![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Janice on July 4, 2000, at 23:34:50
I hope you're doing okay. I've been thinking of you the past few days, and I did as I promised said quite a few prayers to God for you. You always sound so knowledgeable and together, helping other people on psychobabble. I just want to give you my support because I know it's hard it is to get it in real life. I hope you get out of the hospital soon.
I know you were interested in the vagus nerve stimulator. I have found an article at this address that includes some information for bipolar people pslgroup.com/dg/15131a.htm
Take care Chris A, Janice
Posted by Chris A. on July 6, 2000, at 18:14:32
In reply to Chris A…are you out there?, posted by Janice on July 4, 2000, at 23:34:50
Dear Janice,
Thanks very much for your prayers. They probably
help more than
anything else.
Today is better. Perhaps I wouldn't have become so
desperate as to
attempt suicide
- to end the pain - if I had continued with ECT.
The cognitive side
effects (confusion
and significant memory loss) were escalating. They
are still a
problem, as are the
dysphoric hypomania, the rapid cycling and the
depression that
never quits. I'm not
sure where that all fits into the DSM IV.
Ninety-nine percent of
ADs, stimulants and
their relatives, not to mention neuroleptics scare
me because of
the cycling and bit of
TD I have experienced. Mood stabilizers simply
haven't worked.
Nimodipine was
stabilizing - at about zero on a depression scale
of one to ten. We
are back to
lamotrigine. It's hard to be optimistic when it
hasn't worked well
in the past. My
consultant had even questioned as to whether it
contributed to my
cycling, although
there were no other evident adverse effects. We
are still exploring
the unlikely
possibility of Hashimoto's related encephalopathy.
We're changing
my ERT back to
one that also targets the brain instead of the
selective raloxifine
(Evista) that I've been
on. The risk vs. benefit picture is one that my
Gyn will frown on.
The biopsies get
rather old after so long. We're also looking at an
additional
consult with someone
who can put the endo, mood disorder and gyn pieces
together in a
complete puzzle.
Thanks for the VNS site. I am holding off to see
what further
clinical trials show. It's
hard to forget the "honey-moon" effect surrounding
the origianl
rTMS trials. I was
ready to get on a plane for Charleston, but
thankful that I didn't.
It would be good to
visit with our friends who had a VNS implanted in
their son this
spring to treat severe
epilepsy. That reminds me, I still have their
video put out by
Cyberonics for patients
and families. VNS might be the answer, but I am
not ready to jump,
just as I am not
ready to jump into getting meds from overseas just
yet. We lived
overseas for
several years and were not necessarily impressed
by some of the
medication
approval procedures employed. Is anything that's
pharmacologically
active
completely free of potential side effects? Some of
us that are
quite sensitive to
adverse effects have to be especially careful.
How is the topirimate trial going? It has
definitely been effective
for some treatment
resistant bipolar patients and I hope and pray you
are among them,
as you have
been through the trenchs and hope that they aren't
in your future.
For today I am planning on staying out of the
hospital and out of
the morgue. It isn't
good for families and probably isn't what God had
in mind.Blessings to a caring and valuable friend,
Chris A.
Posted by Janice on July 6, 2000, at 23:57:32
In reply to Re: Janice - Yes, I'm still out here, posted by Chris A. on July 6, 2000, at 18:14:32
Hi Chris,
Great to see your post. I wonder about my prayers, sometimes they work, sometimes it seems like Gods got them on hold or something. Well it's good to hear your doing a little better and making plans for more treatment, and in other areas than just psychiatrict.
I don't believe the DSM IV is all that accurate to reality. Isn't there a line in there about rapid cyclers not always being rapid cyclers. Good to hear you haven't exhausted your options, that still you have the overseas medication if you need to use them (and I'm sure there are many of them)
Topirimate is being very good to me. Moodwise, I've stopped rapid cycling, although sleepwise the cycle is the same (no sleep, then hyper sleep). I am about 90% there. Like you, I've been through the trenches, and am still fishing out what normal is.
Well I will continue to be sending great thoughts your way, Janice
Posted by Chris A. on July 7, 2000, at 7:45:25
In reply to hi Chris…, posted by Janice on July 6, 2000, at 23:57:32
Dear Janice,Glad to hear this-
> Topirimate is being very good to me. Moodwise, I've stopped rapid cycling, although sleepwise the cycle is the same (no sleep, then hyper sleep).
