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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by paul on June 24, 2000, at 22:13:15
by far the toughest battle i face is getting to sleep at night. while i'm fully aware of where these "rat running on a wheel" thoughts come from and am getting help for the ones of substance, there's still a lot of "noise" that keeps the rat running. what meds quiet and clear the mind so that sleep can happen? i've tried seroquel with limited success but it definitely does help lower the volume of the "noise". even a small dose (<12.5 mg) still leaves me foggy and headachey during the day. the thoughts are rarely if ever suicidal or psychotic-they usually involve things i can't change/understand/accept. ANY suggestions as to whatever meds/methods have been helpful in quieting rumination would be gratefully appreciated!
tx
pcl
Posted by ChrisK on June 25, 2000, at 6:14:21
In reply to rumination and sleep, posted by paul on June 24, 2000, at 22:13:15
Paul,
The best thing I have tried to calm intrusive or troubling thoughts is Zyprexa. It has really helped to clear my mind plus it is sedating and will help with sleep. There is a "break-in" period when you may feel groggy during the day but I have found this to go away within the first two weeks. it may just take a small dose - maybe 2.5mg. It may be worth a try. It has really helped me a lot.
Chris
Posted by paul on June 26, 2000, at 22:49:23
In reply to Re: rumination and sleep, posted by ChrisK on June 25, 2000, at 6:14:21
thanks, man-
i talked to my doc-who is working out great, btw-he's the SAME person EACH AND EVERY time i see him. with his predescessor i NEVER knew which version of the halfwitted DR. RUNTENSTEIN i'd run into. this is what were gonna try:
12.5 mg seroquel at bedtime, 400 mgs serzone in the evening, and o.5 mg clonazepam before bed. he said it was a rational decision since sz has done a reasonable job keeping me on a more-or-less even keel for quite a long time. i tried it last night and had quite the hilarious experience. i recently bought a house in colorado-i've been moving there for 25 years. when i had to go do what nobody can do for me, i awoke convinced that i was in colorado in somebody elses house. naturally, i didnt know where ANYTHING was. i wandered around in a steadily increasing level of fear that i'd have to do the "cat in the corner" routine until i saw the glow from my ez-drive two rooms away and realized that i was in fact in my present house. my doc calls it wishful thinking. i call it bloody hilarious.
i'll probably avoid zyprexa due to the weight gain. seroquel seems to do less of this than either risperdal or zyprexa. if necessary, i might try some of the really tiny doses of risperdal to see what they do. more mcFLAB i dont knead.
tx again
pcl
Posted by Cindy W on June 26, 2000, at 23:09:47
In reply to Re: rumination and sleep, posted by paul on June 26, 2000, at 22:49:23
> thanks, man-
> i talked to my doc-who is working out great, btw-he's the SAME person EACH AND EVERY time i see him. with his predescessor i NEVER knew which version of the halfwitted DR. RUNTENSTEIN i'd run into. this is what were gonna try:
> 12.5 mg seroquel at bedtime, 400 mgs serzone in the evening, and o.5 mg clonazepam before bed. he said it was a rational decision since sz has done a reasonable job keeping me on a more-or-less even keel for quite a long time. i tried it last night and had quite the hilarious experience. i recently bought a house in colorado-i've been moving there for 25 years. when i had to go do what nobody can do for me, i awoke convinced that i was in colorado in somebody elses house. naturally, i didnt know where ANYTHING was. i wandered around in a steadily increasing level of fear that i'd have to do the "cat in the corner" routine until i saw the glow from my ez-drive two rooms away and realized that i was in fact in my present house. my doc calls it wishful thinking. i call it bloody hilarious.
> i'll probably avoid zyprexa due to the weight gain. seroquel seems to do less of this than either risperdal or zyprexa. if necessary, i might try some of the really tiny doses of risperdal to see what they do. more mcFLAB i dont knead.
> tx again
> pclpcl, I think most pdocs want to help (are not "Runtenstein's"). People seem to respond so very differently to meds, that I think it must be an art, getting people on the right meds (as well as requiring patience and trial and error). I've been very lucky, since I'm happy with my pdoc. In the past (25 years ago), I went to a psychiatrist who tried me on Ludiomil, a tetracyclic, and I went to the wrong house, went up to the front door (wondering why somebody else's car was in the driveway) and tried to walk in! Finally, I figured out it was the wrong house (and stopped the Ludiomil, in favor of Prozac instead). So I empathize with your post! Hope the new combo works out OK.
Posted by harry b. on June 27, 2000, at 16:30:26
In reply to Re: rumination and sleep, posted by ChrisK on June 25, 2000, at 6:14:21
> Paul,
>
> The best thing I have tried to calm intrusive or troubling thoughts is Zyprexa. It has really helped to clear my mind plus it is sedating and will help with sleep. There is a "break-in" period when you may feel groggy during the day but I have found this to go away within the first two weeks. it may just take a small dose - maybe 2.5mg. It may be worth a try. It has really helped me a lot.
