![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by corkskru on February 3, 2013, at 1:13:04
In reply to please join me, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2013, at 3:58:09
> I feel disappointed that I wasn't a more effective teacher of civility.Dr. Bob, I feel that you are feeling partly responsible for the temporary break-down in civility that recently occurred. I don't feel that you or anyone else could have "taught" a community to displace emotions and think logically when such emotional (and personal) news is suddenly released. You stepped in and have initiated a new tool set to help buffer misunderstandings that are easy to react to and hard to convey when only written words are used. So I feel to rephrase what we thought we are reading/reacting to makes lots of sense and hopefully will be implemented before our emotional triggers are set-off.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 3, 2013, at 1:13:05
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
>
> > I feel disappointed that I wasn't a more effective teacher of civility.
>
> One might be the best teacher ever and be quite effective. Others may still choose not to follow your teachings. I know I do at times. Please don't assume that you have that much control. It could drive you bonkers.
>
> ggahahaha
i found this and it reminded me:
`With his uncanny powers, Mesmer is closer to the ancient magician than to the twentieth-century psychotherapist. His victory over Gassner reminds one more of a contest between rival Alaskan shamans than of a modern psychiatric controversy. However, his doctrine contained the seeds of several basic tenants of modern psychiatry:
A magnetizer, Mesmer proclaimed, is the therapeutic agent of his cures: his power lies in himself. To make healing possible, he must first establish a rapport, that is a kind of ``tuning in,'' with his patient. Healing occurs through crises - manifestations of latent diseases produced artificially by the magnetizer so that he may control them. It is better to produce several, steadily weaker ones than one severe crisis. In collective treatment the magnetizer should control the reactions of the patients on one another.
Mesmer grouped his disciples into a society in which physicians and lay magnetizers were on an equal footing. Its members, who had made heavy financial sacrifices, learned his doctrine, discussed the results of their therapeutic work, and maintained the unity of the movement.
It is an open question as to whether Mesmer was a precursor of dynamic psychiatry or its actual founder. Any pioneer is always the successor of previous ones and the precursor of others. There is no doubt, however, that the development of modern dynamic psychiatry can be traced to Mesmer's animal magnetism, and that posterity has been remarkably ungrateful to him.'
Ellenberger, H. F. (1970). The Discovery of the Unconscious: The History and Evolution of Dynamic Psychiatry, BasicBooks a division of HarperCollins, p.69
those pesky animal spirits ahaha.
Posted by wearytraveler on February 3, 2013, at 1:13:05
In reply to please join me, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2013, at 3:58:09
You think you feel disappointed that you weren't a more effective teacher of civility, huh?
Why do you think you wanted to be a teacher of civility?
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 3, 2013, at 1:13:06
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
> Let's try something more actively supportive. People tend to feel supported when others join them.
Thanks for your responses. I feel supported and grateful. I hope you don't mind if I use them now to demonstrate how this approach differs from some other ways of supporting people. Let's start with my I-statement:
> I feel disappointed that I wasn't a more effective teacher of civility.
If you were following this approach, step 1 would be to express what you thought I was saying. Let's see if anybody happened to do that:
> One might be the best teacher ever and be quite effective. Others may still choose not to follow your teachings. I know I do at times. Please don't assume that you have that much control. It could drive you bonkers.
> I hope my correspondences with you have indicated otherwise.
>
> Believe it or not, you accomplished your goal.gardenergirl and SLS, bless them, tried to make me feel better. That can be a great way to support people, but isn't a fundamental part of this approach.
> You think you feel disappointed that you weren't a more effective teacher of civility, huh?
>
> Why do you think you wanted to be a teacher of civility?wearytraveler did express what they thought I was saying, but I didn't really feel heard. So step 2 could be me posting:
> > No, that's not really it. I'm sure I feel disappointed.
They also asked a question to try to learn more, which can help in supporting people, but again isn't a fundamental part of this approach.
> Dr. Bob, I feel that you are feeling partly responsible for the temporary break-down in civility that recently occurred.
>
> I don't feel that you or anyone else could have "taught" a community to displace emotions and think logically when such emotional (and personal) news is suddenly released. You stepped in and have initiated a new tool set to help buffer misunderstandings that are easy to react to and hard to convey when only written words are used.Now I did feel heard by corkskru. They got how I was feeling. Instead of going on to try to make me feel better, however, step 2 could be me posting:
> > Yes, that's it. I feel heard by you.
