![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Anna P. on November 6, 2000, at 10:21:12
I just tried Viloxazine and it had battled my anergia so far as well as SAD.
I feel full of energy the first time since a long time.
I take it with 4 mg Reboxetine, 50 mg Viloxazine and 300 Neurontin to prevent poop-out, and it works so far.
Viloxazine may be purchased from Pharma group without prescription. It's the energizing drug, no side effects, no sexual side effects, and probably no major weight gain.Sounds too good to be true?
Viloxazine is a good medication for people who had a good response to Parnate or Wellbutrin, but coudn't tolerate it for some reason, just like me.
References:1. Sebjanic V, Grombein S. Adv Biochem Psychopharmacol 1982:32113-20
Viloxazine in depression: results of a field trial of 276 patients in neuropsychiatric practice.2. Poldinger W. Dtsch Med Wochenschr 1982 Apr 30: 107 (17):661-5 Double blind comparison of the antidepressives viloxazine and impiramine.
3. Schaffer JD at al. Int Pharmacopsychiatry 1982: 17(1):36-42 A collaborative study of a new antidepressant Viloxazine, in neurotic and endogenous depressives.
Of course everyone mileage may vary, what happens a miracle for me, may not be working for another person. Our chemistries are different.
Anna P.
Posted by JahL on November 6, 2000, at 19:02:45
In reply to ATTENTION ALL ANERGIC DEPRESSION SUFFERERS!, posted by Anna P. on November 6, 2000, at 10:21:12
> I just tried Viloxazine and it had battled my anergia so far as well as SAD.
> I feel full of energy the first time since a long time.
> I take it with 4 mg Reboxetine, 50 mg Viloxazine and 300 Neurontin to prevent poop-out, and it works so far.
> Viloxazine may be purchased from Pharma group without prescription. It's the energizing drug, no side effects, no sexual side effects, and probably no major weight gain.
>
> Sounds too good to be true?
>
> Viloxazine is a good medication for people who had a good response to Parnate or Wellbutrin, but coudn't tolerate it for some reason, just like me.Hi Anna.
Congratulations on yr success. It has inspired me to maybe give it (Viloxazine) a go. However the Pharmagroup site refuses to process my order. Not sure if it's my computer or the site. Did you have any problems? I was wondering if you might have an e-mail address or even a fax/fone no. for them??
Thanks,
Jah.
Posted by stjames on November 7, 2000, at 2:29:48
In reply to ATTENTION ALL ANERGIC DEPRESSION SUFFERERS!, posted by Anna P. on November 6, 2000, at 10:21:12
It's the energizing drug, no side effects, no sexual side effects, and probably no major weight gain.
Sounds too good to be true?James here....
It is related to the TCA's so don't count on no sexual or weight problems.
All the contraindications of TCA's apply. It sound like it would be a good choice
for me as I am a nor-e person. From http://cebmh.warne.ox.ac.uk/cebmh/nelmh/depression/treatment/other2.html#viloxazine :Viloxazine (Vivalan) is not widely used as an antidepressant, although it
appears to be effective and side-effects appear to be less than with
tricyclics.It should not be used in patients with recent heart attack, with disturbance
of heart rhythm, or with severe liver disease. It should be used carefully in
patients with heart, liver or thyroid disease; epilepsy, phaeochromocytoma,
history of mania, psychosis, closed angle glaucoma, history of urinary
retention, or having current electroconvulsive therapy; in the elderly; and in
women who are pregnant or breast-feeding. It may interact with other
medicines.It should not be used with apraclonidine or brimonidine.
It increases the sedative effects of alcohol.
It may increase the serum level of antiepileptics.
Its side-effects are similar to those of the tricyclic antidepressants,
although sedation, and other side-effects, are milder.People taking viloxazine should not drive or operate machinery if they believe
they may be under the influence of viloxazine.James
Posted by Anna P. on November 7, 2000, at 13:35:54
In reply to Re: ATTENTION ALL ANERGIC DEPRESSION SUFFERERS!, posted by stjames on November 7, 2000, at 2:29:48
>
> It's the energizing drug, no side effects, no sexual side effects, and probably no major weight gain.
> Sounds too good to be true?
>
> James here....
>
> It is related to the TCA's so don't count on no sexual or weight problems.
> All the contraindications of TCA's apply. It sound like it would be a good choice
> for me as I am a nor-e person. From http://cebmh.warne.ox.ac.uk/cebmh/nelmh/depression/treatment/other2.html#viloxazine :
>
> Viloxazine (Vivalan) is not widely used as an antidepressant, although it
> appears to be effective and side-effects appear to be less than with
> tricyclics.
>
> It should not be used in patients with recent heart attack, with disturbance
> of heart rhythm, or with severe liver disease. It should be used carefully in
> patients with heart, liver or thyroid disease; epilepsy, phaeochromocytoma,
> history of mania, psychosis, closed angle glaucoma, history of urinary
> retention, or having current electroconvulsive therapy; in the elderly; and in
> women who are pregnant or breast-feeding. It may interact with other
> medicines.
>
> It should not be used with apraclonidine or brimonidine.
>
> It increases the sedative effects of alcohol.
>
> It may increase the serum level of antiepileptics.
>
> Its side-effects are similar to those of the tricyclic antidepressants,
> although sedation, and other side-effects, are milder.