>
> ChrisChris-
Zyprexa is an anti psychotic, right?
Are pdocs comfortable prescribing this?
Can it be used to augment ADs?
Are there any side effects except sedation, especially
sexual or cognative impairment?Sorry for the shopping list of questions but I have
similar problems and would welcome the relief you
have described.Thank you
hb
Posted by paul on June 28, 2000, at 0:34:30
In reply to Re: rumination and sleep-zyprexa » ChrisK, posted by harry b. on June 27, 2000, at 16:30:26
harry-
in the last few daze seroquel has helped in the rumination area a LOT. my mind still "runs" all the time but now the volume is low enough to allow me a choice of whether or not i listen to it. i focus more on the task at hand instead of getting caught up in SCHNIVE which was the way of the world up until now. and i'm only taking half the regular dose.
pcl
Posted by SLS on June 28, 2000, at 9:01:43
In reply to Re: rumination and sleep-zyprexa-harry b., posted by paul on June 28, 2000, at 0:34:30
> harry-
> in the last few daze seroquel has helped in the rumination area a LOT. my mind still "runs" all the time but now the volume is low enough to allow me a choice of whether or not i listen to it. i focus more on the task at hand instead of getting caught up in SCHNIVE which was the way of the world up until now. and i'm only taking half the regular dose.
> pcl
I am sorry to have to ask, but what is SCHNIVE?Zyprexa (olanzapine) seems to be capable of exerting an antidepressant effect on its own. Currently, there is an investigation into the possibility that Zyprexa acts as an effective augmenting agent to Prozac. If it is, I would venture to guess that it might act similarly with the other SSRIs.
- Scott
Posted by harry b. on June 28, 2000, at 16:52:13
In reply to Re: rumination and sleep-zyprexa-harry b., posted by SLS on June 28, 2000, at 9:01:43
Thanks Paul & Scott-
When Celexa worked for me (only 1 or 2 weeks) it was
almost magical. No other AD ever had this effect.1) the bad thoughts, obsessive thoughts, ruminations,
were mostly quiet. If they were noticeable at all,
it was way in the background.2) This is the magical part for me. When these
thoughts made it to the forefront of my mind, unbidden, I
could easily push them away.3) Even more magical. I could, at will, bring one
of these thoughts/issues/whatever to the forefront
of my mind, look at it, analyze it, work on it,
put it away again, all the while being master of
my mind and easily able to not let the thoughts
engulf or overwhelm me. I could even visualize the
process. The 'bad thoughts', unresolved issues,
stressors, were stored in boxes and files in the
recesses of my mind. I visualized placing them there,
out-of-sight, out-of-mind. I visualized reaching
back to get one out to examine, and when thru, putting
it back in storage.If this effect of Celexa had continued, I'd still
be taking it. It was a novel experience to feel so
clear-headed and in control of my thoughts. It was
damned exhilerating.............. I just read what I have written, and
help me out folks, SERIOUSLY, does it sound delusional
or schizo? Or do normal people have the ability
to do what I have described? I'd really like some
opinions/facts/personal realities on this.Thanks
hb
Posted by paul on June 29, 2000, at 0:07:21
In reply to Re: rumination and sleep-zyprexa-harry b., posted by SLS on June 28, 2000, at 9:01:43
dont be sorry-
SCHNIVE is possibly the MOST usable invented word ever devised. its meaning is variable as to context. the meaning in my post equates SCHNIVE with rumination/repetitive thoughts/etc. feel free to use it as often as you might like-why, there's even a budding SCHNIVE religion!!
our SCHNIVE
who art in SCHNIVE...
SCHNIVE be thy name
etc.
have fun with it-it makes previously improper usages of expletives almost within reason!
pcl
Posted by paul on June 29, 2000, at 0:10:45
In reply to Re: rumination, thought control, posted by harry b. on June 28, 2000, at 16:52:13
harry-
im sure that what you describe IS a part of the unattainable world of normalcy. what you express is the ability to tell your mind what to do instead of suffering the consequences of things being the other way around. seroquel is helpinmg in this respect. if i might offer another viewpoint-how about thought CHOICE rhather than control??
pcl
Posted by harry b. on June 29, 2000, at 1:15:57
In reply to Re: rumination, thought control, posted by paul on June 29, 2000, at 0:10:45
> harry-
> im sure that what you describe IS a part of the unattainable world of normalcy. what you express is the ability to tell your mind what to do instead of suffering the consequences of things being the other way around. seroquel is helpinmg in this respect. if i might offer another viewpoint-how about thought CHOICE rhather than control??
> pclPaul-
Thank you. Choice is a more apt description.
Choice is what I desire. Choice is what I experienced
briefly with the Celexa. Without control, however,
there is no choice (very subjective and maybe
negative thinking, but that's the way I see it).I'm aware of the various non med techniques such as
trying to substitute the undesirable thoughts with
positive ones, repeating mantras, meditation, etc, etc.
