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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on May 16, 2005, at 23:17:13
In reply to Re: couple more: » alexandra_k, posted by alesta on May 16, 2005, at 23:13:02
> alex, i think larry has already put enough time into your post. ppl come here to relax, be social, have fun, and get support, not be grilled like that.
If Larry feels 'grilled' then I'm sure he will feel free to ignore me.
I thought that went without saying...
Some people actually find logic puzzles to be fun.
Enjoyable even.To each their own.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 16, 2005, at 23:20:18
In reply to Re: couple more: » alexandra_k, posted by alesta on May 16, 2005, at 23:13:02
> alex, i think larry has already put enough time into your post. ppl come here to relax, be social, have fun, and get support, not be grilled like that.
Actually...
In light of the first post in this thread
Ouch.
I don't see how your post can we seen as supportive...How about each of us just worry about ourself, eh?
Posted by alesta on May 16, 2005, at 23:27:57
In reply to Re: couple more: » alesta, posted by alexandra_k on May 16, 2005, at 23:17:13
this is a mental health board. i don't think everyone who feels 'grilled' will withstand the pressure to not feel they have to reply under those circumstances.
the whole tone of your thread was abrasive, alex. don't think no one is going to notice. this is a very intelligent (and modest) group that has better things to do than your semester long schoolwork. your post was taunting, pointblank.
uh, dude..and i don't think 'the peoples' are lost..try 'uninterested'.
amy
Posted by alesta on May 16, 2005, at 23:29:27
In reply to Re: couple more: » alexandra_k, posted by alesta on May 16, 2005, at 23:27:57
your post was taunting, pointblank.
when i said the above i was referring to your "logic, anyone?" post
amy
Posted by alesta on May 16, 2005, at 23:38:28
In reply to Re: couple more: » alesta, posted by alexandra_k on May 16, 2005, at 23:20:18
no, i choose to worry about others as well as myself.
amy
Posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 0:12:48
In reply to Re: couple more: » alexandra_k, posted by alesta on May 16, 2005, at 23:38:28
Posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 0:37:16
In reply to Re: please do not post to me (nm) » alesta, posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 0:12:48
... its not my 'semester long schoolwork'.
I wrote it.
It took me a while.
Because I wanted to try and see whether I could explain the concept of validity and invalidity to people with no formal training in logic.
Trying to explain things simply is an art...
It isn't one that I am very good at.
But I want to get better.I know a lot of people don't care.
That is fine.
I know a lot of people find it hard.
That is fine too.
Some people get it fairly easily first off...
Others have to work at a slower pace...
Still more have to work fairly hard to start with...
But everyone is capable of getting it in the end.Myself.
I had to work really really hard.
I thought that might be able to help me explain that to other people.
Just in case they are interested.If people aren't.
Then just ignore me.
If you don't feel able to do that...
Then take it over to admin
Like people do with Lou.
I am who I am.
Posted by All Done on May 17, 2005, at 0:54:31
In reply to Re: couple more: » Larry Hoover, posted by alexandra_k on May 16, 2005, at 22:48:40
Can I give it a try :)?
> (e) - VALID
> (P1) It is raining and it is wet
> _________________________________
> (C) It is raining
>
> (f) - INVALID
> (P1) Either it is raining or it is wet
> (P2) It is not raining
> _______________________________
> (C) It is not wet
>
> (g) - VALID
> (P1) Either it is raining or it is wet
> (P2) It is not wet
> ____________________________
> (C) It is raining
>
> (These are a little harder)
>
> (h) - VALID
> (P1) If it is snowing then I am cold
> (P2) I am not cold
> ____________________
> (C) It is not snowing
>
> (i) - INVALID
> (P1) If it is snowing then I am cold
> (P2) It is not snowing
> ___________________________
> (C) I am not cold
Posted by All Done on May 17, 2005, at 1:11:09
In reply to Re: in case anyone was wondering..., posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 0:37:16
I've read logic puzzle books just for fun. I wonder if Larry has, too.
Even if I can't figure them out all the time (or maybe even most), I love the process of thinking it through and trying to figure out the right answer. I can get lost in my thoughts that way. It's a nice escape.
And when I know there's a right answer and I've figured it out...woohoo! Yeah, I'm a geek.
:)
Posted by Damos on May 17, 2005, at 1:37:42
In reply to Re: in case anyone was wondering..., posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 0:37:16
Hey Alex,
I guess these were probably largely for my benefit and I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to post them. I'm just kinda sorry I haven't really had a chance to look at them before this. Even sorrier the thread kinda went south at the end.
Don't get enough brain exercise and look forward to working through your posts.