Step 3 would be to build on what I said, about feeling disappointed and responsible, with something from your experience (an I-statement).
Is this making sense? Any questions? Would anybody like to try step 3?
Bob
Posted by wearytraveler on February 3, 2013, at 1:13:06
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
>
> > > Yes, that's it. I feel heard by you.
>
> Step 3 would be to build on what I said, about feeling disappointed and responsible, with something from your experience (an I-statement).
>
> Is this making sense? Any questions? Would anybody like to try step 3?
>in response to your first question, to me, no, parts of your response don't make sense. When presented with a direct transcription of your own statement, you said you still don't "feel" heard.
Do you think what you first wrote (you feel disappointed that you weren't a better teacher of civility) accurately reflected your feeling?
Does you think your expression was in any way diminished when it was reflected back to you as the product of your thoughts? Was it a thoughtful statement?
Probably most important to me, for my own safety -- which sometimes is important to me -- I need to now how you might deal with your disappointment in the future when you feel you are failing as a teacher. Will you feel disappointed if you begin to feel you're not a very effective teacher of this approach?
At times, during your efforts to teach civility, you appeared to deal with your feelings that you now reveal as dissappointment by trying even harder, sometimes alienating people who you found yourself unable to teach. Will you alienate from this community people who don't practice this "approach" to your satisfaction?
I sometimes feel disappointed with my humanity when others are reticent about their thoughts then use positions of power to imply I should cater to their feelings.
Posted by wearytraveler on February 3, 2013, at 1:13:07
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
> I sometimes feel disappointed with my humanity when others are reticent about their thoughts then use positions of power to imply I should cater to their feelings.To clarify, at the moment I think that's what I sometimes feel. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I feel disappointed because when I was a child, I had a fever. Or maybe it's some genetic trait. Or because people are inclined to feel disappointed then look for plausible meanings to attribute to their disappointment.
Posted by corkskru on February 3, 2013, at 1:13:08
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
"I feel disappointed that I wasn't a more effective teacher of civility."
I am glad that you think I heard you in my response Dr. Bob. Now, I feel that at times I too have fallen short of my attempt to teach/ enlighten/ impress upon a lesson civility that I thought would help a person or group. I have found that like a "time-out" to allow reflection on what one did and what one should have done or should do in the future, it is so individualized that it would be impossible to accomplish unless done on a one to one basis.
Seeing that I am only able to do but so much, I feel that your statement of being disappointed that you were not able to teach civility might be an overreaction as teaching is a continuous progression and as other posters have stated, it is the student that has to absorb the lesson and be willing to do so. You can take the horse to water but you can't make it drink as the old cliche goes.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 3, 2013, at 1:13:08
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
> I am glad that you think I heard you in my response Dr. Bob. Now, I feel that at times I too have fallen short of my attempt to teach/ enlighten/ impress upon a lesson civility that I thought would help a person or group. I have found that like a "time-out" to allow reflection on what one did and what one should have done or should do in the future, it is so individualized that it would be impossible to accomplish unless done on a one to one basis.
Excellent! I feel you heard me, and know what it's like yourself, so I feel joined by you. That's a key part of this approach. We've formed a subgroup. We're not alone.
Does anybody else feel they've fallen short? If so, please join corkskru (and our subgroup).
Bob
Posted by corkskru on February 3, 2013, at 1:13:09
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
Does anybody else feel they've fallen short?
Talking over this feeling of falling short with the 3 new members (me, myself and I)as didn't want to bother Dr. Bob until our group has grown a bit... Anyway, falling short could have made me feel bad about my ability to teach what I thought was a valuable lesson, but realizing that civility is much like empathy or creativity in that it is much easier to teach a skill than to teach a talent or trait. I may do all the right things to the fruit trees but that is not a guarantee that the fruit will grow or be abundant. So, to carry the weight of a less than successful outcome as a personal failure, it must be viewed in the context of how much I really can control and feel good that I have done all that I am capable of doing and strive to improve on the next attempt.
Posted by CamW on February 10, 2013, at 1:17:36
In reply to please join me, posted by Dr. Bob on February 3, 2013, at 1:13:00
Hi Dr. Bob.
I am sorry to see that some things never change.
As for myself, I'd like to apologize for the way that I left so many years ago. I was not in a good space at the time, but that was no excuse for my rudeness. I hope that you will accept my apologies.
