LIKE I AM SHUT OUT FEELING IS GONE...MAYBE YOU SHOULD ASK ABOUT THIS MED..
Posted by Noa on January 8, 2001, at 6:00:30
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?, posted by HopeB on January 6, 2001, at 11:14:23
.
> to what degree does this become somthing someone should seek help for though...> it can be depressing not to mention isolating
Hope, I think you answered your own question: it makes sense to seek treatment if the symptom causes distress or interferes with life.
Posted by Noa on January 8, 2001, at 6:06:35
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone? » HopeB, posted by shellie on January 7, 2001, at 9:26:50
About dissociation: the only caveat I would add is that most everything available to read about dissociation links it to trauma, and I think there are probably some people who have dissociative symptoms that are not associated with trauma. I think this is especially true if the dissociation or derealization is a symptom of a panic disorder, social phobia, etc. This is just my opinion. I guess I liken this to the depression continuum--contributing factors can range from the completely biological end to the completely environmental end, and everything in between, with biology and environment impacting on each other. It just bothers me that whenever I read anything about dissociative disorders, it seems trauma is assumed. While that may be mostly true, I have to think that it is not a good idea to assume it is always true.
Posted by HopeB on January 8, 2001, at 8:04:52
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?, posted by sadie on January 7, 2001, at 20:23:58
> It is such a good feeling to find out that others have these feelings too. I have struggled with this 'spaced out' feeling as long as I can remember. I am 29. Shellie, that article you posted really helped me understand what's going on. The only problem I have is that I can't seem to recall any type of childhood trauma. I have had accidents and such (broken bones, stiches to my forehead) but nothing that in my views would be considered tramatic. Can these feelings come from something else? Thanks to all.
I dont know I was date raped when I was 17 but I remember it and alot of things from when your young you just can't remember -hmmm i dont know?? I haven't had really bad things happen but I like you am struggling -all of us together will get through it :0) I will support you in anyway possible -all of you Goodluck:0) HOpeB
Posted by HopeB on January 8, 2001, at 8:14:19
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?-sadie, posted by HopeB on January 8, 2001, at 8:04:52
> > It is such a good feeling to find out that others have these feelings too. I have struggled with this 'spaced out' feeling as long as I can remember. I am 29. Shellie, that article you posted really helped me understand what's going on. The only problem I have is that I can't seem to recall any type of childhood trauma. I have had accidents and such (broken bones, stiches to my forehead) but nothing that in my views would be considered tramatic. Can these feelings come from something else? Thanks to all.
> I dont know I was date raped when I was 17 but I remember it and alot of things from when your young you just can't remember -hmmm i dont know?? I haven't had really bad things happen but I like you am struggling -all of us together will get through it :0) I will support you in anyway possible -all of you Goodluck:0) HOpeB
I have to agree with Noa -this isn't always trauma from what I hear and read it always mentions trauma and also MPD... before having depersonalization and derealization I did not think that MPD was real.. while I do not have MPD I do believe that anything can happen with your mind -after all alot of people wouldnt believe this feeling after all how do describe it to someone who doesn't have it -no way to really. I went to a psychiatrist when these symtoms first started (and were constant- I couldn't even look at my food for wondering is it real what is it -questioning everything) I went to doc tho and I was a basket case I cried the whole time told him exactly what was happening and felt like I was sinking in the pattern of his oriental rug the more i talked-- he said it's trauma etc. and we need to go through it - ugh! Noway... I have been to tens ofpsychs my 27years and been diagnosed and prescribed to death -who really knows??
Anyhow, I am just waiting for the next really bad bout to seek help again as usual--- right now it is taking a rest it's there but not all the time-- (this happens some with me -it is there then I think it is gone almost-- then it happens again and constant a while )
Take care and keep posting -the support is tremendous-- and by support I just mean contact of any sort :0)
Love HopeB
Posted by Noa on January 8, 2001, at 14:48:44
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?-sadie, posted by HopeB on January 8, 2001, at 8:14:19
Why wait for it to flare up to get treatment? I would think that treatment aimed at building your coping skills would be helpful in dealing with bouts as they occur--and it is probably better to work on that when you are not in the throes of a flare up.