>
> People taking viloxazine should not drive or operate machinery if they believe
> they may be under the influence of viloxazine.
>
> James, these are good information. I can't find any more, and there is so little info on Medline. I'm still wondering if Viloxazine works on nordraneline system only or dopamine as well.
Do you know? How to find it out? There is definitely no serotonin system involved, as there isn't any sexual dysfunction. The only serotogenic AD without sexual dysfunction that I know is Tianeptine.Anna P.
>
Posted by Anna P. on November 7, 2000, at 13:46:49
In reply to Re: ATTENTION ALL ANERGIC DEPRESSION SUFFERERS! » Anna P., posted by JahL on November 6, 2000, at 19:02:45
> > I just tried Viloxazine and it had battled my anergia so far as well as SAD.
> > I feel full of energy the first time since a long time.
> > I take it with 4 mg Reboxetine, 50 mg Viloxazine and 300 Neurontin to prevent poop-out, and it works so far.
> > Viloxazine may be purchased from Pharma group without prescription. It's the energizing drug, no side effects, no sexual side effects, and probably no major weight gain.
> >
> > Sounds too good to be true?
> >
> > Viloxazine is a good medication for people who had a good response to Parnate or Wellbutrin, but coudn't tolerate it for some reason, just like me.
>
> Hi Anna.
>
> Congratulations on yr success. It has inspired me to maybe give it (Viloxazine) a go. However the Pharmagroup site refuses to process my order. Not sure if it's my computer or the site. Did you have any problems? I was wondering if you might have an e-mail address or even a fax/fone no. for them??
>
> Thanks,
> Jah.Jah, their e-mail address is remailer@pharmagroup.com. Start with Viloxazine slowly at 100 mg a day, then increase. Don't mix with other meds without the doctor approval. I know that generally, Vivalan isn't considered that much effective. But it's always worth a try.
If you are really depressed, I would recommend trying Tianeptine. It's more potent.Anna P.
Posted by SLS on November 7, 2000, at 13:48:56
In reply to ATTENTION ALL ANERGIC DEPRESSION SUFFERERS!, posted by Anna P. on November 6, 2000, at 10:21:12
Hi Anna.
Is viloxazine still being manufactured?
What is the name of the drug company?
I am surprised that your doctor so readily added viloxazine, a NE reuptake inhibitor, to reboxetine, another NE reuptake inhibitor. It is obviously a good combination for you. I have just started with a new doctor, and I'm not sure he is creative as to use these two drugs in combination. Where did he get the idea to do this? Does he often use this type of combination?
Thanks.
Scott
> It's the energizing drug, no side effects, no sexual side effects, and probably no major weight gain.
Posted by JahL on November 7, 2000, at 14:28:23
In reply to Re: JahL, posted by Anna P. on November 7, 2000, at 13:46:49
Hi Anna.
> >
> > Congratulations on yr success. It has inspired me to maybe give it (Viloxazine) a go. However the Pharmagroup site refuses to process my order. Not sure if it's my computer or the site. Did you have any problems? I was wondering if you might have an e-mail address or even a fax/fone no. for them??
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jah.
>
> Jah, their e-mail address is remailer@pharmagroup.com.
Thanks Anna, but this address rtns yr mail & refers you to the 'Contact Us' page. Herein lies the problem; the contact no.s don't show up (at least not on my computer) on this page.Are you able to access this info? (I presume you must've since you've ordered) I'd be grateful if you could help; Pharmagroup are holding a load of meds I'd like to try augmenting with!(was there an address on the confirmation e-mail they say they'll send?)
Many thanks,
Jah.
Posted by Anna P. on November 7, 2000, at 14:42:59
In reply to Re: ATTENTION ALL ANERGIC DEPRESSION SUFFERERS! » Anna P., posted by SLS on November 7, 2000, at 13:48:56
> Hi Anna.
>
> Is viloxazine still being manufactured?I get bad news that it's stopped being manufactured in UK, but it's still available in France.
>
> What is the name of the drug company?Zeneca
>
> I am surprised that your doctor so readily added viloxazine, a NE reuptake inhibitor, to reboxetine, another NE reuptake inhibitor. It is obviously a good combination for you. I have just started with a new doctor, and I'm not sure he is creative as to use these two drugs in combination. Where did he get the idea to do this? Does he often use this type of combination?Scott, I see my Pdoc periodically. But if I count on doctors, I would be lying in bed today, handicapped because of depression.
Nothing is worse than being depressed and not being able to function.
By the way, how do you know that Viloxazine is NE reuptake inhibitor?Anna P.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Scott
>
>
> > It's the energizing drug, no side effects, no sexual side effects, and probably no major weight gain.
Posted by Anna P. on November 7, 2000, at 14:53:24
In reply to Re: JahL » Anna P., posted by JahL on November 7, 2000, at 14:28:23
> Hi Anna.
> > >
> > > Congratulations on yr success. It has inspired me to maybe give it (Viloxazine) a go. However the Pharmagroup site refuses to process my order. Not sure if it's my computer or the site. Did you have any problems? I was wondering if you might have an e-mail address or even a fax/fone no. for them??
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Jah.
> >
> > Jah, their e-mail address is remailer@pharmagroup.com.
