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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Janice on February 17, 2000, at 0:30:19
Prior to starting medication, all my dreams were nightmares.
Now, either I don't dream, don't dream as much, or I don't remember the dreams I do have.
Sometimes, upon waking, I have a reocurring temporary sensation of guilt and shame because I forgotten that I still have a horse and have forgotten to feed her or call the ferrier for 10 years. I must have been dreaming this, but can never remember the dream.
Anyway the guilt and shame is based on reality, but exagerated drastically. I lost interest in my horse near the end of our relationship together. I abandonned her emotionally, not with her physical care.
But now I have difficulty distinguishing between reality and the powerful forces of the guilt and shame that can overwhelm me at times.
So my questions are:
How do you get rid of this type of reoccuring dream?
I used to talk about it with my psychiatrist, which helped. But now it's coming back again.
What disorder is something like this associated with?
Posted by torchgrl on February 17, 2000, at 0:48:25
In reply to Reoccuring Dreams ... guilt and shame, posted by Janice on February 17, 2000, at 0:30:19
> Prior to starting medication, all my dreams were nightmares.
>
> Now, either I don't dream, don't dream as much, or I don't remember the dreams I do have.
>
> Sometimes, upon waking, I have a reocurring temporary sensation of guilt and shame because I forgotten that I still have a horse and have forgotten to feed her or call the ferrier for 10 years. I must have been dreaming this, but can never remember the dream.
>
> Anyway the guilt and shame is based on reality, but exagerated drastically. I lost interest in my horse near the end of our relationship together. I abandonned her emotionally, not with her physical care.
>
> But now I have difficulty distinguishing between reality and the powerful forces of the guilt and shame that can overwhelm me at times.
>
> So my questions are:
>
> How do you get rid of this type of reoccuring dream?
>
> I used to talk about it with my psychiatrist, which helped. But now it's coming back again.
>
> What disorder is something like this associated with?
>
>
Janice,
Some (most?) antidepressants seem to affect REM sleep in varying ways, so that may account for the changes in dreams. Guilt and shame are considered to be typical components of depression (and, I would imagine, anxiety disorders)--could that be magnifying the latent feelings you have about your horse, or about other things in your life? Particularly if the feelings are causing you to have dreams with that theme... The best way to deal with this, if it resonates with real issues in you, is to discuss it with your therapist. I could try to theorise on symbolism (have you been neglecting something/someone you care about, or an area of your life that you need to start paying attention to again? yourself? etc.), but talking it out with someone might be most helpful.
Posted by dj on February 17, 2000, at 3:19:23
In reply to Reoccuring Dreams ... guilt and shame, posted by Janice on February 17, 2000, at 0:30:19
> Sometimes, upon waking, I have a reocurring >temporary sensation of guilt and shameHey Janice,
Sorry to hear that you are feeling kinda off still. Check out my I'm back post above and the book I reference -- 'A Manual for Life' In it there are some interesting distinctions which I've come to concur with and deeply appreciate. One is between guilt and shame -- the former is seen as unhealthy, the latter the contrary.
Guilt would be characterized by a tightening, cooling shutting down sensation whereas shame by warm flushes and perhaps blushing. The former is a learned response, the latter natural. They have 7.5 pages on the distinctions which you'll have to investigate for yourself if interested.
They wrap up that section with the following comments: "In guilt one is fixated, and no growth is possible; with the self-recognition in shame, growth can occur. Guilt promotes dependence on the external; shame fosters a feeling of freedom and self-reliance. Guilt is usually followed by depression: shame brings remorse with a fullness of feelings about the self. Guilt operates by obligation; shame involves being self-responsible. Guilt invites punishment, retribution, and forgiveness from another (and hence fosters dependency); shame invokes repentence and permits freedom and personal growth."
I prefer shame to guilt myself, which explains to some degree why I don't have a lot of time for the often practiced interpretation of Xtianity, as it too often fosters guilt and I prefer not to buy in.
