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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by CarolAnn on January 26, 2000, at 11:20:10
I've been thinking lately about all the composers, writers, painters, ect. who are known to have had some form of mental illness, usually depression. It seems as if I have read of alot of other historically famous people (Winston Churchill for example) who also suffered depression. I wonder if there is any connection between being creative(or intelligent) and having depression. Why do you suppose that so many "Greats" have this in common? Have there been any studies on this subject? What do you suppose it is that drives some of the depressed to such high achievement while so many of us can barely keep ourselves alive? Any ideas out there?CarolAnn
Posted by Abby on January 26, 2000, at 18:54:47
In reply to artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by CarolAnn on January 26, 2000, at 11:20:10
> I've been thinking lately about all the composers, writers, painters, ect. who are known to have had some form of mental illness, usually depression. It seems as if I have read of alot of other historically famous people (Winston Churchill for example) who also suffered depression. I wonder if there is any connection between being creative(or intelligent) and having depression. Why do you suppose that so many "Greats" have this in common? Have there been any studies on this subject? What do you suppose it is that drives some of the depressed to such high achievement while so many of us can barely keep ourselves alive? Any ideas out there?CarolAnn
Yes, Kay Jamison wrote "Touched with Fire: Manic-Depressive Illness
and the Artistic Temperament." It doesn't make you intelligent, but
in those populations there does appear to be a higher than average rate
of mood disorders.Churchill may have had bipolar II, though the depression (his black dog)
was much more pronounced.Also, about Churchill. Just remember that he came
from one of England's most prominent families and
had plenty of connections. Also, he always had
plenty of servants and a secretary.Abby
Posted by quilter on January 27, 2000, at 1:24:57
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by Abby on January 26, 2000, at 18:54:47
> > I've been thinking lately about all the composers, writers, painters, ect. who are known to have had some form of mental illness, usually depression. It seems as if I have read of alot of other historically famous people (Winston Churchill for example) who also suffered depression. I wonder if there is any connection between being creative(or intelligent) and having depression. Why do you suppose that so many "Greats" have this in common? Have there been any studies on this subject? What do you suppose it is that drives some of the depressed to such high achievement while so many of us can barely keep ourselves alive? Any ideas out there?CarolAnn
>
> Yes, Kay Jamison wrote "Touched with Fire: Manic-Depressive Illness
> and the Artistic Temperament." It doesn't make you intelligent, but
> in those populations there does appear to be a higher than average rate
> of mood disorders.
>
> Churchill may have had bipolar II, though the depression (his black dog)
> was much more pronounced.
>
> Also, about Churchill. Just remember that he came
> from one of England's most prominent families and
> had plenty of connections. Also, he always had
> plenty of servants and a secretary.
>
> AbbyOur family history supports a connection between creativity and mental illness. My sister is a computer programmer, and my brother is an electrical engineer. They are the only siblings (there are six of us) who have escaped. Bill says its because the two of them are completely free of imagination. Not true, but perhaps a more concrete, down to earth thinking pattern makes it easier to control the emotional rollercoaster. The theory seems to be supported also by what I have learned about previous generations as well. I, for one, would gladly trade some of my creativity for some stability and energy to make ideas take shape. Quilter
Posted by JohnB on January 27, 2000, at 2:25:17
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by quilter on January 27, 2000, at 1:24:57
I think when human genetics is fully understood,
genetic predisposition for creativity, on one hand, and depressive illness, on the other, will be not too far apart.
Posted by saint james on January 27, 2000, at 10:59:20
In reply to artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by CarolAnn on January 26, 2000, at 11:20:10
The smarter or more creative you are the more there the more there is to worry about.
james
Posted by Brandon on January 27, 2000, at 11:07:00
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by saint james on January 27, 2000, at 10:59:20
So dumb uncreative people dont worry as much?
That is quite a broad generalization St. James.
