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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by capricorn on December 2, 2006, at 1:11:10
Where do faulty perceptions end and delusions begin?
For example:I will often think that fellow posters hate me based on non replies to my posts or comments made.Invariably they tell me they don't but it's hard for me to accept that.Is that perceptual or delusional?
Also what is the consensus on what makes a thought 'psychotic'?
The nature of the thought itself regardless of whether you can see it to be not grounded in reality?For example: Every once in an infrequent while(like now) it crosses my mind that some of the inanimate objects in my flat could come to life and talk to me ie ornaments/stuffed toys.Then i start expecting them to do so.
Although i know that the thought isn't rational/sensible it is difficult to shake off though it does go away after a couple of hours or so.
Posted by Phillipa on December 2, 2006, at 14:54:13
In reply to Where do faulty perceptions end/delusions begin?, posted by capricorn on December 2, 2006, at 1:11:10
Well at least I'm answering your thread Capricorn. Love Phillipa
Posted by capricorn on December 2, 2006, at 18:57:37
In reply to Re: Where do faulty perceptions end/delusions begin? » capricorn, posted by Phillipa on December 2, 2006, at 14:54:13
Thanks Philippa.
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 2, 2006, at 21:59:09
In reply to Where do faulty perceptions end/delusions begin?, posted by capricorn on December 2, 2006, at 1:11:10
> Where do faulty perceptions end and delusions begin?
You know what Capricorn? Most of our Perceptions are "faulty" in a sense that they are not direct one-to-one mappings of the physical world that impinges on our sensory apparatus.
For example: Depth perception. Our retinas are two-dimensional, yet we "automatically" perceive a 3-d world. This is because our minds have clever filters that kind of process information even before we become consciously aware of it. For example, our minds make use of the fact that we have two retinas, separated by a couple of inches, which see ever-so-slightly different images. Our minds use this information to compute the distance of near objects. My cup of tea is 10 feet in front of my coffee table, which is 5 feet away from my window. We also use information about shadows, textures, movement, etc (almost ten different sources of info!) to give us our 3-dimensional visual perception.
There's even more complexity when we get into later visual processes, like perception of colors, movement, object recognition, scene recognition, reading, etc.
All of these complicated processes happen instantaneously, and for the most part without our conscious awareness! They are so reliable that we take our perceptions for granted as accurate representations of the physical world. It's amazing!
Is it any wonder, though, that these complicated processes can be interrupted by intoxication, drugs, illness, mental states, distraction, etc? I think "faulty perceptions" are probably very common, it's just that most people's brains, most of the time, do a really good job out of making sense of the world. given a series of really quick glances around a room, we can form a pretty decent representation about what's there, and whether the furniture is likely to be floating in midair, whether there is an elephant present, etc...
Maybe what you are experiencing is not so much an issue of low-level perception (like the stuff I just reviewed above) but more of higher-level cognition. I'm just speculating here. I hope you aren't offended by my suggestions. Perhaps your expectations of the world are a little off-kilter, and your imagination is telling you to expect your stuffed animal to become animate, even as your common sense is trying to tell your imagination "quiet!!". This leads to a lot of distraction, as the common sense and the imagination kind of argue it out. Takes a couple hours, maybe.
In the meanwhile, your visual system is doing its best to process the scene in front of it, but everytime it scans a stuffed animal, there's a little "glitch", a pause/freeze as it waits from further instructions from the higher-level cognitive centers of your brain... as it's paused, waiting... you become aware of this little glitch and you get an 'error message'.
Does that make any sense to you?
> For example:I will often think that fellow posters hate me based on non replies to my posts or comments made.Invariably they tell me they don't but it's hard for me to accept that.Is that perceptual or delusional?
Depends on how you define perception and delusion. Would you mind clarifying?
>
> Also what is the consensus on what makes a thought 'psychotic'?
> The nature of the thought itself regardless of whether you can see it to be not grounded in reality?Common patterns of thoughts in classic psychoses include delusions of grandeur, thought broadcasting, etc. (these things are surely written somewhere online)
> For example: Every once in an infrequent while(like now) it crosses my mind that some of the inanimate objects in my flat could come to life and talk to me ie ornaments/stuffed toys.Then i start expecting them to do so.
>
>
>
> Although i know that the thought isn't rational/sensible it is difficult to shake off though it does go away after a couple of hours or so.