Sleep is essential. I'm glad to hear that the topirimate is working. At the moment waking up two hours after I take my Ambien isn't working. I get agitated and desperate. Calling the pDoc on call at 2:00 a.m. out of frustration is probably inappropriate. There is a lot that needs to be done around here and I am having trouble functioning. Without sleep, functioning is hard to come by, as is sanity. My inlaws will be here next week and the place is a disaster. They are nice people, but are clueless about bipolar. Perhaps I'm paranoid, but I fear being judged for not being able to "pull it together." My husband is kind, but he is way over extended. Everyone wants a piece of him. Fixing a meal is a major accomplishment. I don't even know if my husband has filled them in on the four hospitalizations and the twenty ECT treatments in the past six months. I don't want him to mention the suicide attempt and am pretty sure he won't. My daughter is leaving for camp, has her right arm in a splint and can't even fold her clothes to pack for herself. My immature 19 year old son is home briefly, harassing me and needing help getting his affairs in order to leave for a remote assignmnet for a year. He took my car yesterday without consulting me and as a result I missed an important appointment. His ADHD is fairly serious, but he is in denial. He came close to seriously injuring the youngest the other day - flipping her over and dumping her on her head. Other than some pain in the area of a thoracic vertebra, she seems to be ok. He won't shut up. I want terribly to sneak him some Ritalin, as it is like flipping switch for him. He becomes a different, much more calm, manageable and pleasant person. He can even stop to think sometimes before he acts when medicated. Hopefully he isn't bipolar - no signs of depression yet. I do well to take my meds and brush my teeth, let alone take care of a billion details. It is really tempting to just disappear because I can't handle it. Perhaps I should pour on the benzos, but don't want to get addicted. Perhaps it would be better than pulling out my hair or bailing out. Relax??? Arghhh...
I am about 90% there. Like you, I've been through the trenches, and am still fishing out what normal is.
Ninety percent - that's encouraging. Go for the other ten percent. I'm behind you all the way.
Thanks for the thoughts. I do think your prayers must work or I wouldn't be alive to write this. One day at a time.
Best, (please forgive me for ranting)
Chris
P.S. Does anyone have any suggestions for getting a decent night's sleep?
Posted by Janice on July 8, 2000, at 0:14:04
In reply to Re: hi Janice…someone please teach us how to sleep, posted by Chris A. on July 7, 2000, at 7:45:25
hi Chris,
Yes, sleep is the trick. It was you who shared with me your tricks for good sleep hygiene, and it is a wonderful theory. Oh God, without sleep everything is worse, mania, depression, irritability, paranoia (I'm prone to that one too). I know that no sleeping, very sick, very worried about tomorrow, frantic, making things even worse feeling… Eeeeekkkks 2 hours has just gone by, EEEEEEeeeeekkkkkkkksssssss 4 hours, 6 hours.
'four hospitalizations and the twenty ECT treatments in the past six months. I don't want him to mention the suicide attempt and am pretty sure he won't.'
Not good small talk. I didn't realize you've had so many hospitalizations Chris. I've only been hospitalized twice (once for anorexia and once for mania) and both times I had a sense of relief that at least for a little while I didn't have to look after myself. Once they discover the 'suicide gene or genes', I won't have it. Sounds like you may. I want to be dead and I have horrendous impulse control, but I've only made one feeble attempt at it.
I hope your family cuts you some slack Chris, or maybe it is that your vunerable and your stress threshold is low. And your son, I wish I were this young and invinsible again. Sounds exactly like youth and ADHD as I know it. What about some Ritalin in the mashed potatos and cereal???????? I'd make a terrible mother.
Benzos for sleeping. Sounds like a decent plan to me. I guess you've tried stimulants.
I'll keep praying for you Chris, no problem. My brother told me there is some kind of evidence (not quite scientific) that it works.
I keep thinking of you and hoping good things for you. Please rant all you like, Janice
the decent night sleep:
2 things that seem to help other than pills:
I run for a minimum of 20 minutes 4 hours before bed (I'm in good shape so you may want to walk fast)
1-2 hours before bed, I take a bath with Epsoms salts for 20 minutes (not a shower)
then drink a chamomile tea
the important thing for me is to have a ritual, but I'm sure you know all this. do the benzos!
Posted by SLS on July 8, 2000, at 8:59:24
In reply to hi Chris (I tried), posted by Janice on July 8, 2000, at 0:14:04
> I'll keep praying for you Chris, no problem. My brother told me there is some kind of evidence (not quite scientific) that it works
:-) Your brother is right.
