![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by Rockets on July 2, 2000, at 11:59:11
In reply to Re: yes projection..., posted by dj on July 2, 2000, at 11:45:10
Nope again. But you are turning nasty and projecting your own desire for how you want this to appear. I simply stated the obvious.
I do apologize though for that last comment. It was unwarranted. I don't suspect you could ever bring yourself to do the same.. could you? Anyways, have a happy fourth.
Posted by tdaneen on July 2, 2000, at 13:32:49
In reply to Re: yes projection..., posted by Rockets on July 2, 2000, at 11:59:11
Rockets, I was offended by the "Grown up" comment you made to me, however this venue is for all of us to learn and to vent if neccessary. It is sometimes difficult to decifer what is intended by what is written.
I do have other issues that I have to face, I never intended for my question to ignite such a backlash. For me, I know I am not just a competent parent, but an exceptional one. My illness has given me insight that being normal never would. I am much more sensitive to changes in mood in the people around me. I am more of a natural empath than I sometimes would like. I have worked hard to reach the level I am at. I will not , repeat WILL NOT allow that man or anyone, man or woman to use my illness as a lever against me. It is difficult a lot and it sucks a lot, but I believe that in some ways we bipolars are really blessed at the same time (brilliance and madness). We are given gifts of artistry, of spirit, or emotion, empathy, of understanding, of beauty, that the "normals" will never have. We are the ones that are the teachers. We are the ones that show them what deeper emotions are. They in many ways envy us that. Our curse is that we have to go through the darkness too. Why do you think we have such a hard time giving up our highs?Anyway back to reality... The point is as long as I am under the doc's care I take my meds, I am dilligent and monitor my mood changes, and I understand my illness and how it effects me and those around me. I am not harming myself or others, and I never have how could this ever be used against me? I just wanted to hear from others who had been through the same. Divorce, custody, bipolar illness and all. I want to thank all of those who replied to my post , Yes, even you Rockets. No hard feelings.'Kay?
Posted by dj on July 2, 2000, at 14:12:29
In reply to Re: yes projection..., posted by Rockets on July 2, 2000, at 11:59:11
> Nope again. But you are turning nasty and projecting your own desire for how you want this to appear. I simply stated the obvious.
>
> I do apologize though for that last comment. It was unwarranted. I don't suspect you could ever bring yourself to do the same.. could you? >Anyways, have a happy fourth.
Rockets,If I thought I was being nasty and ill-informed I could and would aplogize. I was particularly annoyed by your previous response, which I did consider nasty, and my response was informed by that and may have had a bit of an edge to it. However, I blunted the edge more than I would have and did in the past.I believe that my response(s) were appropriate to your comment(s), which I believe were niggling and did not speak to the obvious but did address a stereotypical (and hopefully well meaning) and not helpful viewpoint to the specific issue addressed, so I don't believe an apology is due.
And I also believe that you don't undertand projection which is well explained in the following quote from the book: "Undoing Depression" (http://www.undoingdepression.com):
"Two additional defense mechanisms...that contribute to problems in communication are projection and projective identification. Projection means that I take my feelings, disconnect them from my conscious awareness, and attribute them to you. "You really want to fight, don't you?" People who are very thin-skinned overuse projection. They take their own bad feelings about themselves and project them onto others, seeing themselves as victims of discrimination and collecting grievances everywhere. Projective identfication...occurs, when, as a result of your projection, I really do want to fight. I catch the feeling you attribute to me. The projector and the recipient can get bound together in horribly complex webs of feeling from which there seems to be no escape.
Like all defences, projection and projective identification are attempts to resolve a conflict between our needs, our fears (or our conscience), the expectations of others, and/or the strictures of reality. I need love and intimacy but I can fear it as well. If I let someone get close, I can be hurt. I can take that fear and project it, making anyone who comes close to me seem to be nosy, controlling, officious. Projection and projective identification can distort reality to a destructive, uncomfortable degree. And because they are so much a part of how we communicate in relationships, and because in human interactions things happen so fast that we can easily get confused, these defenses are less subject to reflective analysis than denial, isolation, or repression.
