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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Medusa on February 7, 2004, at 7:49:50
Warning: big words used in attempt to follow my little brother's direction that "we know enough other words, we don't have to use dirty ones."
I often find myself at a loss re: appropriate table manners. Has anyone here taken a refresher or crash course? Sometimes I feel like a barbarian. The other day I was in a restaurant and realized that I'd cut a piece of lettuce, and I'm pretty sure the proper thing is just to fold it (okay to use the knife - right?). I have so many unanswered questions of my own, I'm surprised to find myself irked by someone else's table manners.
This week I have a houseguest, someone I've known for a while. I'd known that his manner of eating (raucous mastication, accelerated ingestion) fell outside of the standard range observed in most social settings, whether public or private. But I'd 1) never experienced this on my territory before, and 2) only seen him eat in very informal settings (barbecue etc).
Perhaps I should have become a quality-assurance professional for a pharmaceutical company. Do these following quirks of mine sound over the edge?
- Serving utensils are for serving ONLY - and they are the SOLE method of removing food from serving vessel. One's private flatware is employed for spreading, transporting food to mouth, and other necessary manipulations.
- Guests might consider waiting for hosts to complete meal preparations AND come to table AND start eating before guest commences consumption. Host(s) setting items on table does not indicate that said items are intended for immediate consumption. Consumption of the entire contents of a serving vessel +before+ hosts have completed preparations presents difficulties to hosts who might possibly be attempting to provide a rounded meal for multiple persons and who might potentially have harbored personal anticipation of enjoyment of all elements of said meal. In these cases, hosts generally lack the humor to appreciate comments from guest that hosts have provided too much food.
- If food is cleared at a point when guest's hunger has yet to be sated, it's preferable for guest to drop a hint requesting further comestibles rather than to devour his fingernails, gnaw at his cuticles and so on.
- A dish or plate with large amounts of freshly-arranged food on it, set in the middle of the table, is probably intended to be a communal serving dish, not the guest's personal pre-served annex plate. Part B: the cook might not appreciate "help" guest might provide by salting, mixing (etc) contents of a serving dish.
- Blowing one's nose on a cloth napkin is okay if it's your house, your napkin and you're alone.
- Helping oneself to items on or in someone else's personal consumption vessels is ideally confined to situations with which I'm not yet familiar.
- Guests might consider letting hosts set the tone for conversation, certainly at the beginning of a meal. When hosts have just managed to get meal on table, they might prefer a few moments to take a breath and begin eating leisurely. Willing immediate focus on guest's tourist itinerary is likely achieved by only the saintliest of hosts.
- If hosts fail to provide a receptacle for discards, inedible items (such as shells from hard-boiled eggs) can be left on one's plate. It's neither necessary to transfer them back to the serving dish, nor desirable to place them on the table, even if the tablecloth is pink and guest just knows that pink is not the host's favorite color so it must be trash.
- Spilling water on a tablecloth might indeed be a big deal - depending on the table underneath. So unless guest has seen for sure that the table top is laminate, guest would be advised not to declare "it's no big deal".
Okay, so I know that the rudest thing of all is to correct anyone's manners, to make a guest feel uncomfortable in any way. BUT it's my bloody house, and the first point completely grosses me out (AND contaminates food *I* paid for) so I laid down the law on that one. And I *KNOW* that etiquette declares that the host must say that spills are 'no big deal' and should refrain from peeling back tablecloth and removing water from fine hardwood, but I screwed up here, too, by suggesting that co-host care for his table, and I'm not one bit sorry about it.
And all that was just breakfast.
Well, maybe I'm just snarky today. But I'd love to hear what table manners are important to others, what your pet peeves are, and any resources that might help me to improve my own grasp of dining etiquette.
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 7, 2004, at 8:01:16
In reply to table manners ... obsession?, posted by Medusa on February 7, 2004, at 7:49:50
I have to admit to licking serving spoons.. WHEN I'M ALONE!!!!!!!!!!
All i can say is... EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
I don't think I could have sat through that meal..
ewwwie!!!