Posted by dove on January 27, 2000, at 12:26:30
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by Brandon on January 27, 2000, at 11:07:00
I believe some of the mood disorders prevalent in the 'artistic temperment' (generalization) have to do with a number of traits and/or behavioral tendencies, such as: oversensitivity, immature central nervous systems, mania-induced grandeur, depression-induced detachment (indifference). The public and private failures of creative folks seems to invigorate instability, as it does for noncreative folks, one just doesn't hear about them as often as those "special" people who dwell in the limelight.
From personal experience, I have found distinct traits in my creative relatives, neurotic-obsessive-compulsive behavior, sadness (actually depression) over real or perceived failures, the grandeur with real or perceived success, the super-sensitivity over perceived criticism, all these almost child-like qualities surround the creatives of my family tree. Lightning quick tempers and big mouths that never think before they speak. We, me and my creative relatives, dance in the limelight, the life of the party, all eyes on us, Please. But, we're moody, nasty-tempered, hot-cold, introverts. How we avoid social gatherings like the plague and then suddenly show-up and entertain the crowd with our superb wit and humor (gag!)
So, what I see of the link between creativity and mood disorders is the same link I see in so-called noncreative people, I just think they have better reserves for dealing with it. The disordered coverage is so much greater in the creatives, they let everyone see their zaniness, their moods. My relatives who don't have the giftings, as they call it, have so much more self-control, so much more self-knowledge, and much stronger ability to let the bad stuff bounce off them. If they think they're starting to act like Great Grandma, they get to the doctor, they seek help, they don't announce it on a bull horn with asinine behavior like some of us :-)
It's like the crossed wires of the brain affect many people from all categories, but the creatives can't help themselves in any constructive way. I am sure many people from all walks of life struggle with depression, but are able to deal with it constructively, or are able to respond in such a manner that we don't categorize it as depression, or bipolar. Thus, we don't hear about them, nor do we see the fall-out
Really rambling today,
dove.
Posted by Sean on January 27, 2000, at 16:42:11
In reply to artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by CarolAnn on January 26, 2000, at 11:20:10
> I've been thinking lately about all the composers, writers, painters, ect. who are known to have had some form of mental illness, usually depression. It seems as if I have read of alot of other historically famous people (Winston Churchill for example) who also suffered depression. I wonder if there is any connection between being creative(or intelligent) and having depression. Why do you suppose that so many "Greats" have this in common? Have there been any studies on this subject? What do you suppose it is that drives some of the depressed to such high achievement while so many of us can barely keep ourselves alive? Any ideas out there?CarolAnn
Wow.
This question is complex and probably has several
answers. One idea I've had about this, and it appears
to be true with all my friends who are artstically
inclined, is that we all seem to experience our
feelings and moods in ways that are larger than
the average person. In other words, the subjective
experience of emotion is "front page news" to our
nervous system and thus they dominate our lives in
unusual ways.So I think to myself "Are the feelings I'm having
the same as what other people experience?" or am
I just more focused on them? I personally believe (and there
is ample biological evidence for this) that what
I experience in depression or hypomania is in
fact an unusal biochemical state. These states of
mind really "grab my attention" and as I try to understand
and cope with these feelings, my experience of the
world and self changes accordingly. Ordinary people
having extraordinary internal experiences perhaps.
It's hard to say I guess. Say you see a person crying
as they listen to a cheesy Phil Collins song, and
you think "how can they be having the same subjective
experience of melancholy that I have with my obscure
and refined catalog of dark CD's?" Well, I beleive they
do not have the same "experience", though tears my fall
in both cases and both are human beings deserving
full respect for our feelings. My answer is that
artistic capacity is the ability to observe and communicate
a wider range of emotional nuance and the related symbolic
specificity than the average bear. Having an antense
inner world is instructive in this case. (Ok, now shoot
me for being an elitist!)With respect to art (creativity expressed in the
domain of feelings) it is then natural for this
activity to be dominated by people whose life is
characterized by strong experiences of feeling and
the thoughts, insights, and coping mechanisms
which go along with it. Maybe to express an inch
you've got to feel a mile. I dunno.I believe think there are enormous differences
in the brains of say Joni Mitchell vs. a Spice Girl.
