![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 44. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by dj on June 21, 2000, at 23:28:36
January 19, 1999
New Theories of Depression Focus on Brain's Two Sides
By SANDRA BLAKESLEE - NY TimesTwo new theories of depression are rekindling interest in the once fashionable topic of how the left and right sides of the human brain interact.
At a meeting of the Society for Neuroscience last November in Los Angeles, Dr. Jack Pettigrew, a neuroscientist at the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia, proposed that people with manic depression have a "sticky switch" somewhere deep in their brains.
In normal people, the switch allows either the left or right hemisphere to be dominant during different mental tasks, with the two sides constantly taking turns. In people with manic depression, one hemisphere becomes locked into a dominant position in periods of depression while the other hemisphere is locked at times of mania. In a truly bizarre finding, Pettigrew reported that the placement of ice water into one ear seems to unstick the switch.
The second theory is being put forth by Dr. Frederic Schiffer, a psychiatrist at Harvard Medical School. He maintains that one hemisphere can be more immature than the other and that this imbalance leads to different mental disorders. Schiffer has designed special goggles to help people "talk" to each half of the brain separately, to learn which is less mature, and to bring the two hemispheres into harmony.
Both ideas have been well received by brain lateralization authorities eager to see a revival of their specialty.
"It's nice to see the left and right hemispheres are back," said Dr. Brenda Milner, a cognitive neuroscientist at the Montreal Neurological Institute in Quebec.The notion that the human brain has two halves and that the left side is associated with logical, analytical thinking while the right side is more intuitive, emotional and creative was popularized about 20 years ago, she said, and soon became received wisdom about how the brain works. "This idea fell from fashion not because people didn't like it but because they got interested in other things," she said.
Dr. Marcel Kinsbourne, a cognitive scientist at the New School for Social Research in New York City and early pioneer in brain lateralization studies, believes that left and right brain ideas also fell from fashion because they were oversold. People looked for universal dichotomies -- the left brain is a whiz at legal briefs but the right brain is deft at poetry -- that carried things too far. But the new theories are "intriguing," Kinsbourne said, although they have a long way to go before they can be accepted as valid. "We are in half-baked land here," he said.
The new theories are also appealing to many experts because they take on a question that has divided researchers for decades. Do people have one overarching mind that spans the two hemispheres? Or are they born with two separate minds -- one on the left and one on the right -- which operate so seamlessly that the person simply does not notice that there are two?
The subjective sense of having just one mind is overwhelming and unmistakable, said Dr. Joseph Bogen, a neurosurgeon at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles. But if the thick band of fibers connecting the two hemispheres is severed, he explained, humans seem to end up with two separate minds that show different abilities. In one dramatic disparity, the left hemisphere does all the talking while the mute right hemisphere has better access to emotions. For example, when the right brain is shown a photograph, the talkative left brain will say that it does not see anything and cannot comment. But the left hand, which is connected to the right brain, can raise a thumb up or down in response to the question, "Do you like the picture?"
These kinds of experiments led to a dichotomy of opinion among neuroscientists, Dr. Bogen said. One camp held that in splitting the brain, a single mind is cut into two but that it is abnormal to have two brains. The other camp said every person is born with two brains but because the two sides get along so well, people simply have the illusion of one mind.
After thousands of experiments carried out on normal subjects and split-brain patients, scientists still passionately disagree. But one feature has clearly emerged, said Dr. Terry Sejnowski, a neuroscientist at the Salk Institute in San Diego: Human brains show enormous variation in lateralization.
The claim that certain talents or abilities lie in one hemisphere or the other is usually based on averaging the brains of many people, he said. Because each individual brain is a complex system that evolves in response to a unique environment, many brain functions do not end up in the same place. This is further complicated by the fact that the left and right hemisphere probably communicate through deeper pathways that are not affected in split-brain patients.
The new ideas about lateralization will not resolve the question of one versus two brains, but they do add insights and suggest new ways to treat mental patients, said Schiffer, whose research was set off by his observation that many of his patients seemed to have a kind of double personality.
"On the one hand, they are very mature and stable, but on the other hand, they can be irrational, overly emotional and compulsive," he said. "Often these two sides appear to struggle against or sabotage each other. The troubled part seems stuck in a traumatic past, whereas the other part seems more mature and in control."
Suspecting he was seeing two minds working at cross purposes, Dr. Schiffer designed a pair of goggles that forced his patients to view the world from either the left or right hemisphere separately.
Many experiments show that it is possible to stimulate one hemisphere and inhibit the other so that a person looks at the world using half a brain at a time, Schiffer explained. When people gaze to the far right and engage their left brains, they do better on verbal memory tasks, he said, and when they look far to the left, to engage the right brain, they feel more inertia and fatigue.
To test how this affects psychiatric patients, Schiffer made two types of goggles. One permits vision only in the right visual field, thus activating the left brain. The other allows a person to see objects in the left visual field, which activates the right brain. Each brain hemisphere controls the opposite side of the body.