>
> Thanks Anna, but this address rtns yr mail & refers you to the 'Contact Us' page. Herein lies the problem; the contact no.s don't show up (at least not on my computer) on this page.
>
> Are you able to access this info? (I presume you must've since you've ordered) I'd be grateful if you could help; Pharmagroup are holding a load of meds I'd like to try augmenting with!(was there an address on the confirmation e-mail they say they'll send?)
>
> Many thanks,
> Jah.Jah, the only thing I can think of is trying to access their new web site from the Internet Explorer. I had that problem before. Otherwise, I will try to find their phone/fax number.
Anna P.
Posted by SLS on November 7, 2000, at 16:43:26
In reply to Re:ATTENTION ANERGIC DEPRESSION SUFFERERS/Scott, posted by Anna P. on November 7, 2000, at 14:42:59
Hi Anna.
Thanks for replying.
I had always known viloxazine as a NE reuptake inhibitor. When I reviewed the Medline database, I could not find anything that would contradict this, although there may be some variabilitly in the conclusions of its relative potency.
I am still intrigued by your choice. What led you to choose viloxazine? I would definitely be interested in trying it given your results with it. For some reason, I recall a post stating that it is no longer being manufactured. Do you know anything about it? What countries currently market this drug? I'm pretty sure France had.
Thanks again.
- Scott
---------------------------------------------------------: Acta Psychiatr Scand Suppl 2000;402:28-36
Noradrenaline and serotonin reuptake inhibition as clinical principles: a review of antidepressant efficacy.
Humble M
Division of Psychiatry, Karolinska Institutet, Huddinge University Hospital,
Sweden.[Medline record in process]
Imipramine and other subsequently developed antidepressants produce numerous neurochemical effects, some of which presumably represent active antidepressant principles. Numerous studies have compared the efficacy of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) with noradrenaline reuptake inhibitors (NRIs) with variable selectivity, such as desipramine, lofepramine, viloxazine, maprotiline or oxaprotiline. Most studies have failed to show differences in response rates or subtype responsivity. However, in some studies NRIs appear to be superior to SSRIs as regards retardation and, conversely, SSRIs appear superior as regards anxiety symptoms. Furthermore, NRIs may be more effective than SSRIs in severe depression. The novel selective NRI reboxetine has been shown to be at least as effective as imipramine, desipramine and fluoxetine in the treatment of major depression. Moreover, reboxetine may also improve social functioning significantly more than fluoxetine providing a better quality of the remission.
PMID: 10901156, UI: 20356317
--------------------------------------------------------------4: Psychopharmacology (Berl) 1995 Sep;121(2):173-9
The additive effects of quinine on antidepressant drugs in the forced swimming test in mice.
Guo WY, Todd KG, Bourin M, Hascoet M
Laboratoire de Pharmacologie et GIS Medicament, Faculte de Medicine, Universite de Nantes, France.
The aim of this study was to investigate if quinine plus antidepressant drugs (ADS) leads to an additive effect in the forced swimming test. Quinine (0.125, 0.5 mg/kg) and ADS (subactive doses) were given IP 45 and 30 min, respectively, before the test. When combined with QUIN, all drugs that act via inhibition of 5-HT uptake (imipramine, amitriptyline, citalopram, paroxetine, fluoxetine and fluvoxamine) significantly increased the swimming time of mice. Among trazodone, mianserin and iprindole (atypical ADS), only iprindole combined with quinine decreased the immobility (increased swimming) of the animals. The specific noradrenaline (NA) uptake inhibitors, desipramine and viloxazine, but not maprotiline, were also found to reduce the immobility time when pretreated with quinine. The mixed monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitor (pargyline) and MAO-A inhibitor (moclobemide) also shortened the period of immobility whereas the MAO-B inhibitor (nialamide) and the dopamine (DA) uptake inhibitor (bupropion) did not. Quinine's additive effects on several types of ADS is likely a result of blockade of potassium channels.
PMID: 8545522, UI: 96117729
Posted by Anna P. on November 7, 2000, at 19:57:22
In reply to Re:ATTENTION ANERGIC DEPRESSION SUFFERERS » Anna P., posted by SLS on November 7, 2000, at 16:43:26
> Hi Anna.
>
> Thanks for replying.
>
> I had always known viloxazine as a NE reuptake inhibitor. When I reviewed the Medline database, I could not find anything that would contradict this, although there may be some variabilitly in the conclusions of its relative potency.
>
> I am still intrigued by your choice. What led you to choose viloxazine? I would definitely be interested in trying it given your results with it. For some reason, I recall a post stating that it is no longer being manufactured. Do you know anything about it? What countries currently market this drug? I'm pretty sure France had.
>
> Thanks again.
>
Scott, I had chosen Viloxazine because of lack of choices. Also, I was inspired by new book by Dr Stahl. I'm allergic to Wellbutrin, which was one of my best drugs, and I can't take stimulants. Recently I've failed Parnate - got a chest pain, an allergy again.
So I was looking for alternatives. Please pay attention that Viloxazine doesn't work by itself, only with Neurontin. I will try to decrease Reboxetine, and see what happens.
I was also thinking about combining Viloxazine-Serzone or Reboxetine-Serzone. What do you think about those combos?