At some point this difference must be expresses in
the biology, as in, the neuronal process we call
the "self" and its attendent idiosyncrasies. This
makes sense to me anyway.Sean.
Of course not all creative people have these
characteristics, but it does seem to be that many
artistic "heavyweights" are.
Posted by JohnB on January 28, 2000, at 2:46:04
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by Sean on January 27, 2000, at 16:42:11
These are some of the best posts I've ever seen on this board (in the non-med department). Obviously, some of you have thought about this subject a lot.
I'll say this, if your a creative/imaginative type, you might as well be from the planet Zontar as far as the general society is concerned. Thats why artists tend to gather in certain neighborhoods in the cities. As for "normals", I've long ago stopped trying to "fit in", it's a waste of time. Artists and/or imaginative people are the only one's who feel three dimensional to me.
And yet, and this echos Dove's post, some creatives wouldn't know the difference between a real human relationship and a whack on the head with a 2 by 4. And they can play some of the most vicious games you can imagine. And yet . . . and yet.
As for the imagination/depression connection, how about this: Imagination is a sword that cuts both ways. It takes you to amazing visions, ways of seeing.
But if it turns on you - look out! - it can show you things you'd really rather not see. The trick is to remember it's imagination.
Posted by Noa on January 28, 2000, at 5:10:37
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by JohnB on January 28, 2000, at 2:46:04
When I was younger, my creative self was a lot more active, and it was tied closely to my emotional sensitivity and tendency toward depression. It was like the boundaries that keep the feelings from spilling into the waking mind didn't exist or were weaker. It was like having a window open to the wind at all times, and being drawn to the breeze and away from the work of life. My imagination was always in gear. I would spend entire class sessions in college totally engaged in imaginative dreams and totally unengaged in the lecture or discussion, except to look like I was turning the text page at the right time. It was an escape that I needed, but it also made me vulnerable and unprotected.
At that time, I also was very open to poetic imagery, and did write some poetry.
Over the years, though, that part of myself has grown dormant. I haven't written poetry in eons. It feels like, just as my depressive tendencies opened me to my creative self back then, now I have become jaded by my depression, too cynical to allow my creative self to be expressed. There is a lot less "romance" in my depressed feelings. My depression has felt more DEADENING in recent years, and less evocative of the artistic spirit.
Posted by JohnB on January 28, 2000, at 13:40:06
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by Noa on January 28, 2000, at 5:10:37
Noa, if your creative self is dormant, it can always wake up someday. If your depression is now under control, you might want to reawaken that part of yourself.
Perhaps your posts on this board (always well written, considered), are your creative side coming out.
Posted by Cass on January 28, 2000, at 16:14:47
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by JohnB on January 28, 2000, at 13:40:06
A tidbit: Someone once told me that author Alice Walker was hearing voices before writing The Color Purple. Apparently they were guiding her to people and places that inspired her writing. Ironic that under less fortuitous circumstances she might have ended up in a hospital doped up on Thorazine.
Posted by CarolAnn on January 28, 2000, at 17:50:03
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by Noa on January 28, 2000, at 5:10:37
Wow, Noa, you and I must be psychic (or maybe psycho) twins or something. Every time I read a post where you are describing some aspect of yourself, I think "boy that sounds just like me!". I have always used my imagination in exactly the same way you did, as an escape. And now I find myself unable to really reach the same depths of imagining that I used to. But that might be a good thing in a way. I have wasted an incredible amount of time in my "dream" worlds.
Sometimes, I think it is almost a curse to have a great imagination, at least for me, because I find it way too easy to focus my imaginings of how things *could* be, rather then actually trying to make good things out of the reality of my life. I mean, I find that even when something really great happens to me, I can always imagine how it could have been better, thus taking away most of the pleasure of what actually happened! How self defeating is that?CarolAnn
Posted by Adam on January 28, 2000, at 17:50:10
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by Cass on January 28, 2000, at 16:14:47
I used to write poetry too, when I was in my late teens and early twenties. Some of it was pretty good, most of it stank. Anyway, I also lost my taste for it for years, but after selegiline really kicked in, I found I felt like writing a couple things down. I even made up a couple little tunes on my guitar, which I also used to do all the time, and then forgot about during my mid-to-late twenties. It's interesting: what I used to write for poetry could sometimes be pretty horrifying in its intensity and despair. My songs (none of them very complex, but, y'know, listenable) were all very sad minor key kind of compositions, or very rough and dissonant. Some people did seem to like them, though.