Nikki xx
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 7, 2004, at 10:40:24
In reply to table manners ... obsession?, posted by Medusa on February 7, 2004, at 7:49:50
That sounds gross, I can't eat if someone is being gross, it turns my stomach.
I am really obsessed with manners!! Really really obsessed. I actually thought the proper way to eat salad/lettuce was to cut it, not fold it.
One thing to add to your list, i don't think it was on it............chewing with your mouth open. I hate seeing mushed food in someone elses mouth. :D That includes gum!
But I know what you mean cause as much as I think I am Miss Manners, I am sure I am not. But I am very aware of the manners around me. :)
Posted by pegasus on February 7, 2004, at 15:15:41
In reply to table manners ... obsession?, posted by Medusa on February 7, 2004, at 7:49:50
Yick yick yick. Hey, wait . . . is my brother visiting you?
Being grossed out or irked by any of the things you list is not a symptom of obsession. I'd have been dying to get away from that meal if I was you, and I definitely don't obsess about table manners. But I'd have never left that guest alone in my house either, for fear he'd start blowing his nose on the curtains or spitting on the floor or something.
I'm no ettiquette expert either, and often feel a bit flummoxed in fancy restaurants. But what you describe is way off the charts. Can you have your guest read this post? You can pretend it wasn't you. Just say, "Hey, look, it's like they're describing our breakfast this morning. How funny!"
- p
Posted by Poet on February 7, 2004, at 16:08:10
In reply to table manners ... obsession?, posted by Medusa on February 7, 2004, at 7:49:50
Hi Medusa,
Lettuce is supposed to be shredded, not cut. Shredded into small enough pieces that don't require you to use a knife. Unless it's one of those trendy lettuce wraps, then you just eat it with your fingers like a sandwich. If you have to cut the lettuce, the salad was not properly prepared.
Beverages: no chewing ice or gulping so fast you sound make noises like a water cooler and sound like Curly of the Three Stooges. If the table is wood, all beverages are placed on coasters.
Bread and rolls are to be put on a plate, not on the table. Same with bones or shrimp tails.
Tablespoons and dinner forks used for serving are put back in the serving bowl or plate.
Messy food should be eaten over the plate, so crumbs and especially sauces that stain don't fall on the floor.
You may be horrified at this, but I grew up in a house where pets were fed from the table. I will put a plate on the floor for the cats, and let them lick it clean, but not in front of guests unless they have pets and do the same in their house.
Napkins: use them. I hate greasy fingerprints on wine glasses. I hate lipstick prints even more, but I can't require guests to buy the kind that doesn't rub off easily. Then again...
Poet
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 7, 2004, at 16:18:44
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession? » Medusa, posted by Poet on February 7, 2004, at 16:08:10
No this can't be!!!
i have never eaten a salad that didn't require some cutting????? nice resataurants, crappy resaurants.........all the same
are you possitive about this.
I am so upset!! I have commited a manners faux pau. :)
Posted by Elle2021 on February 7, 2004, at 16:38:36
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession? » Medusa, posted by Poet on February 7, 2004, at 16:08:10
Now, I don't consider myself an obsesser of table manners. In fact, I usually don't notice anyone's table manners until they start to bother me. I don't like it when people drink milk with a meal. I don't know why, but it totally grosses me out. Thats why, I never serve milk. Sodas, juices, water, but no milk.
Guests who chew ice do not bother me, provided they do not spit the excess chunks of ice back into the cup. That is GROSS.If I have a special wood table, that I would be particularly upset if someone spilled something on it, then I don't use it. I find that those cheap card tables work fine and look presentable with a table cloth over them. Of course, if you are having a dinner inside and your only table is the dinner table and thats the one you are particular about, then it is the hostess' job to put a plastic laminate over it to prevent staining. Guests should never feel uneasy, because they were invited after all.
> You may be horrified at this, but I grew up in a house where pets were fed from the table. I will put a plate on the floor for the cats, and let them lick it clean, but not in front of guests unless they have pets and do the same in their house.I do the same thing. The cats get the leftovers, although not to be consumed in front of the guests, lest they become suspicious about the cleanliness of the plates they are eating off of. When I am alone however, I feed the cats from the table. It doesn't bother me.