Thanks again, lots of love
Posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 2:26:10
In reply to Re: couple more: » alexandra_k, posted by All Done on May 17, 2005, at 0:54:31
> Can I give it a try :)?
Of course...
And it turns out...
that you are a natural
:-)
Bingo.
Well done.I was kind of hoping...
Kind of hoping...
That if people got into this then I could show people how to construct formal proofs of validity.Then you should indeed be able to work out those logic puzzles :-)
The funny thing about logic is that it is
so hard to explain.
If people don't get it you have the urge to point.
And then to point HARDER.
But that doesn't really help someone see it.But most people can do it without understanding the *why*'s.
The *why*'s just tend to be more helpful than pointing harder.
:-)
:-)
:-)
Thank you so much.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 2:40:19
In reply to Thanks Alex , guess these were for my benefit » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on May 17, 2005, at 1:37:42
(((Damos)))
Take all the time you need.
And I promise most sincerely not to be offended if you think:
Logic!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH.
And hate it.
Like most people.
:-)
Posted by alesta on May 17, 2005, at 13:57:55
In reply to Re: couple more: » alexandra_k, posted by alesta on May 16, 2005, at 23:13:02
Posted by Damos on May 17, 2005, at 16:57:05
In reply to Re: :-) You are wonderful Damos, posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 2:40:19
I'm gonna be so good and just say 'thank-you'.
Okay, can I now say my brain aches.
c) invalid
d) valid
e) valid
f) invalid
g) Buggered if I know, valid I think
h) Hmmmm, valid?
i) InvalidI agonised over g) & h) and am still not convinced either way, but have resisted the temptation to look at Lar & All Done's posts just in case. It's so odd seeing arguements presented like this. Even odder to use logic in this way.
Have to admit to being more than a little confused for a while (still debating the answers with myself as I post this), but enjoyed the exercises.
Thanks,
(((Alex)))
Posted by 10derHeart on May 17, 2005, at 21:56:17
In reply to that went well.:) (nm), posted by alesta on May 17, 2005, at 13:57:55
Alesta,
I'm so confused.
I've reread several times, trying to see how Alex was taunting anyone. I can't for the life of me see it. Her post seemed innocent and neutral to me.
Is it when she asked if people were lost? I took that on its face, purely as a straight question, not putting anyone down or anything. As she stated, this stuff isn't commonly done and IS confusing. I assumed she genuinely wanted to know, so she could rephrase, help them, etc.
Is this just a huge misunderstanding? Or I am incredibly dense and have missed something?
I am more than willing to try and see it from another POV, if you feel like maybe explaining another way why you felt taunted...?
To me, your words and tone seemed a bit harsh, even hostile, and not supportive. I was so surprised. That seems completely unlike you, from all your wonderfully supportive threads I've seen here lately. :-( ??
This thread really bothered you, clearly. But I don't know why. I hate it when I don't *get* why a poster becomes upset about a thread. I learn so much more about how to coexist here with everyone when I do understand.
And the way this thread "went south," as Damos put it so well, well, it makes me very sad.
Because lately a few subjects I find fascinating or fun have run through my head. And I've been thinking to myself, "Wonder if this question, or subject, would be cool/fun/neat (sorry, my vocab is probably dating me) to post on social?" But I've hesitated, worried I'll seem foolish, or boring, or weird, or irritating. Much like the anxiety and doubts that grip me IRL from time to time.
Now I'm a bit more worried that I was right.
Feel free to ignore if rehashing this will lead to any violations of the board civility guidelines. I understand sometimes it's just better not to talk about stuff.
I just got so lost reading the dialog between you two. And sad, don't forget sad.
Posted by alesta on May 17, 2005, at 22:07:29
In reply to Alesta » alesta, posted by 10derHeart on May 17, 2005, at 21:56:17
10erheart,
in all honesty, i only read the first line of your post and stopped there. i want to just forget about this thread right now. i'm sorry i can't respond. but i just can't handle it right now. i have my reasons for my interpretations. that's all i have the energy to put forth. one more disagreement may just push me over the edge. (note my thread about severe depression/suicidal thoughts.) i hope you understand.amy
Posted by 10derHeart on May 17, 2005, at 22:18:10
In reply to Re: Alesta » 10derHeart, posted by alesta on May 17, 2005, at 22:07:29
Posted by gardenergirl on May 17, 2005, at 22:19:56
In reply to Re: (((alexandra))), posted by All Done on May 17, 2005, at 1:11:09
alexandra and laurie,
> I've read logic puzzle books just for fun. I wonder if Larry has, too.Oh lordy, me too! And the logic part of the GRE was my best score. And my favorite. They were much more like games than test items. MUCH better than the vocab stuff!