I also don't think every trauma victim has to go into all the memories. At the very least, the pace should be cautious, don't you think?
Posted by HopeB on January 8, 2001, at 16:09:19
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?-sadie, posted by Noa on January 8, 2001, at 14:48:44
> Why wait for it to flare up to get treatment? I would think that treatment aimed at building your coping skills would be helpful in dealing with bouts as they occur--and it is probably better to work on that when you are not in the throes of a flare up.
>
> I also don't think every trauma victim has to go into all the memories. At the very least, the pace should be cautious, don't you think?yes absolutely,, also I understand exactly what you mean by why wait but the thing is that I often think it is gone when I don't have it and maybe it is going away--
Love HopeB
Hey has anyone checked out the depersonalization board? great forum http://depersonalization.hypermart.net/
Posted by shellie on January 8, 2001, at 16:35:27
In reply to Re: HI! new here-derealization anyone?, posted by Noa on January 8, 2001, at 6:06:35
> About dissociation: the only caveat I would add is that most everything available to read about dissociation links it to trauma, and I think there are probably some people who have dissociative symptoms that are not associated with trauma. I think this is especially true if the dissociation or derealization is a symptom of a panic disorder, social phobia, etc. This is just my opinion. I guess I liken this to the depression continuum--contributing factors can range from the completely biological end to the completely environmental end, and everything in between, with biology and environment impacting on each other. It just bothers me that whenever I read anything about dissociative disorders, it seems trauma is assumed. While that may be mostly true, I have to think that it is not a good idea to assume it is always true.
Noa, I had the same thought, so I did a search on depersonalization. I was actually looking for its link to anxiety and panic attacks. There is one, but from what I've read, the depersonalization lasts only as long as the panic attack. I can't find a link between anxiety or panic and long term dissociation. I do think that dissociation is learned in childhood and is triggered again by an incident in adulthood. Perhaps what is trauma to one child, is not as traumatic to another. An inclination to dissociate is limited to only some children, with a predisposition to dissociate, rather than use other defense mechanisms. If a child fits into that group, horrific trauma usually results in DID (MPD). So what is being referred to as trauma can be less than horrific, but still traumatic enough, perhaps to create a dissociation lower on the dissociative spectrum.
And the tendency now, opposed to ten years ago, is to go very very slowly through trauma to keep a person as stable as possible. And EMDR has somewhat replaced hypnosis as a tool to work through traumatic recall--which is not mentioned in Dr. Turkus' paper.
But anyway, I do understand your doubts. Shellie
Posted by SLS on January 8, 2001, at 21:32:45
In reply to Re: derealization » Noa, posted by shellie on January 8, 2001, at 16:35:27
Hi guys.
Since I experienced some rather severe depersonalization and derealization in my early twenties, and continue to experience them when my depression is at its most severe and anxiety is present, I was curious to check out their tie to childhood trauma. I don't think I qualify as a survivor of abuse, although my parents did beat me with a paddle or a belt if I was a bad boy. I had been depressed for at least 5 years before I experienced these things, and they began during a period of monumental stress in my life, not trauma.
QUESTION: How would you guys define or describe dissociative disorder or dissociative symptoms? I really don't have much of a handle on this.
> > About dissociation: the only caveat I would add is that most everything available to read about dissociation links it to trauma, and I think there are probably some people who have dissociative symptoms that are not associated with trauma. I think this is especially true if the dissociation or derealization is a symptom of a panic disorder, social phobia, etc. This is just my opinion. I guess I liken this to the depression continuum--contributing factors can range from the completely biological end to the completely environmental end, and everything in between, with biology and environment impacting on each other. It just bothers me that whenever I read anything about dissociative disorders, it seems trauma is assumed. While that may be mostly true, I have to think that it is not a good idea to assume it is always true.