I just checked to see if there was any reference to ADD as I know it's one of your pet foci. Lots on attention but not on that distinciton, unless it's not cited. I commend the book and their programs to you. Given that it's spring-like here in Vancouver and generally sunnier on Gabriola Island a weekend there might do you good, & it's only a hop, skip and a jump over the mountains and Georgia Strait and there you are, wherever you go... ; )
Frankly, J&B and their compassionate ways and teachings and their applications probably did as much to help get me through the past hellish year as ADs and probably much more, overall, in the long run. But as some long past commentator once wrote (some famous economist whose name is escaping me right now -- ahh... John Maynard Keynes (sp?) ): "In the long run, we are all dead.", so spend that money and have that good time now, cuz you never know about tomorrow...
Posted by bob on February 17, 2000, at 16:58:24
In reply to Re: Reoccuring Dreams ... guilt and shame, posted by dj on February 17, 2000, at 3:19:23
dj, that's an interesting perspective on guilt and shame ... I disagree substantially with it, but its interesting nonetheless.
As an alternative, I'll put forward the attributional view of things. Attribution theory centers on what causes people attribute to the experiences they have and "how the world treats them." We usually don't go through any conscious process of attribution unless something bad and/or unexpected happens. What's important is not so much the specific content of the attribution, but the characteristics or dimensions of the cause of the event. (1) is the LOCUS -- is the cause inside you or outside of you. (2) is CONTROL -- was the cause controllable or not. (3) is STABILITY -- does it happen all the time or just once or erratically. Some folks also toss in a fourth dimension of GLOBALITY -- is it related to something specific or does it apply across a range of phenomena.
That all said, making a causal attribution can provoke an emotional response. Guilt is associated with an internal, controllable event. You were wrong, you have the capability not to be wrong in the future. Shame, however, is related to internal, uncontrollable events. Shame can thus lead to feelings of helplessness -- you're trapped with something bad that you can't get rid of.
It's important to know, tho, that this all comes out of social cognitive theory, so we're talking about attribution as a learned process that is framed by one's cultural context. Belching loudly may be shameful behavior to one culture, but to another (say, American adolescents) it can be a sign of high status. Go figure. (Yes, I'm bitter because I could never come up with a good belch on demand ... my dog is a better belcher than me ... but that's beside the point)
(ahem) ... since this is stuff we learn, we learn our perspectives on what is controllable and what isn't. We learn to be helpless in such situations. So, we should be able to learn NOT to be helpless.
So, Janice, whatever your take on guilt and shame, it still gets back to this being your dreams and what they represent, if not to be taken literally. I hope either dj's or my little lectures on the psychology of guilt and shame help you decode the source of this.
One thing to consider -- both views on guilt and shame put matters more as guilt vs shame. Does it feel like more of one than the other?
bob
Posted by Janice on February 18, 2000, at 15:58:25
In reply to Re: Reoccuring Dreams ... guilt and shame, posted by bob on February 17, 2000, at 16:58:24
thanks guys,
It's all guilt, no shame! These feelings are about not living up to my own standards. Especially since my horse completely relied on me for her life.
But it is ridiculous. I've talked with my sister (who also boarded her horse at the same stable), and she barely remembered this. Eventually, she remembered that she fed my horse a few meals over a couple of months, and when I went travelling, she took care of her.
Somehow, I think I am comparing myself to the people that abused me.
I am hoping that writing about it, and talking with my sister will make these dreams go away.
You all sound far too clever to be depressed!
and dj, "In the long run, we are all dead." this could be the depressed persons motto! Janice
Posted by bob on February 18, 2000, at 18:05:07
In reply to Re: Reoccuring Dreams ... guilt and shame, posted by Janice on February 18, 2000, at 15:58:25
> You all sound far too clever to be depressed!
"Great wits are sure to madness near allied,
and thin partitions do their bounds divide."That's from John Dryden, a contemporary of Shakespeare's. Maybe we so clever because we are depressed...or vice versa...
> and dj, "In the long run, we are all dead." this could be the depressed persons motto! Janice
Reminds me of a famous misquote of Hobbes: "Life is nasty, brutish, futile, and short." I'd say *that* would also have a chance at being the motto, if only it had been "long" instead of "short"--in that context, "short" sounds rather optimistic.
;^)
bob
Posted by Noa on February 18, 2000, at 22:28:11
In reply to guilt and shame, being clever and the Fine Line, posted by bob on February 18, 2000, at 18:05:07
One of the reasons I am so so happy you are back!