...When I assume I understand you without sufficient basis in reality, the cause can be either projection or projective identification. I think I can read your mind. I become convinced that I know what you really mean, despite all your attempts at claification. If I keep accusing you of really being angry at me, eventually you really will get angry at me. That's projective identification."
When I assume that you understand me, it's also a process of projection. When I become hot and bothered because I feel convinced I've made my wishes clear and you just stubbornly refuse to understand, I'm not communicating anything except my stubborness. These irrational sensations of knowing with perfect clarity exactly what the other person is thinking are sure indications of projection. They're fueled by emotions, not logic.
What we have to do, naturally, is check our assumptions."
And I could be wrong, as I am over tired and my concentration on this whole issue is somewhat distracted, at this moment. So if I've misinterpreted or misconstrued or lost track of the core issues in any of the above exchange(s) I apologize for that. However, I do believe my tone was balanced and generally respectful, if a bit direct and challenging to you, overall.
Regardless, of all of the above I do wish you and all of my Southern neighbours a happy Independence Day. Ours was yesterday...and on a metaphysical level it's everyday.
Sante! (french for health)
dj - a proud though not mindless Canadian
Posted by Rockets on July 2, 2000, at 15:53:45
In reply to Re: yes projection..., posted by dj on July 2, 2000, at 14:12:29
to tdaneen: yes and thank you.
to dj: Hah! You need more counseling.
Posted by dj on July 2, 2000, at 16:35:56
In reply to righto, posted by Rockets on July 2, 2000, at 15:53:45
> to tdaneen: yes and thank you.
>
> to dj: Hah! You need more counseling.I'm restraining myself from being blunter but you have shown yourself to be ignorant in all senses and you are the one who is in dire need of counselling, from someone more intelligent and empathetic (as opposed to pathetic) than you, cuz you don't know what you are typing about.
Posted by Oddzilla on July 2, 2000, at 17:56:06
In reply to bipolar soap-opear, posted by tdaneen on July 2, 2000, at 13:32:49
>
My illness has given me insight that being normal never would. I am much more sensitive to changes in mood in the people around me. I am more of a natural empath than I sometimes would like. I have worked hard to reach the level I am at. I will not , repeat WILL NOT allow that man or anyone, man or woman to use my illness as a lever against me. It is difficult a lot and it sucks a lot, but I believe that in some ways we bipolars are really blessed at the same time (brilliance and madness). We are given gifts of artistry, of spirit, or emotion, empathy, of understanding, of beauty, that the "normals" will never have. We are the ones that are the teachers. We are the ones that show them what deeper emotions are. They in many ways envy us that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I find the idea that any one group of people claims to be given a special gift of brilliance understanding artistry etc etc ad nauseum to be VERY OFFENSIVE. We are all individuals. We are all equally valuable as teachers. Trust me there are plenty of people who label themselves bipolar who are less than brilliant. The manicky part is that they believe they are brilliant not that they really are. I'm sure you're a special person. Aren't we all?
The important issue in custody is what is best for the children. It's not about you. I hope you find an impartial lawyer or counselor or somebody to represent the childrens' interest independent of you. You may be so entangled in your own needs that you cannot really address theirs.
No hard feelings-ODDZILLA
The Gifted Brilliant Empathetic Feeler of Deep Emotion Teacher of All Lesser Beings (and if you don't agree you're just jealous :-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Anyway back to reality...Aaaaaaaaaaw do we hafta?
Posted by Rockets on July 2, 2000, at 19:47:26
In reply to Re: righto, Rockets, posted by dj on July 2, 2000, at 16:35:56
don't restrain yourself too much.. you might pull a muscle or something.. heh.
Posted by Janice on July 2, 2000, at 22:54:08
In reply to Re: righto, Rockets, posted by Rockets on July 2, 2000, at 19:47:26
Rockets is upset!
dj, they are all the same person who originated as bbob. Every time he got upset and discovered although many people sympathized with him but didn't agree, he created a new character to defend himself. Dr. Bob tried to block bobb (I believe) but was unsucessful.