Dr Stahl in his last book "Psychopharmacology of depression and bipolar disorders" advises trying NDRI + NRI, such as Wellbutrin and Reboxetine. He calls it as double boosting of NE. He says some of the combos have synergistic action on the same monoamine neurotransmitter system. In a case of Bupropion and Reboxetine, NE actions of Bupropion are double-boosted by Reboxetine (also desipramine, maprotiline, nortriptiline or protriptiline).
Stahl says,(page 152)that boosting noradregenic neurotransmission may be useful in people with fatigue, apathy and cogniive slowing.Now, I thought Viloxazine is NDRI, just like Wellbutrin.
Scott, what happens when combining two ADs working on nonadreline system only? (Viloxazine and Reboxetine)
Is this not safe?Anna P.
> - Scott
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> : Acta Psychiatr Scand Suppl 2000;402:28-36
>
> Noradrenaline and serotonin reuptake inhibition as clinical principles: a review of antidepressant efficacy.
>
> Humble M
>
> Division of Psychiatry, Karolinska Institutet, Huddinge University Hospital,
> Sweden.
>
> [Medline record in process]
>
> Imipramine and other subsequently developed antidepressants produce numerous neurochemical effects, some of which presumably represent active antidepressant principles. Numerous studies have compared the efficacy of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) with noradrenaline reuptake inhibitors (NRIs) with variable selectivity, such as desipramine, lofepramine, viloxazine, maprotiline or oxaprotiline. Most studies have failed to show differences in response rates or subtype responsivity. However, in some studies NRIs appear to be superior to SSRIs as regards retardation and, conversely, SSRIs appear superior as regards anxiety symptoms. Furthermore, NRIs may be more effective than SSRIs in severe depression. The novel selective NRI reboxetine has been shown to be at least as effective as imipramine, desipramine and fluoxetine in the treatment of major depression. Moreover, reboxetine may also improve social functioning significantly more than fluoxetine providing a better quality of the remission.
>
> PMID: 10901156, UI: 20356317
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> 4: Psychopharmacology (Berl) 1995 Sep;121(2):173-9
>
> The additive effects of quinine on antidepressant drugs in the forced swimming test in mice.
>
> Guo WY, Todd KG, Bourin M, Hascoet M
>
> Laboratoire de Pharmacologie et GIS Medicament, Faculte de Medicine, Universite de Nantes, France.
>
> The aim of this study was to investigate if quinine plus antidepressant drugs (ADS) leads to an additive effect in the forced swimming test. Quinine (0.125, 0.5 mg/kg) and ADS (subactive doses) were given IP 45 and 30 min, respectively, before the test. When combined with QUIN, all drugs that act via inhibition of 5-HT uptake (imipramine, amitriptyline, citalopram, paroxetine, fluoxetine and fluvoxamine) significantly increased the swimming time of mice. Among trazodone, mianserin and iprindole (atypical ADS), only iprindole combined with quinine decreased the immobility (increased swimming) of the animals. The specific noradrenaline (NA) uptake inhibitors, desipramine and viloxazine, but not maprotiline, were also found to reduce the immobility time when pretreated with quinine. The mixed monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitor (pargyline) and MAO-A inhibitor (moclobemide) also shortened the period of immobility whereas the MAO-B inhibitor (nialamide) and the dopamine (DA) uptake inhibitor (bupropion) did not. Quinine's additive effects on several types of ADS is likely a result of blockade of potassium channels.
>
> PMID: 8545522, UI: 96117729
Posted by Anna P. on November 7, 2000, at 20:03:45
In reply to Re: JahL, posted by Anna P. on November 7, 2000, at 14:53:24
> > Hi Anna.
> > > >
> > > > Congratulations on yr success. It has inspired me to maybe give it (Viloxazine) a go. However the Pharmagroup site refuses to process my order. Not sure if it's my computer or the site. Did you have any problems? I was wondering if you might have an e-mail address or even a fax/fone no. for them??
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Jah.
> > >
> > > Jah, their e-mail address is remailer@pharmagroup.com.
> >
> > Thanks Anna, but this address rtns yr mail & refers you to the 'Contact Us' page. Herein lies the problem; the contact no.s don't show up (at least not on my computer) on this page.
> >
> > Are you able to access this info? (I presume you must've since you've ordered) I'd be grateful if you could help; Pharmagroup are holding a load of meds I'd like to try augmenting with!(was there an address on the confirmation e-mail they say they'll send?)
> >
> > Many thanks,
> > Jah.
>
>
> Jah, here is the fax number to pharma group 1-435-808-2557. I hope this helps.
They've recently modified their web site, and you can get there only if you have Internet Explorer.
I understand your frustrations - I was in the same boat.
Good luck.Anna P.
Posted by JahL on November 7, 2000, at 21:22:34
In reply to Re: JahL again, posted by Anna P. on November 7, 2000, at 20:03:45
Jah, here is the fax number to pharma group 1-435-808-2557. I hope this helps.
> They've recently modified their web site, and you can get there only if you have Internet Explorer.
> I understand your frustrations - I was in the same boat.
> Good luck.
>
> Anna P.
Posted by SLS on November 7, 2000, at 21:28:18
In reply to Re:ATTENTION ANERGIC DEPRESSION SUFFERERS, posted by Anna P. on November 7, 2000, at 19:57:22
Hi again.
> Scott, I had chosen Viloxazine because of lack of choices.