Posted by dj on February 19, 2000, at 0:56:07
In reply to Re: Reoccuring Dreams ... guilt and shame, posted by bob on February 17, 2000, at 16:58:24
Like all theories, reality may be a mix of the two and more. What I like about J&B's work is that they draw from their own experiences and observations in 25 years or so of workshops, relationship(s) and some solid traning in both eastern and western theories about phyical and emotional health. And their theories are demonstrated in amazing ways in their workshops.
In reflection, as I told my naturopath today, my work with them was some of the best healing work I've done in the past year and years. And I've done lots from lots of points of views. They had the most integrity and compassion in their words and actions, and they were damm funny too.
However, as I noted elsewhere the acupuncture and bodywork I've had done has helped significantly as I have regained both physical and mental agility. Choosing good and compassionate professionals made a difference, as well as the health system in BC which covers up to 12 sessions of chiro. and massage per year, as well as naturopathy sessions, MDs and psychs., though the last two are the least effective of the lot in my experience.
As to J&B's distinctions between guilt vs shame. They make perfect sense to me, having experienced the difference once I got out of my head and back into my body and emotions (ie. -- energy in motion). And the feedback I'm getting from folks who know me is pretty positive as my resilience, curiosity, passion and humour have rebounded as I've integrated much of my learnings, including bits and pieces I've gleaned from exchanges here in babbleland.
> dj, that's an interesting perspective on guilt and shame ... I disagree substantially with it, but its interesting nonetheless.
>
> As an alternative, I'll put forward the attributional view of things.
Posted by dj on February 19, 2000, at 1:12:04
In reply to Re: Reoccuring Dreams ... guilt and shame, posted by Janice on February 18, 2000, at 15:58:25
Janice,
Distorted thinking, obssession, guilt and so on are all hallmarks of depression and chances are their may be a bit of perfectionism in your thought patterns. Research studies (including one I participated in at UBC) show strong links between perfectionism and anxiety and depression. Perfectionism, as in ridiculously high and unachievable expectations of yourself. As tough as it may be being human means having to let go of expectations - the good, the bad and the ugly -- to truly be healthy, or so the buddha taught. Simple but not easy.
As far as being depressed, I'm not. Just a little sad at times. However, again taking J&B's teachings (by example) and those of others to heart as I re-learn to express my full range of emotions in a timely and appropriate manner and to forgive myself when I don't, that has a healing capacity. First I needed to get myself to that place of health where I could maintain and build upon that hard-earned resilience. And that's exactly what I've been doing, in many ways.
As for JMK's quote I see it as a what, me worry comment. As a P.McShane, a former lapsed-Jesuit, Irish philosophy teacher used to exclaim in his eloquent brogue to my Reason and Argumentation class at Mount Saint Vincent U.:"If you've got a problem check to see that it's not just a twist in your knickers (or bra-strap)". Truly a wise man!!
BTW, buddhists like cogntivie scientists believe that your feelings are based on what you are telling yourself at some level and that meditation can help you detach you from the rage of your e-motions while experiencing them fully.
>These feelings are about not living up to my own standards. Especially since my horse completely relied on me for her life.
>
> Somehow, I think I am comparing myself to the people that abused me.
> You all sound far too clever to be depressed!
>
> and dj, "In the long run, we are all dead." this could be the depressed persons motto! Janice
Posted by Janice on February 19, 2000, at 18:36:56
In reply to Re: Reoccuring Dreams ... guilt and shame, posted by dj on February 19, 2000, at 1:12:04
yes dj, I was once a terrible perfectionist (I was an anorexic dancer), but I like to think that part of my life is over. Now I only allow myself to be a perfectionist very rarely, and then only when my heart is involved. And, of course, I can afford the luxury of being a perfectionist.
Probably this perfectionism has been coming back in the form of this dream because I am depressed. I think I told you I'm manic depressive, and it's completely driven by the amount of light in the sky, so I am always depressed in January and February. Plus, I am not on any anti-depressant. I should be fine by the middle of March.
Thanks for your insights, they help alot!
Glad to hear you're feeling much better. Who are J&B? You've always seemed to know that you are better off without medication.
Some of my cousins went to Mount Saint Vincent U.
I still meditate every day, and it is a wonderful relief. It makes me feel like I can finally get out of my skin.
You're a complicated person dj, Janice
This is the end of the thread.
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