>I don't think that's classic psychosis. Maybe this is an example of a sensory disturbance. I don't even think it would be classified as a visual hallucination. The other reason I don't think it's psychosis is because you are AWARE that what you are thinking/experiencing is not rational, sensible, etc. You do not act as if you expect your teddy bear to jump off the bed and run to you and snuggle you (that's a happy thought, though :o).
How are you feeling otherwise? depressed? anxious? do you have other cognitive symptoms, like attention problems, memory problems, concentration problems?
anyways, I hope you feel better soon, and I'm happy to respond to your post (sorry my response is so long and technical)
-ll
Posted by Gee on December 3, 2006, at 9:26:19
In reply to Where do faulty perceptions end/delusions begin?, posted by capricorn on December 2, 2006, at 1:11:10
So I have no ideas. It's a loaded question, and it's still so early in the morning. But yeah, where does it start and end? It's a very good question.
Posted by capricorn on December 3, 2006, at 9:44:54
In reply to Re: Where do faulty perceptions end/delusions begi » capricorn, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 2, 2006, at 21:59:09
> How are you feeling otherwise? depressed? anxious? do you have other cognitive symptoms,This which i posted elsewhere might explain re cognitive problems.
'It can often be difficult for people to grasp that i have cognitive problems.Unfortunately they latch onto the fact
that i am verbally articulate and are often sceptical and dismissive when i say that i have problems with thinking.
The worst aspect of this is when it is assumed that you are
being contrary or deliberately obtuse.My parents were very blase about how i did in school.Up to the age of 9.5 i did very well but got little in the way of praise but after that it was a slow downward curve.
Although i have got good verbal skills i've got much lower visuopatial skills and following on from that organisational skills .As the work got more advanced and visuospatial/organisational/critical thinking skills were needed my deficits in these
areas came into play and it was more difficult to academically bluff my way with good verbal skills.Even now i have problems with things that require step by step
thinking/organising/planning.
Unfortunately these kind of things were not picked up in the early 60's
to mid 70's as they would be now ,neither were the social interaction problems t h
at went with it.
It was both demoralising and depressing to watch pupils you had once outperformed academically sailing past you.One of the most frustrating effects
is the confusion i can experience when confronted by a long
and involved post and the difficulty in co ordinating a response.
I think that not enough attention is paid to cognitive problems especially with those who on cursory contact
seem to be the kind of person you would not suspect of
having such problems.Hopefully things are slowly beginning to change with regards
to the negative impact even seemingly minor cognitive problems can have on the individual.
l look forward to the day when there are effective medications to counter such problems.'
One maybe ham fisted way i described myself once vis a vis verbal and performance was using the baseball analogy of on the training ground i can bat .305 but when it comes to the actual ball game i'm batting .235 .
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 3, 2006, at 10:38:22
In reply to Re: Where do faulty perceptions end/delusions begi, posted by capricorn on December 3, 2006, at 9:44:54
hi Capricorn,
Here's a simplified version of my long post above.1) Perception is a product of the mind, and it is a complicated mental process.
2) Because perception is so complicated, it is vulnerable to interference from many sources.
3) you may be experiencing a strange feeling about your stuffed animals because there is a bit of distraction going on in your mind.
4) the distraction is interfering with your attention and visual perception (of the stuffed animal example)
5) Doesn't sound like a classic visual hallucination or psychosis to me (ask a professional when in doubt)
*********
About the social issues of feeling ignored and such when folks don't respond to your posts. I'm sorry you feel that way.I don't ignore babblers on purpose, and I'm terribly sorry if it ever seems that way. You write really interesting questions, and connect us to a lot of different sources of information. I think it's wonderful to have you around. You engage with a lot of this material on a very intellectual level.
Have you worked with educational psychologists or occupational therapists on your visuospatial deficits and planning skills? These people often have a lot of very good, practical advice for making your life easier.
The reason why I asked you about your other cognitive skills is because I find that my cognition greatly suffers when I am depressed.
I'm going to try to list some of MY deficits that I had when I was depressed.
1) inability to hold things in mind (words, phone numbers, directions).
2) slower recall of specific information. Once I forgot my social security number! Trouble finding words. Trouble holding the info in my working memory, even after I DID find it.
