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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 29 to 53 of 53. Go back in thread:
Posted by Broken on February 17, 2005, at 11:13:32
In reply to Re: Single income families...esp. women, pls reply » Broken, posted by 10derHeart on February 16, 2005, at 23:43:12
:)
I am glad it made your week. I am definitely the lucky one, I have no illusions about that whatsoever. I have beautiful children and a lovely wife. I know my post sounds somewhat utopian, and that isn't the reality. But after my first marriage, I have learned to really appreciate my life and the people that make it worth living.
Posted by AuntieMel on February 17, 2005, at 11:47:17
In reply to Single income families...esp. women, pls reply, posted by jay on February 16, 2005, at 16:33:01
I understand the message about equal responsibility. But equal responsibility can take on many faces.
I'm more interested in how that played a part in a relationship collapse. Granted it's a very serious issue that both need to agree on, but it seems that differences could be worked out if everything else was fine.
And maybe it's just my defensiveness, but when you said "I didn't want to take on the role of forever being the sole support." it sounded like you feel it would be too much pressure on you.
My take, for what it's worth.
Posted by Angielala on February 17, 2005, at 13:27:16
In reply to Single income families...esp. women, pls reply, posted by jay on February 16, 2005, at 16:33:01
I don't think that's a reason a relationship would fail. Money should have nothing to do with whether a relationship keeps on truckin' or dies off. Relationships shouldn't have pre-requistes like "You should work just like I do".
> You know, I've been thinking about this. I finally found out why my last relationship collapsed...and that was because I didn't want to be the single bread winner in a family. I didn't want to take on the role of forever being the sole support. I want a partner who is willing and able to work like I do. In 2005, is that asking for too much? If you want to have kids(and put them through college, etc.), a very nice home, a fairly comfortable lifestyle, I think it is only fair both parents work. (And both parents share household duties, etc.) I am not a greedy or money-hungry person, but that was the way I was raised, two working class parents, and we had it very good...never went without. I had an amazing childhood. What do you gals (and guys) think?
>
> Thanks,
> Jay
Posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 13:27:37
In reply to Re: Single income families...esp. women, pls reply » jay, posted by AuntieMel on February 17, 2005, at 11:47:17
When you find the right person, this is NOT going to be one of the make it or break it questions.
When you form a relationship, you form an agreement about expectations and managing expectations. It's not about money, it's about personal worth. Together you will come up with a solution that works for both of you.
And you may find that your position on things changes over time. You both must be willing to adapt and listen to reason. Sometimes you will be right, sometimes the other person will be right.
If you can't come up with a solution on ANY ONE THING that is important to you (core value- wise)then that merely means that you will NOT succeed as a couple together.You throw each other back in and reel in a new fish and try again...
That's what life and love is.....cooperation, compromise, comfort, and joy in each other's company.
Posted by jay on February 17, 2005, at 13:52:07
In reply to And that's all I have to say about that, posted by Angielala on February 17, 2005, at 13:27:16
Angiielala, I do agree with you. It's just that was from the other person's perspective, that they knew I was continuing my education, wanted to get established, and needed a partner who could help bring some income by working. But, instead, she wanted to quit her job, move in with me, and have me pay look after herself and her son (who is 10) because work was too 'stressful' for her. (She has a crappy job...I agreed with her and supported her in finding something she would be happy in.)
Anyhow...that is the lowdown on that.
Thanks,
Jay
Posted by jay on February 17, 2005, at 14:03:39
In reply to Single income families...esp. women, pls reply, posted by jay on February 16, 2005, at 16:33:01
And hold me to a death sentence (heh...yes I do have a sense of humour..), please read my above note to Angielala. It explains the context, and the conditions in which I am framing this question in. I am not against women who have stayed at home to raise kids...that's great if you could afford to, and if your hubby played no domestic role, even more kudos to you. I am not blaming you, so please stop attacking me and jumping all over me. Many factors come into play here, especially socio-economic factors, and coming from a working class background, this is important to remember. As Ron said, each situation is very different, and I should have mentioned that at the begining.
Thank you,
Jay
Posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 14:12:49
In reply to Before you jump to conclusions...PLS read...., posted by jay on February 17, 2005, at 14:03:39
I'm sure you must have been stinging a bit already, though- sorry...
I kinda figured you had a scenario in mind when you asked the question...
Guess you found a hot Babble button... don't let the fallout get to you!