When patients looked through goggles, they reported very definite feelings, depending on which side of the brain was being engaged, Schiffer said. Some felt negative symptoms like anxiety and sadness when the right brain was activated. Others felt bad when the left brain was engaged. In general, he said, depressed patients felt worse when the right side was stimulated and people with post-traumatic stress syndrome fared poorly when the left side was more active.
Schiffer speculates that in certain mental disorders, one hemisphere is less mature than the other. The immature side is the repository of past traumas and can come to dominate the healthy side. Thus each hemisphere has mental properties with some autonomy from the other side. Each can hold separate opinions, have a different sense of human and carry a different perspective on the world.
Many people feel no mood difference when wearing the goggles, Schiffer said. This may be because both their hemispheres have similar outlooks, being equally calm or equally troubled.
Schiffer uses the goggles in therapy sessions to help patients recognize their two minds and to help the mature side take control over the immature side. Patients wearing goggles can actually converse with the opposite hemisphere, he said, and through talk therapy work toward recovery. The goggles do not support the idea that the right brain is poetic and the left is logical, Schiffer said. People are very different. Each hemisphere is individualistic; either one can be messed up or both sides can be in balance.
Pettigrew, who invented the sticky-switch idea of depression, also falls into the two minds camp, He theorizes that patients cycle between bouts of mania and depression for days, weeks or months at a time.
"Because the hemispheres have different cognitive styles, I thought it doesn't make sense to have them both working at the same time," Pettigrew said in an interview at the neuroscience meeting. "So I thought there should be a switch. This would allow each side to take turns dominating."
Pettigrew said there was plenty of evidence that different parts of each hemisphere cycle back and forth, left and right, during everyday tasks. Parts of the visual cortex switch dominance every few seconds, he said, whereas parts of the frontal lobes cycle every couple hours.
To measure how fast the two sides switch dominance in a visual task, Pettigrew used a standard apparatus that measures so-called binocular rivalry. When a target of horizontal lines is shown to the right eye and vertical lines are shown to the left eye, and the targets are flashed, the brain does not fuse the lines into a hatched pattern. One side of the brain sees vertical, the other side sees horizontal and the two take turns seeing a pure target. Most people switch sides every two to three seconds, Pettigrew said. But patients with manic depression require 20 to 30 seconds to switch between the two targets.
"I think they have a sticky switch between the hemispheres," he said. If the switch is stuck, it may be possible to unstick it, Pettigrew said, by turning to a strange observation made several years ago by Italian scientists.
"If you tilt a person's head 30 degrees to the side and put ice water into one ear, the opposite brain hemisphere will become activated," he said. Thus cold water in the left ear, activating the right hemisphere, might temporarily reduce the symptoms of mania. Depression might be temporarily reduced by placing cold water in the right ear.
Ice water in the ear is a traditional neurological test that has been performed, among other things, on astronauts in space to help understand space sickness. How ice water stimulates one hemisphere is not precisely known, but it seems to activate orientation pathways in one ear (which tell people where they are in space), and these pathways are connected to mid- and higher-brain regions in the opposite side of the head, Pettigrew said.
Trying the ice water in his own left ear, Pettigrew, who suffers from manic depression, said, "I sat on my couch at home for 40 hours, ruminating about my life." His left brain was stuck in the depression phase. It was, he said, an unpleasant experience.
Posted by noa on June 22, 2000, at 5:40:48
In reply to Some 2-brained theories a radical approach to..., posted by dj on June 21, 2000, at 23:28:36
This is along the lines of research by Richard Davidson of the University of Wisconsin, Madison, on laterality and emotions. You can read about this in a Washington Post Health section article by Marc Kaufman, November 2, 1999.
dj, thanks for all the news updates. Yes, I have been lurking from time to time lately. Couldn't resist jumping in on this one.
Posted by CarolAnn on June 22, 2000, at 8:31:31
In reply to Some 2-brained theories a radical approach to..., posted by dj on June 21, 2000, at 23:28:36
dj, I found this very interesting. I think I'm going to try that ice water in the ear thing. Would you maybe want to try it too, so we could compare notes? Just have to remember to put it in the *right* ear, I don't want to have a 40 hour depression! Thanx for another very informative post. CarolAnn
Posted by dj on June 22, 2000, at 10:50:09
In reply to Re: Some 2-brained theories a radical approach to... » dj, posted by CarolAnn on June 22, 2000, at 8:31:31
> dj, I found this very interesting. I think I'm going to try that ice water in the ear thing. Would you maybe want to try it too, so we could >compare notes?
You'll have to get someone else to co-participate in this one, Carol Ann, but thanks for the offer. Overall, I'm in pretty good shape these days, overall. My biggest isssue sometimes is fatigue, physical tightness at times and sometimes feeling a bit disoriented which is why I find some of these studies interesting as I do see mind-body links and am curious about them.