And yes...napkins should be abundant and easily attainable from any sitting place.
Elle
Posted by Poet on February 7, 2004, at 17:31:52
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession? » Poet, posted by dragonfly25 on February 7, 2004, at 16:18:44
Hi Dragonfly,
Lettuce in salads should absolutely never be cut or have to be cut in order to eat it. It should also be thoroughly dry then chilled before serving- so the leaves are crisp, not soggy.
I hate restaurants that take a head of iceburg and cut it in big chunks. Frankly, I'm a lettuce snob and think iceburg is for sandwiches or garnishes only. Give me romain or leaf, please. And dressing on the side, not globbed all over the salad to hide the condition of the lettuce.
My husband tells me I should be a salad critic, I wonder if it pays?
Poet
Posted by Poet on February 7, 2004, at 17:43:52
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession? » Medusa, posted by Poet on February 7, 2004, at 16:08:10
I should slap myself. Shredded would be like cole slaw. Lettuce in a proper salad is torn, not cut.
Poet
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 7, 2004, at 17:48:28
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession? » dragonfly25, posted by Poet on February 7, 2004, at 17:31:52
Hi Poet,
Wow, i really never new that it shouldn't be cut I hate being wrong. :( So I guess the problem is the salads in restaurants Not me :) they do serve big pieces sometimes, alot of times. I have salad issues as well, I am very particular.
thanks for the infodragonfly
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 7, 2004, at 17:53:40
In reply to I meant torn, not shredded for lettuce, posted by Poet on February 7, 2004, at 17:43:52
Poet i was going to say.......like those crappy fast food salads?? LOL, don't be too hard on yourself i used to cut my lettuce :D
(but NEVER when i *make* a salad (i tear) only when it is served to me)But wait...i am not sure now what to do if i get a really big piece of lettuce in a really posh restaurant?? do i cut it or ignore it and leave it on the plate....b/c now i am going to never be able to use a knife in my salad :)
Posted by fallsfall on February 7, 2004, at 18:11:18
In reply to u should be ashamed......... » Poet, posted by dragonfly25 on February 7, 2004, at 17:53:40
My favorite reference book about manners is "The Goops and how to be them".
The goops they lick their fingers,
The goops they lick their knives,
They spill their broth on the table cloth,
They lead disgusting lives.The goops they talk while eating,
And loud and fast they chew,
And that is why I'm glad that I
Am not a goop, are you?(I hope I got it right - that is from memory...)
Posted by gardenergirl on February 7, 2004, at 18:13:44
In reply to Manners explained, posted by fallsfall on February 7, 2004, at 18:11:18
Oh no, I must be a goop. Only because I am a clutz and tend to spill food on myself and on the table. I don't know how to avoid it short of taking teeny tiny bites or just not eating.
But I think I'm okay otherwise. Maybe I just need a bib or a big tarp.
gg
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 7, 2004, at 18:16:47
In reply to Manners explained, posted by fallsfall on February 7, 2004, at 18:11:18
that was cute!
Posted by Racer on February 7, 2004, at 18:21:17
In reply to table manners ... obsession?, posted by Medusa on February 7, 2004, at 7:49:50
That post nearly made me wet my pants, I laughed so much reading it. Glad I wasn't drinking anything at the time.
Now that I've gotten my breath back, though, I've got a few things to add to it -- but it's all in addition to the things you've already mentioned:
-- I broke up with a fiance once because of the way he ate. It reminded me of a shark: for example, when he ate a slice of pizza, half the slice would go into his mouth and (I kid not) his eyes would roll back! Social eating is not merely about shoveling food in, and manners exist as both a sign of respect, and a show of cooperation. That's why we're supposed to use better manners with our intimates than with strangers: as a sign that we care enough about them to be respectful.
-- Not using napkins properly. The napkin, in case any of the superior people here aren't yet aware, goes ON YOUR LAP. It does not get tucked into your collar, nor does it stay by the side of the plate. As a further note, in a restaurant, if the napkin is in the center of the place setting, or if silverware is tucked into a napkin on the table, best manners say you put that napkin -- no matter what fancy shape it's folded into -- on your lap when you sit down, not when the waiter is standing over you with your plate waiting until you get that same napkin out of the way.