Posted by Angielala on February 17, 2005, at 17:05:56
In reply to Re: And that's all I have to say about that » Angielala, posted by jay on February 17, 2005, at 13:52:07
Yikes- good thing you got away. I don't understand why anyone goes into a relationship with preconcieved ideas of what will happen.
Sorry to jump, Jay. Thanks for having a good sense of humor about it <blush>
> Angiielala, I do agree with you. It's just that was from the other person's perspective, that they knew I was continuing my education, wanted to get established, and needed a partner who could help bring some income by working. But, instead, she wanted to quit her job, move in with me, and have me pay look after herself and her son (who is 10) because work was too 'stressful' for her. (She has a crappy job...I agreed with her and supported her in finding something she would be happy in.)
>
> Anyhow...that is the lowdown on that.
>
> Thanks,
> Jay
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 17, 2005, at 17:21:44
In reply to Re: Single income families...esp. women, pls reply, posted by jay on February 17, 2005, at 7:37:48
OK.. another view..
Both my parents worked when I was a kid.. and I *hated* it..
From age 7 I walked myself to school.. within a week fo starting at a new school where I knew no one to walk with..
From 12 I got the bus to school (went up to High sschool) and let myself in when I got home. (That part I quite liked!)But school holidays I was farmed out to all and sundry.. a week here, and week there.. whether or not they lived anywhere near any of my friends.. whether or not I got in with the persons kids..
That I really really hated.. with a passion.. I had no siblings anywhere near my age (my sibling, two brothers, are 13 and 15 years older than me) and it was really lonely..
*shrugs*
Nikki
Posted by jay on February 17, 2005, at 19:48:24
In reply to Re: Single income families...esp. women, pls reply, posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 13:27:37
You forgot one thing...prenuptials. :-)
Jay
Posted by jay on February 17, 2005, at 19:53:29
In reply to Re: Single income families...esp. women, pls reply » jay, posted by AuntieMel on February 17, 2005, at 11:47:17
> I understand the message about equal responsibility. But equal responsibility can take on many faces.
>
> I'm more interested in how that played a part in a relationship collapse. Granted it's a very serious issue that both need to agree on, but it seems that differences could be worked out if everything else was fine.
>
> And maybe it's just my defensiveness, but when you said "I didn't want to take on the role of forever being the sole support." it sounded like you feel it would be too much pressure on you.
>
> My take, for what it's worth.Well..yeah..the sole support thing is an issue. I work in social services...I am not a banker or anything like that. I am highly prone to cutbacks and lower paying jobs. I consider it a 'tag-team' effort, in all ways, from raising kids to housework to income.
IMHO...
Jay
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2005, at 0:01:27
In reply to Re: Single income families...esp. women, pls reply, posted by NikkiT2 on February 17, 2005, at 17:21:44
Our family, and my family of origin, worked more of a compromise solution.
My mother worked as a teacher, so her hours were my hours, I could hang out in her classroom after school, and she was off summers and holidays when I was.
I work part time mainly from home. My son goes to school and summer camp (with school hours). He likes both, and enjoys the companionship. He rarely goes to aftercare. If I can't be available on holidays, his dad takes off. Sometimes he stays with grandparents, and they watched him a lot when he was younger than school aged. But he knew them really really well, and they came to his house, not vice versa.
I don't think I'd make a very good full time mom. Well, maybe now that he's in school. But it requires an intensity I'd find difficult. And he wouldn't do well in aftercare all the time. He enjoys it now and again, but he really needs the downtime after school. He gets worn out being "on" for all that time.
So this is a good solution for *our* family, though by no means would it work for all.
(BTW, my husband does way more housework than I do. He's got higher standards.)
Posted by AuntieMel on February 18, 2005, at 9:18:02
In reply to Re: Single income families...esp. women, pls reply, posted by NikkiT2 on February 17, 2005, at 17:21:44
My mom didn't work for a long time and I *still* got farmed out in the summer. Ick.
Posted by sunny10 on February 18, 2005, at 10:26:48
In reply to Re: being farmed out » NikkiT2, posted by AuntieMel on February 18, 2005, at 9:18:02
I come from a divorced family (never met my dad- he left when mom was pregnant with me- I have two older siblings from another father; that first husband beat my mother and brother- mom divorced him when she was pregnant with my sister). My own dad never married mom, but cancelled their engagement when he found out she was pregnant with me.