>
> Noa, I had the same thought, so I did a search on depersonalization. I was actually looking for its link to anxiety and panic attacks. There is one, but from what I've read, the depersonalization lasts only as long as the panic attack. I can't find a link between anxiety or panic and long term dissociation. I do think that dissociation is learned in childhood and is triggered again by an incident in adulthood. Perhaps what is trauma to one child, is not as traumatic to another. An inclination to dissociate is limited to only some children, with a predisposition to dissociate, rather than use other defense mechanisms. If a child fits into that group, horrific trauma usually results in DID (MPD). So what is being referred to as trauma can be less than horrific, but still traumatic enough, perhaps to create a dissociation lower on the dissociative spectrum.
>
> And the tendency now, opposed to ten years ago, is to go very very slowly through trauma to keep a person as stable as possible. And EMDR has somewhat replaced hypnosis as a tool to work through traumatic recall--which is not mentioned in Dr. Turkus' paper.
>
> But anyway, I do understand your doubts. Shellie
Both derealization and depersonalization are not exclusive to dissociative disorders proper. Both can be manifestations of moderate to severe depression; their magnitudes linked to severity. However, it seems that anxiety and stress are often necessary components of their occurrences. I experienced both. Weird stuff.
-------------------------
Nice job ladies!!!!!!!
-------------------------The abstract I included below infers that there is no linkage between the derealization and depersonalization experienced during panic attacks and childhood trauma.
By the way, Michael Liebowitz was the physician who first diagnosed me in 1982. I only wish that my treatment history could have reflected his initial optimism. Real nice guy.
Yes. I am an incorrigible name dropper. I only wish that I could have lived my life without having so many to drop.
------------------------------------------------------
1: Am J Psychiatry 2000 Mar;157(3):451-3Childhood trauma and dissociative symptoms in panic disorder.
Marshall RD, Schneier FR, Lin SH, Simpson HB, Vermes D, Liebowitz M
New York State Psychiatric Institute, Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York, NY 10032, USA. randall@nyspi.cpmc.columbia.edu
OBJECTIVE: Childhood trauma has been associated with increased risk for both panic disorder and dissociative symptoms in adulthood. The authors hypothesized that among individuals with a primary diagnosis of panic disorder, those experiencing depersonalization/derealization during panic attacks would be more likely to have a history of childhood trauma. METHOD: Rates of traumatic events were compared between panic disorder patients with (N=34) and without (N=40) prominent depersonalization/derealization during panic attacks. Symptom severity in the two groups was also examined. RESULTS: Contrary to the authors' hypothesis, no evidence was found that depersonalization/derealization during panic attacks was associated with childhood trauma. Minimal differences in severity of illness were found between patients with dissociative symptoms and those without such symptoms. CONCLUSIONS: This finding is consistent with a multifactorial model of dissociation. Factors other than childhood trauma and general psychopathology may underlie vulnerability to dissociative symptoms in panic disorder.
PMID: 10698824, UI: 20163946
Posted by judy1 on January 8, 2001, at 22:57:41
In reply to Re: derealization , posted by SLS on January 8, 2001, at 21:32:45
Well, I probably can't let this go by since I'm being forced to confront it now. I know I have experienced dissociative symptoms during panic attacks (which always occur during depressive episodes) that last as long as the attack. I also experience severe dissociative states during periods of high stress that involve self injury. It seems that this particular symptom is the one most associated with childhood trauma and is the category I fit into. If anyone is experiencing this, Marsha Linehan has developed a program that has proven efficacy (good luck finding a local practitioner) and EMDR has it's advocates. I guess there is an entire spectrum of dissociation from mild to severe (DID), and the other lesson I learned is not all people who SI are automatically suffering from borderline personality disorder. Quite the mess.