>
> Even if I can't figure them out all the time (or maybe even most), I love the process of thinking it through and trying to figure out the right answer. I can get lost in my thoughts that way. It's a nice escape.
>
> And when I know there's a right answer and I've figured it out...woohoo! Yeah, I'm a geek.
>
> :)Geeks rock! :)
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 23:22:08
In reply to Re: couple more: » Larry Hoover, posted by alexandra_k on May 16, 2005, at 22:48:40
Your answers are correct :-)
Some of them were hard.
I get what you mean about your brain aching...
Mine ached an awful lot to start with.
There are 'handy tricks'(formal or mechanical proofs) to tell whether an argument is invalid or valid. But most people can tell without having to resort to proofs when the arguments are relatively simple (as you did):-)
> (g)
> (P1) Either it is raining or it is wet
> (P2) It is not wet
> ____________________________
> (C) It is rainingIs valid, like you said.
(P1) Tells us that it is either true that it is raining or it is true that it is wet.
(P2) Tells us that it isn't wet.
So... In order for (P1) to be true (which we are asked to assume) It just has to be raining.> (h)
> (P1) If it is snowing then I am cold
> (P2) I am not cold
> ____________________
> (C) It is not snowingThis was a harder one, but it is valid, like you said.
(P1) tells us that if it is true that it is snowing then it just has to be true that it is cold.
(P2) tells us that it isn't cold.
It cannot be true that it is snowing and not cold or this would contradict (P1) So it cannot be snowing.I'll do some more.
Maybe later today or tomorrow...
But once again... No obligation.
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 23:24:51
In reply to Re: (((alexandra))) » All Done, posted by gardenergirl on May 17, 2005, at 22:19:56
> And the logic part of the GRE was my best score. And my favorite. They were much more like games than test items. MUCH better than the vocab stuff!
And about a million times better than the math!
I liked doing GRE logic puzzles too.
They have changed it now. No more logic puzzles. Now they give you an argument and ask you to write a commentary on whether it is a good or bad argument.:-(
Not nearly as much fun (IMO):-)
Posted by gardenergirl on May 17, 2005, at 23:28:44
In reply to Re: (((gg))), posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 23:24:51
But...that section was not a valid indicator of abilities. There was a definite practice effect that would raise scores of repeaters.
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 23:50:35
In reply to That's horrible! » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on May 17, 2005, at 23:28:44
> But...that section was not a valid indicator of abilities. There was a definite practice effect that would raise scores of repeaters.
Of course.
Logic is mechanical.
Even a dumb *ss computer can do it.
In fact computers are better at it than people because people tend to want to think outside the box whereas the computer just keeps on cranking away applying the mechanical rules...But the whole GRE is like that.
There are vocab lists to memorise for the verbal section.
Analogies to practice.
There are tricks all the way along.
Thats why they can make a fair bit of money selling study guides and running courses on how to pass it etc etc.And it works.
And I was serious about the cultural bias.
And several questions seemed to be assessing ones attitudes toward american social policy etc etc.'The scales are to justice as the torch is to ___'
'President Bush's recent speech to the Iraq citizens...'
(a) condescending
(b) bold
(c) reassuring...get the general idea???
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 18, 2005, at 0:26:33
In reply to Re: couple more: » alexandra_k, posted by alesta on May 16, 2005, at 23:27:57
> the whole tone of your thread was abrasive... this is a very intelligent (and modest) group that has better things to do than your semester long schoolwork. your post was taunting, pointblank.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or jump to conclusions about them. The last time you were blocked it was for 1 week, so this time it's for 3.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Damos on May 18, 2005, at 2:06:36
In reply to Re:Damos, posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 23:22:08
Looks simple when you explain it, but all I was creating last night was a mental pretzel ;-)
Relatively simple arguements for a relatively simple person - it was a perfect match then.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 18, 2005, at 5:02:20
In reply to Another victory for luck over good management =0) » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on May 18, 2005, at 2:06:36
> Looks simple when you explain it, but all I was creating last night was a mental pretzel ;-)
Thats ok.
Mental pretzel...
I like that image :-)
Thats the way it was for me.
Until I learned the 'rules' which 'tell' you whether an argument is valid or invalid.
Everyone is capable of follwing the rules.
But being able to tell before you know the rules is much harder.
And you did settle on the correct answers - even though you weren't so sure about them...
Maybe you over-thought it by second guessing your answers and then started with the pretzel thing :-)> Relatively simple arguements for a relatively simple person - it was a perfect match then.
You aren't simple.
You aren't simple at all...
All I mean is that once you know the rules you can figure out whether arguments with 5 or 6 or 9 premises are valid or invalid. But there one needs to follow the rules to figure it out - because there is no way that we can just 'see' it by looking.:-)
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