The latest poem I wrote was kind of a love poem, and the latest song, though having a definite wistful quality that I imagine will be a signature of mine forever, is certainly more upbeat than anything I ever wrote before. And it's also better than anything I wrote before melodically. But it seems to be more bland and conventional.I don't know. I think my little amateur art projects have probably lost some of their punch, and, to damn with faint praise, are now probably more "pleasant" than anything, if one were inclined to complement them at all. But I still like to create things, when the mood takes me. It doesn't seem that antidepressants have killed my creativity (as some say they will), but the things I create do lack the old angst, and, perhaps, most of the old power.
Why is angst so fashionable? Why do euthymics find it so alluring to watch suicidal artists writhe in agony (å la Kurt Kobain, for instance, the most popular pop icon of the early 90s)?
I'll never be an Anne Sexton, that's for sure. I wish I could write like that. But sometimes I wonder...I'm grateful for her art, her sadness spoke to me, but what did it get her, in the end? Though many feel her return to writing later in life prolonged it, she was vaunted laregely for her eloquent expressions of dissatisfaction and despair. The world is better for her contribution to it, but she died as she shouldn't have. Was she a sacrifice?
Posted by justin groom on January 28, 2000, at 19:14:31
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by Adam on January 28, 2000, at 17:50:10
well i am an illustrator not a poet, so bear with me. growing up i was always the center of attention, and i always put on a show. people would always ask for an autograph, saying i would be famous some day, ha- only after i kill myself, maybe.
i would go through the manic phase of depression fueled by drugs and alcohol while working, i guess it was expected of me. i proceeded to alienate my clients and developed a 'bad rep" as a artist / illustrator. always going over-budget and time, although the end results were crowd pleasers :).
i now do computer work, and have been fighting depression for a while.i have no insurance, so i frenquently go off meds for a while. now on remeron for 2 days. i want to get my act back in gear to do artwork again, becuase everybody says i am wasting a natural talent. but i just don't have my act together enough just to climb outta bed every day....
they say their is no greater burden than great potental, and i believe i have delusions of grandeur.
i have no desire to draw at the moment but think about it all the time, i do tend to try to live in a dream world,(hence i try to sleep alot) and the remeron seems to enhance that for now... heheh.
someday i'll get my act in gear again.
Posted by Kim on January 31, 2000, at 1:19:24
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by JohnB on January 28, 2000, at 13:40:06
> Noa, if your creative self is dormant, it can always wake up someday. If your depression is now under control, you might want to reawaken that part of yourself.
> Perhaps your posts on this board (always well written, considered), are your creative side coming out.
As my depression deepens, I find myself less able to ACT on my creative impulses. I lie in bed all day and still THINK about the projects I want to do--I've even planned some of them (in my head) down to tiny details. But I have no energy to fulfill them.But since I no longer express my art, my ideas are becoming fewer and further between. Maybe I should write them down--I wonder if they'll sound as good if/when I stop falling down the black hole?
As for intelligence, my observation has been that genuinely "perky" people usually are not particularly bright. Don't flame me, I'm sure there's an exception out there somewhere. There are days I'd gladly choose "perky" for myself over intelligence.
Kim
Posted by Kev on January 31, 2000, at 12:21:00
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by Kim on January 31, 2000, at 1:19:24
> As my depression deepens, I find myself less able to ACT on my creative impulses. I lie in bed all day and still THINK about the projects I want to do--I've even planned some of them (in my head) down to tiny details. But I have no energy to fulfill them.