For instance, yesterday I was very fatigued and very stiff. However the day before I had completed an 8 page document on the links between stress and depression as part of a mediation process I'm involved in with the educational institution where I spent much of last year. Dealing with the issue brought up a lot of anxiety and I see links between that and the dis-ease I was experiencing. And I didn't and haven't stretched enough latetly or focused on deep, full breathing enough and hence I get the results that I did despite feeling fabulous the day before...
And I have a lot of issues, finances being a key one, which I am dealing with so lots of pressure and hence all the more need to look after myself, care-fully. I stopped by a friends place yesterday and had him help me with some back stretches as those muscles are really tight. He pointed out how stiff I was and that I was holding my breath, which I wasn't conscious of, when I was supposed to exhale. A habit that does not serve me that I need to work with and be more conscious of, so I don't go there... And it takes consciousness and practice...and repetition...and repitition...and repitition...and repitition... and reptition...until it becomes the norm..
So it's about paying careful attention and making sure I do the things I need to do to keep me well and in balance, consistently.
The work I did at the Haven focused on movement, connection, empathetic unambigious communication and genuine curiosity as keys to staying well and I have come to concur with them. The challenge is to do this all, habitually. And when I do I find I usually am and do well. And when I don't, then I have to deal with the results of not paying attention and any resulting dis-ease...
And I find the descriptions of potential causes and links to places like the thalmus and the vagus nerve fascinating. Certainly when I am feeling off it is as if my being is out of sync on many levels. The folks at the Haven have some interesting models/explanations of how it's all about tapping into and being in our own rythmn and that of the universal energy source, whatever you care to call it... Given that we are just a bunch of vibrating molecules at one level it makes sense. The question is how to get those vibrations in healthy and consistent synchronicity.
Science has some answers and so does spirituality, buddism in particular I belive...though the core of all religious/spiritual teachings always comes back to compassion for self and others and that's really what it's all about, being deeply compassionate and passionate about it in both word and deed.
BTW, here's a great quote that someone posted on the Haven's listserv, last night, which sums some of this up well:
> This poem was written by Mother Teresa and is
> engraved on the wall of her home for children
> in Calcutta.
>
> ¤º°`°º¤o,,,,o¤º°`°º¤o¤º°`°º¤o¤º°`°º¤o
>
> People are often unreasonable, illogical,
> and self-centered;
> Forgive them anyway.
>
> If you are kind, People may accuse you
> of selfish, ulterior motives;
> Be kind anyway.
>
> If you are successful, you will win some
> false friends and some true enemies;
> Succeed anyway.
>
> If you are honest and frank,
> people may cheat you;
> Be honest and frank anyway.
>
> What you spend years building, someone
> could destroy overnight;
> Build anyway.
>
> If you find serenity and happiness,
> they may be jealous;
> Be happy anyway.
>
> The good you do today,
> people will often forget tomorrow;
> Do good anyway.
>
> Give the world the best you have,
> and it may never be enough;
> Give the world the best you've got anyway.
>
> You see, in the final analysis,
> it is between you and God;
> It was never between you and them anyway.Time to go stretch, swim, hotub and then back to it... BTW, I find deeply relaxing in a hot bath for even five minutes or so helps me enormously and I sometimes do it several times a day, when feeling particularly tight. And someplaces or other I once read a reference to a study linking this to be helpful for folks dealing with depression. Relaxing deeply also allows me to go deeper beyond the surface tension to discover the underlying mental tensions, which can lead to great and profound creativity.
Sante,
dj
Posted by noa on June 22, 2000, at 12:28:46
In reply to Some 2-brained theories a radical approach to..., posted by dj on June 21, 2000, at 23:28:36
DJ, I had time now (lunch break) to read the article more thoroughly. It is so fascinating. I am with Carol Ann--going to try the ice water thing. Hey, maybe we can do an informal survey of the ice water phenomenon here at babble.
The theory of a more mature and less mature hemisphere in an individual is intriguing to me, as some of the work I do in therapy is trying to integrate different "states" I experience. They are not really true dissociative states, but in terms of how I experience myself and the world emotionally, they are fairly distinct. Over time, they are less separate from each other. Kind of like going from a tv that requires you to change the channel altogether to one that has a split screen, or at least a preview inset. Or at least maybe two sets on different channels in the same room.
I could see this laterality approach fitting with my experience of different states. One state is definitely more akin to an immature, nonverbal, egocentric way of seeing things, while the other major state (there are variations of these two basic states) is more mature, verbal, logical, has more perspective taking ability, etc. The less mature state for me is associated with hopelessness and helplessness, while the more mature one is hopeful and in a more problem solving mode. It really affects cognitive skills, too, like looking at a concrete problem and reacting to it. In the less mature state, it is hard for me to differentiate the aspects, or parts of a problem, and to imagine a sequence of steps to take to solve it. In the more mature state, I can often automatically get into action by conceiving a problem solving sequence and just start on the first step and procede. In the immature state, I and the problem are not separate from each other. My difficulty approaching the problem BECOMES the problem, and then I lose all distinction--I am the problem, the problem is me. In the more mature state, I see the problem as outside myself with clear boundaries. In the immature state, I usually withdraw and try to avoid the problem. In the more mature state, I am more likely to just deal with the problem.