Also, I was inspired by new book by Dr Stahl.> So I was looking for alternatives. Please pay attention that Viloxazine doesn't work by itself, only with Neurontin.
How did you discover that Neurontin was necessary? Was it through personal experience or did you read it in Dr. Stahl's book?
> I was also thinking about combining Viloxazine-Serzone or Reboxetine-Serzone. What do you think about those combos?
They seem like safe enough combinations to me. They are certainly complementary since they target different transmitter systems. You know, I don't think I remember reading of anyone combining Serzone with a potent NRI (tricyclics, reboxetine, maprotiline). I would like to know more about it. I brought up to my doctor the possibility of adding Serzone to the Parnate I am currently taking. However, I really don't like what I am feeling and not feeling on Parnate. I don't think there is enough there to work with. I would rather be on Nardil at this point.
> Dr Stahl in his last book "Psychopharmacology of depression and bipolar disorders" advises trying NDRI + NRI, such as Wellbutrin and Reboxetine. He calls it as double boosting of NE. He says some of the combos have synergistic action on the same monoamine neurotransmitter system. In a case of Bupropion and Reboxetine, NE actions of Bupropion are double-boosted by Reboxetine (also desipramine, maprotiline, nortriptiline or protriptiline).
Thank you for citing Dr. Stahl's book.
Not that I'm recommending it, but some have used yohimbine, a NE alpha-2 antagonist to boost the effects of tricyclics. Mirtazapine (Remeron) is also a NE alpha-2 antagonist (along with its ability to block 5-HT2 and 5-HT3 receptors). Blockade of the NE alpha-2 receptor leads to an increase in the synthesis and release of norepinephrine. The idea is that this works synergistically with the NE reuptake inhibition of the NRIs.
> Stahl says,(page 152)that boosting noradregenic neurotransmission may be useful in people with fatigue, apathy and cogniive slowing.
>
> Now, I thought Viloxazine is NDRI, just like Wellbutrin.No. I double checked Medline again, and there are no references to viloxazine other than its ability to selectively and fairly potently inhibit the reuptake of norepinephrine. Whatever you are doing, you are on the right track. Sometimes, one must forego the idea that they can choose drugs with precision based upon the *known* putative mechanisms of action they possess.
> Scott, what happens when combining two ADs working on nonadreline system only? (Viloxazine and Reboxetine)
> Is this not safe?I have no reason to believe that they aren't safe. My only concern would be to monitor for changes in cardiac function. Reboxetine alone can produce tachycardia (increased heart rate) and rhythym irregularities. Viloxazine is supposed to be less apt to evoke cardiac irregulators, but is not without effect.
I doubt cardiac function will be an issue to the same extent it would be if your were using a tricyclic. It might be worth getting an EKG at some point.
I wish you continued success.
- Scott
Posted by Ash on November 8, 2000, at 9:47:28
In reply to Re:ATTENTION ANERGIC DEPRESSION SUFFERERS, posted by Anna P. on November 7, 2000, at 19:57:22
Anna:
The combination of bupropion(Wellbutrin) and nortriptyline might be TOO synergistic in boosting NE levels for some. I was on the above combo (400 mg and 100mg) , along with Cylert (pemoline, a stimulant) and suffered a grand mail seizure.
Ash
====================================================He calls it as double boosting of NE. He says some of the combos have synergistic action on the same monoamine neurotransmitter system. In a case of Bupropion and Reboxetine, NE actions of Bupropion are double-boosted by Reboxetine (also desipramine, maprotiline, nortriptiline or protriptiline).
> Stahl says,(page 152)that boosting noradregenic neurotransmission may be useful in people with fatigue, apathy and cogniive slowing.
>
> Now, I thought Viloxazine is NDRI, just like Wellbutrin.
> Scott, what happens when combining two ADs working on nonadreline system only? (Viloxazine and Reboxetine)
> Is this not safe?
>
> Anna P.
> > - Scott
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > : Acta Psychiatr Scand Suppl 2000;402:28-36
> >
> > Noradrenaline and serotonin reuptake inhibition as clinical principles: a review of antidepressant efficacy.
> >
> > Humble M
> >
> > Division of Psychiatry, Karolinska Institutet, Huddinge University Hospital,
> > Sweden.
> >
> > [Medline record in process]
> >
> > Imipramine and other subsequently developed antidepressants produce numerous neurochemical effects, some of which presumably represent active antidepressant principles. Numerous studies have compared the efficacy of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) with noradrenaline reuptake inhibitors (NRIs) with variable selectivity, such as desipramine, lofepramine, viloxazine, maprotiline or oxaprotiline. Most studies have failed to show differences in response rates or subtype responsivity. However, in some studies NRIs appear to be superior to SSRIs as regards retardation and, conversely, SSRIs appear superior as regards anxiety symptoms. Furthermore, NRIs may be more effective than SSRIs in severe depression. The novel selective NRI reboxetine has been shown to be at least as effective as imipramine, desipramine and fluoxetine in the treatment of major depression. Moreover, reboxetine may also improve social functioning significantly more than fluoxetine providing a better quality of the remission.
> >
> > PMID: 10901156, UI: 20356317
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > 4: Psychopharmacology (Berl) 1995 Sep;121(2):173-9
> >
> > The additive effects of quinine on antidepressant drugs in the forced swimming test in mice.