-- Just because the restaurant provides toothpicks near the tables doesn't mean you really need to pick your teeth at the table.
-- Paper napkins, even at home, are to be used once and thrown away -- not left at your place at the table to be used again. That's what makes them *disposable.*
As for your guest, Medusa, all I can say is read Ogden Nash's Polterguest poem for comfort, and think of the royalties when you finish writing the book.
Posted by Medusa on February 8, 2004, at 1:24:41
In reply to u should be ashamed......... » Poet, posted by dragonfly25 on February 7, 2004, at 17:53:40
> But wait...i am not sure now what to do if i get a really big piece of lettuce in a really posh restaurant?? do i cut it or ignore it and leave it on the plate....b/c now i am going to never be able to use a knife in my salad :)
>Dragonfly, if I understood (clearly not internalized yet LOL) the guideline for this situation, the knife can be used to fold the piece of lettuce up into a manageable bite size.
This was in a pretty fancy, very small restaurant. I was alone ... confession time I guess: someone gave me a generous gift certificate, enough for two to have a 5-course dinner and wine. What I do though is go there at lunch once a month or so. I'm usually the only person in the restaurant (dinner is their main business but they open for lunch since they're preparing dinner anyway) and I ask the owner questions about how to eat things I've never seen before. I 'pay' with the gift certificate and leave an overly generous cash tip.
(Last time I was there, the owner asked me about my relationship to the person who gave me the certificate, and this really ticked me off - it felt like an indiscretion. She also chatted a LOT, and I just wanted quiet. So once I've used up the gift, I'll still go back for difficult appetizers, but will find another place to practice.)
So I ran into the salad 'faux pas' because I'd set myself up to practice, but it was still embarrassing. Even between countries similar to each other, there are big differences in table manners ... in France, the bread +does+ go on the table in even some pretty nice places. Napkins are never placed back on the table, but on the chair - whereas in the states I'm pretty sure I learned that cloth napkins were to be left on the table beside the plate at the end of the meal.
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 5:58:37
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession? » dragonfly25, posted by Poet on February 7, 2004, at 17:31:52
Well, here in the UK it is perfectly acceptable to have whole lettuce leaves as a garnish.. Most of the rather fancy restaurants I have been to (including one with 2 Michalin stars) use whole leaves from their lettuce (never ice burg though.. more like rodaccio or how ever it is spelt and lambs foot etc)
When having a dinner party I often serve the starter (normally somekind of baked cheese - its my speciality!!) on a bed of lettuce and never chop it up. It would look totally wrong if not in whole leaves.
Hang on.. OK, called my friend who is a chef in a rather trendy London restaurant.. nope, he's never heard this either!!!
Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 6:00:14
In reply to u should be ashamed......... » Poet, posted by dragonfly25 on February 7, 2004, at 17:53:40
*giggling*
I fold my lettuce.. use knife and form to fold it into a decent size, so I eat it WHOLE, the WHOLE leaf *knows there must be people shuddering all over the world at my huge faux pas"*
Folding is the way to go!!
Nikki xx
Posted by Rach on February 8, 2004, at 6:36:16
In reply to table manners ... obsession?, posted by Medusa on February 7, 2004, at 7:49:50
OMG! My ex boyfriend suddenly flew across the world to have breakfast with Medusa. (we broke up Sunday).
I would make enough food for our dinner and a few days worth of lunch to take to work. He would eat the entire amount in one sitting.
His only way of chewing was NOISY! And he would smack his lips every third or fourth chew, and open his mouth wide. He told me once it was to prevent the swallowing of air. It was the most foul noise & sight I've ever witnessed.
He never knew how to savour food. Food was to be bolted, not enjoyed. Chocolate would be swallowed whole. I attempted to teach him how to let things 'melt in his mouth'. He never got it. A shovel wouldn't have been enough volume wise and a motorised arm couldn't have gotten the food in fast enough.