Often I am in a state that is somewhere between these two polar ends of the continuum.
I have heard of other techniques that attempt to cross over the hemispheres and sort of break patterns of behavior--I guess they fall into the category of occupational therapy or Alexander technique or Feldenkreis, perhaps? I really don't know. I only have a vague awareness of these approaches. Also, maybe even some of the Ericksonian hypnosis type of techniques--Cindy, any thoughts?
Posted by Johnturner77 on June 22, 2000, at 13:41:35
In reply to Some 2-brained theories a radical approach to..., posted by dj on June 21, 2000, at 23:28:36
"If you tilt a person's head 30 degrees to the side and put ice water into one ear, the opposite brain hemisphere will become activated," he said. Thus cold water in the left ear, activating the right hemisphere, might temporarily reduce the symptoms of mania. Depression might be temporarily reduced by placing cold water in the right ear.
>
> Ice water in the ear is a traditional neurological test that has been performed, among other things, on astronauts in space to help understand space sickness. How ice water stimulates one hemisphere is not precisely known, but it seems to activate orientation pathways in one ear (which tell people where they are in space), and these pathways are connected to mid- and higher-brain regions in the opposite side of the head, Pettigrew said.
>
> Trying the ice water in his own left ear, Pettigrew, who suffers from manic depression, said, "I sat on my couch at home for 40 hours, ruminating about my life." His left brain was stuck in the depression phase. It was, he said, an unpleasant experience.
He must have been really depressed if he didn't try putting ice water in the other ear to try and end it. Maybe he did and was really depressed because it blew his theory :>)The Yoga technique of breathing through alternate nostrils is supposed to help balance the activities of the two hemispheres. There is supposed to be a natural cycle in the breathing between the two nostrils anyway. first one then the other is slightly(or a lot) more open. As the hemispheric dominance shifts, the air flow is supposed to shift. That would be another experiment to try. During the down cycle does one nostril dominate?
Posted by Oddzilla on June 22, 2000, at 16:24:42
In reply to Re: Some 2-brained theories a radical approach to... » dj, posted by CarolAnn on June 22, 2000, at 8:31:31
>Carol Ann-I'm willing to give it a try. I think it would be interesting to compare notes with other people on the board. I'll be back to report my results. O.
dj, I found this very interesting. I think I'm going to try that ice water in the ear thing. Would you maybe want to try it too, so we could compare notes? Just have to remember to put it in the *right* ear, I don't want to have a 40 hour depression! Thanx for another very informative post. CarolAnn
Posted by Adam on June 22, 2000, at 18:19:37
In reply to Re: Some 2-brained theories a radical approach to..., posted by Johnturner77 on June 22, 2000, at 13:41:35
I'm not sure how the nostril thing would work, but it's interesting! The nostrils are, after all, just two openings that lead to the same space; though the portions of the nasal cavity that are bifurcated, and thus differentially cooled by a directed stream of air, might act like the cold ear, I guess. But, when I have a cold, typically if I lay on my side in bed, one side of my nose gets stuffed up, while the other might open a little. I find this equally irritating no matter which side it is, and my mood seems to suffer equally when I wake up.
Then again, could any of this have something to do with waking up on the wrong side of the bed?
I am reminded of a story I heard in some class ages ago, where an epileptic patient, who had been given radical surgery to control his seizures experienced a profound state of duality. The hemispheres of his brain were separated, in the region of the hippocampus I think, which did alleviate his convulsions. However, they left him in a bizarre state of self-conflict, often between his emotional/impulsive and analytical/suppressive "halves". The most dramatic example given was an incident where, upon being irritated by his wife, he had to, with one hand, restrain the other hand, which was poised to strike her. Wheather or not this story contained some embellishments, I don't know. If true, it is a dramatic example of the various forms of hemispherical specialisation in our brains; no one disputes this now, since the advent of high-resolution imaging technologies, which can measure brain activity during specific tasks and in response to particular stimuli.
What I find quite intriguing about it all is the relative physiological parity between the brain hemispheres, and the ability of the brain, sometimes, to adapt compensatorily to injury. There is an certain level of adaptive plasticity, it would seem, that exists in contrast to any ideas of unflexible specialisation of regions of the brain, be they localised to a small portion of the cerebral cortex, or on the hemispherical scale.
I wonder if certain congnitive therapies could be tailored to specifically target hemispherical differences and exploit whatever degree of plasticity nature allows us. Perhaps something beyond a simple talk therapy, something like the perceptual filter described in the goggle experiment, or a combination of talk therepy with certain forms of physical/perceptual depravation and/or stimulation? That might be a powerful tool for therapists.