Sincerely, Cam
Posted by SLS on February 10, 2013, at 6:09:13
In reply to Re: please join me » Dr. Bob, posted by CamW on February 10, 2013, at 1:17:36
> Hi Dr. Bob.
>
> I am sorry to see that some things never change.
>
> As for myself, I'd like to apologize for the way that I left so many years ago. I was not in a good space at the time, but that was no excuse for my rudeness. I hope that you will accept my apologies.
>
> Sincerely, Cam
I wasn't very gracious, either. I was very angry.Sorry, Dr. Bob.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2013, at 20:57:35
In reply to Re: please join me, posted by SLS on February 10, 2013, at 6:09:13
> > Hi Dr. Bob.
> >
> > I am sorry to see that some things never change.
> >
> > As for myself, I'd like to apologize for the way that I left so many years ago. I was not in a good space at the time, but that was no excuse for my rudeness. I hope that you will accept my apologies.
> >
> > Sincerely, Cam
>
> I wasn't very gracious, either. I was very angry.
>
> Sorry, Dr. Bob.
>
> - ScottThanks, Cam, I'm glad you're back, and Scott, I'm glad you're still here.
And though you both addressed me, you may have joined corkskru (and our subgroup), since you posted about feeling you'd fallen short. corkskru, do you feel joined? If so, we can continue.
Bob
PS: This method is based on functional subgrouping, developed by Yvonne Agazarian to work with differences and conflicts in groups. See, for example, "Systems-Centered Therapy for Groups". It's used in groups besides therapy groups; trying it out here doesn't make this a therapy group.
Posted by Dinah on February 13, 2013, at 10:18:25
In reply to Re: anybody else?, posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2013, at 20:57:35
Is it rude for me to say that I don't quite understand everything you're saying, but it tends to make me want to giggle? It reminds me a bit of those politically correct dating guidelines that the colleges were handing out a few years ago.
"I'm going to kiss you. Are you ok with that?"
"Yes, I amend our dating agreement to allow kissing, so long as it is accompanied by formal nonverbal notice and right of refusal."
It doesn't have the tone of actual communications.
Can you think of a way to make it more natural than group-like? So as to fit actual conversations on babble? I'd like to cooperate with you, but at this point I don't really feel comfortable doing so.
Posted by Dinah on February 13, 2013, at 10:33:26
In reply to Re: anybody else? » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2013, at 10:18:25
Mind you, I'm describing my response and my associations based on my life experiences. Not saying that the ideas are inherently worthy of giggles.
They just seem too formal for me to feel comfort with them.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 13, 2013, at 23:45:15
In reply to Re: anybody else? » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2013, at 10:18:25
> It reminds me a bit of those politically correct dating guidelines that the colleges were handing out a few years ago.
>
> "I'm going to kiss you. Are you ok with that?"
>
> "Yes, I amend our dating agreement to allow kissing, so long as it is accompanied by formal nonverbal notice and right of refusal."
>
> It doesn't have the tone of actual communications.
>
> Can you think of a way to make it more natural than group-like?Yes: practice.
This feels unnatural to me, too. Even after trying it a number of times already. So I've asked a colleague to coach me.
This feeling could connect with the previous feeling expressed here, of falling short. This feels unnatural, so I could easily feel I'm falling short.
OTOH, something new always feels unnatural. Learning a foreign language, communicating online, being civil -- all might feel unnatural at first, but more natural with practice. It's unrealistic to expect something new to feel natural.
Dinah, do you feel joined by me?
Does anybody else feel this is unnatural?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 12:32:24
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural, posted by Dr. Bob on February 13, 2013, at 23:45:15
> > Can you think of a way to make it more natural than group-like?
>
> Yes: practice.
>
> This feels unnatural to me, too. Even after trying it a number of times already. So I've asked a colleague to coach me.In what settings do you plan to use this? When do you think it would be appropriate on Babble? I can see it as a therapy technique, though I'd probably bite my therapist's head off if he tried to demonstrate "skills" with me. (Good thing I chose a therapist with enough experience to make his skillset largely transparent.) So please be understanding when some patients find "technique" maddening in a therapeutic setting.
> OTOH, something new always feels unnatural. Learning a foreign language, communicating online, being civil -- all might feel unnatural at first, but more natural with practice. It's unrealistic to expect something new to feel natural.