There have actually been scientific investigations into the ability of prayer to help produce improvements in various illnesses. In 1992, I had read some stuff by a Dr. Larry Dossey, who had been a field surgeon in Viet Nam. He's a pretty smart guy. I think he was affiliated with the Mind-Body Institute at that time. Dossey and his colleagues seem to believe that some of the concepts offered by modern physics may explain how someone in Moscow can pray for someone in Cleveland and produce statistically significant enhancements to their healing. There have been placebo controlled, blinded experiments conducted that have claimed positive results demonstrating this phenomenon. Non-locality.
Interesting. Cool. I have an open mind. I certainly like the idea.
- Scott
P.S. Pray for me. I can use all the help I can get!
--------------------------------------------
The following appears on Medline:
19: Altern Ther Health Med 1996 Jan;2(1):66-73How prayer heals: a theoretical model.
Levin JS
Department of Family and Community Medicine, Eastern Virginia Medical School in
Norfolk 23501, USA.This article presents a theoretical model that outlines various possible
explanations for the healing effects of prayer. Four classes of mechanisms are
defined on the basis of whether healing has naturalistic or supernatural origins
and whether it operates locally or nonlocally. Through this framework, most of
the currently proposed hypotheses for understanding absent healing and other
related phenomena-hypotheses that invoke such concepts as subtle energy, psi,
consciousness, morphic fields, and extended mind-are shown to be no less
naturalistic than the Newtonian, mechanistic forces of allopathic biomedicine so
often derided for their materialism. In proposing that prayer may heal through
nonlocal means according to mechanisms and theories proposed by the new physics,
Dossey is almost alone among medical scholars in suggesting the possible
limitations and inadequacies of hypotheses based on energies, forces, and
fields. Yet even such nonlocal effects can be conceived of as naturalistic; that
is, they are explained by physical laws that may be unbelievable or unfamiliar
to most physicians but that are nonetheless becoming recognized as operant laws
of the natural universe. The concept of the supernatural, however, is something
altogether different, and is, by definition, outside of or beyond nature. Herein
may reside an either wholly or partly transcendent Creator-God who is believed
by many to heal through means that transcend the laws of the created universe,
both its local and nonlocal elements, and that are thus inherently inaccessible
to and unknowable by science. Such an explanation for the effects of prayer
merits consideration and, despite its unprovability by medical science, should
not be dismissed out of hand.Publication Types:
Review
Review, tutorialPMID: 8795874, UI: 96388473
Posted by Rick E. on July 8, 2000, at 11:15:58
In reply to hi Chris (I tried), posted by Janice on July 8, 2000, at 0:14:04
Hello Chris,
By no means do I have enough experience to give you great advice on sleeping, but I did go through a period on 20mg Paxil alone when I just could not get sleep, and when I did, I slept so lightly that I felt like I hadn't slept at all.
I take 7.5mg Remeron each night, which is, a 15mg pill cut in half. I did this on my own, as 15mg was too much for me, I was too tired all day to function in any real laborious way. I am not recommending this before talking to your doctor though, as I know there can be many side effects from mixing ADs.
It works well for me, though, seems to be fast-acting, and I take it right before bed, I am asleep in 10-15 minutes, which is actually better than I ever did without meds. Paxil alone keeps me up, but the minimal side effects of Remeron, for me, are worth the great sleep that I get.
Anyways, my 2 cents...
Best regards,
Rick E.
Posted by Janice on July 9, 2000, at 0:03:32
In reply to Re: hi Chris (I tried) - Prayer. Is it scientific?, posted by SLS on July 8, 2000, at 8:59:24
Hello Scott,
My brother is a scientist and every night he reminds me 'to pray for the head'. My family is French - the nickname he has given my manic depression translates to 'the head' in English - he thinks it sounds both funny and appropriate. He says he has been praying for 'the head' for many years now…and I'm doing pretty well.
So yes, I will gladly pray for 'the head' of Scott, as well as 'the head' of Chris.
Take care Janice.
and I sometimes wondered if my brother was the nut
Posted by Jennifer on July 10, 2000, at 1:05:17
In reply to SLS - Prayer. Is it scientific?, posted by Janice on July 9, 2000, at 0:03:32
> Scott and Chris,
>
I actually got my ^&*% out of bed and went to church this morning (while on vacation in the mountains I may add) and the discussion was on "praying for yourself first". I found this a bit odd, but the pastor explained that most pray for others who are "in need" of prayer, but forget themselves. By praying for yourself first, and asking for the strength to "complete the task at hand" - whatever it may be, you will then be able to help others with their needs. Makes sense to me. So, I'm off to bed soon, and I'll pray for myself, and then for you!