> "If you tilt a person's head 30 degrees to the side and put ice water into one ear, the opposite brain hemisphere will become activated," he said. Thus cold water in the left ear, activating the right hemisphere, might temporarily reduce the symptoms of mania. Depression might be temporarily reduced by placing cold water in the right ear.
> >
> > Ice water in the ear is a traditional neurological test that has been performed, among other things, on astronauts in space to help understand space sickness. How ice water stimulates one hemisphere is not precisely known, but it seems to activate orientation pathways in one ear (which tell people where they are in space), and these pathways are connected to mid- and higher-brain regions in the opposite side of the head, Pettigrew said.
> >
> > Trying the ice water in his own left ear, Pettigrew, who suffers from manic depression, said, "I sat on my couch at home for 40 hours, ruminating about my life." His left brain was stuck in the depression phase. It was, he said, an unpleasant experience.
>
> He must have been really depressed if he didn't try putting ice water in the other ear to try and end it. Maybe he did and was really depressed because it blew his theory :>)
>
> The Yoga technique of breathing through alternate nostrils is supposed to help balance the activities of the two hemispheres. There is supposed to be a natural cycle in the breathing between the two nostrils anyway. first one then the other is slightly(or a lot) more open. As the hemispheric dominance shifts, the air flow is supposed to shift. That would be another experiment to try. During the down cycle does one nostril dominate?
Posted by dj on June 22, 2000, at 20:50:26
In reply to Re: Some 2-brained theories a radical approach to..., posted by noa on June 22, 2000, at 12:28:46
>
> I have heard of other techniques that attempt to cross over the hemispheres and sort of break patterns of behavior--I guess they fall into the category of occupational therapy or Alexander technique or Feldenkreis, perhaps? I really don't know. I only have a vague awareness of these approaches. Also, maybe even some of the Ericksonian hypnosis type of techniques--Cindy, >any thoughts?Quick note as I've got to work on some things after a quick bit of sun, while it's here...
Erickonson definitely was on to something. In books and articles I've read about him he would attempt to help people by closely observing their physiological reactions as well as what they were saying and provide a subliminal twist in his response to their comments. NLP is based on attempting to model some of his and Viginia Satir's approaches but is usually not done with sufficient skill and finess by those attempting to imitate the masters.
There is a statue of VS at the Haven, where I belive she may have delivered workshops. Having seen and experienced many facilitators and those attempting to be such what drew me to the Haven and back was the opportunity to work with Ben & Jock (see above under - The (New) Manual for Life, who are certainly of VS and Erickson's calibre.
What's special about them and their approach is their grace, finesse and compassion combined with experience, empathy and acute observational and communication skills.
I've dabbled in many approaches and see the commanalities in many of them. Skilled and compassionate facilitation is the core requirementt for success, regardless of the technique you are using because you have to be responsive to those you are dealing with, on many levels.
I did a few sessions with a fellow who was kinda a mad-scientist type who used goggles and other sensory acuity devices in attempting to balance brain waves and laterality and what have you. I didn't trust him or his technology so never totally relaxed and uncertain if there was any true benefit, though it may have helped some at the time. With someone else and/or another approach I may have had stellar results.
Mutual trust and compassion are such core component of any healing relationship. If I know that whoever I am dealing with is skilled, skillful, knowledgable, compassianate, capable and open to real dialogue trust and healing happen. My first yoga instructor was a gem this way and her compassionate yet challenging approach helped me unwind and heal as much as any yogic technique.
Yoga, like anything else can be but a technique and can even become an obsession as it did for me - until I started paying deeper and more conistent attention to myself and my patterns. B & J were key in helping me get there.
Posted by Johnturner77 on June 23, 2000, at 7:44:14
In reply to Techniques and alternative approachs..., posted by dj on June 22, 2000, at 20:50:26
I am not bipolar as far as I know. I had to try this though. Come to think of it I remember hearing about this somewhere sometime in the distant past.
I am left handed so I decided to put the ice water in my right ear. I used a baster which allowed me to controll the water flow nicely. Wow! This turned out to be rather psychoactive. It messed with my balance. I staggered around as if slightly drunk for quite awhile. It awakened the whole right side of my body...sort of made it tingle. Mood wise not much difference. I just felt rather strange.
I would put this as more psychoactive than Hemi-sync, strobe flash stimulation, dervish whirling, Biocircuits, and EEG biofeedback. HOwever is it useful to me? I don't know. I am curious about habituation. I suppose the the brain will get used to it after awhile and and start saying yeah yeah here comes the ice water again time to adjust the activity.