My kindergarten teacher wrote that Dinah only enjoys doing things she's good at doing. That never really changed. I gave up on my effort to learn Welsh. Being civil, according to the civility guidelines of this site, came naturally to me. Most of the rules made perfect sense to me - possibly through being raised by my kindergarten teacher mother. The rest seemed like a reasonable request by you that we follow the rules of your site, as host to guest.
> Dinah, do you feel joined by me?
Ok, you lost me there. Could you perhaps rephrase? That not only felt uncomfortable but made me blush and feel *uncomfortable*. No offense Dr. Bob. How about "Do you feel understood by me" or "Do you feel like we're communicating as a team" or something. And until that phrase came up, I did. After, I wanted to tell you to please stay in your chair.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 12:35:51
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 12:32:24
I will say that if my therapist were to openly acknowledge his use of technique, and perhaps his discomfort with it - as you did here - I would feel far less maddened by it. It *would* feel not only more cooperative, but also less artificial. Because there would be a real human communication on a different level than the technique.
Posted by 10derheart on February 14, 2013, at 20:43:09
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 12:32:24
[trial run to see if any part of PB is safe for me]
>Dinah, do you feel joined by me?
Yes, when I read this I immediately burst out laughing, followed instantly by me shaking my head as I imagined how you (Dinah) would 'hear' that, which made me say, Eewwwwww...." out loud.
For me, it's a combination of sounding like a physical thing which is unwanted/inappropriate, combined with the sense of being asked by the Borg if you realize you're part of their collective after they assimilated you.
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 21:06:51
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on February 14, 2013, at 20:43:09
My sister!
That was *precisely* the overtones it had for me! Some combination of cult groupspeak and TV double entendre. Waiting for Michael Scott to say "That's what she said".
(I'm glad you find parts of Babble safe.)
Posted by 10derheart on February 15, 2013, at 3:30:39
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 21:06:51
>>My sister!
I wish. {{{Dinah}}}
Posted by SLS on February 15, 2013, at 12:33:24
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on February 14, 2013, at 20:43:09
> [trial run to see if any part of PB is safe for me]
I hope you find safety here.
I look forward to seeing your name appear more often. I find great value in the things you write. Your posts are thoughtful and caring.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 15, 2013, at 14:37:18
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 21:06:51
> In what settings do you plan to use this? When do you think it would be appropriate on Babble?
I'm thinking maybe it might be appropriate when posters don't want to feel alone, or don't want other posters to feel alone. Since if someone feels "joined", they won't feel alone.
> My kindergarten teacher wrote that Dinah only enjoys doing things she's good at doing. That never really changed. I gave up on my effort to learn Welsh. Being civil, according to the civility guidelines of this site, came naturally to me. Most of the rules made perfect sense to me
It's natural to enjoy doing things we're good at. Maybe some posters give up on being civil like you gave up on learning Welsh.
> > Dinah, do you feel joined by me?
>
> Ok, you lost me there. Could you perhaps rephrase? That not only felt uncomfortable but made me blush and feel *uncomfortable*. No offense Dr. Bob. How about "Do you feel understood by me" or "Do you feel like we're communicating as a team" or something. And until that phrase came up, I did. After, I wanted to tell you to please stay in your chair.I see it as more than you feeling I understand. It's also that you feel I share the feeling you expressed. That we share that feeling. That we both belong to the subgroup that has that feeling. That you're not alone in having that feeling.
I'm open to different ways to phrase that. How about: "Do you feel we're on the same page?"
> I will say that if my therapist were to openly acknowledge his use of technique, and perhaps his discomfort with it - as you did here - I would feel far less maddened by it. It *would* feel not only more cooperative, but also less artificial. Because there would be a real human communication on a different level than the technique.
>
> DinahExactly. I feel we're on the same page. That we share the feeling that this technique has potential. But that's a different page/subgroup than the feeling-this-is-unnatural page/subgroup.
--
> > Dinah, do you feel joined by me?
>
> Yes, when I read this I immediately burst out laughing, followed instantly by me shaking my head as I imagined how you (Dinah) would 'hear' that, which made me say, Eewwwwww...." out loud.
>
> For me, it's a combination of sounding like a physical thing which is unwanted/inappropriate, combined with the sense of being asked by the Borg if you realize you're part of their collective after they assimilated you.
>
> 10derheart> My sister!
>
> That was *precisely* the overtones it had for me! Some combination of cult groupspeak and TV double entendre. Waiting for Michael Scott to say "That's what she said".
>
> DinahThat's a great example of joining/feeling on the same page. Dinah didn't just feel 10der understood/communicated, she felt 10der had the same feeling she did.