3) difficulty maintaining representation in my head, that I could manipulate. One example would be if I were trying to figure out how many books would fit in the bookshelf. I would have to understand the geometry of the bookshelf and figure out how my books would fit in there. Difficult.
4) disruptions in attention. I lost the ability to understand my peripheral vision. I only SAW what was right in front of me. It was very difficult to cross the street. I could not keep in my mind "red truck on the left side, slow. white car on the right side, zooming fast" It was scary.
5) trouble understanding speech. I had a hard time following even simple conversation because I couldn't keep track of what was being said and who was saying it. At some points I had to actually ask to see the cash register, because I couldn't understand the price that the cashier was asking me for.
6) trouble reading. just like speech, I could only focus on one word at a time. complex grammar was impossible.
7) trouble organizing. I had problems picturing the task as a whole and chopping it into manageable chunks. I needed to have a list of very specific things to do, and zero distraction.
etc.
In contrast, I have kind of the opposite symptoms when I'm in some kind of hyper-vigilant anxious state.
1) enhanced sensitivity to the periphery- I am VERY aware of movement in the periphery. I often hallucinate the presence of bugs and other creepy crawlies. I hate the creepy crawlies.
2) attention is too wide- I am distracted by all the conversations around me (on the bus, in the cafe, inthe office) and I know what each conversation is about. But, I cannot keep my mind on my own task.
3) memory is enhanced. Too enhanced. I have no control over what I chose to remember. Things in my immediate environment will trigger an intensely real and emotional flashback of something in my past. vivid colors, sensations, and a feeling that I am IN that scene. Memory for the exact words used.
***************
Capricorn, I'm so sorry that you have dealt with having a unique cognitive style all your life. I can only imagine how hard it must have been to be the object of your parents' and teachers' frustration.
Often, having a unique learning style or cognitive style has some benefits too. I have noticed that you are very talented at finding unique sources of information and posting it here. You must be a prolific reader.
I bet you have developed a lot of very creative strategies to deal with real-life stuff. Don't take that for granted! Also, you seem to be very aware of your own cognition, which is also really impressive.
I also look forward to the day when kids will be given the academic and medical support necessary to make the most out of what they bring to the game.
You are clearly very intelligent. Do you have any current disorders like depression, etc? You sound pretty down on yourself. :(
Maybe talking to a therapist will help you understand that you are a very special person and that you are not just a bundle of deficits and missed opportunities. Having a little more self-confidence might also improve how you interact with others. It might also help you take chances that will lead to personal growth.best to you,
-ll
Posted by capricorn on December 3, 2006, at 11:12:04
In reply to Re: Where do faulty perceptions end/delusions begi, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 3, 2006, at 10:38:22
>
> You are clearly very intelligent. Do you have any current disorders like depression, etc? You sound pretty down on yourself. :(
>
>I'm currently losely and non specifically described as being 'personality disordered' previous to that bipolar/schizoaffective previous to that original dx schizophrenia.
Basically i'm one of those who lends credence to a more dimensional less categorical approach to diagnosis.
Keep wondering whether i should pin my pdoc down on what PD or PDS though an educated guess tells me there's various levels of avoidant/borderline/paranoid/schizotypal involved.Care plan says 'long term problems with thinking and behaviour presenting with anxiety/depression/paranoid thinking/mood swings and isolation'. 'Lacks confidence and self esteem'. 'Has difficulties with perception and planning'. 'Has dificulties expressing himself clearly at times and social interaction is difficult'.
Getting too emotionally worked up tends to plunge me into an irrational/paranoid/ranting and raving state and unable to think very well.
I think the more scientifically minded would call it 'acutely decompensating under stress'.
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 3, 2006, at 11:32:47
In reply to Re: Where do faulty perceptions end/delusions begi, posted by capricorn on December 3, 2006, at 11:12:04
Hi capricorn,
thanks for telling me more about yourself. helps me understand you better. I think it's probably better to consider your symptoms, rather than try to figure out which diagnostic category fits you best.I think most people with mental illness or symptoms would say that stress affects them more when they are feeling poorly than when they are feeling well.
I hope you have a good team of caring pdoc and T. That makes a big difference in how you're feeling, and how resilient you are to stress.
Now I get back to your original question- where do faulty perceptions end/delusions begin?
For me the line is "conscious awareness". Once I am aware of my disordered thinking, it seems less like a delusion and more like a faulty perception.
best,
-ll
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