Posted by dj on June 24, 2000, at 9:48:54
In reply to Re: Some 2-brained theories a radical approach to..., posted by noa on June 22, 2000, at 12:28:46
> I could see this laterality approach fitting with my experience of different states. One state is definitely more akin to an immature, nonverbal, egocentric way of seeing things, while the other major state (there are variations of these two basic states) is more mature, verbal, logical, has more perspective taking ability, etc. The less mature state for me is associated with hopelessness and helplessness, while the more mature one is hopeful and in a more problem solving mode. It really affects cognitive skills, too, like looking at a concrete problem and reacting to it. In the less mature state, it is hard for me to differentiate the aspects, or parts of a problem, and to imagine a sequence of steps to take to solve it. In the more mature state, I can often automatically get into action by conceiving a problem solving sequence and just start on the first step and procede. In the immature state, I and the problem are not separate from each other. My difficulty approaching the problem BECOMES the problem, and then I lose all distinction--I am the problem, the problem is me. In the more mature state, I see the problem as outside myself with clear boundaries. In the immature state, I usually withdraw and try to avoid the problem. In the more mature state, I am more likely to just deal with the problem.
>
> Often I am in a state that is somewhere between these two polar ends of the continuum.
>Noa,
I just reread the above commentary from you. I'm curious if when you are in your more immature state you are feeling in pain or extremely vunerable? I notice that when I'm experiencing either and usually both is when I feel my most helpless and hopeless.
Sante!
dj
Posted by dj on June 24, 2000, at 10:05:58
In reply to Wow! I Basted my rt ear with a turkey baster...., posted by Johnturner77 on June 23, 2000, at 7:44:14
When I undergo a fair bit of stress and experience considerable anxiety my body tightens up, which relates to the release of internal stress related chemicals. A good discussion on this and the effects is in the book, "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers: An Updated Guide to Stress, Stress-Related Diseases, and Coping" by Robert M. Sapolosky.
However, what he does not address (unless I missed it as I was very stressed and depressed when I originally read it and it is a hefty book) is what I particularly noted over the past 1.5 year how one side of my body would be tigher and more out of sync. than the other. Having just re-experienced this (as I'm dealing with a lot of potentially anxiety producing situations and overall relatively well) physical laterality split (and had an adjustment done by a chiropractor which helped) I'm curious if others have noticed the same in themselves.
Yoga, when done regularly but not obsessively can and does help me stay balanced and my tension down, though when I did it obsessively that became a source of tension and perfectionism...
I also noticed over the last year I've experienced a bitter taste in my mouth, which has been more saline at some times and has varied in intensity. Initially when I brough it to my MD's attention he gave me a subscription for Tagerol (or something like that) and claimed that it may have been the result of acidic backwash from my innards (I forget the technical name and descrition) but that didn't seem to work. Still experiencing a bit of that flat taste, though generally I'm in pretty good shape. Anyone else ever experience that and have any insights into it?
A friend told me that from a Chinese medicine perspecive it had something to do with being out of balance and I believe she indicated (almost a year ago) that the tigtness on the one side (left I think) indicated that I was suppressing my feminine (vunerable?) side or something along those lines...
Anyone else any similar expriences or insights on this they'd care to share and if they have experienced any of the above how they've dealt with it??
Posted by CarolAnn on June 24, 2000, at 10:10:20
In reply to Re: Lending an ear to science » CarolAnn, posted by Oddzilla on June 22, 2000, at 16:24:42
My experience: it hurt like heck and all it did was make me dizzy! Chalk it up to one more "quick fix" that doesn't work, I guess. It's still an interesting idea though. CarolAnn
Posted by Noa on June 24, 2000, at 11:06:39
In reply to Re: Some 2-brained theories - Noa, posted by dj on June 24, 2000, at 9:48:54
Yes, dj, immature state=vulnerable, helpless, in pain. This is usually the formula for me. I think my more mature state feels more power, because I am more in touch with some of my powers--thought, logic, problem solving, perspective, etc. All these are tools that make me feel I can survive in the world. Now, perhaps if one wants to wax philosophical, one could say that to a certain degree it is a false power, a healthy dose of denial of the truly formidable challenges to survival that we face, to believe that we can "problem-solve" our way through life and survive what may come our way. In a sense, the immature state is just missing some of the denail/filter that screens out the dangers to my existence. When I am in my more mature state, I have more faith in my self to cope, but this does depend on that denail/filter phenomenon. I often think that many people with anxiety disorders are not having qualitatively outrageously anxious thoughts. A lot of their fears are realistic. If I let myself be in touch with the real dangers of automobile travel all my waking hours, I would never get in a car. I might never cross a street. But to function, I have to use that denial/filter function. People who are anxious, who worry a lot, I think just are more open to those real dangers than most of us. To a certain degree, we need a continuum of types of people in the world from not at all anxious to very anxious, with the folks at the anxious end helping the rest of us from becoming too invulnerable to real risks. It is when being open to the fears starts to interfere with life, that the anxiety is a problem. Anyway, with me, it is my openness to the feelings of being small in a large lonely world, helpless in a huge universe, that I am painfully in touch with in my immature state of mind. But along with that comes the preverbal logic trying to explain my feelings, and what this young brain logic comes up with is that the feelings are my fault (egocentric thinking), I am the embodiment of badness, that is why I am all alone in my skin in this huge universe. When it is really bad, it feels like I am going to disintegrate myself or destroy the world with my neediness.