So everytime he gets angry, they all jump on the same thread. Janice.
I like Claire 7 best, although whenever I read her postings I imagine a 46 year old man wearing a dress acting ultra feminine.
•I am definately not anti-bobb - in case one of you is reading this.
•have you ever considered a bipolar II or III diagnosis?
Posted by shar on July 3, 2000, at 0:22:30
In reply to Re: We all shine on..........., posted by Oddzilla on July 2, 2000, at 17:56:06
Odd and TD:
In child custody cases it IS about the best interest of the children which means it's 100% about the parents as well. If the court perceives that the children need counsel, they can appoint a guardian ad litem to represent their interests. (At least in Texas.)
I believe this is rarely necessary.
I also believe that when one is facing the possibility of having their children taken away (even if it "probably" won't happen), it is terrifying, and anger is no surprise, either.
Doubly so, because there is a stigma that can be attached to our mental health that can make the "population in general" uncomfortable, or suspicious, or wary about the person. That in itself is not a big to-do for me (what care I for my neighbor's assessment of me?). However, if I were going to court and the decision could impact my life and rights with my children--I would be mega concerned.
I have not read all the posts really thoroughly, but (unless there is ample and substantial reason to do it) telling someone you plan to take their kids because they are so unfit is mean.
I don't know who would make the best parent, but I would be dang sure if I thought it was me, I would be planning and strategizing to present a fair picture of myself, and it would be hard work and a struggle to have the self-confidence to do it (I have low self-esteem if you can believe it).
So, as to your comment, Odd, about feeling offended, well, you are special too. Survivors are special (they also tend to be extremely aware of small nuances in behavior of others). I think Dari did a very good job of describing how illness and wellness interact, and what she saw when the veil was lifted from her eyes.
I'm not bipolar (I don't think), but I am a survivor. The more healed I become, the more I can express my creativity, emotion, and reach out to the people I love. This is probably true of you, too, Odd. If not, I don't mean to offend you.
I don't think Dari was saying she was the Queen of All Things, I took her comments as her experience coming through the fog and learning to see. And showing some appreciation for what she has learned, respect for the work she has done, pride for her parenting, and it is her opinion that she has a perspective that "normals" wouldn't. If you are a "normal" I'm sure she meant no offense, Odd.
Oh, well. God bless us, every one.
Shar
Posted by dj on July 3, 2000, at 0:58:38
In reply to Claire 7, bbob, Odzilla, Peter C, etc HURRY…, posted by Janice on July 2, 2000, at 22:54:08
Multiple-personalities? Amazing, as they are all distinctive in postings and tonality, generally, from what I've noted... Claire 7 made a very nice comment to me below.
I had already decided to unhook myself from the provocative poke and prod that developed above, particularly after coming from a great movie, called "The Cup" about a Buddist community of soccer-loving monks of all ages. I commend it to you.
So Rocket's can just flare, alone!
Sante!
dj
> Rockets is upset!
>
> dj, they are all the same person who originated as bbob. Every time he got upset and discovered although many people sympathized with him but didn't agree, he created a new character to defend himself. Dr. Bob tried to block bobb (I believe) but was unsucessful.
>
> So everytime he gets angry, they all jump on the same thread. Janice.
>
> I like Claire 7 best, although whenever I read her postings I imagine a 46 year old man wearing a dress acting ultra feminine.
>
> •I am definately not anti-bobb - in case one of you is reading this.
> •have you ever considered a bipolar II or III diagnosis?
Posted by claire 7 on July 3, 2000, at 7:03:27
In reply to Claire 7, bbob, Odzilla, Peter C, etc HURRY…, posted by Janice on July 2, 2000, at 22:54:08
> Rockets is upset!