My mother had three kids to support on her own entirely. We were too much work for mom- she hated us, but put food on the table and a roof over our heads. Obviously there was daycare and summer camps- my mom lied when I was five and said I was six in order to send me to overnight camp with my siblings for three weeks. We went to overnight camps every year for three weeks out of each summer to give my mom a break and so she could take vacations at the beach without us for a couple of those weeks.
I myself am now divorced (hunh, go figure)... I bought the lie about being allowed to "stay home to raise the kids" in the huose with the white picket fence, a dog, a cat, and 2 children- which of course never happened.
My ex-husband went through MY savings, put 20,000 dollars on credit cards, bought everything for himself.
So, this issue of supporting a person? It doesn't go one way, and it certainly isn't simple. Each and every situation is different.
Posted by justyourlaugh on February 18, 2005, at 10:37:55
In reply to Re: being farmed out, posted by sunny10 on February 18, 2005, at 10:26:48
my SO does not support me...
we each are contibuting to the family..
if i was running a day care..it would be woking...if i do the same job for my own kids it is being supported by another?
my life is not a "lie"..
i need to go pick up lego now..
j
Posted by sunny10 on February 18, 2005, at 11:11:05
In reply to supporting a person? » sunny10, posted by justyourlaugh on February 18, 2005, at 10:37:55
sounds more like you are supporting each other, to me....
That is my personal goal for all current and future relationships of all types.
Anything less is not a true match, whether it be a sexual or non-sexual relationship, in my opinion...
Posted by rainbowbrite on February 22, 2005, at 7:32:54
In reply to Single income families...esp. women, pls reply, posted by jay on February 16, 2005, at 16:33:01
I think that sounds fair! BUT only if the other person significantly helps around the house and after teh kids get home from daycare. My first thought is when the parents get home from work the mothers takes on her other role....as parent and that can be quite draining. But if you can do it and pull it off that is great. For me, when I am married with kids, I will not be the sole caretaker. I will not stay home! And maybe by then men will even be able to have the babies LOL I understand where you are coming from completely.
Take care
rain
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2005, at 9:01:02
In reply to Re: Single income families...esp. women, pls reply » jay, posted by rainbowbrite on February 22, 2005, at 7:32:54
It's becoming increasingly common for the husband to be the primary caretaker while the Mom goes out and faces slays the dragons of the workplace.
And then there are those wonderfully self-sacrificing families where the parents work - but in different shifts. I imagine it can't be easy for the parents, but working together to accomplish something they both find worthwhile probably makes up a lot for their lack of time together.
If I'd have been better at work, or if my husband's office offered the same opportunities for flex time that mine does, I can see us in reversed roles - with mine as the primary income and his as the secondary. And someone nearly always home after school. Thank heavens it isn't, since I've turned into a screwup.
What makes today such a wonderful time is that the possibilities are endless. Thinking either/or isn't exploring the vastness the world has to offer.
Posted by TamaraJ on February 22, 2005, at 10:19:36
In reply to Course, it doesn't have to be the woman, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2005, at 9:01:02
> It's becoming increasingly common for the husband to be the primary caretaker while the Mom goes out and faces slays the dragons of the workplace.
-- Yes, the prejudices of past generations are truly becoming a thing of the past. Role reversal is no longer sneered at. Society has realized that men can change a diaper, cook a meal and deal with those nasty stains without sacrificing their masculinity, and women can negotiate a deal, enforce the law and even hold the most prestigious positions in the judicial system (Canada has it's first female Chief Justice of the Supreme Court!) and still be nurturing.
>
> And then there are those wonderfully self-sacrificing families where the parents work - but in different shifts. I imagine it can't be easy for the parents, but working together to accomplish something they both find worthwhile probably makes up a lot for their lack of time together.-- The family dynamic continues to evolve, and it continues to be a testament to just how resilient and creative human beings are.
> Thank heavens it isn't, since I've turned into a screwup.
-- Now stop right there woman! You have not turned into a screw up. You are still a talented woman with enormous strengths and abilities. You are going through a very tough time right now, but those qualities are still in you. A person does not just lose them, although they may take a temporary leave of absence, they will certainly be back. (If I have p*ssed you off, I apoligize, but I had to say it.)
> What makes today such a wonderful time is that the possibilities are endless. Thinking either/or isn't exploring the vastness the world has to offer.
-- Well said Dinah. Sometimes people become complacent and set in their ways and forget that anything is possible.
Take care Dinah, my thoughts are with you.