You get the picture--very primal stuff.
Posted by Noa on June 24, 2000, at 11:11:54
In reply to Re: ice water - OUCH!, posted by CarolAnn on June 24, 2000, at 10:10:20
Ok, I admit, I tried it, too. All that happened was my ear got clogged like it used to when I was a kid who stayed in the pool or lake or ocean all day long.
Seriously, though, I was wondering: Why the ear? If we are talking about targetting stimulation to one side of the body, why must it be water in the ear? Why not massage one side of the body? Or tap the nerves on the side of the face (near the ear, where the jaw connects), or reflexology of one foot, etc. etc.?
Posted by dj on June 24, 2000, at 15:42:09
In reply to Re: ice water - OUCH!, posted by Noa on June 24, 2000, at 11:11:54
> If we are talking about targetting stimulation Why not massage one side of the body? Or tap the nerves on the side of the face (near the ear, where the jaw connects), or reflexology >of one foot, etc. etc.?In the Disengaging Depression workshop before each morning session we went through a series of movements/stimulations of acupressure points around the skull, jaw, nasal area, forhead, upperchest, back of skull and ears which were all supposed to stimulate positive glandular balances. If nothing else it was somewhat amusing to watch, very primal and probably would do some good if reguarly practiced, as would and does stretching, good communications, nutritional and postural practices.
Sante!
dj
Posted by danf on June 24, 2000, at 16:21:54
In reply to Re: ice water - OUCH!, posted by Noa on June 24, 2000, at 11:11:54
I thought the start of this was cute. It is obvious that if it worked it would be widely used.
We have two brain halves but they are not connected in the same way.
Now to some observations. I am right handed. The autonomic dysfunction which showed in me at startup of zoloft was left sided. most effects were from mid thigh down. After the initial seritonin effects decreased, left side of body showed more tremor than the right.
When I recently changed over to celexa the quality of the surges changed from electric to hot /burning. still mainly left but by the time they dissapated were bilateral.
They have never affected my head or face.
If this were all brain mediated, we would expect body on one side & face on the other. It is obvious that the brain is integral as thoughts can trigger events.
There is a significant contribution from the autonomic system as well as the brain. There is an imbalance in some pathways & not others. There is not a consistant pathway error or everyone would have exactly the same distribution of symptoms.
no answers, just some observations.
Posted by shar on June 24, 2000, at 17:20:49
In reply to Mind-Body laterality...and effects...???, posted by dj on June 24, 2000, at 10:05:58
It's thought in some scientific communities that different sides of the body "hold" different functions due to cerebral organization. So, if one side of the body is noticeably different than the other, it could be due to dominance of the side (more likely to tense up the dominant arm or leg maybe) or due to the brain function the side is carrying out. (I did a paper on this many moons ago.)
There are areas of study of cerebral organization and mind-body connection, defined as side-dominance (operational definition). That is, how the dominant side of the body--which hand you write with, eat with, point with, the eye you wink with, the foot you kick with, ear you use on phone, etc.--shapes or is shaped by the the brain.
Most docs hypothesize that cerebral organization is contralateral. The right side of the brain controls the left side of the body. And, the left side of the brain controls the right side of the body. Thus the right/left functions of the brain will be expressed via the body. (Right handed writing, left brain holds language)
Some docs, however, believe that in some cases, there can be ipsilateral organization--that is, the right side of the brain controls the right side of the body, etc. And, more lefties were identified as having ipsilateral org, (and the left/right cerebral orgainzation would still translate "correctly").
But, problems were believed to stem from this feature. Left-handed people are significantly more likely than "people in general" to be found in psychiatric populations (hospitals). And, lefties tend to be overrepresented in certain occupations, such as architecture, and the arts. The docs cited the different cerebral organization as contributing to this.
However, to throw a wrench into things, docs have a hard time determining handedness because it is unusual to find "pure" lefties or "pure" righties (but moreso pure lefties). And that begs the question of ambidexterity and how that plays out.
Nobody had looked at ambidexies much when I turned in the paper.
Shar
Posted by SLS on June 24, 2000, at 17:35:16
In reply to Mind/Body/Dominance (Lefty Here), posted by shar on June 24, 2000, at 17:20:49
> Nobody had looked at ambidexies much when I turned in the paper.
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.- Yogi Berra
Posted by dj on June 26, 2000, at 7:21:19
In reply to Mind/Body/Dominance (Lefty Here), posted by shar on June 24, 2000, at 17:20:49
> It's thought in some scientific communities that different sides of the body "hold" different functions due to cerebral organization. So, if one side of the body is noticeably different than the other, it could be due to dominance of the side (more likely to tense up the dominant arm or leg maybe) or due to the brain function the side is carrying out. (I did a paper on this many moons ago.)