> >
> > Guo WY, Todd KG, Bourin M, Hascoet M
> >
> > Laboratoire de Pharmacologie et GIS Medicament, Faculte de Medicine, Universite de Nantes, France.
> >
> > The aim of this study was to investigate if quinine plus antidepressant drugs (ADS) leads to an additive effect in the forced swimming test. Quinine (0.125, 0.5 mg/kg) and ADS (subactive doses) were given IP 45 and 30 min, respectively, before the test. When combined with QUIN, all drugs that act via inhibition of 5-HT uptake (imipramine, amitriptyline, citalopram, paroxetine, fluoxetine and fluvoxamine) significantly increased the swimming time of mice. Among trazodone, mianserin and iprindole (atypical ADS), only iprindole combined with quinine decreased the immobility (increased swimming) of the animals. The specific noradrenaline (NA) uptake inhibitors, desipramine and viloxazine, but not maprotiline, were also found to reduce the immobility time when pretreated with quinine. The mixed monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitor (pargyline) and MAO-A inhibitor (moclobemide) also shortened the period of immobility whereas the MAO-B inhibitor (nialamide) and the dopamine (DA) uptake inhibitor (bupropion) did not. Quinine's additive effects on several types of ADS is likely a result of blockade of potassium channels.
> >
> > PMID: 8545522, UI: 96117729
Posted by Anna P. on November 8, 2000, at 21:40:50
In reply to Re:ATTENTION ANERGIC DEPRESSION SUFFERERS, posted by SLS on November 7, 2000, at 21:28:18
> Hi again.
I found more info on Viloxazine. I'm concerned, and I dropped Reboxetine from my combo today after having heavily increased heart rate.
According to my research , I know that Viloxazine is contradicted with Carbamazepine, as it increases its blood level.
How about Neurontin?
I need to take Neurontin as it makes ADs to work to some extent.
Viloxazine works with Neurontin for now.
But I've found out that a drug has the anticonvulsant and proconvulsant properties.1.Psychopharmacology (Berl) 1982;76(3):212-7
Anticonvulsant and proconvulsant properties of Viloxazine hydrochloride: pharmacological and pharmacokinetic studies in rodents and the epileptic baboon.2.Neuropsychobiology 1987:17(1-2):35-40
Viloxazine as a betamimetic antidepressant drugA comparison was made between the effects of maprotiline, the sole action of which is to inhibit the reuptake of noradrenaline, of salbutamol and of viloxazine on hypothermia induced by reserpine, oxotremorine or apomorphine. The dose/effect curves in the three tests showed a similarity in profile between viloxazine and salbutamol, whereas no resemblance was evident between these two drugs and maprotiline. These facts suggest that viloxazine which has a weak effect on noradrenaline reuptake acts probably as antidepressant by betamimetic activity.
Scott, what does betamimetic activity means?
Anna P.
Posted by Anna P. on November 8, 2000, at 22:02:30
In reply to Re:More on Viloxazine. Betamimetic AD? Scott, posted by Anna P. on November 8, 2000, at 21:40:50
> >
>
> 1.Psychopharmacology (Berl) 1982;76(3):212-7
> Anticonvulsant and proconvulsant properties of Viloxazine hydrochloride: pharmacological and pharmacokinetic studies in rodents and the epileptic baboon.
>
> 2.Neuropsychobiology 1987:17(1-2):35-40
> Viloxazine as a betamimetic antidepressant drug
>
> A comparison was made between the effects of maprotiline, the sole action of which is to inhibit the reuptake of noradrenaline, of salbutamol and of viloxazine on hypothermia induced by reserpine, oxotremorine or apomorphine. The dose/effect curves in the three tests showed a similarity in profile between viloxazine and salbutamol, whereas no resemblance was evident between these two drugs and maprotiline. These facts suggest that viloxazine which has a weak effect on noradrenaline reuptake acts probably as antidepressant by betamimetic activity.
>
> More...1.Minerva Med 1989 May:80(5):475-82
Nonpsychotic involutional inhibited depression and psycho-organic deteriorations:treatment with Viloxazine and piracetam.
...This report claims that combined viloxazine-piracetam is the most apropriate treatment for involutional depression. This approach
(200 mg oral viloxazine and 9 g oral piracetam a day)was adopted for 3 months in 33 outpatients about 64 years old who were subsequenly put on maintenance oses (100 mg viloxazine, 3 g piracetam a day).
The variuos Hamilton scale parameters were assessed as were reaction times to auditory and visual simple stimuli. Result sat the start and end of treatment were then compared. About three quaters of the patients showed improvement in both depression and psycho-organic syndrome symptoms, while total remission or lasting improvement in both pathologies was obtained in about 50 %.Anna P.
0
Posted by SLS on November 8, 2000, at 22:27:44
In reply to Re:More on Viloxazine. Betamimetic AD? Scott, posted by Anna P. on November 8, 2000, at 21:40:50
Dear Anna,
betamimetic = mimic beta stimulation
What I think they mean is that viloxazine somehow selectively stimulates NE beta receptors and not the other noradrenergic receptors. When stimulated, these NE beta receptors act to increase heart-rate and blood pressure. This is why beta blockers like Inderal are useful in treating hypertension and controlling heart-rate.