The Borg is involved now to explain and demonstrate this technique. Would it feel more comfortable if the Borg stepped back?
> [trial run to see if any part of PB is safe for me]
>
> 10derheartWhat feeling do you think she's expressing? Do you share that feeling? Can you communicate that to her?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on February 16, 2013, at 0:33:03
In reply to Re: trial run, posted by Dr. Bob on February 15, 2013, at 14:37:18
I think I'm back to being confused.
> I'm thinking maybe it might be appropriate when posters don't want to feel alone, or don't want other posters to feel alone. Since if someone feels "joined", they won't feel alone.
Well, that's likely true. But don't we already do that? If you introduce this technique to use in times of trouble, that's one thing. Although frankly I'm not sure how efficacious it would be then. In fact, I can think of a good number of times when it has been attempted and failed. Both sides need to be involved and interested in trying to find common ground.
But I'm surprised you think this is something we need to learn. Isn't that a good part of what Babble already is? A place to discover that our feelings, reactions, responses to medication, etc. are shared by others? That we're not alone? Babble has always done that, and without a lot of groupspeak or formal effort. It is the bedrock foundation of what Babble already is.
Which does not mean that all babblers find themselves on the same page with all other babblers. Or that they should. Having different experiences, and respecting those different beliefs and experiences leads to feeling part (and being part) of a community as much as feeling on the same page with others.
Frankly Dr. Bob, I often am not on the same page with you. But I can try to understand why you're on the page you're on, what page you want to be on, etc. I can respect your experiences without necessarily sharing them. I can even try to help you find what you need from Babble, even if it isn't what I need from Babble.
Isn't that also a way for people to feel together?
> I see it as more than you feeling I understand. It's also that you feel I share the feeling you expressed. That we share that feeling. That we both belong to the subgroup that has that feeling. That you're not alone in having that feeling.
>
> I'm open to different ways to phrase that. How about: "Do you feel we're on the same page?"Much better.
> Exactly. I feel we're on the same page. That we share the feeling that this technique has potential. But that's a different page/subgroup than the feeling-this-is-unnatural page/subgroup.
Well, we might or might not. My feelings don't fit so neatly into a subgroup. And I don't really feel understood or on the same page when people come to conclusions about how I feel or think.
> That's a great example of joining/feeling on the same page. Dinah didn't just feel 10der understood/communicated, she felt 10der had the same feeling she did.
But 10der and Dinah *did* have the same feeling. And Dinah expressed her delight in it, just as 10der has expressed the same delight in similar situations.
But Dr. Bob, it was a delight. Those moments of attunement are so rare and so unexpected that delight is the natural consequence.
Trying to program ourselves to come to that moment more often won't make the moments come more often. And it may rob the moments of the delight they naturally contain.
> The Borg is involved now to explain and demonstrate this technique. Would it feel more comfortable if the Borg stepped back?
So that we could continue with the technique ourselves? No, I can't say that would feel more comfortable for me. I joined this discussion mainly because I was feeling particularly in charity with you for your remark about cyber relationships. While I didn't particularly understand what you were doing here, I wanted to give you the gift, so to speak, of engaging on a topic that appeared to bring you enjoyment.
Without that enjoyment on your part (and feelings of being in charity with you on my part), I don't think I'd feel more comfortable in continuing. I think I'd feel darn awkward.
> > [trial run to see if any part of PB is safe for me]
> >
> > 10derheart
>
> What feeling do you think she's expressing? Do you share that feeling? Can you communicate that to her?
>
> BobI think 10der and I may possibly again be on the same wavelength. I don't call someone my sister on a single isolated point of being on the same page, no matter how delightful the experience might be. I suspect that since 10der expressed the feeling that an unmoderated Babble felt unsafe to her, as it feels unsafe to me, she was trying to see if she could find a meeting place between learning to use Babble in a way that feels safer, and Babble perhaps being moderated in a way that feels safer.
Not that I want to speak for 10der. We may not be on the same wavelength at all on this.
Posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2013, at 9:55:27
In reply to Re: anybody else?, posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2013, at 20:57:35
I just found this and wondered why it's on social and not on administration or even psychology. Why social? The topic seems to have evolved into babble becoming a theraphy based board. Why? Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on February 16, 2013, at 11:33:36
In reply to Re: anybody else? » Dr. Bob, posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2013, at 9:55:27
Not Psychology!!!!
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
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