Tamara
Posted by pegasus on February 22, 2005, at 19:11:20
In reply to Single income families...esp. women, pls reply, posted by jay on February 16, 2005, at 16:33:01
I've always been the primary income earner in my marriage, although my husband has also always worked. He just doesn't make much money, and his field is less stable. Sometimes it feels like a lot of pressure, because my job is quite demanding. And my husband has a lot more flexibility, because we could survive on my income alone, but not on his alone. But I also like the feeling of being able to support him, so that he has flexibility and can make the best choices for our family.
Now that I'm pregnant, our plan is for both of us to work half time, and share the child care. So, I'll work mornings, and he'll work afternoons. It'll be a financial sacrifice for us, but probably not much more than what it would cost to have an infant in full time day care.
The beauty is that we'll be completely sharing everything (child care, work, housework), which I love as a concept. I think it's a great example for our child. But not too many people have the luxury or desire to choose this option. Would you choose this, Jay, if you could? Just curious.
I find that a lot of folks really aren't interested in sharing exactly the same roles like that. They'd much rather divvy things up into separate roles, so one person earns money, and the other takes care of the children and housework, or some other division. Keeping in mind that it's a lot harder to care for kids than it is to work most jobs, one could argue that the roles there aren't *equal* because the stay-at-home partner works a lot harder. But they're both contributing significantly to the family.
pegasus
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2005, at 23:39:16
In reply to flipping roles, sharing roles, and what's equal?, posted by pegasus on February 22, 2005, at 19:11:20
That sounds like an exciting way to share parenting.
In many ways my husband is almost more hands on than I am. :) He's way better at playing. Although I have happy memories of lawnmower races across the living room when my son was little. Oh, and we used to "read" his picture books and do the same things the people in the pictures were doing.
Oh you lucky soul you. To have those very young times to look forward to.
Of course each new age brings its own delights.
I think it's wonderful when two parents share in those delights.
Posted by pegasus on February 24, 2005, at 12:15:26
In reply to Re: flipping roles, sharing roles, and what's equal? » pegasus, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2005, at 23:39:16
Well, thanks so much, Dinah! It's nice to hear that our little plan sounds good to someone else. Most of the folks we mention it to aren't that interested in doing something like that for themselves. I sometimes worry that the reason we don't know anyone else who does this is because maybe it's impossible. But I think it sounds great.
And thanks also for being so positive about those early years. My colleagues at work keep warning me about how much work it is, and how overwhelming. Which I'm sure is also true. But I'm fully expecting it to be full of love and joy as well. So, I appreciate your confirmation of that.
pegasus
Posted by jay on February 26, 2005, at 15:56:54
In reply to Re: Course, it doesn't have to be the woman » Dinah, posted by TamaraJ on February 22, 2005, at 10:19:36
Dinah and Tamara wrote:
>> And then there are those wonderfully self-sacrificing families where the parents work - but in different shifts. I imagine it can't be easy for the parents, but working together to accomplish something they both find worthwhile probably makes up a lot for their lack of time together.
>-- The family dynamic continues to evolve, and it continues to be a testament to just how resilient and creative human beings are.
>
>This was really my only point I was trying to make, good ones at the way Dinah and Tamara put it into words. Why did everybody else take it so far out of context?
Jay
Posted by jay on February 26, 2005, at 16:05:15
In reply to flipping roles, sharing roles, and what's equal?, posted by pegasus on February 22, 2005, at 19:11:20
> The beauty is that we'll be completely sharing everything (child care, work, housework), which I love as a concept. I think it's a great example for our child. But not too many people have the luxury or desire to choose this option. Would you choose this, Jay, if you could? Just curious.
>> pegasus
This was my point! Oh man, I can't believe how out-of-context many people took my post! I wrote it in very clear plain english. Two people taking a 50/50 share for all household/childcare duities, etc. And also both people working...and yes the woman *can* be the primary bread-winner. In Europe, they have Paternal leave you know...men get their time off to care for the newborn while Mom goes off to work.
Jay
Posted by pegasus on March 1, 2005, at 10:42:47
In reply to Re: flipping roles, sharing roles, and what's equal? » pegasus, posted by jay on February 26, 2005, at 16:05:15
Hey, it's ok. I wasn't meaning to imply anything about what you would choose. I was just honestly curious. I actually thought that you were saying that such a complete 50% split was what you were after. And also I know that lots of folks who could do that choose not to for one reason or another. So, I was wondering.
pegasus
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