I don't know enough about viloxazine to know whether its betamimetic properties are produced by a mechanism other than NE reuptake inhibition. If it does, reboxetine + viloxazine would produce an increase in heart-rate greater than reboxetine + tricyclic.
I hope this explanation is helpful.
- Scott
> > Hi again.
>
> I found more info on Viloxazine. I'm concerned, and I dropped Reboxetine from my combo today after having heavily increased heart rate.
> According to my research , I know that Viloxazine is contradicted with Carbamazepine, as it increases its blood level.
> How about Neurontin?
> I need to take Neurontin as it makes ADs to work to some extent.
> Viloxazine works with Neurontin for now.
> But I've found out that a drug has the anticonvulsant and proconvulsant properties.
>
> 1.Psychopharmacology (Berl) 1982;76(3):212-7
> Anticonvulsant and proconvulsant properties of Viloxazine hydrochloride: pharmacological and pharmacokinetic studies in rodents and the epileptic baboon.
>
> 2.Neuropsychobiology 1987:17(1-2):35-40
> Viloxazine as a betamimetic antidepressant drug
>
> A comparison was made between the effects of maprotiline, the sole action of which is to inhibit the reuptake of noradrenaline, of salbutamol and of viloxazine on hypothermia induced by reserpine, oxotremorine or apomorphine. The dose/effect curves in the three tests showed a similarity in profile between viloxazine and salbutamol, whereas no resemblance was evident between these two drugs and maprotiline. These facts suggest that viloxazine which has a weak effect on noradrenaline reuptake acts probably as antidepressant by betamimetic activity.
>
> Scott, what does betamimetic activity means?
>
> Anna P.
Posted by dove on November 9, 2000, at 11:08:58
In reply to Re:ATTENTION ANERGIC DEPRESSION SUFFERERS, posted by SLS on November 7, 2000, at 21:28:18
>
>You know, I don't think I remember reading of anyone combining Serzone with a potent NRI (tricyclics, reboxetine, maprotiline).
>My current med combo includes Serzone, Neurontin, and Amitriptyline (and Adderall). The biggest change in the positive direction so far has been the addition of Neurontin to the other three meds. I have also utilized Wellbutrin with Amitriptyline, Prozac, Adderall, and Serzone; but the Wellbutrin did very little even in combo with those other meds. I had been dxed in the past with epilepsy (now believed to be migraine w/ aura and fainting of unknown origins?), but none of the above med combo's triggered anything but a plain old massive migraine and some little self-destructive tendencies.
Also, I don't believe I have anergic depression, except for when I'm in the darkest of pits, which completely immobilizes me on all fronts. With the symptoms, characteristics, and dxes of ADHD, Bipolar (ultra-fast rapid cycling subtype), anxiety, panic, blah, blah, blah; you'll notice a general flavor to the theme, and that does not include anergic in any manner. So... Maybe there's opposing mechanisms of chemical reactions and dynamics that might give some clues/hints as to a particular system's faultiness???
Darn it! I want a PhD, its not fair, I'm just not smart enough, nor am I driven enough! But you guys are almost there, degree or no degree :-)
dove
Posted by Anna P. on November 16, 2000, at 1:14:57
In reply to ATTENTION ALL ANERGIC DEPRESSION SUFFERERS!, posted by Anna P. on November 6, 2000, at 10:21:12
> I just tried Viloxazine and it had battled my anergia so far as well as SAD.
> I feel full of energy the first time since a long time.
> I take it with 4 mg Reboxetine, 50 mg Viloxazine and 300 Neurontin to prevent poop-out, and it works so far.
> Viloxazine may be purchased from Pharma group without prescription. It's the energizing drug, no side effects, no sexual side effects, and probably no major weight gain.
>
>
> References:
>
> 1. Sebjanic V, Grombein S. Adv Biochem Psychopharmacol 1982:32113-20
> Viloxazine in depression: results of a field trial of 276 patients in neuropsychiatric practice.
>
> 2. Poldinger W. Dtsch Med Wochenschr 1982 Apr 30: 107 (17):661-5 Double blind comparison of the antidepressives viloxazine and impiramine.
>
> 3. Schaffer JD at al. Int Pharmacopsychiatry 1982: 17(1):36-42 A collaborative study of a new antidepressant Viloxazine, in neurotic and endogenous depressives.
>
>
> Of course everyone mileage may vary, what happens a miracle for me, may not be working for another person. Our chemistries are different.
>
>
> Reboxetine didn't work with Viloxazine. I've got some crying symptoms which I didn't have before - it was a time to stop the combo.
Too much of NE wasn't I guess good for me.
I would be wise to start Viloxazine on its own.Anna P.
Posted by Paul d on November 19, 2000, at 5:41:50
In reply to Re: Reboxetine/Viloxazine update, posted by Anna P. on November 16, 2000, at 1:14:57
Everybody here seems very smart. I've never seen so much cool chat about trying new meds.
Here's my update, I quit Zoloft last fall. Kept Adderall. But ordered Reboxetine (later tried Vigil something) thinking either would be like a perma coffee mood and maybe help some add.
At first I felt swell. I wanted to work a lot. I think I worked like flash gordon for a minute, my bosses were impressed. My dj skills got anxiously better and more intense, as did the music. I felt like I was rolling some which was not my intent, and wasn't very pleasant. Of course I still took my adderall. But needless to say, some of my adhd benefited at first.