Then don't even get me started on the state of his dishes before cooking, let alone after...
As to lettuce, I guess I've always folded if possible, but sometimes you get a piece impossible to fold - like stiff cos or something. Then, I suppose I have to admit, I've used the knife to cut. Oh dear! :)
Posted by Medusa on February 8, 2004, at 7:08:35
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession?, posted by Rach on February 8, 2004, at 6:36:16
> I would make enough food for our dinner and a few days worth of lunch to take to work. He would eat the entire amount in one sitting.
>Rach, you make this almost funny!
I had several never-got-serious boyfriends who thought they had to consume everything I'd cooked. Problem is, like you, I was planning on leftovers. They'd finish everything - and one would complain that I'd made "too much".
(Screaming and tearing hair out here ... it was never funny when it happened, I was always strained for time and money and these guys just trod all over both. I've learned now to defend my territory better, but where do people get the idea they can behave like this?)
I guess in dating around some, I got better at picking up on early food-related signals that things would not work and should not be attempted. One guy chopped up all of his food into smaller-than-bite-size pieces before beginning to eat. The same guy asked me to picnic with him in a park, but refused to do pot-luck - he vehemently insisted that we each bring our own. Was he potty-trained with a gun to his head?
> to prevent the swallowing of air.WOW, gotta remember this one ...
> He never knew how to savour food. Food was to be bolted, not enjoyed. Chocolate would be swallowed whole. I attempted to teach him how to let things 'melt in his mouth'. He never got it. A shovel wouldn't have been enough volume wise and a motorised arm couldn't have gotten the food in fast enough.
>I'm not trimming the above, because it expresses the phenomenon so well. Reading it, I laugh, cringe, and am sad all at once.
> like stiff cos or something. Then, I suppose I have to admit, I've used the knife to cut. Oh dear! :)
>I wonder if it's preferable to use the fork to cut this? Maybe Nikki'll tell us?
Rach, good for you for breaking up with the boor. (Boar?)
Posted by Medusa on February 8, 2004, at 7:10:58
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession? » Poet, posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 5:58:37
for checking up on this.
> Hang on.. OK, called my friend who is a chef in a rather trendy London restaurant.. nope, he's never heard this either!!!
>
Hey, if your chef friend ever happens to share guest-faux-pas stories with you and you're inclined to pass them on, I'd love to hear and accept all advance admonition.
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 8, 2004, at 7:19:00
In reply to IIRC » dragonfly25, posted by Medusa on February 8, 2004, at 1:24:41
Hi Medusa,
<Dragonfly, if I understood (clearly not internalized yet LOL) the guideline for this situation, the knife can be used to fold the piece of lettuce up into a manageable bite size.
Really! OMG, I am so upset about this, how could this one have slipped right past me? I have being eating rudely for years.....although it is only some pieces i have to cut....so i will have to fold from know on.
OK now i want to know if anyone knows WHY this is the rule, why can't you cut, I thought folding was rude? For someone who is so into manners this is quite devastating :) (i am so embarrassed)LOLdragonfly
What does IIRC mean?
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 8, 2004, at 7:24:28
In reply to Re: u should be ashamed......... » dragonfly25, posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 6:00:14
I am feeling very out numbered here LOL
This is sounding universal- except in my word :) (But I will definately spread the word), I wonder though....maybe I am the only one doing it. (gasps) :D
Do you know why folding is the way to go?Dragonfly
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 8, 2004, at 7:30:15
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession?, posted by Rach on February 8, 2004, at 6:36:16
YAY!!!!!! I feel so much better now :)
that is so gross and hilarios about your ex boyfriend. I have seen people eat like that, ALOT in fact and I don't get it???? Do they not know it is unattractive?
Dragonfly
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 8, 2004, at 7:34:46
In reply to you're killing me! » Rach, posted by Medusa on February 8, 2004, at 7:08:35
<I wonder if it's preferable to use the fork to cut this? Maybe Nikki'll tell us?
OK here it goes.............I am worried though, in case I once again am way off.
You shouldn't cut with the fork, ever. I'll be waiting for the reply to this one (holding my breath)
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