Jennifer
Posted by SLS on July 10, 2000, at 8:16:16
In reply to Re: SLS - Prayer. Is it scientific?, posted by Jennifer on July 10, 2000, at 1:05:17
> I actually got my ^&*% out of bed and went to church this morning (while on vacation in the mountains I may add) and the discussion was on "praying for yourself first". I found this a bit odd, but the pastor explained that most pray for others who are "in need" of prayer, but forget themselves. By praying for yourself first, and asking for the strength to "complete the task at hand" - whatever it may be, you will then be able to help others with their needs. Makes sense to me. So, I'm off to bed soon, and I'll pray for myself, and then for you!
> Jennifer
Yes, I find praying for others to be extremely easy.I find it very difficult to pray for myself. I am not very religious, but I am spiritual. I use the word God freely, as it suits my spirituality. I established a relationship with God a long time ago, and have made my peace with Him regarding the life I have been chosen to deal with. I figure that He knows what I want and what I need, so why would I need to pray to Him on my own behalf?
These last few months have been pretty difficult for me. I was nearing desperation (not that I am so far removed from it right now). As I lied in bed one morning last week, I found myself praying for myself in a way I don't recall doing in perhaps twenty years. It felt as if I had allowed a wall of "strength" to come down. This was a change for me, yet it was soothingly familiar. It felt good. I haven't prayed for myself since. I guess the wall of strength and independence has been raised again. It serves to protect me in some way. I feel less vulnerable and more apt to persevere through pain. I feel as if praying for myself is an admission of defeat and represents a step along the way towards losing my battle for life. This feels safe, but I guess it doesn't feel healthy or right.
Jennifer - Thank you for posting this. I may consider praying for myself more often.
- Scott
Posted by Kath on July 10, 2000, at 15:42:55
In reply to Re: hi Janice…someone please teach us how to sleep, posted by Chris A. on July 7, 2000, at 7:45:25
Hi Chris - The thing that helps me sleep if I'm having trouble is this: a mug of warmed milk with honey & a couple of calcium pills.
Kath.
Posted by Jennifer on July 11, 2000, at 1:24:55
In reply to Re: SLS - Prayer. Is it scientific?, posted by SLS on July 10, 2000, at 8:16:16
Scott,
>
> Yes, I find praying for others to be extremely easy.As do I, so know that you are deeply being prayed for tonight.
>
> I find it very difficult to pray for myself. I am not very religious, but I am spiritual. I use the word God freely, as it suits my spirituality. I established a relationship with God a long time ago, and have made my peace with Him regarding the life I have been chosen to deal with. I figure that He knows what I want and what I need, so why would I need to pray to Him on my own behalf?Perhaps because He does know what you want, and what you need, but He also gave you free will. Those choices put before us are always so difficult. On the days (or nights) that I don't want to be here anymore, I wonder if He knows how much pain I feel. But he must. He knows that I will think of all that I have, and that I have things to finish. Sometimes I wonder if I have to deal with this because he knows that I can. If suffering on earth is rewarded in heaven, then I'm really in for one heck of an eternity. Obviously he has more faith in myself than I do. I have been working toward having more faith in Him, although it is difficult. I have always had my own spiritual side, but have found myself needing to be more "religious". Is it because I need more strength than I think I have? I have to drag myself to church (when I go), but then something is said there that hits home. Brings down that "wall of protection" as you stated. I really think that in praying for yourself, you get little hints in which "choice" to make each day with your free will.
>
> This was a change for me, yet it was soothingly familiar. It felt good. I haven't prayed for myself since. I guess the wall of strength and independence has been raised again. It serves to protect me in some way. I feel less vulnerable and more apt to persevere through pain. I feel as if praying for myself is an admission of defeat and represents a step along the way towards losing my battle for life. This feels safe, but I guess it doesn't feel healthy or right.I had to delete part of your message so I wouldn't read it again. I found myself near tears and with that "heavy chest" feeling, knowing exactly how you feel. I can't stand it. At any rate, I don't feel that praying for yourself is an admission of defeat. To be defeated, you would have nothing left, and He knows that you do. Perhaps by praying He can help you "feel" inside the reason to continue, instead of despair and defeat. I'm having quite a hard time with this message. I'm sorry. But it just hits to close to my heart. Sleep well. Pray hard. Live. Jennifer
Posted by KarenB on July 11, 2000, at 13:50:23
In reply to hi Chris…, posted by Janice on July 6, 2000, at 23:57:32
> I wonder about my prayers, sometimes they work, sometimes it seems like Gods got them on hold or something.