>
> But since I no longer express my art, my ideas are becoming fewer and further between. Maybe I should write them down--I wonder if they'll sound as good if/when I stop falling down the black hole?
>
> As for intelligence, my observation has been that genuinely "perky" people usually are not particularly bright.***If you are having ideas for projects which seem to be good, you should DEFINITELY write them down for future reference when you're feeling good enough to actually try to carry them out. That way, you've already got half the battle accomplished. Don't worry- if the ideas really do suck, the only thing you'll have wasted is paper and ink, but if the ideas WERE good and you end up forgetting what they are, it will prove to be a royal pain to reconstruct them (insofar as this is possible at all). Last summer, I came up with ton of ideas, fragments, and leads towards my Ph.D project, but in my despondency didn't write them down; I am seriously starting to regret it.
-Kev
Posted by sara on January 31, 2000, at 17:22:27
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by Kev on January 31, 2000, at 12:21:00
>
>
>
> > As my depression deepens, I find myself less able to ACT on my creative impulses. I lie in bed all day and still THINK about the projects I want to do--I've even planned some of them (in my head) down to tiny details. But I have no energy to fulfill them.
> >
> > But since I no longer express my art, my ideas are becoming fewer and further between. Maybe I should write them down--I wonder if they'll sound as good if/when I stop falling down the black hole?
> >
> > As for intelligence, my observation has been that genuinely "perky" people usually are not particularly bright.
>
> ***If you are having ideas for projects which seem to be good, you should DEFINITELY write them down for future reference when you're feeling good enough to actually try to carry them out. That way, you've already got half the battle accomplished. Don't worry- if the ideas really do suck, the only thing you'll have wasted is paper and ink, but if the ideas WERE good and you end up forgetting what they are, it will prove to be a royal pain to reconstruct them (insofar as this is possible at all). Last summer, I came up with ton of ideas, fragments, and leads towards my Ph.D project, but in my despondency didn't write them down; I am seriously starting to regret it.
>
> -KevWhoa. The experiences you've all been gracious enough to share resonate so much with my daily life experience. I come from a family of artists, primarily singers and musicians. Education is highly valued--MAs, MSs, PhDs, MDs. (Did anyone get a degree in how to relate to other people? Nope.) I oved the novella written by someone on his family experience.
ANYWAY, as for me, somewhere in the last ten years, I began keeping count of how many seconds someone knew me before spouting out the word "energy", or one of its derivatives, in connection with me. Or the word "intense". Or "funny". I began keeping count of how many such individuals I came across, how many men, women, and their ages, backgrounds, ethnicities. Only because I couldn't believe it. And then sometimes I could. Believe, that is. Finally I stopped keeping track, because these opinions seemed to be shared universally by people who encountered me(and the sample size was statistically significant).
Last week I decided that I am orange juice concentrate with cloves sealed in a container which moves from freezer to boiling water, back and forth,in some nonlinear connect-the-dot fashion. Most people I've met can't drink me unless they open up the container, put me on room temperature, add water, and mix. Sometimes I get tired of me in all my spicy sour sweetness, but the fear of being bland keeps me on my rollercoaster. After having taken Zoloft for about one year, I just stopped cold turkey so that I could feel my tears again in the way that I used to. The doctor was planning to take me off of it anyway as I am ramping up on Depakote as a mood stabilizer with which antidepressants make things worse. I am hoping this will this help my writing, my singing, my playing? Help me stop sabotaging? I've been told this will help me concentrate, but I still feel so wild in my thoughts and behavior. . .and it is so much easier to just kill the music inside me and play soccer or work or take on some new activity. My pursuit of music is the greatest source of uncertainty in my life, yet it brings me the greatest pleasure. High risk does not guarantee a high reward.
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 18:15:56
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by sara on January 31, 2000, at 17:22:27
The world is inhabited by people of verying termeraments, falling on a continuum between two poles, that I like to call The Artist and The Engineer.
The Artist is the one who goes out on the limb for the experience of it, and then, while there, decides if the limb will hold him or her up.