Posted by SLS on January 9, 2001, at 8:41:59
In reply to Re: derealization » SLS, posted by judy1 on January 8, 2001, at 22:57:41
Hi Judy,
> Well, I probably can't let this go by since I'm being forced to confront it now. I know I have experienced dissociative symptoms during panic attacks (which always occur during depressive episodes) that last as long as the attack. I also experience severe dissociative states during periods of high stress that involve self injury.
> It seems that this particular symptom is the one most associated with childhood trauma and is the category I fit into.
Which symptom? The self-injury or dissociative states in general?
It sounds like you are referring specifically to self-injury. That is very interesting (and tragic, of course).
As I said, I know nothing of dissociative disorders. If you are implying that, contrary to the abstract I found, childhood trauma is a necessary link to dissociative states, I think I would like to learn more about it.
One study does not the Truth make.
The association may be valid. Perhaps the "disciplinary" beatings or some other set of events during my childhood that I don't recognize as being especially traumatic may have contributed, along with several other environmental stressors, to produce in me depersonalization and derealization when such would not have occurred without these adverse physical experiences. I would not have made a good candidate for the study I cited because my history regarding abuse might be considered equivocal. I will say this, though. During a recent conversation I had with someone in which I described the details of my physical beatings, I was told that they were indeed considered abusive. I just didn't know any better.
Still, it doesn't *feel* like I was abused. However, I do feel that the beatings acted in concert with the many other dysfunctional aspects of my family life, and the cognitive and emotional confusion resulting from a lack of nurturing and guidence, to help trigger my bipolar depression and probably kindled it to be more severe and treatment resistant that it would otherwise have been.
I read that both depersonalization and derealization are considered to be dissociative states. I know that both often occur in people who seem to suffer from uncomplicated and spontaneous severe depression, both bipolar and unipolar, for which there seems to be no comorbid anxiety disorder, post-traumatic components, or any identifiable history of psychosocial or environmental pathologies. It would be interesting to pursue the notion that when dissociative states emerge in such cases, whether it is the stress and trauma of the depressive experience itself that precipitates these states.
> If anyone is experiencing this, Marsha Linehan has developed a program that has proven efficacy (good luck finding a local practitioner) and EMDR has it's advocates. I guess there is an entire spectrum of dissociation from mild to severe (DID), and the other lesson I learned is not all people who SI are automatically suffering from borderline personality disorder. Quite the mess.
I would still like to gain a better understanding of what dissociative disorders proper are, what causes them, what they feel like, and how they are most successfully treated. I guess I'll just have to do some homework.
:-)
Take care,
Scott
Posted by judy1 on January 9, 2001, at 11:00:19
In reply to Re: derealization , posted by SLS on January 9, 2001, at 8:41:59
Hi Scott,
I was referring to the relationship between SI and childhood trauma. I agree with your observation that dissociation does not implicate the existance of childhood trauma and is often comorbid with anxiety, mood and other disorders. A true dissociative state for me involves a loss of time- I am simply not there. I have had milder forms (especially during panic attacks) where I feel as if I'm watching a movie (and not a very good one at that). I was fortunate to find a therapist recently (Alderman) who authored 'The Scarred Soul' who may help. I am convinced that my past experiences are triggering manic episodes- and seem to worsen in therapy. The theory I was given is I am seeing my psychiatrist as an authority figure and when I (Miss Hypersensitivity) perceive a threat to my safety- a frown, his being late to a session, etc.- that starts this whole cascade of mania, the depressive crash, the panic attacks and dissociation and SI. When you start doing your reading, you'll realize how complex all of this truly is. Good luck- Judy
Posted by Noa on January 9, 2001, at 15:48:53
In reply to Re: derealization » SLS, posted by judy1 on January 9, 2001, at 11:00:19
Wow, Judy, sounds like important work you are doing, trying to understand the nuances of how social cues can trigger your moods and episodes. Fascinating.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.