But those excercises have not worked.I think in my previous post that what I was trying
to describe, in conjunction with control and choice,
was the concept of organizational thinking.I feel better now since you agree that 'normal' humans
do have the capacity to perform this wonderous feat :).I am glad to hear that seroquel is helping you and
hope that the good results continue.Seroquel is also on the list for my pdoc next week.
Take care,
hb
Posted by danf on June 29, 2000, at 10:39:07
In reply to Re: rumination, thought control, choice » paul, posted by harry b. on June 29, 2000, at 1:15:57
Yes, Harry, organized thought is 'normal'.
I had it & lost it for a few yrs. It is recently back.
That disorganized intrusion of thoughts that dominates our life is a sure sign of a chemical brain disorder.
I never found a way other than meds to control this. Psych analysis told me what I should do, but doing it was another matter. Without the right meds, those boxes have springs that jump for no reason. They fly around & domminate the day.
Glad you found a temporary key for a short while with celexa.
Keep looking for one that will keep the boxes in order for a longer time.
Posted by glenn on June 29, 2000, at 14:24:58
In reply to Re: rumination, organized thought, choice, posted by danf on June 29, 2000, at 10:39:07
> Yes, Harry, organized thought is 'normal'.
>
> I had it & lost it for a few yrs. It is recently back.
>
> That disorganized intrusion of thoughts that dominates our life is a sure sign of a chemical brain disorder.
>
> I never found a way other than meds to control this. Psych analysis told me what I should do, but doing it was another matter. Without the right meds, those boxes have springs that jump for no reason. They fly around & domminate the day.
>
> Glad you found a temporary key for a short while with celexa.
>
> Keep looking for one that will keep the boxes in order for a longer time.
i agree fully, late every evening my brain normalises and i can choose what to think and am not bothered in the least by ruminating or anxious negative thoughts, only twice have i managed to stop this during the day, once for 15 mins after 2 hours of meditation and once for 30 mins after 12 miles of hard cycling, i have no doubt these caused a temporary flip back into normality but hey i cant keep that level up unless i become a cross between a buddist monk and maurice green!, the key is definitely chemical i just havent found the right one yet, im not against therapy being doubly qualified in it but it just doesnt help in many cases, or at least it helps a lot better with the right med
glenn
Posted by harry b. on June 29, 2000, at 21:10:08
In reply to Re: rumination, organized thought, choice, posted by danf on June 29, 2000, at 10:39:07
> Glad you found a temporary key for a short while with celexa.
>
> Keep looking for one that will keep the boxes in order for a longer time.Thanks dan-
What is the key that works for you?
hb
Posted by harry b. on June 29, 2000, at 21:59:47
In reply to Re: rumination, organized thought, choice, posted by glenn on June 29, 2000, at 14:24:58
> i agree fully, late every evening my brain normalises and i can choose what to think and am not bothered in the least by ruminating or anxious negative thoughts, only twice have i managed to stop this during the day, once for 15 mins after 2 hours of meditation and once for 30 mins after 12 miles of hard cycling, i have no doubt these caused a temporary flip back into normality but hey i cant keep that level up unless i become a cross between a buddist monk and maurice green!, the key is definitely chemical i just havent found the right one yet, im not against therapy being doubly qualified in it but it just doesnt help in many cases, or at least it helps a lot better with the right med
> glennglenn-
You could change careers, don robes and live in a
cave in Tibet, or build up your thighs & do the
European circuit.Seriously now.
At least you've got your evening respite to look
forward to, that has to be good.If this happens late every evening, could it be
due to less stressors?Is it the same on weekends or when you don't work?
Could it be related to fatigue or a chemical reaction
as your mind prepares for sleep?Have you ever travelled several time zones away, like
overseas, and was the onset the same?Just wondering. I'm sure you've examined all the above
and more.
When I had my short period of lucidity, I had just
ended several weeks of a full-day outpatient program.
My therapist tried and tried to attribute my clear
mind to the program. I won't say it didn't help,
but I have absolutely no doubt that it was chemical
induced.Good luck to you
hb
Posted by paul on June 29, 2000, at 23:08:01
In reply to Re: rumination, organized thought, choice, posted by glenn on June 29, 2000, at 14:24:58
i bet, though, that it's much rarer than we who rarely possess it believe. here's whats happening on my end. tried taking serzone in the evening to get the max sedation effect and ended up listening to freight trains in my head all night! i already have the entire vienna(sausage???)boys choir up there ringing bells 24/7 so when sz added the train it was just too mich. i used to take the entire days dose @ bedtime-which would have produced the same extra noise but during the DAY when it is easily overshadowed. tonight it's back to all @ bedtime w/25 mg. seroquel. i DO notice an improvement in many areas w/it and the drowsiness has pretty much abated during the day. no more calling myself names, and just a general increase in thought stability-i dont yet have FULL freedom to think what i choose but its better than its been in a long time. no weight gain-sero is supposed to be the least bad for this. thanks for the chance to talk to SANE participants about this---
pcl
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