>So, Shar, way back then or since did or have you (or anyone else) come across any writings on how one balances out these patterns so that one side does not dominate and distort hence knocking the balance out of whack?
Posted by shar on June 26, 2000, at 20:52:23
In reply to Re: Mind/Body/Dominance , posted by dj on June 26, 2000, at 7:21:19
> So, Shar, way back then or since did or have you (or anyone else) come across any writings on how one balances out these patterns so that one side does not dominate and distort hence knocking the balance out of whack?DJ
Hmmmm. I wonder if dominance necessarily equals distortion? For example, we know that the two sides of our bodies are not perfect mirror images of each other. Thus, if we tried to do an asana in which we were standing balanced on one foot, we would probably not be perfectly straight up and down. We would have to be a few mm's to the left or right, probably, in order to balance.So, it's anybody's guess if the brain balances in a similar way. It does a little more on the right to compensate for an absence on the left? I don't know, but that would seem fairly likely. The researchers had a very hard time calling anyone pure lefty or pure righty; most of us are in between somewhere. That's probably where our balance is.
And, it's hard to separate mind/body/spirit if we are talking about total balance (as in yin and yang). We don't see a lot in the universe or nature that is perfectly balanced (right=left), we see more right>left or left>right; so maybe the whole thing is a process rather than a phenomenon?
I didn't get the answer because I don't think anyone had asked that question. You are unique!
Namaste--
S
Posted by dj on June 26, 2000, at 22:54:38
In reply to Dominance and Distortion » dj, posted by shar on June 26, 2000, at 20:52:23
> I didn't get the answer because I don't think anyone had asked that question. You are unique!
>Ahhhh, but are we not all in our balances, similar yet different, the same yet not? Methinks yes!
Very good thoughtful answer on your behalf, regardless. I imagine that if one side gets too distinct from the other that our systems go out of whack in attempting to correct course as they counterbalance from one extreme to another.
However,a small adjustment here and there and we stay on course generally, I believe. Though if we don't make those small adjustments conistently we can gradually tend toward imbalance, just like water coursing over a rock and wearing it down invariably, day by day, molecule by molecule.
I've been re-reading "Zen and the Art of Motorcylce Maintenance for about the 10th time in over the past 25 years or so. And I'm still learning and understanding more and more from my heavily annotated copy, which informs, delights and startles me consistently and thoughtfully. Zap!
Namaste!
dj
Posted by KarenB on June 26, 2000, at 23:38:42
In reply to Re: ice water - OUCH!, posted by CarolAnn on June 24, 2000, at 10:10:20
> My experience: it hurt like heck and all it did was make me dizzy! Chalk it up to one more "quick fix" that doesn't work, I guess. It's still an interesting idea though. CarolAnn
Wrong ear, CarolAnn.:)
Karen
Posted by Sara T on June 27, 2000, at 9:20:58
In reply to Mind/Body/Dominance (Lefty Here), posted by shar on June 24, 2000, at 17:20:49
> But, problems were believed to stem from this feature. Left-handed people are significantly more likely than "people in general" to be found in psychiatric populations (hospitals). And, lefties tend to be overrepresented in certain occupations, such as architecture, and the arts. The docs cited the different cerebral organization as contributing to this.
>
> However, to throw a wrench into things, docs have a hard time determining handedness because it is unusual to find "pure" lefties or "pure" righties (but moreso pure lefties). And that begs the question of ambidexterity and how that plays out.
>
> Nobody had looked at ambidexies much when I turned in the paper.
>
> SharShar -
I'm a lefty too, and I have a degree in Art and Architecture, as well as having a rich history of depression, anxiety and ADD. Hmmm....Actually, the is a recent book out on handiness, I think it's called THE LEFT HANDED SYNDROME. I've also found a bunch of web sites for left handers and studies of handiness. Some have a test you can take to see just how left or right dominated you are. I turned out to be mildly left handed and close to ambidextrous.
My daughter is also left handed and very left dominant.
Sara T
Posted by shar on June 27, 2000, at 15:26:21
In reply to Re: Mind/Body/Dominance (Lefty Here), posted by Sara T on June 27, 2000, at 9:20:58
I turned out to be mildly left handed and close to ambidextrous.
>
> My daughter is also left handed and very left dominant.
>
> Sara TSara,
Well, your educational background and mental health sure back up what the docs said! Pretty unbelievable -- art and architecture!!
I wonder if kids now can be more left handed than when I was growing up (50's) and starting school. I was allowed to write with my left hand, but it was a right handed world. I wonder if your daughter has more lefty latitude that may allow her to choose her left hand more?
I am very ambidextrous, as is my mom who would have been a lefty but had to use her right hand in school, ...the bad old days.
I was married to a carpenter who was profoundly left-handed/footed/etc. It was so weird to see him cut with scissors and sharpen a pencil and stir things, etc. with his left hand! And, to use power tools, hammers, etc. I'm a righty for all of that!
Secretly, I like being a little different....
Shar
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