The Engineer checks it out, studies it, examines it to determine if it will hold him or her up, before venturing out.
The world needs both termperaments, and all those in between.
Posted by quilter on February 1, 2000, at 0:47:03
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 18:15:56
> The world is inhabited by people of verying termeraments, falling on a continuum between two poles, that I like to call The Artist and The Engineer.
>
> The Artist is the one who goes out on the limb for the experience of it, and then, while there, decides if the limb will hold him or her up.
>
> The Engineer checks it out, studies it, examines it to determine if it will hold him or her up, before venturing out.
>
> The world needs both termperaments, and all those in between.I have found a book called "the Artists Way" to be useful in my attempts to develop the courage to call myself an artist as well as to learn some techniques to help overcome the inertia of depression. The author has set up various exercises to help people find the creativity that we all have, and to form good work habits. I also found the only believable affirmations ( for me). A valuable bonus! Quilter
Posted by DICK on February 1, 2000, at 13:31:29
In reply to artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by CarolAnn on January 26, 2000, at 11:20:10
> I've been thinking lately about all the composers, writers, painters, ect. who are known to have had some form of mental illness, usually depression. It seems as if I have read of alot of other historically famous people (Winston Churchill for example) who also suffered depression. I wonder if there is any connection between being creative(or intelligent) and having depression. Why do you suppose that so many "Greats" have this in common? Have there been any studies on this subject? What do you suppose it is that drives some of the depressed to such high achievement while so many of us can barely keep ourselves alive? Any ideas out there?CarolAnn
IT's LiKe, I'lL bE jamMIng On MY guItAR OR soMetHiNG StUPid lIkE ThAT, anD I'Ll suDDenLY PUke alL oVeR ThE fronT oF my DUKes Of hAZzArd t-ShiRt. I'LL uSuALLy StoP aNd LoOK DOWn, All eXcItEd ThaT mayBE I fiNaLLY Had DOne SoMThInG CrEAtIVe, aND WhEn I Do, i'lL uSuAllY GeT ProfouNdlY DePReSsEd beCaUSe thE vOmIt DiDn'T spRaY RiGHT Or WhaTeVEr, i kNow I CaN Be MoRe CReATIve BuT THE StUPid guItaR AlWaYs GetS In tHe WAy i get dEpreSSeD sO EasILY, i WOnDer If I'M aN ArtiSte. SinCe ThIS Is whAt We'Re DiSCUsSiNG, i wAs HopInG For AnYoNe'S ThOuGHtS On thE maTtEr. i apOloGiSe FoR aLl My cAtHaRsiS.
Posted by Kev on February 1, 2000, at 14:54:33
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by DICK on February 1, 2000, at 13:31:29
Where can I buy a Dukes Of Hazzard T-Shirt??
-Kev
Posted by olive on August 10, 2003, at 17:10:51
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by Noa on January 28, 2000, at 5:10:37
In response to Noa's: "My depression has felt more DEADENING in recent years, and less evocative of the artistic spirit."
I have been making art "professionally" (or whatever) for about 13 years, and have fought my way through each body of work...it has almost always been a difficult and profoundly stressful process for me. Ironic because so many people seem to think that being an artist is so "fun" and "interesting"...how great to sit around all day and "be creative." This has not been my experience. I see now that my artistic practice has been an ongoing attempt to come to terms with grief and depression. I do not view or experience my art as therapuetic because it does not seem to help the depression. It's simply its voice. And the voice has gotten louder and louder over the past year, to the point of feeling deadening...it is drowning out that angry spark that used to be the mechanism which flipped me from dormant(the idea generating phase) to productive (making work).
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 23, 2003, at 8:28:45
In reply to Re: artists and depression (discussion fodder), posted by olive on August 10, 2003, at 17:10:51
> In response to Noa's: "My depression has felt more DEADENING in recent years, and less evocative of the artistic spirit."
>
> I have been making art "professionally" (or whatever) for about 13 years...This is a great discussion, but since it's not about medication, I'd like to redirect it to Psycho-Social-Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030818/msgs/253328.html
Bob
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