Janice: Sometimes He says "yes", sometimes "no", sometimes "wait," and sometimes, "You've got to be kidding me." We can always be assured, though, that even when we disagree or don't understand the reasons WHY, He alway does what is best in the big scheme of things. We just don't see the bigger picture. It would probably scare the hell out of us if we could.
JMHO.
Please e-mail me.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Chris: You are still here because God wants you here. You are an encouragement to more people than you know. I will continue praying for you, regardless of the answers, my friend. I hope it gets MUCH better for you, very soon.
I have a question though: If you believe that suicide is a possible option, why then would overseas meds make you nervous? Whatever the side effects, how bad could they be, compared to being insane or leaving your family? You don't have to answer this if you don't want to.
You are loved. You are important. Stick around, would you?
Karen
Posted by SLS on July 11, 2000, at 15:08:46
In reply to Re: SLS - Prayer., posted by Jennifer on July 11, 2000, at 1:24:55
> Perhaps by praying He can help you "feel" inside the reason to continue, instead of despair and defeat.
This hit home. Thank you.
Love,
Scott
Posted by Opolonio on July 11, 2000, at 23:31:15
In reply to Re: hi Chris (I tried) - Prayer. Is it scientific?, posted by SLS on July 8, 2000, at 8:59:24
> > I'll keep praying for you Chris, no problem. My brother told me there is some kind of evidence (not quite scientific) that it works
>
> :-) Your brother is right.
>
> There have actually been scientific investigations into the ability of prayer to help produce improvements in various illnesses. In 1992, I had read some stuff by a Dr. Larry Dossey, who had been a field surgeon in Viet Nam. He's a pretty smart guy. I think he was affiliated with the Mind-Body Institute at that time. Dossey and his colleagues seem to believe that some of the concepts offered by modern physics may explain how someone in Moscow can pray for someone in Cleveland and produce statistically significant enhancements to their healing. There have been placebo controlled, blinded experiments conducted that have claimed positive results demonstrating this phenomenon. Non-locality.
>
> Interesting. Cool. I have an open mind. I certainly like the idea.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
> P.S. Pray for me. I can use all the help I can get!
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
>
> The following appears on Medline:
>
>
> 19: Altern Ther Health Med 1996 Jan;2(1):66-73
>
> How prayer heals: a theoretical model.
>
> Levin JS
>
> Department of Family and Community Medicine, Eastern Virginia Medical School in
> Norfolk 23501, USA.
>
> This article presents a theoretical model that outlines various possible
> explanations for the healing effects of prayer. Four classes of mechanisms are
> defined on the basis of whether healing has naturalistic or supernatural origins
> and whether it operates locally or nonlocally. Through this framework, most of
> the currently proposed hypotheses for understanding absent healing and other
> related phenomena-hypotheses that invoke such concepts as subtle energy, psi,
> consciousness, morphic fields, and extended mind-are shown to be no less
> naturalistic than the Newtonian, mechanistic forces of allopathic biomedicine so
> often derided for their materialism. In proposing that prayer may heal through
> nonlocal means according to mechanisms and theories proposed by the new physics,
> Dossey is almost alone among medical scholars in suggesting the possible
> limitations and inadequacies of hypotheses based on energies, forces, and
> fields. Yet even such nonlocal effects can be conceived of as naturalistic; that
> is, they are explained by physical laws that may be unbelievable or unfamiliar
> to most physicians but that are nonetheless becoming recognized as operant laws
> of the natural universe. The concept of the supernatural, however, is something
> altogether different, and is, by definition, outside of or beyond nature. Herein
> may reside an either wholly or partly transcendent Creator-God who is believed
> by many to heal through means that transcend the laws of the created universe,
> both its local and nonlocal elements, and that are thus inherently inaccessible
> to and unknowable by science. Such an explanation for the effects of prayer
> merits consideration and, despite its unprovability by medical science, should
> not be dismissed out of hand.
>
> Publication Types:
> Review
> Review, tutorial
>
> PMID: 8795874, UI: 96388473I believe that quantum physics will eventually underwrite the idea of good and bad 'vibrations'. It is unsound, in my opiniion, for scientists to entirely reject notions that are part of traditions dating back to prehistory. The idea that all minds are in some sense connected does not seem the least bit unreasonable to me.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.