Now I'm really confused. Janice, are you saying Rockets is a "boBB character", too? If so, you really need to read a little more carefully. I'd have thought after your last taste of toe you'd learn to think before you jerk, if only to save face. Seriously, this subject seems to be becoming a bit of an obsession with you. Hope you're well. Claire
Posted by Oddzilla on July 3, 2000, at 7:24:06
In reply to Claire 7, bbob, Odzilla, Peter C, etc HURRY…, posted by Janice on July 2, 2000, at 22:54:08
I remain, Oddzilla!!!!
.
> •I am definately not anti-bobb - in case one of you is reading this.
> •have you ever considered a bipolar II or III diagnosis?No, have you ever considered paranoia? Just kidding. You're wrong about me though. Can't speak for anyone else. O.
Posted by Oddzilla on July 3, 2000, at 7:42:30
In reply to Since you insist, I'll join the fray...TD and Odd, posted by shar on July 3, 2000, at 0:22:30
Let there be peace on Earth
And let it begin with me
Let there be peace on Earth.......
Sorry I jumped in. Romanticizing "mental illness" is one of my sore points. I would still hope that the children could have separate representation. I hope the issue would be the effect of a parent's illness on the children not the civil rights of the parent. But I hope things work out for the best for everyone! O.
>
> In child custody cases it IS about the best interest of the children which means it's 100% about the parents as well. If the court perceives that the children need counsel, they can appoint a guardian ad litem to represent their interests. (At least in Texas.)
>
> I believe this is rarely necessary.
>
> I also believe that when one is facing the possibility of having their children taken away (even if it "probably" won't happen), it is terrifying, and anger is no surprise, either.
>
> Doubly so, because there is a stigma that can be attached to our mental health that can make the "population in general" uncomfortable, or suspicious, or wary about the person. That in itself is not a big to-do for me (what care I for my neighbor's assessment of me?). However, if I were going to court and the decision could impact my life and rights with my children--I would be mega concerned.
>
> I have not read all the posts really thoroughly, but (unless there is ample and substantial reason to do it) telling someone you plan to take their kids because they are so unfit is mean.
>
> I don't know who would make the best parent, but I would be dang sure if I thought it was me, I would be planning and strategizing to present a fair picture of myself, and it would be hard work and a struggle to have the self-confidence to do it (I have low self-esteem if you can believe it).
>
> So, as to your comment, Odd, about feeling offended, well, you are special too. Survivors are special (they also tend to be extremely aware of small nuances in behavior of others). I think Dari did a very good job of describing how illness and wellness interact, and what she saw when the veil was lifted from her eyes.
>
> I'm not bipolar (I don't think), but I am a survivor. The more healed I become, the more I can express my creativity, emotion, and reach out to the people I love. This is probably true of you, too, Odd. If not, I don't mean to offend you.
>
> I don't think Dari was saying she was the Queen of All Things, I took her comments as her experience coming through the fog and learning to see. And showing some appreciation for what she has learned, respect for the work she has done, pride for her parenting, and it is her opinion that she has a perspective that "normals" wouldn't. If you are a "normal" I'm sure she meant no offense, Odd.
>
> Oh, well. God bless us, every one.
>
> Shar
Posted by claire 7 on July 3, 2000, at 8:06:26
In reply to You're right and everybody sing..... » shar, posted by Oddzilla on July 3, 2000, at 7:42:30
I have the same distaste for romanticizing mental illness. My mother is diagnosed bi-polar (I never agreed with the diagnosis, but what do I know?), and believe me, she had no insight into MY needs. One of the most important things I've learned from this board is that emotionally troubled people are as diverse as the general population, and share all the general population's failures as well as strengths.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 3, 2000, at 8:50:44
In reply to Re: My Bipolar Soap-Opera life., posted by Rockets on June 30, 2000, at 17:11:23
> It is hard being grown up isn't it.
I was going to let that go...
> I do apologize though for that last comment. It was unwarranted.
...since you apologized. But then you continued with:
> Hah! You need more counseling.