I learned the hard way, of course, always check with your doc, because I didn't. Both NARI's backfired on my ass. Social skills became, and please quote me, "all talk, and no action." ie. . I felt like and said I could do anything, but became to anxious to do anything. I cried for no reason! I couldn't have sex. I couldn't shut up! As you can sense now, I'm talkative.
My god it was a nightmare. I ended up so freaked out by it after a week or so, that I couldn't go to classes. My eyes would be bloodshot sometimes. I would be driving my car and felt as if the earth was dropping out from underneath me. I had to reassure myself that all was good and I wasn't falling. I would be mega sensitive to the faintest sound. I now never will forget what they mean by fight (no fighting), flight or fright. Sounds like Jacobs Ladder. I ended up paranoied into my own bathroom! My god, that's worse then a bad trip!
Clearly, I am a total dumbass. If anybody needs free reboxetine (Edronax) or that other shit, I've got some. Seriously, FREE, in blister strips. It's my reward for anybody who actually read my horror story. I hope that it fairs well for you.
I guess I don't need the NA stuff, it's the DA that might help me with adhd. But these dumbasses who make medicine insist that NA rules and include it in everything. And clearly, for some people it does rule.
Should I tell my doctor of my mischevous lesson? Maybe it would give him insight into my chemistry.
One thing I later learned was the Zoloft decrease NA some, so if that's correct, I might have had good reason to think that a NARI would have helped me then. Of course I may have misunderstood the information about SSRI and NA. I didn't do so hot in Psychopharmacology, then again it wasn't my major.
I hope you all no what you're doing! But if it doesn't work for you, remember me and think, "it could have been worse."
Posted by JohnB on November 19, 2000, at 13:56:16
In reply to Re: Reboxetine/Viloxazine update, posted by Paul d on November 19, 2000, at 5:41:50
Paul,
What dosage of Rebox were you taking?
Posted by Anna P. on November 19, 2000, at 18:35:27
In reply to Re: Reboxetine/Viloxazine update » Paul d, posted by JohnB on November 19, 2000, at 13:56:16
> Paul,
>
> Paul, I understand how you felt. I just want to say one thing. When my Zoloft stopped working 3 years ago, I was seeing by two doctors. None of them helped me. They kept switching me into a different meds instead, mostly SSRI's.
I didn't know at that time that augmentation exists. If Desipramine or a stimulant was added to Zoloft at that time, it would save 3 years of my life. That's why I decided to learn about psychopharmacology as much as I could, and I'm thankful for this site.Anna P.
Posted by PhoenixGirl on November 20, 2000, at 18:46:32
In reply to Re: Reboxetine/Viloxazine update, posted by Paul d on November 19, 2000, at 5:41:50
Hi Paul,
Someone has probably already taken up your offer for your reboxetine and viloxazine, but if not, I am interested. My email is thephoenixgirl@hotmail.com.
Thank you!
> Everybody here seems very smart. I've never seen so much cool chat about trying new meds.
>
> Here's my update, I quit Zoloft last fall. Kept Adderall. But ordered Reboxetine (later tried Vigil something) thinking either would be like a perma coffee mood and maybe help some add.
>
> At first I felt swell. I wanted to work a lot. I think I worked like flash gordon for a minute, my bosses were impressed. My dj skills got anxiously better and more intense, as did the music. I felt like I was rolling some which was not my intent, and wasn't very pleasant. Of course I still took my adderall. But needless to say, some of my adhd benefited at first.
>
> I learned the hard way, of course, always check with your doc, because I didn't. Both NARI's backfired on my ass. Social skills became, and please quote me, "all talk, and no action." ie. . I felt like and said I could do anything, but became to anxious to do anything. I cried for no reason! I couldn't have sex. I couldn't shut up! As you can sense now, I'm talkative.
>
> My god it was a nightmare. I ended up so freaked out by it after a week or so, that I couldn't go to classes. My eyes would be bloodshot sometimes. I would be driving my car and felt as if the earth was dropping out from underneath me. I had to reassure myself that all was good and I wasn't falling. I would be mega sensitive to the faintest sound. I now never will forget what they mean by fight (no fighting), flight or fright. Sounds like Jacobs Ladder. I ended up paranoied into my own bathroom! My god, that's worse then a bad trip!
>
> Clearly, I am a total dumbass. If anybody needs free reboxetine (Edronax) or that other shit, I've got some. Seriously, FREE, in blister strips. It's my reward for anybody who actually read my horror story. I hope that it fairs well for you.
>
> I guess I don't need the NA stuff, it's the DA that might help me with adhd. But these dumbasses who make medicine insist that NA rules and include it in everything. And clearly, for some people it does rule.
>
> Should I tell my doctor of my mischevous lesson? Maybe it would give him insight into my chemistry.
>
> One thing I later learned was the Zoloft decrease NA some, so if that's correct, I might have had good reason to think that a NARI would have helped me then. Of course I may have misunderstood the information about SSRI and NA. I didn't do so hot in Psychopharmacology, then again it wasn't my major.
>
> I hope you all no what you're doing! But if it doesn't work for you, remember me and think, "it could have been worse."
This is the end of the thread.
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