So I guess I do need to ask you please to be civil. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 3, 2000, at 8:52:03
In reply to Re: righto, Rockets, posted by dj on July 2, 2000, at 16:35:56
> you have shown yourself to be ignorant in all senses and you are the one who is in dire need of counselling ... cuz you don't know what you are typing about.
> I ... decided to unhook myself from the provocative poke and prod that developed above...
Thanks. Especially because one more time will be too many...
Bob
Posted by tdaneen on July 3, 2000, at 9:14:05
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Dr. Bob on July 3, 2000, at 8:50:44
How naive I feel. All I wanted to do was ask what I considered to be an acceptable, relavent question. A question that needed a bit of background. I didn't realize that it would spark such a heated debate between the people on the board.
I would like to apologize. I feel like in some way this is my fault.I don't feel like I have "romanticised" "mental illness" (a term I refuse to use BTW). The experiences that those of us have had make us better suited to understand many, many different circumstances. Why do we come to these stupid message boards anyway? We come here because we want to have understanding and insight from those who have been there. We want to have empathy from those who will feel as we feel. Those who emote as we do. We want to get reassurance when we are scared because we have to go another round with yet another new medication.
The usefulness of this style of forum for me (and me alone I am not speaking for anyone else) is in question. I doubt I will use this forum for anything other than for meds/side effects etc.For those of you who actually tried to answer with their insight and empathy and experience, Thankyou. You have made this a worthwhile experience. I am indebted to you. This has been a dark time for me.
For those of you who have been bickering amongst youselves......in the future you might think about where the thread started, and what that person might be thinking.
You might start a new thread. Just a thought.
Posted by tdaneen on July 3, 2000, at 9:24:58
In reply to Since you insist, I'll join the fray...TD and Odd, posted by shar on July 3, 2000, at 0:22:30
You called it Shar. I am also a survivor.
Uncanny!
Posted by Rockets on July 3, 2000, at 10:21:20
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Dr. Bob on July 3, 2000, at 8:50:44
It will be my pleasure to comply Dr. Bob. I have never participated in a thread that ended like this yet and I have been posting for months now.
You must admit, however, that my comment was accurate even though it caused the recipient and her friends some distress apparently. My motivation for sharing an opinion was only to help. I know that by not agreeing with such people these situations can occur. It is unfortunate and reflects a lack of maturity on the part of the participants. Hopefully that changes as they, as we, get older and wiser.
I would also like to state for the record to those who bashed me here, that I am not this bbob character (whoever he is) nor do I know him.
Posted by noa on July 3, 2000, at 12:06:44
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by tdaneen on July 3, 2000, at 9:14:05
Tdaneen, As I read this developing thread, I couldn't help thinking, WOW, it has gotten so off track from the original post, in which you were seeking support as you grapple with your situation.
I was tempted to jump in there and say something about that, but I decided to stay away, because of how uncomfortable I have felt with the more antagonistic threads here. But your most recent post, in which you express your discouragement leads me to say something.
I would suggest starting a whole new thread and maybe wording it in a way that might be less apt to lead to this tangential stuff, not that you "invited" it in the first place. Sometimes starting fresh breaks the cycle of the negativity.
This board can be a great place. Sometimes it is contentious lately, though.
Good luck.
Posted by dj on July 3, 2000, at 14:07:28
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by tdaneen on July 3, 2000, at 9:14:05
> I would like to apologize. I feel like in some way this is my fault.
>Not your fault at all. Just human nature and mis-communication and mis-understandings and mis-interpretations as honest attempts to deal with nuances got mis-contrued, rhetorical positions intensifed and the heat went up, on both sides, and the light down...
> The usefulness of this style of forum for me (and me alone I am not speaking for anyone else) is in question. I doubt I will use this forum for anything other than for meds/side effects etc.
>
> For those of you who actually tried to answer with their insight and empathy and experience, Thankyou. You have made this a worthwhile experience. I am indebted to you. This has been a dark time for me.
>
> For those of you who have been bickering amongst youselves......in the future you might think about where the thread started, and what that person might be thinking.
> You might start a new thread. Just a thought.As one who did get a bit carried away I apologize to you for diverting attention from your original issue and hope that you will not just focus on AD issues here as the value in this forum, I believe, is in broader discussions if respectful on all sides. Sometimes, unfortunately some of us get caught up in our own rhetoric and personal dramas, which happens in life on-line and off. And re-viewing and re-evaluating is a valuable learning experience, that unfortunatly sometimes takes time...and re-petition and re-thinking...before one realizes that there are better ways to expend one's energies.
Sante!
dj
Posted by Oddzilla on July 3, 2000, at 15:17:22
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by tdaneen on July 3, 2000, at 9:14:05
>
> I don't feel like I have "romanticised" "mental illness" (a term I refuse to use BTW). The experiences that those of us have had make us better suited to understand many, many different circumstances. Why do we come to these stupid message boards anyway? We come here because we want to have understanding and insight from those who have been there. We want to have empathy from those who will feel as we feel. Those who emote as we do. We want to get reassurance when we are scared because we have to go another round with yet another new medication.
Who are you talking about when you say we? We are all individuals here. Everyone's experience is different.
> The usefulness of this style of forum for me (and me alone I am not speaking for anyone else) is in question. I doubt I will use this forum for anything other than for meds/side effects etc.That might be best if you feel too fragile to deal with people who do not rubberstamp your opinions. But I think someday you might have a lot to offer as well as recieve. And I would certainly welcome you back. I find the diversity of experience and opinion to be the most valuable part of PB.
>
> For those of you who actually tried to answer with their insight and empathy and experience, Thankyou. You have made this a worthwhile experience. I am indebted to you. This has been a dark time for me.I wish the best for your children. I wish you the courage to put them first. O.
Posted by Rockets on July 3, 2000, at 18:32:25
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by dj on July 3, 2000, at 14:07:28
Very nice dj. I agree. I too must admit that the greater struggle with psychological issues, problems, and medications overshadows our philosophical squabbles.. I mean perspectives ;). We who have been unfortunate to experience one condition(s) or another [severe anxiety attacks in my case] know the great pain experienced by true sufferers. I am getting better and feeling my oats again but it has occurred to me that if we lose sight of how vulnerable some of the readers still are and how in need of all our insight and encouragement they really are, we are doing themselves, ourselves, and this environment a real disservice. It's ok to have an opinion and voice it but I agree that there's a time and a place. Also, you have to look at who you're engaging. Someone two weeks into recovery for severe depression is not anywhere in the same frame of mind as a person experiencing dramatic gains after a full year. While I do want to make my opinions known and believe I am entitled to them.. I want to do so in an appropriate manner.
Posted by dj on July 3, 2000, at 19:33:05
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Rockets on July 3, 2000, at 18:32:25
Thanks, Rockets, for a well written wrap to our sideshow, to the main event!
My apologies for getting a bit overheated in our exchanges in both taking on your position and defending mine.
All the best to you and all on here, in gaining and maintaining health on all fronts! Let's all view this as a learning opportunity. That's the way I am framing it for myself, at least.
Sante!
dj
Posted by Kath on July 3, 2000, at 21:22:05
In reply to Amen - Re: please be civil, posted by dj on July 3, 2000, at 19:33:05
Tdaneen - I am thinking of you. The part of it I've experienced is the divorce part & the "back & forthing" of my ex-husband. He'd want to get back together...I'd buy in emotionally...once I had, he'd say, no - he didn't want to be with me...I'd be crushed...he'd say crummy stuff about me...he'd say he wanted to get back together again...I'd say no...he'd say he needed me, etc....I'd buy in (low self-esteem; thought I NEEDED him to be worthwhile, loveable, etc.)...he'd say no, he wanted to find another woman...and on and ON and OOONNNN!!! Finally (!!!) I stopped buying in!! You have my profound warm thoughts & prayers. Hang in there. I wish I could give support about the other parts. I DO say, that you sound like a wonderful person & you deserve people around you who care for you and value you.
Thinkin of ya'. Kath
This is the end of the thread.
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